WiX Project Lead Interviewed On CPL Licensing

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WiX Project Lead Interviewed On CPL Licensing

Posted by simoniker on Friday April 23, 2004 @08:31PM from the give-it-away-now dept.

comforteagle writes "After Microsoft released WiX (Windows Installer XML) under the CPL I found it odd that so many interviews following were with almost everyone but the project lead. So, for your Friday enjoyment I've posted an interview with Rob Mensching, Wix Project lead, who sheds a little light on what's going on behind the scenes at the Shared Source Initiative from the ground." Mensching explains: "My bosses were not involved in the decision which license should be used for the Windows Installer XML toolset. I worked with members of the Shared Source Initiative team who understand the details of the various licenses available to share source code. They listened to my requirements and found that the CPL seemed most appropriate for the toolset."

32 of 132 comments (clear)

One question: by Anonymous Coward · 2004-04-23 20:38 · Score: 3, Funny

How does this make Microsoft yet more evil?
1. Re:One question: by shione · 2004-04-23 21:12 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Not more evil but its something that doesnt really help the community that much (as there are plenty of good Win installers out there like Nullsoft's). at the same time it gives ms some volley to say 'hey we support open source too!'
2. Re:One question: by Anonymous Coward · 2004-04-23 21:42 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  If you can't think of a reason why anything could make Microsoft any more evil then.. Welcome new user! Enjoy your stay at this lovely board!
3. Re:One question: by Spoing · 2004-04-23 23:55 · Score: 3, Informative
  Not more evil but its something that doesnt really help the community that much (as there are plenty of good Win installers out there like Nullsoft's). at the same time it gives ms some volley to say 'hey we support open source too!'
  
  NSIS, while good at what it does, does not generate MSI packages.
  Making MSI packages is a pain, so this project is welcome.
  That said, I have no interest in it beyond Windows; MSI is a good attempt at package management, though it is not as nice as the package formats of RPM or DEB and the associated tools. (Yes, there are about a dozen 'necessary' additions and changes to RPM/DEB & tools I'd like to see.)
  --
  A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
German by Anonymous Coward · 2004-04-23 20:38 · Score: 4, Funny

Next time, ask around to see what a name means in other languages before you choose it for an international project... You don't want to name your project "WiX" in Germany.
1. Re:German by mocm · 2004-04-23 20:54 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  "wichsen" (sounds like vixen) means to polish, but is usually assotiated with polishing a certain body part. Wichs (or Wix) would be the noun.
  
  --
  ***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***
2. Re:German by Anonymous Coward · 2004-04-23 20:54 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  wixen, wichsen, v.: to wank
3. Re:German by Anonymous Coward · 2004-04-23 20:55 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  "Wichsen" is manual stimulation of the male genitals, usually masturbation. If someone introduced you as the "Leiter des WiX projekts", that would mean you are the leader of the masturbation project.
4. Re:German by neglige · 2004-04-23 21:14 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  You don't want to name your project "WiX" in Germany
  
  No, but boy will this be fun (see other posts for translations) :)
  
  Now, your installation can be "hingewixt" quickly on your "wixed" system. Many people already suspected that everything from MS is "abgewixt". But, best of all, as it is free (as in speech), anybody can "wixen", and everyone can share the "wixe" and knowledge about "wixen".
  
  Thank you, Microsoft, for making tech-talk on public transit so much more... interesting.
  
  --
  My cats ate my karma. They also wrote this comment.
5. Re:German by Hank+Powers · 2004-04-23 21:36 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  The same applies to Google's Orkut service. Orkut is the Finnish for "orgasms".
  
  --
  hapo
6. Re:German by Anonymous Coward · 2004-04-23 21:38 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Well, it's a social networking service, isn't it?
Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2004-04-23 20:47 · Score: 5, Interesting

Has Microsoft ever done ANYTHING that /. has approved of?

I sure if MS released the source code to Windows 2003 under the GPL tomorrow /. would find some nefarious plot behind that too.

-Cecil
1. Re:Microsoft by rking · 2004-04-23 21:52 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Has Microsoft ever done ANYTHING that /. has approved of?
  
