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The Future of Tax Software on Linux?
mengel asks: "So this last week, I repeated my annual ritual of
trashing my scratch partition, making a FAT filesystem on it, booting Microsoft Windows(tm),
and installing tax software to do my taxes.
I had hoped, with the advent of Xandros, and of Linspire (formerly Lindows), that one of these increasingly important commercial companies would have talked someone like Intuit, or the Tax Cut guys, into developing this years tax software against Wine, so that it would also run on Linux under Wine as well as on MSWindows. So what has to happen before the companies who write Tax Cut and TurboTax will do versions that least run under Wine, much less native Linux versions? What can we do to help make that happen?"
"Tax Preparation is the only reason I boot MSWindows anymore, and each year it gets more arduous, as soon I'm going to be forced to upgrade the MSWindows partition to XP, just as a few years ago I had to upgrade from MSWindows 3.1 to MSWindows 98 -- so in effect my tax software costs me double, because I keep getting forced to buy a newer MSWindows upgrade every 3 years or so as well as the tax software."
I ran the online version of TurboTax just fine on my Gentoo box running Firebird/fox.
When you get to hell -- tell 'em Itchy sent ya!
"I'm the tuxman. Yeaheh, I'm the tuxman...."
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
You can do this on the web, using either the Tax Cut software on the web provided by H&R Block, or go to Yahoo and use their TurboTax service. There are probably others too.
\/\/oobie
um, pay more taxes?
I hope I didn't brain my damage.
Tax Cut for the Web lists Netscape 6+7 as supported browsers, so it should work fine with Mozilla/Firebird.
I tried this a few times and went back to Windows tax calculation. No matter how I calculated it with the Linux version, I always ended up paying $699 more than with comparable Windows tax software scenarios.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Why do people buy windows software to do their taxes? I just pay the $30 (I have to do the long form and some schedules) and use TurboTax for the web every year - it allows me to do my taxes on my Sun Rays (Solaris/Mozilla) as well as my linux machine at work (linux/mozilla). And I can stop at any point and come back to it later on a different computer. It's amazingly easy and it doesn't make me (1) buy physical software packages; or (2) steal a neighbor's windows machine for the few hours it takes me to do my taxes.
I did not design this game/I did not name the stakes/I just happen to like apples/And I am not afraid of snakes-AniD
It beats me why an individual taxpayer who knows anything about programming would use tax prep software. I did my taxes by hand, along with separate state and federal returns for each of my three kids, in less than the time it took you to set up a Windows environment and get the software running.
Anybody who can follow instructions like "subtract the lesser of lines 14 and 16 from line 18 and enter the result on line 21" would be better off following the hacker creed and doing it themself.
Don't forget TuxCat for the Web.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Use Linux. Insist on Linux software and *buy* it when it's available.
There's no conspiracy here-- those companies do MacOS ports because Mac users make it worth their while. As long as the US desktop Linux base remains tiny and as long as most of those users can dual-boot and are willing to buy the software, what's the value for them? Especially since you know the remaining Linux core is a) going to complain that it doesn't run on Gentoo or LFS, b) berate them for not making the whole thing open-source and c) too cheap to pay for it anyway.
There is one huge upside, in that there will *never* be a good free alternative, so if a userbase exists, products will emerge.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
So what has to happen before the companies who write Tax Cut and TurboTax will do versions that least run under Wine, much less native Linux versions? What can we do to help make that happen?
The companies need to believe that they will make money if they release versions for Linux. Currently, there just aren't enough users who only use Linux to encourage tax program companies to devote resources to making compatible versions available.
Also, consider the Linux culture, which generally eschews proprietary software. It's pretty much impossible for a tax preparation sw company to release its source code, so you'd have to use binaries. That could lead to compatibility problems between different variants of Linux. The thing is, if you write an application for Windows, you mostly only have to worry about writing it for two flavors of Windows: 95/2000 and XP. It's a known quantity. At this point, most companies just have to change the rules from the previous years, and can keep most of the GUI and interfaces intact.
Right now, there are some 25 million Mac users (supposedly) in the US, and there's one (TurboTax) preparation software application available to them. I'm guessing there's far fewer than 100,000 users in the US who use Linux and a Linux-based desktop exclusively in their home, and a great many of these people use the Linux desktop because they don't want to spend any money on an OS. <joke>A good portion still live in their parent's basement, and don't have much of an income to speak of.</joke> All considered, 100,000 is a very low number.
Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
#1
I did the TurboTax software on the web. Doesn't it work under a Linux browser?
#2
Wouldn't it be easier just to have a tax preparer do them for $40, or is your time worth that little?
Each year I use Windows for one thing, taxes. and each year I print out way more just in case I need to check a document, I wont have to go through the windows trouble. I've been lucky enough that I have had access to windows systems so far. But this year was probably the last that will be the case. Every year I also tell Intuit (via there registration and/or other feedback) that I would prefer a Linux solution.
