Slashdot Mirror
Reasonable Salary for Entry Level Programmers?
An anonymous reader asks: "I will be graduating from college in May with a degree in computer science. I have begun the job search and gone on a few interviews. So far I have gotten two job offers which I am thankful for, but the salary seems low. I am not saying that I am too good to pay my dues and work my way up, but I could make more waiting tables. It is somewhat distressing that I have spent 4 years of college and years before that developing my programming skills. I am not trying to get rich, but I was hoping that the high level of skill required would account for something(no offense intended to waiters). Can anyone give me any insight about what a reasonable starting salary would be, for an entry level software engineer?"
Seriously...anything you can get is enough. It's an employer's market right now, and they know it. What you need to look for is the experience. A year or two down the road when a better job comes along, who's going to get hired? The kid who coded for peanuts but got two years of experience, or the kid who waited tables and got zero relevant professional experience?
Only take the table-waiting job if you can accomplish more worthwhile projects on your own time, and have excellent documentation skills to prove what you did.
...
I've been programming etc for over 20 years and I could probably make more money by driving a truck; various trades such as plumbing, electrician, ...
Engineering is the art of compromise.
out of undergrad in CS from NYU I was offered 62K in a NYC job (Bloomberg LP). I thought this was pretty high.
After finishing my masters in robotics from CMU, I hope to be making 75-85K. We'll see, but I expect this to be about right.
Clearly spending 2 years more in school will boost my salary more than experience would have. (maybe)
Want to make more? Learn specialized skills, get a higher degree, or spend more time looking.
www.kirigin.com
Robo-Blogs of the world: UNITE!
If you're starting out, I have bad news - given the decreases in salaries for people who've had 10 years experience, I hate to say this but the timing of your graduation is QUITE BAD. Offshoring fueling the latter along with the economic downturn and I don't expect things to improve much.
I have over 10+ years in tech, worked at a major software company and left for the dot bomb craze. I gave up lots of salary for equity and while the company was profitable and public, the market tanked a mere few weeks before my first vesting period. Even if it hadn't the AMT tax would have probably screwed me over anyway.
Since then I've worked some side stuff, waited tables, had the stupidity to try to sell cars and only in the last few months have things returned to what I call "normal."
Never mind that I worked on shrink wrapped products, developed a source level debugger, have had lots of experience on both Windows and UNIX. It all didn't matter to anyone.
I have to say, despite returning to a salary level that bests my previous best. I'm a changed person. Save, save, save.
IT blows. That's my 2 cents. HR people simply care about the last six months and are clueless if you are well ahead of your peers. They don't have the capacity to make this judgement.
You could tell them you architected (as an example) SSH and Kerberos have encryption patents and they might ask some stupid arse question like "Do you know JavaScript?"
Anyone starting school today... my advice is forget tech. If you feel it in your soul (like you should do it), fine, go to a tech school like DeVry, start making money and save it. Going to traditional 4 year programs for CS is an utter waste of time. Way too much change and like I said it's always about what you did in the last six months.
I've also been trying to find starting salaries for several established companies. Where on the net can I find this information (for free)?
:-(
Does anyone know what the starting salary is at Cisco? HP (California site)? Intel? Microsoft? Sun? Consulting companies (IBM included)? I'd appreciate responses from anyone that knows... even anonymous responses!
Meanwhile, here are a few facts and figures I've gathered through some research. Can anyone confirm these numbers? Caveat lector, as these are _all_ from sources whose accuracy I cannot ascertain:
IBM pays about $55K on average, starting off. However, they have many sites, so it would vary.
HP (in Texas) pays about $50-55K starting for technical positions.
Accenture non-consulting roles start out in the mid/high 20's for technical positions, from what I've heard. On the bright side, these jobs are unlikely to be outsourced, because you can't get much cheaper than that!
I've also heard that Intel pays very well starting off. But I've been unable to get a number for them
Figure out how much you know you are worth. (Be reasonable)
Divide it by 2.
Don't accept less than that.
Coding Blog
"...It proves you can learn,"
Naw, it proves you can show up for class for four years...which actually means something to employers because it proves you are at least somewhat dependable...
I was in the park the other day wondering why frisbees get bigger and bigger the closer they get - and then it hit me.
