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Reasonable Salary for Entry Level Programmers?
An anonymous reader asks: "I will be graduating from college in May with a degree in computer science. I have begun the job search and gone on a few interviews. So far I have gotten two job offers which I am thankful for, but the salary seems low. I am not saying that I am too good to pay my dues and work my way up, but I could make more waiting tables. It is somewhat distressing that I have spent 4 years of college and years before that developing my programming skills. I am not trying to get rich, but I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something(no offense intended to waiters). Can anyone give me any insight about what a reasonable starting salary would be, for an entry level software engineer?"
Ill be graduating in May as well and the range Ive seen is 45k to 55k
This is how the real world works.. you arent worth a damned thing until you can prove yourself. That takes time and persistance.
And no, '4 years of college' doesnt prove you are worth anything. It proves you can learn, but not much more.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Salary Wizard.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics keeps this sort of data, though possibly with some significant lag time.
Try looking at: http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm.
While you could make more waiting tables, as you say, you won't be gathering experince in the process. I'm a sysadmin... have been for 10+ years. It was around year 2 or 3 of experience that I was able to make a salary jump... actually, right after year 3 of experience, my salary doubled. Before being a sysadmin, I drove two trucks. Driving tow trucks paid better. But had I kept driving tow trucks and not moved to computers, I'd be making roughly 25% more now than when I started. And therw wouldn't have been a "3 year, double my salary" opportunity. Sometimes the temporary sacrafice has the long term payoff.
BTW and FYI: you're in a very competitive market right now. Many development jobs are going overseas and there are a lot of developers with a lot more experience than you have that are looking for work right now. Many have been out of work so long, they'd gladly take the meager offers you're getting. Consider yourself lucky and take an offer. If a better one comes along within 3 months, take it.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
$20 an hour is what I've seen. It's enough to live on and actually support a family.
The truth about Lindows
if you are in the US.
Go to your local employment dept.
They should have many programs to help you, like resume writing, interviewing techniques, how to negotiate, anf they are free.
You can also get a list of average salaries for your area, as well as have networking opportunities.
Also, decide what is important to you:
What your are programming
or
the company you work for.
Now, lets say what you want is a large company, where you will work a pretty regular scedule, 40-50 hours a week.
Call the HR dept. for the appropriet company, and ask for an Informational interview' with a manager in the appropriet dept., or with an HR person who deals with the IT staff.
When you get one, show up.
you are not interviewing for a job..directly.
Ask questions like, what skills are they loking for. what would a Jr. programmer expect to make, there turnover rate, etc.
Then send them a thank you card.
Follow up a month later.
If this doesn't get you an interview, it will at least give you information you can use to direct your career.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I've had this problem in my recent recruiting adventures. What I found to be the most correct assumption is that if you are looking for a simple programming job, it won't pay much.
If you search for a job as a software engineer (which you should be prepared for given a 4 year cs degree), the starting salary should be much higher.
I've recently interviewed for two positions at the same company. The software engineering position paid signifigantly better than the programmer and one of the recruiters and I joked about the likelyhood that the programmer would eventually get outsourced.
This seems to be a pretty common thread in American companies. Programmers, in the view of corporate America, add lines of code. Software engineers add value, and are much harder to repalce and ofter make much more. Who are you going to replace? Someone who writes codes ``head-down'' all day, or someone who designs the product, meets with customers, documents and eventually programmes?
I make $45K in LA, and let me tell you, supporting a family on that in SoCal is hard. We pay almost $1000 for a one bedroom apartment in a safe (but not luxurious) neighborhood, where my wife and I live with our toddler and our infant. Things are tight out here; I had to move from San Diego to get this job, and one of my co-workers moved from Silicon Valley. The salary range actually topped out at $40K but the wanted the skillset I was bringing to the table badly enough to come up the extra five. Asking for forty to fifty when the salary range topped out at forty was maybe risky, but I believe they would either go for it or at the worst hire me for forty. They went for it, and that extra five thousand really helps.
Now, if a person lives in, say, Iowa, or Utah, or, really, a lot of places other than California, then $45K is not bad at all. But around here, it's not easy.