  Didn't they kill clippy?
XML based MSI by sweet+cunny+muffin · 2004-04-23 20:48 · Score: 5, Interesting

For anyone wondering, this is basically an XML wrapper for the MSI.

MSI files are binary databases that you had to edit with a nasty tool called oracle. The whole thing was counter intuitive. I could never understand why the MSI wasn't XML based from the start. It was written when MS was XML mad, after all.

This is brilliant. You can now work with a text source file format for the MSI.
1. Re:XML based MSI by Keeper · 2004-04-23 21:15 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Quote:
  
  I could never understand why the MSI wasn't XML based from the start. It was written when MS was XML mad, after all.
  
  Actually it wasn't.
  
  Okay, so that explains the why structured storage files were chosen for the base file format, but why use a relational database format in the first place? On this point, my memory was better. Relational databases were just the "in" thing at the time. Picking a relational database file format in the mid-1990s would be kinda' like picking XML as your file format today. I have to wonder if, in five year's time, anybody will be questioning why the heck so many developers picked a verbose, text based file format for so many of their applications.
  -- robmen
Other Microsoft Shared Source Licensing Programs by crem_d_genes · 2004-04-23 20:59 · Score: 4, Informative

Mensching: "I am not well versed in all of the licenses used by the Shared Source Initiative. As I described above, I went to the Shared Source Initiative team with the goals of my project and we agreed that the CPL was an appropriate license for the Windows Installer XML toolset."

Other types of shared source license programs at Microsoft, and further links in the Shared Source Initiative.
Why can't windows have decent package management.. by autopr0n · 2004-04-23 21:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

MSI installation on windows is a huge step up from the old setup.exe situation, but it isn't that often used.

What I'd really love to see on windows is something where windows tracked the 'lineage' of every file (and reg key) on the system. So, when you want to get rid of a program, you're able to remove everything the program touched, save files you've copied over to another location.

It's easy to get software installed on windows, now they need to work on a method to get everything removed, especialy spyware...

--
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Interesting Interview by Slugworth01 · 2004-04-23 21:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

Based on the interview, Rob seems like a typical developer. Answers to questions are short and sweet, no marketing buzzwords. Does seem to have a lot of M$ religion though.
This is being handled by M$ in a most interesting way; most likely all be design. This is not (IMHO) a project that escaped from Redmond, they have a plan in mind. The question is - is this a "hip fake" to the OSS community to fool everyone while they finalize their master plan of world domination of all computers everywhere, or is it an example of M$ recognizing the value of OSS and using it when it makes sense?
1. Re:Interesting Interview by shione · 2004-04-23 21:17 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  I like that guys edge too, most notably at the part where he said "My bosses were not involved in the decision which license should be used for the Windows Installer XML toolset. I worked with members of the Shared Source Initiative team who understand the details of the various licenses available to share source code. They listened to my requirements and found that the CPL seemed most appropriate for the toolset."
  
  and then "As the project administrator of the Windows Installer XML project, I consider it my primary responsibility to build a community focused improving the Windows Installer XML toolset. To create that community, the members must first trust that the project is going to continue. If someone doesn't yet trust that the Windows Installer XML project is going to continue but is still interested, then I would suggest he or she wait and watch. I've found the only way to build someone's trust is to continually demonstrate your good intentions and apologize for any mistakes you might make along the way.
  "
  
  Good to see he has a lot of confidence in OS. :)
2. Re:Interesting Interview by r.jimenezz · 2004-04-23 22:37 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  What I think this gives Microsoft is an excellent opportunity to get its feet wet with a truly opensource licensed project that doesn't impact their bottom line.
  
  It is a well known best practice to never adopt a new business process, technology or in general any dramatic change in a thorough, one fell swoop fashion. Instead, pilot projects and gradually-phased programs give you the chance to gauge the effects of your decisions while you go.
  
  With WiX, I get under the impression MS gets to see how does it feel like to handle an open source project and maybe find a way to prepare to get revenue out of it (don't see it happening yet with WiX but they can learn for later)
  
  --
  The revolution will not be televised.
Re:about sig (offtopic)Re:Ahaaa a M$ renegade by eclectro · 2004-04-23 21:21 · Score: 2, Funny

If linux and bsd are blond and brunett, which o.s. is the redhead

That would be FreeDos obviously.

