Slashdot Mirror
Moving Up the IT Ladder in a Poor Economy?
Andy asks: "As almost anyone who joined the IT industry on the tail end of the Dot-Com boom can tell you, trying to move up in the industry for the past couple of years has been like jogging up-wind in a hurricane. I have sent resumes to countless numbers of employers only to still be working in the same $13/hr. low-end outsource support job as when I started (and $13/hr. doesn't get you too far in Boston these days). Learning more and more languages/technologies/protocols has merely resulted in a larger skill set on my resume, with pretty much the same level of experience, and no new interviews. Has anyone else been able to get out of this sort of slump, either during this economic slump or a previous one? Should I just continue the path of learning as much as I can and applying for jobs? Would getting a cert (maybe an RHCE or some Cisco certs) help? Would it be worth it to get a degree in MIS or CS?"
Would getting a cert (maybe an RHCE or some Cisco certs) help? Would it be worth it to get a degree in MIS or CS?
Holy fuck, hate to break it to you, but the fact that you're making twice the minimum wage is just unbelievable, you must have some guardian angels following you around. IT is finished as occupation. I don't mean programming or research or product development. IT as support is finished, it's either outsourced, or the product itself is such an easy thing to use, you don't need a monkey to tell you "Ok, now go to File, then click Open, and that will open a file for you?"
I mean seriously, what the hell are you thinking getting into industry with no certs, no education, no experience and no visible products that you've yourself developed. IBM just fired 5K not too long ago, Sun fired 3,000 people, so there are hundreds of engineers out there who have certs, experience, big-name company recognition competing for the same jobs.
I'd say be thankful for what you have, since I am surprised you have that much as $13/hour.
I only got a good job going through the "front door" approach once in my life. I was 14 years old.
20 years later, everything worth getting came from being aggressive with marketing myself and finding unexpected leads. I would recommend possibly getting a book about Cold Calling. There's one especially good called Cold Calling for Women that's really good for men or women. There's also a classic book called What Color is Your Parachte. It's geared toward people who maybe want to switch careers, but it's got good discussion of finding jobs as well.
It seems to me that going the "normal career route" in the I.T. field is inherently problematic simply because our field changes so rapidly, and few employers want to keep up with constant retraining. So we've got to think differently from other workers, even if we're slogging through the office right next to them.
The way you get the big payoff is you think outside the box. Become your own entrepreneur. If that's too much hassle, enjoy your $13/hr wage.
Murray Todd Williams
Networking.
As in, expand your personal contacts, not connecting together computers.
You probably shouldn't click this.
If you don't have a degree, and you can't seem to get anything better than entry-level and dead-end jobs, going to college would probably be a good idea. The degree alone won't solve your problems, but not having a degree gives the overworked HR drone sorting resumes an easy way to categorize yours... as a NO. Which could explain the lack of any interviews. (By the way, picking up a book on resume-writing might be a good idea as well.)
Furthermore, if you're going to go to college, the best time for that is during a weak economy (like now). You don't want to spend that occasional window of 4-5 years when everyone else is making money, by sitting in classes and paying money instead.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
You'll never find it in this economy. What I can suggest is to find something you really ENJOY doing (i.e. programming/games/support/whatever), and work hard to get that job, and then sit tight and wait for the economy to pick up. At least then you'll get some enjoyment out of your job. If possible look for something with a future for moving to a place where you want to go (or pay scale you want to go) so when the economy picks up, at least you'll be first in line..
Mod +5 Drunk
Would it be worth it to get a degree in MIS or CS?
I really hope this isn't serious... how exactly did you plan to get very far in a field you have no formal education in? Trust me, I am a firm believer that "clues > certs" but in the case of a university degree, it's a no brainer. I really hope this was a troll submission...
We pay our cleaning lady $50 to clean the house once a week, which takes her from 3 to 4 hours. She is 25 years old, doesn't know how to move a mouse or type on a keyboard.
At $13 an hour and a bunch of certifications, I think you are probably in the wrong company or doing the wrong stuff.
Boston is a dying area for techies, like Silicon Valley, less jobs every year. Beefing up your resume won't help much if there's insufficient need in your environment.
Hit up your local temp agencies for temp IT work. Once you get a temp job make yourself indspensable and the job will follow.
This guy is way out there
You ask whether it's "worth it" to get some more training or a degree. In return, I'd ask what you're trying to accomplish. Do you want to be a software engineer, given you don't have a computer science background? I've known a few excellent people in that situation, but they are VERY rare.
Also, before blaming the economy: is your resume excellent? Please post it online and I'm sure you'll receive some constructive criticism from the Slashdot crowd....
I don't know about that. The more skills you have the better. But no one wants a mediocre employee to begin with, no matter what the skill set. The more skills and experience with those skills you have, the more employable you'll be. It also gives you more spin options for your resume. And in this job market you're going to need to spin your resumes in as many ways as possible. If I were in this guys shoes, I would spend some serious money on certification. Nothing, not even formal education is more voluble than a high level certification in your chosen area. If you have high level certification and education... all the better.
This signature has Super Cow Powers
Learn about a specific industry and become proficient with the tools that they use.