I am as much a free software zealot as the next guy, as a matter of fact this is one of the few areas I would probably disagree with RMS on, I will be the first in line to purchase a tax solution for linux. - It is probably one of the last areas where there is literally NOTHING to compete with the windows platform, not even a substandard work in progress.
I understand the web based solutions, but would really prefer a standalone app if only for illogical person preference reasons.
I was going to actually pay the extra money for TurboTax for Mac, figuring if that was the cost of avoiding Bill's monopoly, I better put my money where my mouth is.
Then I came across TaxAct, which is much cheaper than either TurboTax or TaxCut. I almost caved in to spend money on the Windows version, because they let you download a free version where you only pay when you file, but I couldn't get it to run under Wine or WineX.
Their online version worked great with Mozilla 1.4. My federal and state returns, both with efiling, cost me $18 total. A very good price.
My son's 5th grade teacher actually assigned them "write a limerick about a planet". I'm not kidding.
I just went to the CCRA website and went through an online efiling. I found out about this cool site. Since I made less than $25,000 CDN last year (being a student and all), it was even free.
Works quite well in Mozilla.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Normally, every year at tax time, I would browse on over to TurboTax.com to use TurboTax for the web, which seemed to work just fine under Linux. Unfortunatley, this year they finally decided to start denying access to users without an "accepted browser". Up until this point, I had been very happy with TurboTax for the web. I briefly considered writing a tax return preparation package for Linux, but then decided I should probably just do my taxes ASAP because it was Apr. 14.
So, I went to Google to search for "Linux tax return software", and not finding anything of worth that was free, decided to try TaxCut.com (a part of H & R Block). They had a web based version, and it seems to be working fine with Linux and Mozilla. However, I wonder how long it will be until it doesn't, and I'm reminded of my dream: to never have to use another piece of non-free (as in speech) software again, including being able to file my taxes online under Linux.
I would still seriously like to start work on tax preparation software, but I wouldn't know where to begin, and even if I did, I don't have the time. I figure, maybe I could take courses to become a certified public accountant, try to get on the inside track for accounting and tax codes, but again time is an issue.
Anyway, that's just my story; if anyone else has the gumption to actually start a tax preparation program for Linux, let me know. I may not have the time to work on it, but I'd definitely be interested in testing and donating what little time I do have to it.
Nathan's blog
> on my Gentoo box running Firebird/fox
Ditto. I've used TurboTax online for the past four years, always from a Linux box. Other than how the price jumped $10 from the $59.90 of last year, I have no complaints. In fact, this time around the application works without any hitches under Firebird/fox, unlike the odd occasional hitches of the past.
I've done my taxes by hand before; as others note, it's really not that hard. That said, it'd have been tough to finish the entire return, federal and state, in 90 minutes flat as I did last night without a computer.
Speaking of which, here's how to ease the pain of tax season:
The above steps are of course not revolutionary, but it's remarkable how so few people will actually follow them and thus self-inflict enormous pain every April.
Why not use the online versions? The software's pretty much worthless once you've done your taxes anyway, since you'll have to buy the new version next year for the new tax laws.
.pdf, print hardcopies to store, etc. So it's not like you're relying on them to save your records, even.
Online, once you either print or e-file, you can save a copy of the return as a
If you're getting a big enough refund to be anxious about it, your are already doing your taxes wrong by having too much withheld. You should adjust your withholding (allowances) so you get the money in your paycheck rather than in the form of a tax refund.
You're better off owing $100 or less on April 15th than overwithholding all year and then figuring out how to get that refund a few days faster.
As for the simple math required on the tax forms, what a lame excuse! Get an $18 printing calculator. Go over the numbers twice. The IRS will check your calculations and correct them anyway, and in that case you have a fifty-fifty chance of getting a reduction or increase in taxes. For small discrepancies resulting from arithmetic errors you won't get into any trouble, they'll just send a refund or a bill -- don't you think they get LOTS of those already?
If you're going to defend the big refund by saying that it's a great way to save, it's not. Set up an auto-withdraw savings plan with your bank, credit union, or U.S. Treasury in the form of savings bonds. Overwithholding is just an interest-free loan to the government, and then when the "windfall" check comes you're probably going to blow it rather than save it anyway.
I did my taxes by hand this year, and then via a web-preparation thingee. I'm a smart guy, and a programmer, and I found the forms easy to fill out.
I got $1200 more using the program than I did filling out the forms manually. I think it made a lot of this difference by transferring some elegible deductions from my wife's return to mine (as her part of the return actually got smaller). Perhaps I should have known which I could do this with, but I didn't.
Add to this that the total time to use the program was about 15 minutes, whereas getting the forms done manually took about 2 hours - and I think I'll go straight to the $20 option next year.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
Taxes are for little people - Leona Helmsley.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
I used the webapp version. No headaches. No bloody Windows. Cheaper than a retail box, with more
functionality too.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
The current Brazilian government's love for Free Software gave us a nice surprise this year by providing a nice Java app with which we can declare our anual taxes on several platforms. Until last year we had to chose between using a Windows app or using paper forms. Gee, I just realized that the Receita Federal site (our IRS equivalent) is made on plone. How nice!
