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Beyond Megapixels

TheTechLounge points to this "first of a three-part series of editorial articles examining current digital photography hardware, as well as the author's views of what is to come." It boils down to the excellent point that pixel count alone is not the way to evaluate digital camera capabilities.

19 of 438 comments (clear)

  1. Why were MP ever such a big deal? by grahamsz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Most people didn't care about resolution in the analog world. The fact that many people considered APS cameras to be better than 35mm is simple proof of this.

    This seems analogous to consumer computer makers moving away from advertising GHz and MB.

    It's what you (can) do with it that counts.

    1. Re:Why were MP ever such a big deal? by tzanger · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have a Canon PowerShot A60 -- I chose it over other brands because I really like how my Canon Rebel EOS works and the A60 is very similar. 2.2MP isn't a hell of a lot, but it's enough to get 5x7 prints and have a chance in hell of it looking close to what I can get with a regular camera.

      I completely disagree with your statement that digital cameras aren't used for prints -- I take a bazillion pictures, throw them up in 720x480 for the web for grandma and grandpa and then they tell me specifically which pictures they'd like prints of. I take the original 2.2MP JPEGs and give them to my film guy -- he touches them up and makes real 4x6 or 5x7 prints for me. They look fantastic and everyone's happy.

      True, the bulk of my pictures stay in 720x480 but it's really nice to be able to get a 5x7 out of it should I want it. The amount of time I want 8x10s is next to nil; I go to the same photographer and get really good digital pictures taken in that case. (He's all but completely moved to a full digital studio.)

    2. Re:Why were MP ever such a big deal? by ForestGrump · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Heh, when I was taking calsses at a CC, I met a guy who worked as a photo tech at a drug store.
      He told me that APS was just crap...and to avoid it like the plague.

      He also said there was some thru the mail company, seattle film, or something like that. they would send people film, you send the film to them for processing. The quality on the film sucked because it was some different technology, and that you were locked into their scheme because you couldn't get it developed anywhere else..

      Grump

      --
      Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
    3. Re:Why were MP ever such a big deal? by ipfwadm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have a 3 megapixel camera, and I've gotten pictures from it blown up to as large as 16x20. In fact, I have 2 of them on the wall of the room I'm sitting in right now. If I look at them from 6 inches away, I can tell there isn't as much detail as I would get from film. But when I'm sitting 6 feet away as I am right now (and 99% of the time), you could never tell the difference. Same with the dozen 11x14s I have around my apartment.

      In fact, when I brought the prints to a store to get them dry mounted and I told them they were digital, the response was "THESE are DIGITAL?" The fact that the enlargements were done with a photographic process vs. a printing process certainly helps. The 4x6 prints I get look just as good as anything I've gotten from film, but, as another poster stated, you can't get that kind of quality from your $99 inkjet.

      Check out http://www.adirondack-park.net/trip2003/ if you want to see the pictures I've gotten blown up (and a lot of others); they're all from a 13,000-mile trip around the U.S. last summer. The ones I've gotten at 16x20 are Bryce Canyon, Crater Lake, the mountain next to Mt. Dana in Yosemite N.P., and the Grand Tetons.

    4. Re:Why were MP ever such a big deal? by Veteran · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The HP 7960 8 ink printer produces prints which are superior to photographic enlarger prints. Having done extensive darkroom work I think that scanned film with a 7960 is currently the way to go (up to 8.5 x 11 inch prints that is.) Are the inks expensive? Yes, is the paper expensive? Yes. Are the results superb? Yes.

      Why do I do my own printing? A $10,000 printer at a camera store is only as good as the person operating it. If I screw up my prints I have only myself to blame. For serious work I want at least a 6x6 cm negative, which is about equal to 64 megapixels.

      For snapshots of people - which are never going to be enlarged bigger than 5" x 7" I suggest an inexpensive Argus D450 35 mm point and shoot with an aspheric plastic zoom lens, built in automatic flash, motor drive and a 10 year warranty. The camera, which came with 2 batteries, and a roll of Kodak 400 speed color film sold for $17.53 (including tax) at the local Wallmart. For this type of photography I don't know of a digital camera which can come close to it for the money.

