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Reasonable Salary for Entry Level Programmers?
An anonymous reader asks: "I will be graduating from college in May with a degree in computer science. I have begun the job search and gone on a few interviews. So far I have gotten two job offers which I am thankful for, but the salary seems low. I am not saying that I am too good to pay my dues and work my way up, but I could make more waiting tables. It is somewhat distressing that I have spent 4 years of college and years before that developing my programming skills. I am not trying to get rich, but I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something(no offense intended to waiters). Can anyone give me any insight about what a reasonable starting salary would be, for an entry level software engineer?"
I came out of school in 2000 (I heard the .com bubble go "pop" as I got my diploma), for 'bout 50k. Depends on your skillset and attitude.
Be aware that you'll do better (bosses who like you and your work give better raises) if, in addition to tech skills, you show critical thinking and responsibility.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
How many people graduated with you? How many other schools graduated as many, or more people at the same time? How many programming jobs do you think exist? Granted, this number is growing, but still. As an electrical engineering major, I can tell that at least half the people that graduate aren't worth having in a company. They just don't retain knowledge and apply it well. Why should a company assume you're worth more money? You're going to have to prove yourself to them. For all they know, you're the guy like my lab partner, who did no design on a major project, built none of it, and wrote 4 of a final report when I asked him to write six. Of his four pages, I totally rewrote one, made him rewrite one, and had to correct all his others. One of the mechanical engineers that I work with has a resume that would impress people at NASA and JPL, but in reality, he knows very little. Considering the number of graduates who know very little these days, I think you should be happy for a job. Besides, you ought to take one based on what you'll be doing, not so much how much money you'll make. With a CS degree, those dreams of high salaries you had going into college faded while you were there. Work your way, and be happy with it.
while it seems like the dotcom craze is over, we are really still at the dawn of what the internet and personal computers can do... it will be decades before this tech has realized it's full potential and the arc of innovation wanes and computers/ internet become just another commodity like the cotton gin or the radio
therefore, within the span of your lifetime, there is much impact you can make on this world, personally, and of course, financially
so after you come home from your thankless soul-sucking underpaid 9-5 existence, don't forget to tinker with the very sparks of imagination which got you interested in computers in the first place
someone reading slashdot right now, either you, me, or someone else, will probably be making a contribution to mankind in the field of computer science which will forever alter humanity, and perhaps make that person fabulously rich... but that's an afterthought
your prime motivation should be happiness, not money
no six figure slary is worth self-hatred
don't give up on any of the things that got you interested in computers in the first place just because you can't seem to find your happiness in a cubicle
you will never be happy working for someone else, you will only be happy pursuing your own interests
so think of your job as something to keep your brain cells well-exercised, and something that keeps food in the refridgerator, and therefore you won't look to your salary as some end-all justification for your existence
your job will forever be little more than just a means to an ends, unless you yourself are deadset on making your life little more than what your employer decides you are worth, and that would be a sad day indeed
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Assuming you are single, and just out of collge, and still willing to share an apartment to keep costs down, take any job offering $30k or more, AND is something you are interested in or could see a future in. In other words don't get hung up on salary alone, but consider what you want to do with your career and what you want to do. If you don't know exactly what you want to do with your skills, consider jobs that might offer a variety of opportunity. Remember, like any job, there will be pluses and minuses and you might have to reall look to see what the opportunities are.
As for the money, remember the dot com days are over, and paying your bills while getting your career going is not a bad way to start in the "real world".
They can suck you into the 80 hour week at any salary. Likewise, many $50k plus people are adept at avoiding the 80 hour work week. You only get 45 hours of work done in an 80 hour week anyway.
I really would be looking more at the company and projects than the salary. If the company is full of people making good money, then you will likely get good raises.
Employers look for progression in your salary. Going in low and getting a good raise in the first year can really jump start a resume. Leaving without a good raise makes you look bad.
So, if it looks like a company pays well, then going in low is a wise choice.
Considering that professors can often get grad students to work for free, it looks like someone in that university is pulling strings and doing one of their friends a favor by hiring you (a HS student) for pay. Take full advantage of the opportunity.
As for the original poster talking about entry level programming jobs: "Whatever the market will bear is fair".
Jobs are like relationships. It's always easier to get a new job offer when you've already got an existing job -- even a crappy one.
If you're working at Foocorp, a hiring manager at Barcorp knows you must be worth something (or Foocorp wouldn't have hired you) - and he also knows that you must be interested in Barcorp (because you've already got a job at Foocorp, so you're interviewing for reasons that go beyond "I'm unemployed and need food").