Exactly, it's not like they are THAT hard to find...
l larssense,00.html
For instance, in Australia:
Here's an EXCELLENT resource at... gee... the most popular job search site in Australia, took me all of 5 minutes to track down:
http://careerone.com.au/resources/index/0,8526,do
If you can't be bothered to look up these things, then I don't think you deserve to know... or get paid much.
$20/hour can mean a lot of different things. If it is a unionized government job with benefits in a low cost of living area-it wouldn't be too bad. I can easily see how that wouldn't go far in New York City or Silicon Valley-even for a single guy.
I went to a State College in Mass, and the foreign students paid 3 - 4 times what domestic students paid. Plus out of state students paid double what Mass students.
I have a very small mind and must live with it.
-- E. Dijkstra
Yahoo's Neighborhood Profiles section, searchable by zip code, has lots of nice data if you're pricing a job.
Grrr.
Without the Amazon-referer whoring:
I do not know the position that you are seeking to apply, but if you are looking for any engineering position with a 4 year bachelor's degree in something like engineering or the sciences, you would get about $55,000 at HP (starting salary).
I've heard that Intel pays a little more, but maybe not more than $60k.
It would really depend on how much experience you have, what is it that you are looking for, the area you seek to work in and your degree.
One thing I forgot: if you have loans, morgages, or credit card dept that carry intest, you want to pay that off ASAP before investing. (Obviously if you can get 7% per year investing and the intrest on your credit card is 15% it makes sense to pay it off first; but some people don't see this....)
The policy of the United States is worse than bad---it is insane. -- Ludwig von Mises, Economic Policy(1959)
As an Intelligence geek for the AF, I feel I should throw my two cents in here.
:)
If you do want to be an intel geek, go officer. They have a pretty awesome responsibility, and plus- you're an officer! (Better pay, more of an opportunity to actually use your critical thinking and analysis skills) The AF Specialty Code (AFSC) for that is 14N (that'll come in handy when talking to a recruiter)
If you want to be enlisted (perish the thought with a college degree!!), here's a brief description of the fields:
1N0 - Briefers. These guys have to know a ton, and do some fairly cool planning stuff.
1N1 - Imagery (what's that blob mean??)
1N2 - Morse-Code... I don't reccommend this job, as it's being phased out, and just lost it's entire signing bonus
1N3 - Linguist - learn to speak Arabic, Chineese, or a plethora of other ("enemy") languages
1N4 - Intel Analyist... I'm not really sure what these guys do, but I'm told it's important!
1N5 - "Electronic Signals Explotation Operative"... This is what I do- basically the study/explotation of RADAR systems
1N6 - "Systems Security".... like reading peoples' email and then ratting them out for violating security proceedures?? That's what these people do!
In short, About.com is a great resource to use when thinking about joining the military... There's a lot of "minor" things recruiters leave out, so be sure to do your homework first!
Furthermore, when you're waiting for a clearance, expect to wait a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time. Especially if it's a Top Secret one. Some bases will let you work with an Interim (temporary) clearance, and some won't... If the base you end up at is in the latter category, expect to be waiting over a year, doing nothing related to your job.
-Jokerghost
I thought the US was supposed to have low taxes! You're talking of an average tax rate of 33%. I'm earning a lot more than that but living in Canada... my average tax rate is 26%, although the marginal rate has topped out at 43%. I felt like I was getting a better deal when I moved here from the States, now you've confirmed it! To think my taxes actually include something useful like decent health care.
Pay off credit cards before investing, yes. Pay off mortgages, no, not really. In general the tax advantages of mortgages outweigh the benefits of paying off early. Basically, when your mortgage is paid off, your equity (ownership) is tied up in your house. Which you can't really access unless you SELL your house. Have a reasonable mortgage you can afford and then invest the rest in stocks or funds. Hell, if your house is already paid off, get another mortgage and invest the cash in stocks! You can generally get a mortgage for about 7%, and if you're halfway awake you can get at least 10% from stocks.