Gustavo.
Actually if you met certain criteria, you could go from the IRS site straight to a free provider (they usually charge for the state).
I used TaxAct online, too, based on the recommendations here.
I had a couple of scares.
I entered my W2 and a first swat at my Federal and state 1040s on 4/12. I intended to eFile on 4/14. When I tried to log in the evening of 4/14 at around 19:30 Central, the web site was not responding. I banged at it with FireFox for an hour or so before it came up. I gotta guess they had an outage under the load. Once it answered it responded perfectly well for as long as a needed to gather my data and finish and file.
I paid for eFile service on my US and state 1040s. They had a message up saying if you got it in by 5 PM Central on 4/15 the returns would be sent on time.
This morning 4/16 I got an email that my state eFile was rejected. The state department of revenue responded that a return for my SSN had already been filed. I panicked, thinking that some fraudster had filed for a refund under my SSN. I called the state and with a bit of effort got through to a rep who checked and said TaxAct had eFiled my return twice. I was relieved that all was well. I don't think it was me who filed twice.
I later got an email notice that the Feds accepted my return.
It's also a worry that they don't ackowlege the filing until it's after 4/15 so you can't do anything at that point to get it in on time. I guess that's the nature of the eFile system. In my case I had paid the state online with a credit card and had a refund from the feds so I wouldn't had had a late filing penalty.In spite of all this I think I'll use TaxAct online next year. Next year they'll already have my data.
BTW, when I checked out the "Why it's secure" notice on H&R Block's online tax prep site, it said it was safe because it uses SSL. I think they're a little unclear on the "safe" concept. I need to know my 1040 can't copied by a Lamo doing a reverse proxy.
Ok, several people have mentioned thinking about starting a tax prep software project for Linux.
Question: why does it have to be that hard? Take it in stages, with low goals.
For next year, make a program that can fill out a 1040EZ. That should be dirt simple, and useful for a few people.
For the next year, make it able to fill out and calculate a 1040A.
For the next year, make it do a 1040 with one or two of the most common schedules. I'd recommand Schedule D for stock transactions, since several of us geeks do that on occasion.
Even a basic 1040 and schedule D is not rocket science, though the D calculations on paper can be a pain in the arse. Still, I've done it by hand several years. It's not that big a deal, but a little Linux program to help would be great.
Oh, and do it in Python. That would make it even easier. There is NO reason to do this kind of stuff in C or C++. And be sure to store all values in integer variables, probably as the value * 100, or maybe * 1000, so that all calculations use integer arithmetic.
I think she was using TurboTax (or something that was Windows-based) but at least I (and all her customers) didn't buy or need to use TurboTax directly. Thus we did not support/aid/abet the Windows platform with a Windows software purchase. Sure she's using Windows, but every customer she has dilutes the value and market for TurboTax sales and indirectly Windows. That should satisfy any Linux political agenda anyone might have, and eliminate the need to boot up Windows.
Self-sufficiency is not always desirable, necessary or cost-effective.
Just give me time :)
... and I am personally terrible with money (no wonder I am so dangerously in debt).
:)
Is it difficult? Is it complex?
I just emailed an accountant main client of mine.
Been doing lil apps/webapps/macros for him for ages.
But I have no knowledge (at all) of tax software, what they do, how it works
Should I do it GPL, should I make it proprietory?
I mean, I wouldn't feel guilty receiving money from bankers, solicitors and accountants
I need a lead, I will wait for his email
But the app will be UK version - (do they change much?).
Message me with ideas, if you want, I am serious.
The only thing stopping me from doing it - if its way highly complex (for one person to make).
Hope it works out cos I love doing real apps and this one will be in Linux (way too cool).
The basic logic of the 1040, schedule SE, etc. changes very little from year to year; usually all I have to do is plug in different values for standard deductions and exemptions (I have a data-entry cell for each of these) to make them current. So every year I merely type in my W-2 data and a few other bits that apply to my situation (e.g. college tuition credit), copy and paste the year-end revenue/expense totals from my moonlight consulting, hand-scribble the resulting numbers (including autocalc'ed subtotals) into the various spots where they belong (using scanned copies of last year's forms as a reference to find spots I need), then find my final tax in the big table in the instruction booklet. The same set of entries also feeds into the sections for my state and local forms. I spend nearly as long scanning the completed forms when I'm done as I do filling them out. If I had a really complicated tax situation it might be worthwhile to hire an accountant or use a commercial app rather than trying to model it all myself, but I have models of the forms I need, so this works fine for me.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
according to one accountant:
.. (bok! bok!)
>will be very difficult
>lots of rules
So I will chicken out
... which is this: why should we have to buy Tax preparation software in the first place? What's wrong with our Tax system that it has to be this complex? Or if it must be complex, why doesn't the IRS (who has to cope with end results on an efile) just write a front-end client that can be distributed for free? It would have to be cheaper for the government than what they have now.
Of course that would cut into the business models of the tax preparers and tax software manufacturers, so I guess it isn't really feasible, is it?
We call it art because we have names for the things we understand.