      Do I own digital cameras? Yes, but I don't think they are quite ready for primetime yet.

    5. Re:Why were MP ever such a big deal? by rgmoore · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Whether digital or film is cheaper depends a lot on how many pictures you want to take and how many prints you want to make. A cheap film camera is probably a good choice if you're going to take a roll of snapshots once a year at Christmas and share one set of prints with your family. But if you want to take a few thousands photos a year and share them with everyone you know, the digital will pay for itself in reduced film, developing, and printing costs in fairly short order.

      Digital also has some real practical advantages. The images are available immediately, which can be very handy in some cases. I went to a party not too long ago where I took pictures that we were able to view on the host's computer before everyone went home. That would be a lot harder with a film camera. Digital photos are also very easy to organize, which is a big plus.

      --

      There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.

    6. Re:Why were MP ever such a big deal? by Bob+Davis,+Retired · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The HP 7960 8 ink printer produces prints which are superior to photographic enlarger prints.

      With film enlargement, the choices of paper and film are what impacts the quality the most. I would agree that the current digital workflow rivals film for quality and blows it away for control, but traditional enlargements can and do frequently look better. I personally find HP's greens a little sickly.

      I don't trust any inkjet manufacturer when they claim their prints are archival just yet. Check back with me in twenty years and I may have changed my mind. So, currently Lightjet is the printer that I make most of my prints on. It produces 300 DPI continuous tone color (equal to 4000 DPI halftone - I don't think you could find an inkjet that even prints 4000 DPI!!!), with a very wide gamut. It uses genuine archival photographic paper (many different kinds, actually). The price is competitive to inkjet systems as well. Color has been spot on so far.

  2. MP matters to a point by KalvinB · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When you're dealing with digital you quite simply need pixels. You need to decide what size pictures you intend to print or whatnot and get an MP count to match. You can't get a 1.0MP camera and do large prints of any quality.

    Of course you also need picture quality. But it really doesn't matter how good the colors are if you're only getting a postage stamp image.

    I have a 2.0 megapixel camera which I intend to replace eventually. Not because of the pixel count, but because of the image quality. I have a few pictures where a small branch got just a bit into the frame. The camera focused on that little branch and blurred the rest of the picture. There's no manual focus so all I can do is watch what's in the view carefully.

    It also doesn't react intelligently to low light. Although with a bit of modification I can turn that into a feature as I can take time lapse photos to get good pictures in very low light.

    As with all things, you need to pick the versions with the features you need.

    Ben

  3. Re:Identify a standard by srivatsanm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If we can't use just one metric to identify the quality of a digicam, we'd have to do with something like a (megapixel,sensor size,optical zoom) triplet. Most of us already know to look for more than one feature while buying PC's. It would be nice if somebody well-versed in the mysteries of digital camera technology would standardize the set of features that I should be looking for as a consumer....

  4. It's the same as in computers in general... by Kjella · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...electronics: Cheap ...optics: Expensive

    Look at screens. Graphics cards have improved massively (electronics), screens (optics) used to be 1024x768 quite a while back, and typically aren't more than 1600x1200 now. The LCDs will hopefully change that though, since they're much more scalable (make more pixels) than a CRT (move beam faster).

    Same with digital camera. The back-end is getting much cheaper, multi-MP CCDs and other electronics, but good optics in the lens is still damn expensive.

    I read a piece recently about HDTV cameras. There were rumors that a certain camera would be sub-10.000$. The official comment basicly said "we can't tell you the real price yet, but you're smoking crack. the lens alone is in the 7-9.000$ range".

    That being said, most digital cameras today should be just fine, if you don't try to take "impossible" pics. If the sun is saturating the CCD, it won't happen. If there's light casting ugly shadows, fill it in or you'll never get rid of them. There's a lot more bad photography than bad cameras...

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  5. It is the LENSES dammit. by loraksus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    An 8 megapixel ccd behind a cheap lens is going to look worse than a 1 megapixel ccd behind a high quality lens. Look at the pictures of mars, they were taken using a 1mp camera.