I don't know your situation (obviously) but page 13 of that same report mentions that Canada's "Tax Freedom day" - the day that the average Canadian has earned enough to pay all of the taxes for that year - in 2003 fell in the 178th day of the year, June 27th. That's even worse than Britain's "TFD", which will be on the 163th day of the year, June 11th. Contrast that with the US "TFD", which was on April 11th. So the US tax rates are lower than Canada's after al - lower by a couple of months!
Of course, they are all still way too high. Even God Almighty only asks for a tithe.
"Lord, grant that I may always be right, for Thou knowest that I am hard to turn" -- A Scots-Irish prayer
You're talking of an average tax rate of 33%.
YEP!! and that's just payroll. Then we get to the fun taxes like sales, property, gas, electricity, telephone, natural gas, cable, capital gains, interest, inventory, self-employment, county, city, vehicle registration, vehicle insurance, etc.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
The national average for all "white-collar/technical" professions is $27.15/hour ($56k). However, in most metro areas, it is around $30 ($62k). Out of college, you should expect about 15% less than average or between $48k and $52k with some prior experience--although many, many people will be more than happy to offer you $26.5k. The point is, you should be able to hit the mean within three years. Don't let ANYONE tell you otherwise. If you are offered less than 15% below the aggregate mean (that is, everyone, not just IT) for your area, laugh hysterically as they watch your ass walk out the door. In most metro areas, that's about $45k, so 15% less is about $19/hour. Really, it's quite therapeutic and they deserve it. Another nice rule-of-thumb is if the salary is less than you paid for tuition, move on. If you went to a school like Georgetown that routinely offers jobs requiring master's degrees for $27k, which is less than a single year of undergrad tuition, you know what I'm talking about.
Look here to get detailed information on actual wages in your area:
http://www.bls.gov/ncs/ocs/home.htm
Yeah, planning for the future, what a crackpot.
Anything could happen in 40 years, including your death ...
The average lifespan in the US is in the mid-70's. I assume he intends to at least make average (I personally intend to live forever: so far, so good).
At least then you wouldn't need to be fiscally responsible.
And besides, $100 a month is not small change ...
No kidding dude, thats, like, 20 lattes.
Seriously though.
$100.00 per month.
40 years.
5% return.
You will have $152,602.02 at the end.
Really. Don't you just love compound interest?
Best Slashdot comment ever
$20.00 an hour is a GOOD salary for a fresh programmer out of college in the midwest. It's below starting in the vally.
I.E. the amount you mentioned is a worthless number... it depends on the area you live.
$20.00 an hour in the upper midwest a single guy can live pretty rich, yet you will qualify for foodstamps and not afford anything in the valley.
I suggest that the person asking do some real research and find the real rates... many temp agencies or staffing companies have salary sheets for the US that shows the metro areas and what they make.
I would make another $10.00 an hour if I moved 200 miles east to detriot. and an additional $15.00 if I moved west to chicago..
but then my cost of living will increase by the same amount. my $90,000.00 home will cost $160,000.00 in a detroit suburb and $240,000.00 in a good chicago suburb.
I make less than $20.00 an hour and can afford 2 homes (one on a lake) and new cars (sane new cars) every 4 years plus I can buy crap whenever I want.
in chicago, I could barely afford the house payment alone.
the amount of money you make is much less important than the area you live in. $100.00 for groceries for a family of 3 for two weeks and gasoline at $1.71 a gallon while everyone else is closer to the $2.00 mark and nice homes realistically priced compared to overinflated prices near "popular" metro areas.
I'd rather make my $19.50 an hour here than making $40.00 an hour in California... I have more fun here.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The biggest advantage you have of owning a place free and clear is that banks will bend over backwards to loan you money against that property. With a house you own outright, you can invest in other properties with the flexibility of buying those properties for cash. (Remember, you're using cash from a mortgage on your first house.)
This is a best of both worlds scenario, because now you're carrying one loan, but own two houses. AND since the investment property isn't carrying the loan (its against your residence) you don't get screwed for the "investor's premium" of 1.5-2% that lenders normally charge for mortgages on "investment property." Plus you're in a better position to negotiate when buying, since your offer contains no financing contingencies and consists of 100% cash.
Who did what now?