For example, learn about sales/marketing and learn how to code with either IRI or AcNielsen or both. Learn about finance and Bloomberg APIs, etc.
You'll do MUCH better if you come across as someone who understands business but also knows how to code as opposed to someone who's just a god at coding.
Jesus used to be my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
all your knowledge of 'protocols' and 'languages' .. if you're .. nothing
.. employers are realizing more and more
..
probably amounts to little or nothing
still working tech support you probably aren't
talented enough to do anything else
wrong with that, tho you might want to change
your line of work
honestly, folks - how long did you expect this
stupid situation of all us kids making beaucoup
$$$ just for knowing how to design a web page to
last?
lately that these 'skills' aren't really skills
at all - they're just collections of trivia
i hate to be the one to burst your bubble, puppy,
but you're making $13/hr because you Deserve it.
make a play for management - become one of those
bright-eyed bushy tailed assholes the rest of us
hate, do nose-candy in the elevator and go home
and kick your dog at night out of frustration just
because you refuse to see it
or, maybe computers aren't the thing for you
they always need folks to do drywall work
to sum up : "post-dotcom-boom gen-blech kids -
grow up, learn to work for a living, and quit
fucking Whining. go ask your grandparents what
it was like to live during the depression, and
listen to what they have to say if they don't
slap the taste out of your mouth first"
Most of the technicly adept and smart employers know that tech certifications are pretty much a bunch of BS, but some still require it...
I hear this a lot on Slashdot and similar places. However, I hear just the opposite when talking to people in the employment field.
I'm US Navy, 19 years, and looking to retire shortly and enter the IT field. I've been repeatedly told by head hunters, employment agencies, etc. that military people who get out and have their certs have little trouble finding a job. Those who don't have their certs, despite having equivalent military training and experience, have a much tougher time. One head hunter told me that he won't even take resumes from ITs (Information Technologists) unless they have civilian certs.
"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
You're better off selecting one or two specific areas and focusing on getting experience within it.
Can't get a job without experience, can't get any experience without a job...
Everyone is going to post how you need a degree, do your time, and experience.
But... what you really need is a niche. Something that makes you special. What currently separates you from the 1,000s of other people looking to advance in the IT field.
A couple of good examples of niche areas are video encoding/decoding, foreign languages, streaming media, strange languages, etc...
Lets face it, many jobs have special needs, find an area that you can excel in. A recent example of a niche that earned me a job interview was Python. Not too many people know the language(of course everyone of them will respond to this statement), and I was able to get an interview(sadly not a job).
You can forget about more pay. The untold truth is that nobody outside of the top 10% of income earners has increased their income in the past 30 years. The bubble was your last great chance. It's pretty much downhill from here. On the bright side, Boston like NY, LA, SF probably is in the midst of a BIG housing bubble. Shortly that monument to optimism will come crashing down and your rent will fall, slightly.
I'm glad people are starting to come around on this. Certs can be gained with a few weekends of crash courses, but degrees by their nature take a lot of time. Plus degrees last longer credibility-wise... what sounds better: a Windows 2000 Server/MCSE cert or a Masters in Info Sys Technology earned in 2000? The first is getting close to useless now that Win 2k3 server is out and everyone is moving to Linux anyway (or should ;) ) while the second is still good because it isn't so limited in scope.
I've always said a portfolio should be worth much more than a cert, but then again I'm not a hiring manager.
that I've noticed anyway, is that the percentage of people who are employed in IT and in over their heads hasn't really gone down a lot since the dot com bust. I still run into people all the time who don't know squat. Of course, I also work for a gigantic corporation...
I am sure that some guy who has been kicking around COBOL (and only COBOL) for 30 years will be an invaluable asset to your web design firm, sir. He most certainly should be lead on deciding which development languages to go with for your web applications and network design infrastructure (token ring managed COBOL).
(Disclaimer: Not trolling COBOL, but I was looking for old, recognizeable, and slightly less - ah - "cross platform" than, say, C)
Not to say parent doesn't have a point with people reading, say, a Slashdot article on a recent release of, say, Haskell, and then adding that to their skill sets, but I hate trimming down my resume trying to guess what my sexiest skills are for a given position out of fear that I may seem like a skillsmonger. There should be a little tick box on the resume that says, "Look, I get bored, I don't have a life, I go and spend a month learning a new skillset for fun. What's the point in having a huge IQ unless I put it to work for me?"
Certain parts of the country have been hit much harder than others. So instead of being in competition with 200 resumes you'll be in competition with 5,000. Look for a job in alternate locations or be willing to relocate. Its hard and kinda crazy to leave your family and friends but since you're starting out the experience might be worth it. You can come back "the victor". I did this.
Or you could find some non profit orgs out there and offer to spruce up their systems and get them going - for free! It could wind up being more experience and responsibility than you might even get for money. Great references too! And a song in your heart. Proves to yourself that you know all you say you do on the resume.
The finaly point is to DO SOMETHING. Just sending out resumes and learning are not enough. Use some of it in creative ways or at least try to.
Good luck.