While I agree that the amount made doesn't necessarily influence one's happiness, I must disagree that higher paying jobs necessarily mean more work. I worked at a major university for 4 years, 2.5 of which were part-time while I was a student. I got paid a good student salary and all I did was fix computers. I got a full-time at the university and I was doing everything from ASP development to Exchange administration. Granted, I was self-taught and I did things poorly, but it was alot of work and I got paid pretty badly ($42K w/o benefits, $35K with). Now I'm working for a Fortune 500 and I'm making about 33% more (graduated in Fall 02). The benefits are better, the work is MUCH easier, I'm learning much more, I enjoy my work more, I work with others like myself, and I get paid more. I put in more hours at my previous job too. My advice to college folks is to get work experience if you don't have a 4.0 GPA at a recognized school (the GPA can help you alot, but if it's below 3 you NEED work experience). Work in a field you enjoy with people you like. Ignore salary unless you really NEED a certain amount (like if you have a child, etc.). Don't be too picky with your first job, it's a stepping stone to your career and you can recover from pretty much anything. Good luck grads!
This is true... I had several years of experience, including several applications written for my (work) department at school.
Another thing: If you can get a skill that differentiates you, it helps a LOT. My grades sucked, but when I was competing with the "2 quarters of ASP" kids and I had 4 years CGI experience, plus some java, it made me a lot more marketable. Not so much the skills, but that I acquired 'em on my own. Being a geek is helpful.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
I am also persuing a degree in ComputerScience. I am working on a combined Honours with Computer Science and Philosophy, but am planning on getting a Master's or PhD. I was wondering about how much does having OSS development on your resumé improve your chances? Does it count for anything in the 'real world'? Do employers look at it as 'real experience' like as if I had been been employed? Really what is it all worth? For anyone hiring what are you looking for? Would say that a Philosophy degree brings a little something more to the table (I'm taking philosohy because I enjoy it and find it more intellectually demanding than under-grad CompSci, not for monetary gain, but I do figure it should at least show that I am a flexible thinker)? How about non-CS job experience?
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
This reminds me of my first job out of college. I was fine working for my salary without benefits. Then some temporary bean counter notices that I've been working w/o benefits at full-time for well over a year and she makes it her mission to fix things. Basically I'm told (without warning) that I could only work 19 hours a week and that I would need to apply for my job when they had it posted.
:)
After a month I interviewed (4 hours of interviews for my own position) and I beat out someone else for my own job. The catch? They docked my pay 25% for the benefits (I was relying on my wife's benefits, $100 a month). My director said she's fix things in 3 months when the budget allowed for it. So, I basically played the waiting game and began applying for jobs after two months, and got an offer just in time to find out that she wasn't going to fix things.
It gave me the greatest sense of accomplishment to tell her that I was moving on, especially since she was going to counter-offer but I told her not to bother (I was aware of her budget and she could only afford half of the increase I was getting). Ahhh... memories...
I graduated in Dec 2001, after the bubble "popped", and I remember how insanely difficult it seemed to get a job. I can remember at least two instances where the companies held on-campus interviews followed by off-campus, second-round, half-day interviews for jobs that they didn't have to offer. They didn't hire anybody. Free advertisement, I guess. Maybe times have changed, but I gotta say "con-grat-u-lations" to anybody who gets a 50k/yr job right out of college.
Also, I haven't read any posts concerning Standard of Living costs. An entry-level job (or any job), would most certainly pay more in N.NJ than in, say, Birmingham.
While I agree with the parent poster, it is worth keeping in mind that recovering from a drastically low starting salary takes a long time. For the last few years, companies have been giving annual raises in the range of 2%, if you get one at all. I've heard of many people taking entry level jobs at really really low salaries with the promise of a big raise next year, which fails to materialize. So be willing to start low, but not too low.
Here's some job advice for the recent computer graduate in today's economy.
1. Join the military and get into an intelligence specialty. If you plan on working with computers after you get out, I suggest Navy or Air Force though I know a great sys admin who was a Marine.
2. Get and keep a security clearance. Don't let it lapse. Don't do drugs or, God forbid, marry a non-U.S. citizen. Always pretend that you agree with everything George says and repeat after me: "Hanging is too good for anyone from France".