    Of course, the additional detail is nice. But to be really usable to blow images up (which is probably the only reason for going higher than 4-5mp), the following problems have to be solved.

    1. Noise has to be reduced. Especially in dark pics. Less of a problem now, but still an issue. Of course, if you're taking a 8mp camera and printing out an 8x10, you probably won't be complaining. Zoom in to 300-400% and you will be easily able to see it (and all the stuck sensors, but that is another story).

    2. The lens is good enough to resolve that detail.
    No, your made in china $5 lens will not be good enough. There is a reason professional film cameras have "big ass lenses".

    --
    1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcfv gbhnjmk,l.;/
  6. Depth by slabbe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even with good lenses and modern low noise sensors, digital cameras has a rather narrow exposure range as compared to classical photography. Shooting with negative film you can get something like twice the exposure range, compared to any ordinary digital camera (i.e. you will be able to see more details in both the dark and light areas of your photo)

  7. Dynamic Range and the SIZE of the CCD!! by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 3, Interesting

    First of all, no one has mentioned DYNAMIC RANGE yet. This is the range between absolute black and absolute white. Whether you are using film or digital, this range is crushed compared to the human eye. Digital dynamic range tends to be worse than film, which is one reason film isn't going to go completely away any time soon.

    Greater dynamic range will give you better details in your shadows and highlights. This is very important for the serious photog, although probably not important for snaps of your kid's Bar Mitzvah.

    The other thing that matters is the actual size of the CCD. Manufacturers are using various technical tricks to squeeze out more pixels from the same size CCD, and the results are sometimes pretty bad. The worst problem I've seen was purple fringing in bright red objects that were backlit. Totally ruined an otherwise beautiful photograph.

    The bigger the CCD the better.

    --
    It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  8. Re:Obvious by jwitch · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Some interesting points there mate. However, don't dismiss software zooming as being useless. The software zoom on most digital cameras take the picture, then software zoom, then convert the raw data into formats such as jpg. If you were to just convert to jpg and use software to zoom, you would be zooming in on the artifacts of the jpeg compression. Therefore, software zooming can give you that little ooomf. I'm ignoring the fact that some cameras don't compress the raw data though. In which case, just ignore me :p

  9. Why digital camera? by russianspy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why not shoot in film and use a film scanner? I've got a 30 year old (Minolta X-700) camera that has been with me through a lot. The thing will not die and just keeps on going. I just have to change the battery once a year or so. I usually develop my photos at a grocery store. Ask to have it developed and cut only - no prints. It costs me 1.25 per roll and I have it in about 20 minutes. Later I scan them in myself, get 11 Megapixel images with 48 bit color, scanned 8 times to minimize noise. (They're about 62 Meg TIFF images) that I can print with up to 13x19 on my Epson 2000P printer. The best part is, in 5 years I'll buy the newest and greatest film scanner and I have the option to re-scan the images at 20 Megapixels or whatever. That's my solution at least. By the way, the scanner was only 500CAD ;-)

  10. Re:But MP matters for size! by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Well, first of all, the camera manufacturers lie about pixel counts. They count R, G, and B as separate pixels. Worse, since they usually use a Bayes layout, sensor cells are grouped in groups of four, with one red, two green, and one blue pixel. So divide by four.

    Foveon cameras have one three-color sensor per pixel, but for PR purposes, they, too, count R, G, and B as separate pixels. For example, the Sigma SD-10 mentioned in the article has an imager 2268 x 1512 pixels, but is listed as a "10.8 megapixel" camera. For Foveon units, divide by 3.

    Foveon cameras, since the R, G, and B sensors are at the same place, don't generate color artifacts at black/white boundaries. This eliminates one of the main effects that makes "digital" look worse than film. Of course, if you compress to JPEG, you get color artifacts anyway, but that's a JPEG problem, not an imager problem.