Windows would be a 300 pound guy with lots of stubble chomping on a cigar.

--
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Not oracle by News+for+nerds · 2004-04-23 21:24 · Score: 4, Informative

but Orca
1. Re:Not oracle by CdBee · 2004-04-23 22:15 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Orca - you culd have a whale of a time making killer jokes about that
  
  oh.. wait...
  
  --
  I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
Re:Why can't windows have decent package managemen by CdBee · 2004-04-23 21:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

MSI installation on windows is a huge step up from the old setup.exe situation, but it isn't that often used.

I guess you're thinking in terms of home software and games then. The PCs I set up for our office network have very few apps that aren't MSI-based... AV, Office, accounting software, image editor, PCAnywhere all use the Windows Installer.

The only real problem with MSI is when a PC crashes during an install and after reboot you can't use the installer because it believes it's already doing an installation. Not a common problem but I've seen it happen.

--
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
#Develop deployment GUI potential by BillsPetMonkey · 2004-04-23 22:33 · Score: 3, Interesting

I write in C#. Yes I confess. It's a highly productive language, and implements a lot of what Java didn't (e.g. foreach, Enums). I release under GPL, which means I can't use VS.NET because the license explicitly forbids it.

So I use #Develop and more recently Mono Develop. Problem is, unlike VS.NET there's no package deployment option to speak of (unless you write your own).

This project means that scripts can be generated from the GUI and then compiled using the C# candle tool provided in WiX. Enabling C# packages to be deployed on GPL.

--
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
1. Re:#Develop deployment GUI potential by listen · 2004-04-24 00:21 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  The EULA of VS.Net tries to forbid it.
  
  This is of course totally non-binding and non-enforceable. When you create something ( the source of your program), you hold the copyright o f that something and can licence it as you wish.
  
  I want a new law, which puts the same legal penalties on a lawyer for writing false legal notices ( known to be bullshit or unenforceable) as false legal advice : possible disbarment and malpractice lawsuits.
Smeg refrigerators by CaptainCheese · 2004-04-23 22:36 · Score: 2, Funny

Thing is, smegma is an international term for manliest cheese of all. It's medical latin.

so I think those crazy smeg folks are just a bunch of weirdos.

--
-- .sigs are a waste of data...turn them off...
It's hopeless... by Kjella · 2004-04-23 23:18 · Score: 2, Funny

...there's so many languages, you're bound to run into some bad word, or that is homothetic to some bad word. For instance, Ford introduced a car model called Fitta, which in Norwegian would be like "Ford Cunt". Their slogan was "Small on the outside, large when you get inside". Now for a car, that might not be such a bad slogan... They renamed it Honda Jazz here, but I think they still use that name elsewhere.

Kjella

--
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I wonder how long ... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-04-23 23:43 · Score: 2, Funny

... it will be before MS patents "A method of sharing software source code freely"?
Ten years hence... by Queuetue · 2004-04-23 23:45 · Score: 2, Funny

Maybe it's so when the courts try to force MS to open it's source in the coming decade, they can tell Congress

"It's wrong to call us closed source. We have had core features of our OS open sourced since 2004! On SourceForge, even!"
Tons of Free code at M$ by troop23 · 2004-04-24 01:35 · Score: 5, Informative

I know most /.'s will find this hard to believe but M$ has always provided a huge amount of source code in an open source fashion. Just visit MSDN and you'll see of examples of free sample code. Then go to the code center where you can find tons of free demonstration applications that you can use to build your own app. For example the company I work for has used User Interface Process Application Block for .NET and Exception Management Application Block for .NET from their patterns and practices site to form the basis of an Enterprise scale business application. Of course the code is generally sample applications for Business purposes. But code like this has been available from M$ since before the internet boom.
Re:Open ? Ohh yeah Major U turn ... NOT by JohnQPublic · 2004-04-24 04:33 · Score: 4, Informative

So you needed a license model that does NOT allow sharing between REAL open licenses but looks open enough.

The Open Source Initiative thinks the CPL is "open". It allows derivitive works, grants no-royalty patent licenses to recipients (although only specifically for the program they receive), and allows source redistribution. It doesn't require source redistribution, but then neither do several other "open" licenses.

So what's the problem?