3. Earn 35% more (at least) once you get out and you don't even need to have any skills or a degree. Your job will be safe from outsourcing, there's a thousand Beltway Bandits begging for your resume, and headhunters are tracking down kids straight out of the military (as long as they have a ticket). It's like the dot com bubble!
Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
If you actually studied hard, and know your way around, you should consider working up a portfolio. Most of the traditional creative arts require a portfolio. For years people saw computer science as an engineering-like process, and assumed a degree alone meant something. Actually, nowadays, a traditional engineering degree without a masters or PhD thesis doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot either.
But I digress. The point is it is extremely hard to tell how proficient a programmer is by simply talking to them. OTOH, five minutes browsing their source code tells you exactly what they know, and how they use that knowledge. Beware though; if you didn't actually learn anything in school, that too will show through like a sore thumb - if this is the case, avoid the source code and try to get the interviewer to talk about his kids.
Pick something random, peculiar, or fun. Try to do something that exercises all the areas you feel you are proficient in. Then write a simple program - a couple thousand lines is more than enough. If you're writing OO and use UML, consider adding that to the package. Same with unit tests, flowcharts, build scripts, or whatever else are the artifacts of your development process.
It has worked in my favour on job interviews, and I always appreciate when a candidate that I'm interviewing has something to show.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
So, as one who has hired (and been hired) at a number of startups and medium size companies, I have a bit on insight into the dynamics of what salaries have been doing in the valley since 1996 (when I started at Netscape). I'm not so sure how the specific analysis applies elsewhere, but the general advice applies.
:-)
Basically things got out of control between 98 and 2001 as venture capital flowed into companies that were required to grow quickly by the venture capital. All of the good talent was hired quickly, and then some of the average talent was hired. All that was left was the basic low-no skill talent.
So, there was a situation in which it became difficult to find low-average talent, and our standard economic models tell us that when demand goes up and supply stays relatively stable (it takes a little bit of time to supply new IT/Developers) that the price per unit will go up.
And that's what happened. The market tried to correct, everybody came flooding into the valley (as evidenced by Traffic Jams, zero rental inventory and huge monthly rentals) and, in order to have any chance of holding onto employees, companies started increasing salaries.
Good employees had great salaries and average employees had salaries that they would never normally be able to earn as companies scrambled to bring on staff. Salary inversions happened all of the time as an employee who started at $50K/year doing desktop support was making $20K/year less than a guy who started a year later. Most companies leveled these off, bringing up the $50K/year employee to $70K which created even more pricing pressure on employees.....
And then the Bust in 2001 when Venture capital dried up, the stock market basically collapsed. Public companies could no longer do secondaries to raise capital and Private companies, well, they grew very, very slowly if at all.
Companies laid off employees by the thousands and people fled the valley. (As evidenced by vast rental inventories, much lower traffic on 880 and 101 and a 30-40% drop in the cost of rental housing). Salaries in some cases dropped (HP/Microsoft dropped by approx 10% in the valley) and in almost every case froze for several years for existing employees.
For new employees, it was (and still is) a totally different situation - Basically for every IT job there are about 100-200 applicants. Only the good ones get hired and their salaries are at a competitive level. A solid IT Desktop Support employee at a mid-level company can expect to make 96-97 salaries in the valley ($50K-$60K). Sysadmins with 8-10 years experience are making $70-$90K. Everything has cooled off and the employer is in the drivers seat again.
The good news is that Great Engineers (IT/Software Developers) are _always_ impossible to find in the valley, good/bad/otherwise. You basically have to steal them from another company in order to hire them as they don't typically come directly out of school. Their salaries haven't dropped at all (as their companies held onto them - Great employees are always the last to be laid off) at their current salary, or they made a lateral move (equal salary) to a new company if their previous company went out of business.
What this means for you - If you love the business ignore the salary - it means nothing in the first 3-4 years of your career. Absolutely nothing. Work for free if you have to. Focus only on three things:
o The Quality of the Job - What will you be doing, will you have the resources to do it, will you be given lots of authority and opportunity to do new things.
o The Quality of the Company. Does it treat it employees ethically, Is it well financed (!!!), does it have great management, do you have highly skilled coworkers who will cross train you/develop you.
o The Quality of the Opportunity - Is this company in a hot space, are they developing a great product, are they first movers in a cool new technology that will become a standard.