Same thing applies in relationships -- ChickFoo obviously digs your stuff, and that makes your stuff more interesting to ChickBar. (No, I'm not gonna let myself write that as "BarChick" :)
skill is the application of knowledge. A degree is proof of knowledge, and thus proof of possibility of skill, which is much more certain than someone with no degree. Even so, I think you're just being flippant.
Of course, someone with 10 years of experience would have the most demostrated ability which is why those persons make the most money.
-Ryan
AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
Oh please. Unless you are Ivy League, nobody bumps your salary because you graduated from a certain college. IT Managers aren't THAT dumb anymore....quit fooling yourself.
"I threw up my hands in disgust and wondered if it had been such a good idea to have eaten my hands in the first place."
While the salary is the most important part of an employment package, there's a lot more to a good job that just it's salary.
Just my $0.02, after 25+ years as a programmer: salary falls well below a number of other considerations.
- Do you actively enjoy going to work each day?
- Does your job consistently strech your technical capabilities?
- Are your daily workmates more technically savvy than you, and happy to "mentor" you?
Answer "yes" to these questions, and salary doesn't matter: not only will you be happy, but you'll find that your salary increases quite quickly all by itself.
You have a job and no more homework or papers for school.
If you can pay rent with 1/4-1/3 of your monthly salary, eat and have fun, then seize it.
You're not getting married. If it TRULY sucks, you can leave. If you can make it a year first, great.
After that you have a track record that you can survive at a place for a year. (it's important, really).
You have something on your resume.
You get to see what work is like in the real world and what you like and don't like about this place.
A friend's dad was a job counselor. He helped his son and I go through some college selection things when we were 17. The stuff he used at work which was kinda cool. Make a list of your previous jobs.
- write down 10 (or so) things you liked.
- write down 10 things you DIDN'T like
- Take that last list and find the opposite
Now, take the pluses and the opposite of minuses and choose 10 most important things and look around with that in mind.This can be challenging work; babes in the office; free pizza on fridays; working with project managers to learn how it all works, whatever.
"Micromanaging boss" might become "boss that lets me work on my own a bit"
I found my list from pre-college 10 years later. Where my college didn't match on that list was often where I was frustrated and annoyed. OTOH, there were things I just didn't know about and was wrong on. But it happens. And 12 of 15 things were just about right.
Learn to cook. Brown rice and beans will cost $2 and be 3 meals. Spices and garlic make it worth eating.
Learn to budget. You have $N. You can spend $F on food, $R on rent, $L on loan payback, $S on some savings. The rest is $Entertainment and fun.
Spend > $E, and you lose. Put it on Visa and you might as well surrender now.
You really don't need a new TV. You may need new clothes for work though. None of it is deductable.
Hell, burn the TV. It takes an IQ point away for every 100 hrs you watch.
Take time and save up and travel some. You're less encumbered and can have fun.
everything you do before you're 25 is overlooked in the job world
I spent 3 summers touring with bands building Rock and Roll stages. It was a blast; I made some cash; I didn't die (before I reach for that, did I clip in or not...). My crap was in storage and it had totally nothing to do with my "career." In the winter, I had some real jobs.
Think about this for a second. $45K is pre-tax. Take away social "security" tax, state tax, federal tax and with luck $30K remains. Now take away $12K for rent, that leaves 18K. Per month, that is $1500. Now take away food, clothes, medical bill, and maybe a car payment and gas, and there isn't a lot of wiggle room.
How did this get modded up?
The administration costs for our healthcare runs at about 3%, which is a fraction of what it costs for an HMO. That runs about 25% since they spend a lot of money trying to deny that you're covered for anything.
Man,
If you really think the grass is greener, then move. You'll soon find the same 8 hour waits in American emergency rooms (ask me, I know firsthand), the same shit on endoscopes, and the same wastes in terms of costs. Doctors on the US are business people. They make more money dispensing 6 doses of chemotherapy, than one dose of radionuclide therapy. Know how I know, I work in the health industry in Canada, and used to in the US. Canada's health care system isn't perfect by any means (ie, lack of PET imaging), but if you think the US is any better, you're extremely naive.
Oh yeah, and the tax situation in the US is not a whole lot better than in Canada either. You have to count more than just Federal or State taxes when you calculate the tax burden. There are so many more fees for other services in the US that people take for granted and don't include in their texes.