Code up something nifty on your spare time. Time is probably the only thing you have plenty of, if you are unemployed, and the open source community will be grateful :)
"...but i know my shit..."
But apparently you don't even know about capitalization...communication skills are essential. I'd guess that you are doing trivial stuff, like removing virii from windows machines, reinstalling windows, etc., in small businesses in small town usa. Trust me, you don't know shit...:-)
Yourself, your abilities, a product, your product, just learn it. A professional salesman is a hard employee to find and they're expensive once you find a real one.
This might sound trite but it's the truth.
My "order takers" calling themself's "salesmen" make 45-50k. My real salesmen make 80k+.
And no, it doesn't mater what you sell (see above)
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
If you don't feel your skills are worth money, then neither do I...
Lots of good ideas from someone whose been there:
1. Write your own software: even if you don't succeed you'll learn skills that make you employable gold. On a side note, people that code without hardware/networking skills are crap. I'd rather employ someone that has written his own shareware app then someone fresh out of college.
2. Be a "jack of all trades" that specializes in one or two key areas. I want people who know their shit in their primary job role, but also somebody that can help me print bulk mailouts/move furniture/make ID badges/asst Netadmin/etc...
3. You can prove yourself with or without an education. But it is a lot tougher to do and takes a lot longer without one.
4. You get in the door with a short/sharp resume. 99% of your employment is your interview. Dress well, yessir/nossir me and you'll probably be considered.
Management
That's a real shame, because I have gotten lots of work due to my ability to make randomly purchased stuff work together. My current company likes to buy "best of breed" software and then have a few people like me make all of the various little packages talk to each other.
So, I have a 10 year skillset in "one inch deep" stuff. Things like custom-made Perl/ABAP/JS/Java/(etc) connectors, web reporting stuff, etc.
Maybe you are lucky and have a CEO who doesn't buy everything they hear about on the golf course...
-WS
An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
After seeing the headhunters at my former company at work, it almost seemed like they would pick names out of a hat. I would say about 75% of the hires they picked would either leave or get fired within 6 months. The systems director I worked for told me he didn't care about certifications, that he'd rather have someone who set up their own network at home and actually had some hands on experience versus someone who got their answers from the book then regurgitated them when their tests came.
~S
This is the sagest of the posts. Applications and interviews are made to hire $13/hr people. You need a good solid niche, general smarts, and attitude.
Being a genius in a box does crap. Network.
Jim Weller
Hell, I was able to get out of that trap by doing a good job at my current employer and getting raises or promotions. This guy is asking for "moving up the IT ladder". You don't have to change jobs to move "up". If you work in a place where there is not any room to move up, you can work at your current wage or even less (or even volunteer) if there is a good possibility of moving up or gaining skills that can get you better pay.
If you can't get any real experience or improve you skills you could always pay money to get a cert. That works for some ppl. Also, a degree (any) would help. Many employers require a degree or "equivalent experience". (Don't the job notices say that?)
Agreed. I pretty much *expect* people to have some sort of a college degree...and personally, at least a 4-year, and not from DeVry. If you don't, I immediately think "Why not?" Since I don't tend to think of the default human condition to be one of brilliance, I'm sorry to say that my prejudices do not lead me to believe that you're just too smart for college. ;)
Also, there are limiting social aspects to not having a degree, and if you come off like a troll in interviews, you are not going to get hired. Being able to talk about college experiences--which your future boss and interviewer probably had--is one way to find common ground. My current uber-boss is from near London, and being able to just chat with him about where I lived in that city when I did a semester abroad allowed us to establish some common ground that made the interview go must more smoothly.
Anyway, go get that sheepskin.
--- Where's my car, and why are these grass stains on my pants?
The value of certs varies depending on the audience that's seeing them. If you're one of several hundred applicants for a position, a head hunter will use certs/college degrees/years of experience to whittle that number down to a reasonable number for them to look at. In this case the certs are worth something.
However speaking as a hiring manager, I basically ignore them. I am more interested in past employment history, the candidates ability to solve technical questions given during the interview, and a general feeling for whether or not I think the person will get along well with the team.
Having military experience will definitely work in your favor, I found that the best candidate was someone who spent some time in the military, and has then had a couple of years inthe civilian world to adjust to the differences. Plus, the military experience, especially if you do tech work in the military, will many times get you past that initial culling the headhunters do if they don't get too many responses.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -RAH
A well written resume will indicate their familiarity will different skills. I personally, (as a developer with ~5 year exp.) have "Expert", "Proficient", and "Familiar With" quantifiers with my skills. I only have a couple under expert and a half dozen at Proficient, but a couple dozen under "familiar with".
My point is don't automatically disqualify people who learn quickly and like to pick up new things. However, I would agree with you if they didn't quantify their expirience with each and had a whole crap load of listings.
Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
You probably know a few people in your field who left the service before you did. Give them a call. Networking gets you jobs a lot more reliably than headhunters do, especially dumbass headhunters who ignore qualifications like yours.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Oh, bullshit. I'm going back to school for CS, because a bachelors from a four-year university trumps all other certs. When I hired my replacement, I expected to be swimming in applicants, but wasn't. We also specified that my replacement had at least a bachelor's, which is probably why we only got SEVEN resumes.