  11. Re:As an ex-commercial photographer by mozumder · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Agree that ergonomics should be prioritized. It's amazing how many useless "features" the camera makers are adding to jack up their marketing feature list at the expense of usability. There are just WAY too many options. They could get rid of almost all the buttons on a Digital camera for even the pros. I really wish they would simply cut out switches and menu options and make it so that you DON'T need a manual to operate it. My favorite camera is still a fully-manual 35mm Nikon FM2. Either that or an 8x10.

    Things I wish manufacturers did:

    1. Store data in RAW format. (Thanks to Sigma for pushing this.) This get rid of the useless "low/medium/high quality" switch on the camera. There goes one pointless switch.

    2. Store all data at the highest resolution. Get rid of the "small/medium/large" switch. If I needed to store more pictures on my card, I would have bought a higher-capacity CF drive. I can get 4GB models now. That should be enough to store hundreds of pics. Another pointless switch, gone...

    3. Get rid of in-camera white-balance setting, and do this on the computer or laptop or even palmtop to simplify the camera and force the complexity outside. (Again, thanks to Sigma) This can be done on the computer if needed with the RAW file. Most amateur users have NO idea what the hell white-balance means anyways. A third pointless switch gone..

    4. Get rid of the Priority switches- Aperture, Shutter, Etc.. Instead, allow the user to adjust the Aperture & Shutter on a lens ring. The ring can also have a setting for Auto. This can also be done for focusing with a Focusing ring. There- 3 buttons eliminated just like that.

    5. Get rid of on-camera flashes settings (Keep the wimpy on-camera flash if you must, but leave it on Auto always, and auto-disable when external flash is connected) Pro photographers would have an external flash anyways, and any flash settings can be made on that. Another switch, gone...

    There's so many useless switches on a modern Digital SLR that can be completely thrown away and still provide all the functionality anyone would want.

    Some people may want all these useless features.. for them the camera vendors can have their own special overfeatured model. I would rather have one that's simple and obvious... The first Digital SLR vendor that comes out with a Camera that DOESN'T include an INSTRUCTION MANUAL, I'm buying.

  12. Cool flower shots by m.dillon · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Every time someone posts something about Digital Cameras on SlashDot I usually have enough photos built up to show something new off. So here you go!

    Flower shots from my folks Garden

    All of these pictures were taken with my Canon-EOS10D, 420EX flash (used mainly for shadow fill), and Sigma 20mm 1:1.8 EX DG prime lens. The shots were taken hand-held in AP mode using F4.0-F16 depending on the conditions. This particular lens produces ultra sharp results at F4.0-F13 or so. The 10D (and 300D) use a 6 MPix low-noise CMOS sensor and you can see it in the above shots.

    Insofar as all the discussion goes, from my point of view it all comes down to three things: Lens Quality, Sensor Quality, and Dynamic Range (of the exposure). SLR's like the 10D have gotten good enough that I don't use film any more. The lens quality is there (being an SLR and taking the same lens as the film EOS's), sensor quality is there, and while dynamic range still needs another 2-4 bits of resolution for my comfort it's still good enough for 99% of the shots I take. Film is dead, digital rendition at 11!

    And I tend to agree with the few other obviously experienced comments (verses the bozo comments from people that don't know jack about taking photographs). You first need to know how to take a picture before you can take a good one. Then comes lens and sensor noise. A lens hood is important, and a good flash (articulated for bounce shots and also be sure to have a diffusor handy) is very important (even when you don't think you need it). For example, most of those flower shots I took were with flash+diffusor, even though it was a bright sunny day outside. The flash was used primarily to fill in some of the shadow (one way to correct for limited dynamic range but it also makes the shots look a lot better).

    -Matt

  13. Re:Professional Printers.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not to get too picky here, but the latest Noritsus and Fuju Frontiers are laser printers. Instead of exposing a selenium drum with an IR laser, they expose the photographic emulsion with red, green, and blue lasers. Some printers (e.g. ZBE Chromiras -- the best in the business) use LEDs, others (crappy ones) use CRTs, but most use lasers.

    And not counting the cost of equipment, expect to pay $0.25 per sq. ft. for wet prints. It's going to be a lot more than 5 years before somebody has an inkjet process that can spit out 2000 4x6 archival prints in an hour for less than a nickel a piece.

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