Everything else will take care of itself if you are passionate, skilled and focussed. Don't worry about negotiating/looking for a great wage/etc... That will take care of itself. I promise you.
Even if you do make less than a waiter for the first 18 months or so.
- Any Day above Ground is a good Day (Michael Rich, 1997)
If a signifigant reason you trained to be a programmer was the money, you'll almost surely be a lousy programmer and you'll be unlikely to make much money.
;)
I make good money as a programmer, but I started low ($30K in late '98). Though at the time that was actually a raise, the main reason I did it was because I just loved coding, solving problems in a practical way, increasing company efficiency, etc. Because of that I got promoted pretty quickly, and hired away once people who knew me needed someone with the skills.
I'm not saying I'm great -- but I do love what I do, and that is why I'm pretty good at it. I've never met any good coders who didn't have some degree of love for the work itself.
In other words, I'd probably still be doing this if I got paid less than a waiter. Which is why I'm paid more
Cheers.
I'm making $18/hr just doing help desk. I have a business degree though, but still, that's useless. I would at least hope that a comp sci degree would garner a little more...
Not to say at all that $20/hr would be bad, just by comparison. I'm actually quite happy with my wage.
I think the median price for a house in california is 340,000.
You can get the same house for about 180,000 in Vegas.
So I think it really depends where you are planning to live and work.
Most of the Jobs that I have found require minimum work experience along with a degree. That level of work experience is typically 3-5 years. Please do not confuse learning to code on your own or any other such nonsense as work experience. Yes, it helps to learn on your own, but its much better to get away from the computer and get work experience, even if it's a 7 dollar an hour internship at the university.
Well, since you are already graduating, I hope you have work experience otherwise, it's going to be another 3-5 years before you can even hope of getting a job that makes those 4-5 years in school worth it.
I've got a year and a half left (till my BS) and I already have 3 years of experience in computational software development and 5 years for systems administration (mostly parallel development and design and deployment of beowulf systems). I got lucky in high school and grabbed an intership at a local manufacturer. Worked for their IT department doing piddly things, however, the entry on my resume and some dumb luck made future Jobs come to me.
I feel bad if you are getting this news too late. A friend of mine already graduated last semester and had little to no work experience. The best offer he got was an internship (internship??? the guy already graduated!) with IBM for around 12 bucks an hour to audit web code.
To answer your question: If you have no work experience, CNN claims that the average out-of-college CS degree holder will get a starting pay of around $48,000 a year. I call bullshit on that one and have a more conservative estimate of around $35,000 if you get lucky (it greatly depends on your location). At this point, you should just take what you can get and keep your eyes open for better opportunities. At this point, someone else is probably right behind you in the H.R. line, with his/her CS degree, drooling for that $10 an hour job.
If you have good work experience and have worked in a specialized field (not systems administration), the salary possibilities are endless if you know where to look. Accept nothing less than $50,000 or $60,000 if you know you're good, you have the experience to back it up, and you have sufficient funds to go a month or two without a job.
I advise that you look strongly at contract-to-hire type work, or just straight contract work, if you're good. If you were better than your peers in school, are more into what you do, etc, then this will likely pay off. Talent, skill, and ability pay. So take a contract job to make yourself low-risk for your employer, and you'll likely find yourself being reeled in as a permanent. Negotiate up.
If you're not good, say under the 75th percentile in skill, this will not work well, and it will be best at the 90th+. But if you're good, think about this.
For anyone interested in what the rates are like, for both permanent and freelance, in most parts of the UK, you can have a look at Jobstats, which slices and dices all the data it can find on the job web sites.
Who would believe in penguins,unless he had seen them? Conor O Brien - Across Three Oceans
American workers are screwed, especially in large urban areas.
$45k in Silicon Valley is nothing.
$45k in L.A. is barely a living wage.
$45k in South Carolina is a nice living.
$45k in India is a rich man.
This is why jobs are getting outsourced. A company can get the same quality of work and provide the employee with the same standard of living overseas, or even in less expensive areas of the United States.