Spending money on certs is a waste. Spending money on a real education is smart.
For a second there, I thought this was a dating technique for lonely geeks.
Working in IT sucks. There is no "normal career route." Unless you mean:
1. Go to school to obtain sheepskin
2. Apply everywhere
3. Relocate across the country to the one place that took you
4. Get pidgeon-holed into an absurdly narrow field of work (like IBM DB2 Index Optimizer), get treated like crap for 5 years, and get laid off once your field becomes sufficiently obsolete.
5. Unemployment, Ramen, Plasma Donation
6. Lather, Rince, Repeat.
I think I'll become a college professor.
dinner: it's what's for beer
1) A certification can be taken away from you. Which is what happened when MS switched from NT4 to win2k. A degree from an accredited institution cannot.
2) A cert means your are familiar with a particular technology. You are qualified to be a code monkey or a hardware monkey. A degree means you understand more than that just where the buttons are.
If you want to move up the ladder, you need a least a 4 year degree. All but the lowest levels of management are out of reach to you right now. A degree shows that you
1) Have been trained to think critially.
2) Have a background in theory
3) Have been trained to communicate (English classes are NOT a waste of time).
4) Were forced to deal with people who do not think as you do, with other priorities and values.
5) Have the patience to slog through 4 years of work before getting your reward.
6) You know how to work independently and also as part of a team.
The best combo is degree + exp. + certs. But it looks like you have experience, and with a degree that should help. I assume that while in school you would let the certs lapse, but if you can keep up on them you would be in a great position. And you may decide that there is more to life than technology and go into a completely different field. Be happy at what you do.
In our situation, we hired a guy with certs but no degree and he had to work independently. He cratered out. THen we hired a guy with both a degree and certs and I *am* impressed.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Oh, bullshit. I'm going back to school for CS, because a bachelors from a four-year university trumps all other certs. When I hired my replacement, I expected to be swimming in applicants, but wasn't. We also specified that my replacement had at least a bachelor's, which is probably why we only got SEVEN resumes.
Spending money on certs is a waste. Spending money on a real education is smart.
I couldn't agree more! Get a real degree.
I know I certainly wouldn't high someone "up the ladder" without a minimum of degree for any hardcore programming job. Not a diploma, or a "certificate" from one of these little private "schools" - but an actual university (or college for you Americans) degree which comes with a strong theoretical background.
During the dot-com bubble I remember all these people coming out who knew html or flash from these 6 month "schools" claiming to be programmers. And they got jobs because... well everyone got a job with stock options out the wing wang. Then when the bust occurred they all were the first to get laid off and couldn't understand why they couldn't get another job. Because you're not real computer scientists/software engineers! So you learned a few of the "hot" skills for this year, it won't help you learning new ones unless you have the theoretical background.
So go get a CS degree, but not an MIS or any other such flush certificate. Cisco is good, I hear they make shit good money. But until you get the CS degree don't expect to get anywhere unless you're really lucky.
I actually agree with the OP. Having loads of stuff on your CV makes you look like you have only a superficial understanding of the subjects. if a CV comes accross your desk and someone with 3 years dev experience knows Java, C++, VB, perl, javascript, C#, Oracle . . . . then you have to question how indepth this individual knows these platforms.
That's different from saying you've got experience in Analysis. Design, Team leader stuff. etc.
The Romans didn't find algebra very challenging, because X was always 10
This answer is going to cost me an arm and a leg in karma, but what the heck. That's what it's for, right?
Show some employer loyalty.
I just did a hire about 4 months ago. We chewed through resumes for about 6 months before we found someone that we felt would fit. Something that we noticed and ended up using as a filter rule was whether or not a person would stick with a job for more than 6 months. Generally as a rule of thumb, you really want to stick out a job, unless its absolutely hellacious, for about three years. I'd really recommend five, to be honest. That way you're not viewed as someone contaminated with the so-called 'Dotcom Disease.'
We really wanted someone that once we've invested time, money, and training in to make a contribution to our projects for more than the time an intern would. Most !Dotcoms are similar in their opinions.
Actually, upon considering it, what this really ought to be relabeled as rather than 'employer loyalty' as 'resume care and feeding'. Your career will live and die by it. Take care of it and it will take care of you. Taking lots of short gigs to try to climb quickly scares off a lot of hiring folk.
I could go on ponticating, but I am sure that you're sick of it already. ;)
Do you know why the road less traveled by is littered with the bones of the unwary?
This may all be true, but note that what you're saying is the 180 degree opposite of what he's saying.
I've grown up in a small town (population: 2000), escaped to the city for a few years, but have found myself right back here just for the money/experience.
In Toronto I was stuck in the same rut you are. But back here in my home-town, I've been employed by the local Pulp/Paper mill who, in the past 3 years, has built itself a pretty nice network. I am one of two IT persons, have had the opportunity to learn many things (complex networking, fibre termination, PBX admin, any MS server/service you could shake a stick at, practical DR, security, patch management, version control, etc... experience.
Moreless, we're free to do what we want, so long as we can justify it. Currently, with the introduction of digital cell service (yes... we're just getting digital now, that's the price you pay for small town life) I've been given the freedom to build a network monitoring app that will notify the on-call IT person of any network issues (similar to 'Angel')
At $50,000/year CDN, and only paying $450/month in rent (utils included), I think things are working out pretty well here.
Anyhow, might be something to consider if you don't mind living in the middle of nowhere and possibly working as part of the manufacturing industry.
My resume says that I work on a project that competes with Microsoft Exchange. I also have listed IETF working groups that I participate in. (What, you don't? Find one that interests you and get involved.) It also shows an open source project I maintained for the $UNIVERSITY for over eight years.
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
that's because of the outsourcing and work visas being issued. I am also from Boston, at the MIT flea market I heard of a guy who got laid off and they hired some guy on a year work visa from india to fill his job (This is HP).
time for a new labor movment, keep jobs here, keep money here (in Boston...all of you in India can fight globalization keeping WalMart and Microsoft out if you want, I have no problem with that)
First of all, depth of skill will come more from a large company than a small one. If you wish depth of skill, get your foot in the door someplace big.
If you want to learn something in everything, go with a smaller company. You'll have to deal with almost everything. During the last year at a small company, I've had to learn VB, Java, ASP, Magic, Crystal Reports, SQL Server 2000, Windows Server 2000/2003, LDAP and Active Directory, Red Hat, as well as plenty of hardware and software troubleshooting methods. The only previous experience I have is a CIS degree.
If you want to program or manage a network, this would be a great way to go. Go for the 4-year degree, pick up some systems analysis, some database work, and write a few small programs to build a code portfolio.
If you want to manage the department, go with the MIS degree and maybe an MBA (so you can deal with management types). Learn about systems analysis and especially design. Keep your programming skills up while waiting for that Big Promotion. Once you're sufficiently seasoned, go with a larger company, and pay your dues there for a year or two. Pick up some programming skills in your spare time, and try to get into a project leadership position. A successful project or two will go a long way toward the critical promotion.
Why post anonymously with all the weak language?
Those of us who refuse to get degrees for whatever reason should stand up about the emperor's new clothes.
Degrees are a perception, and that's it. Skills come from the ability to really learn and synthesize, something that is not a real requirement when getting a (4 year) degree, which is more about the ability to suck up and regurgitate.
I went to college for 4 years (two different majors). Big waste of time and money. Grades never were bad or anything, I just quit. I saw the economy going to shit and decided to get a job while I still could. Best choice I ever made.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I don't know where to get certified for that though
the gym
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.
Well, you could move to India with all your skills and make $10K a year. Me, I currently work for AT&T as a support tech for voice messaging platforms in the local services division. It's a telecom/computer type of job, pays fairly well. But with the telecom and IT fields as bad as they are, I've enrolled in nursing school starting this fall. In two years' time, I'll have another associate's degree, but this one will guarantee me $23-$30 an hour, base pay, in a field guaranteed to have no shortage of jobs for the next 10-15 years, and a highly portable skill at that.
way too many people add technologies to their resume, when what we employers look for is some knowledge about our industry.
do you know what makes media companies different from grocery stores, or pharmaceutical companies? try to find an industry you like, then learn about it and maybe do some volunteer work, interning or something like that. it will get you much farther than another cert.
...and start worrying about who you know.
If someone knows you, respects you, and happens to come into a position to offer a job, it almost doesn't matter what your skills set is. On the other hand, if someone who is offering a job doesn't know you, you almost certainly don't have what they are looking for.
What are you doing outside of work? If you're not spending time getting to know your local colleagues (via users groups, seminars, book groups, etc. etc.), you'll have to rely on lucking into your next job...and luck is pretty hard to come by these days.
Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
Yeah but they feed, clothe and house you right? Well, and stick you in the middle of some desert so you can get killed so Halliburton can make a buck, but I digress. :)
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
A working knowledge of the local language where much of the outsourcing is going couldn't hurt. Yes, I know most of India's IT shops speak english as their primary language, but I suspect farmers in southern california are at an advantage if they speak Spanish too. Knowledge of whatever is spoken in Bejing or Bangalore is valuable in corporate IT today.
And the parent article wrote. "An RHCE is worth more than a Linux+ because its a damn site harder."
If the original question was "moving up the ladder". More detail-oriented certs may give you a stronger base at the bottom of the ladder; but to move up, you need management skills, not "how to read the manual of another router" classes.
I think most managers up the ladder are generalists, not specialists.
An MSCE is fine if you want to support windows...
I don't know. Getting an MCSE means that you learn the Microsoft way of doing things. Look at how well they do things. I prefer good old fashioned practical experience to certification. When you go for an MCSE, you learn things in the lab, which really doesn't translate to real world experience and expectations.
SiO2
I'm thoroughly convinced this is a stupid attitude to take, but it might just be my experience.
I couldn't count on both hands and both feet the number of people who have tried to tell me that the way they do something is better. I ask them where they learned "their way", and they say they saw it in a book or some teacher told them. Then, they do it, and it doesn't work very well. They ask me where I learned my way, and I tell them: I screwed it up a bunch of times until I got it right - experience.
There are benefits to a degree, of course. If they have good marks and all that from a good school, you know they were a studious worker and kept priorities straight and they're well-rounded. However, when it comes right down to it, 8 years of theory packed in and put up against 8 years of solid experience are no match. Eight years of good experience, with or without prior education, will mop the floor with theory.
I think hiring "lower" jobs on degree is fine. Hiring higher jobs on degree is stupid if you let it become a major obstacle to people who may have a ton of experience, but no degree.
And no, I don't have a degree, but I have experience. Factor that in to my credibility on this statement as you see fit.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Yes!!! Small companies are where real learning can start simply because you have to wear so many hats. Larger companies are better for getting depth in a particular skill, but smaller ones force you to learn enough about a lot of things -- Jack of all trades, master of many.
My first job was with a tiny engineering company (can you tell
But before that I learned the entire industry and business processes from product design through inventory management, through manufacturing and on to marketing and sales. Only drawback was the miniscule salary, but that experience parlays itself into much higher pay once you leave.
You'd most likely run into a lot of problems
:)
:)
:) :)
:)
with people's attitudes doing something like that
BUT, you would definitely get laid once a day that
way if you put in the requisite time calling.
Having worked in market research industry, I'd say your chances (depending
on personality and phone skills) are about 1 in 1000 calls saying yes.
Of course, you have to bear in mind the percentage of women and the mental state it would take to say
yes to a total stranger on the phone. Beggars can't be choosers, they say.
On the other hand, if you go to a club and just start walking up to women and ask if they'd like
to go home and sleep with you, you can get laid every night almost without question. You just
have to ask the right NUMBER of women.
Really though, if you want something in life you really need to speak up for yourself.
Unless you ask some girl in an offensive way with their boyfriend breathing down their neck, you'll most likely not get punched out
Worst case scenario is they say no. whooopee, big deal, MOVE ON lol, the faster you move through the
number of women the more of the evening you'll have to enjoy her
Yes, it IS that easy.
Hell, if I was female and even partially cute I'd probably be writing this from my private plane at the moment ROTFL
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I was able to get out of that trap by doing a good job at my current employer
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For those of us who aren't waxing our bosses' cars it's more like:
"I did a good job at my current employer and my boss got a performance award. I did a better job at my current employer and my boss got a promotion. I got the 'you worthless ungrateful undeserving lump of crap employee' on my performance evals."
Oh right. It's reverse psychology. "We're not beating you up, we're encouraging you to excel."
Uh-huh... after three years I finally caught on.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Why not learn it in the real world, then just pass the MCSE? That's what I did, and the exams were a cakewalk. It's not like you are learning everything about Windows Active Directory from some MCSE book.
If you don't know it already, you shouldn't be taking the test. The problem is that so many people have done exactly that. Diluting the skilled job seekers with thier rebootive approach to problem solving.
That is why you break it down by proficiency. In my resume I write I am proficient in C++/Java and everything else I know, I put into "very knowledgeable" or "knowledgeable" bucket. Most of my knowledge is derived from experience so I make sure to list the projected in which I used a particular language/technology. One thing you never do is to list something that you really don't have experience in. This way, you can avoid looking like a buffoon if the subject ever arises in an interview.
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One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
Asking a programmer if they have x years of experience in any specific language is a lot like asking a carpenter how many years of experience he has with a certain brand of hammer. It is a stupid question and doesn't help you understand that programmer's ability at all. Saying you need a programmer with any more than 4 years of experience in a particular paradigm is also as stupid as asking a carpenter if he's had years of experience using a hammer. Just as a person can master a hammer in a day or two, any competent programmer can master a paradigm in 3 or 4 years. If it takes them any longer you don't want them.
Unfortunately this concept is beyond most catberts and hiring managers. It is best to just tell the non-technical person you talk to at a company that you are an expert in the inflated skill set they say they need (but never do, it has to do with H1B stuff...), and then let the real programmers who really know what they need do the technical interview and decide if you are a "good fit" for the job.
I know I'm probably coming in too late for this to be noticed, but I'll give it a go anyway. My suggestion is to upgrade your non-technical skills. People think of software as an antisocial field but, as practiced in the real world, it can be intensely social. I'm not saying you should go out and get an MBA, or that you should ever give up coding, or anything like that. However, if you really want your resume to stand out from all those other people who also have the requisite technical skills, there's no better way than to show some capacity for initiative, leadership, mentoring, etc. Open source can be great for that - not just writing something on your own, but actually coordinating a group of other people on a project. Just participating in such a project in a proactive and constructive way would set you apart from the hundreds of other technically skilled but socially stunted folks that every employer can find by the hundred.
That's just my two cents, of course, but it's the two cents of a guy who - unlike 90% of those commenting - actually has a decisive role in a lot of hiring decisions.
Slashdot - News for Herds. Stuff that Splatters.
With the economy still on the rocks and a bear chasing your ass, you've only got two choices:
1. Specialize in a specific element. Whatever that element may be, learn as much as you can about it. Certification is great and all, but hey, getting one takes some money and time... which any other john doe can do. The best example i remember is C++ programmers. Programmers make plenty of money, usually, but if you look around at job listings, those that are looking for high/expert skills in c++ are always unfilled but pay top dollar. Why? Cause there ain't many people that can qualify for those jobs. I know I can't. Same goes with Java. At the university I work for, there was a position open for a java programmer. That listing was up for over half a year, in the end they didn't hire anyone because none of the applicants were qualified enough.
2. Diversify, and I do not mean more cs. Your skills are far more valuable if you can relate it to another field. For example, bioinformatics. I have a couple of friends in that field and they've got cs classes up the ass but what sets them apart is the knowledge of biology, specifically genetics. Personally, I write code most of the day, not as a programmer but as a statistical analyst. When you branch out, your job possibilities open up.
Thats my 2 cents...
Or "perhaps"... have you ever considered the possibility that the explanation is over your head? Perhaps... that you might need to spend four years studying the theory in order to "get" the explanation? What, exactly, do you think we were doing for the four years we spent getting our degrees? Do you think you're so infinitely smarter than we are that you can grasp in a fifteen-minute overview concepts that we spent four years just learning the basics of? And the funny thing is... if you respond to this, you'll probably respond in indignation, with no clue as to why I find this attitude so insulting. (Don't worry, though - the "sum up the knowledge you've spent your life attaining in a 30-minute overview" attitude is common - very prevalent among management).
Usually, the reason the book or the teacher told them to do it that way has to do with increased flexibility, better resistance to change, better memory management, faster processing, etc. These are things that you don't learn by trial and error alone. What's that you say? Memory management and speed optimization is a waste of time? Processors are so fast that it's not worth saving a couple thousand clock cycles? Memory is so cheap you can just use it as you need it? Portability is for canoes? Yeah, I've probably spent many, many years of my life cleaning up the mess you left behind doing things "expediently".
I guess I should be fortunate, though - with enough people running around doing things wrong because it "looks the same to me, and I should know, since I've been looking at it for a while now" leaves plenty of job security for those of us who understand the theory and can apply it.
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
You've got a ton of experience though. For someone without a ton of experience, a degree is going to be extremely helpful.
Furthermore, you're going to be given more chances to succeed along the way if you have a degree. Sure, this can happen without a degree, but it's more likely to happen with one.
I ask them where they learned "their way", and they say they saw it in a book or some teacher told them. Then, they do it, and it doesn't work very well.
You talk to some of the bad people then. Most individuals I've spoken to you got a good four year degree wouldn't say "I read it" or "Such-And-Such Professor". They'd have tried it out, and would tell you that it worked when they were designing x-system.
On a similiar vein, I've spoken with individuals with a ton of experience and no degree who can't think out of their own little box, "because it worked this way one time I did it, so this is the only way to do it".
However, when it comes right down to it, 8 years of theory packed in and put up against 8 years of solid experience are no match. Eight years of good experience, with or without prior education, will mop the floor with theory.
I would tend to agree with you. But I'd say that 4 years of theory, and 4 years of experience, mops the floor with 8 years of experience, or even 12 years of experience for that matter. That little bit of theory can make you start thinking in different ways, and provide what any number of years of experience cannot.
I've seen guys with 25 years of experience who I wouldn't hire again in a heartbeat. Why? They've been wonderful when it comes to following the procedure, but when you ask them to figure something out on their own, they flounder for days and waste a ton of the companies money. Whereas in similiar veins I've seen people with little to no experience, but a good amount of theory, pick it up in no time. Why? They were taught how to think outside of the box, something plenty of experienced individuals never learn.
There are plenty of jobs, but they are no longer in Boston, or the Bay Area. Those places are wastelands, where there are 50 coders for every job. Get on a few job boards, and look in places you normally wouldn't go; Tennessee, Lousiana, Nebraska, Carolina, Arkansas, New Mexico, Iowa, Idaho, Montana, etc. They all have medium to big cities, but no one pays attention. Move somewhere cheap, get a decent paying job, and live like a king. If you miss the pax humana of the big city, buy a plane ticket and go there for a weekend each month. You can afford it with your new disposable income. Good Luck!
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
I agree that a degree doesn't matter much with people who have experience. It is not necessarily even programming experience, but business experience that can make them valuable.
One of the best DBA's I've ever worked with is Keith Grey, who up until his late thirties or early fourties was predominantly a welder who'd built up a good business doing custom signs. Then he got exposed to computers and got "the bug."
He's learned the skills to use the tools (mostly Oracle), but always from a business-need perspective. You have no idea how much difference that makes in the success of a project and the buy-in from the users -- he can talk to them, and honestly believes their problems are more important than the technical issues.
I've worked with other examples of stellar non-degreed consultants, and more than my fair share of "Masters" and "Doctorate" grads who couldn't program to save their lives. (The worst added "#include <stdio.h>" before every I/O function call -- stunning for "18 months" of C programming and a masters degree.)
A university degree tells you the junior candidate was able to not only put up with a bunch of coursework they weren't interested in, but that they did the job well enough to pass. If you've ever tried to get a prima-donna programmer to write documentation, you know how important it is that staff be willing to do the parts of the job they despise.
I find that a degree with 3 years experience is usually comparable to 5-6 years experience without a degree. I consider most certification and vendor-provided exams to be useless when selecting staff. Anyone who needs a cert to be confident in their skills doesn't know their stuff well enough.
Granted, that attitude won't get you past the resume skillset filters in an HR department, but they aren't the ones who'll be making a hiring decision. Better you should partner with a reputable consulting agency than try to pad your resume with certs -- a good agency gets candidates through the HR filter based on the reputation of their own screening process.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Yeah, that Leondardo fella from Vinci... what a loser!
The main flaw in your argument is that it ignores the difference between Leonardo da Vinci and the rest of us. Leonardo da Vinci was a fucking genious. The rest of us are either retarded, moronic, or vegetable wannabe.
Also, the "swiss army knife" of employees has been and will be around for a long time. They are called "system administrators" and "secretaries." It sounds like you fall into the "system administrator" category.
Vote in November. You won't regret it.
Hm,
... and?
... there is so much more.
generalists are a dime to dozen. Probably you are right
In 10 years it is irrelevant wether you are a MSCE(what ever that is) or a CCNP(what ever that is) or a A+ or a CCNA(what ever that is).
Do you know:
a) CORBA
b) SQL
c) UML
d) Java and/or C++
e) assembler (regardless what proc)
f) J2EE/SOAP/an OO data base
g) CVS or an other revision controll system
h) RUP/XP/SCRUM (regardless what)
i) COCOMO/FPA or any other
Do you have any clue about systems architecture?
Well, some people might call that a "generalist". I call it a basic education in Software Engineering.
Frankly:
1) I would try to get any job which you find interesting. Put it on your resume as further reference for your next job after that one.
2) if you lack money I would ask your parents/friends for a loan and try to follow 1)
In the long run nothing is more revarding, than a general education about EVERYTHING.
Computers, CS, programming, is not just programming in your 1st language you met in school
angel'o'sphere
P.S. I would never hire a specialist except probably for a decent DBA.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
I've met many degreed peoplel that didn't know squat and many without degrees that really knew their stuff. And conversely as well.
What that means to me is what the person has done and their potential for learning is more important than whether some school gave them a gold star or not. You can apply yourself and learn a great deal in or out of school.
Sure, you can't judge recent grads too well by this measure, but they have little experience anyways.
A degree is more valuable in computing now than it was 15 or 20 years ago, mainly because coursework has caught up. But even so, 4 years in school doesn't beat 6 to 8 years real world experience if the person is sharp.
It's called a "jobless recovery" - this kind of recession doesn't see new jobs created because things are now more automated. At least, there won't be any jobs created that you'd want to work. Care for a job in the growing field of fast-food service, anyone?
Good luck "moving up" with only a bachelor's degree in today's IT market. When entry-level positions are requiring bachelor's degree + several years of experience, and they get filled by people with masters degrees and half a decade of experience on top of that, you should be fortunate to be employed at all - many of us are not, myself included.
On the upside, there will be a slew of baby boomers retiring in the next couple of years (provided they're able to, considering they've probably driven themselves into debt throughout their lives, not enabling them to retire). There will also be much less people graduating with their bachelor's in IT due to the slump. Combined, that means there will likely be more positions opening up in general, providing a management shortage (provided the positions don't get antiquated with their last inhabitant), and a decreased amount of "fresh blood" looking for work.
I'd say chances are good that things will improve - at least marginally - within the decade.
I doubt that's too encouraging, though.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Why not work on a project to keep your skills and mind sharp, make networking/people connections, show employers you can work on a project, successfully, without constant supervision, and at least let your next employer know that you were pro-active not re-active and that your attitude wasn't of bumming around wondering when your next entitlement was comming from. (Feel free to define "entitlement" for yourself. It could be many things.)
I was shocked when I started my present job, where one 4 year degreed CS graduate told me that he would never work on an open source project because he would never want to lose control of the code he wrote. The shock was not that he wanted control of his code, but that he would use little else but open source programs and that he was not very forward looking to his next job (which he wanted in software developement - talk about losing of control of code) nor the recoginition of open source's growing part in software use, and recipricating back to that which he so freely uses.
While I am currently unable to contribute code to any open source project, I have contributed my translating abilities to one: BibleTime - Spanish translation. Once I get better at C and C++, I will absolutely be contributing to open source projects. Heck, maybe I can find a niche to fill and start my own open source project someday.
You have vaild points. Stop posting as an AC. Make yourself known.
SiO2
I think that people have to examine the total cost of a 4 year degree. Figure that a IT worker probably gets 25k a year at the minimum for a person with no degree, at an entry level job. Each year at a private University costs about 40,000 a year with food, housing, books, tuition, and misc bullshit. The average stay at college is now 5 years for a Bachelors especially for long programs like engineering, cs, and business mostly due to increasing credit counts and more required academic courses (as opposed to easier electives) which increase the likelihood of having to repeat classes. That is 200k for a private college degree. Add to that 5 years of missing out on a shitty 25k a year job and its $325k. The question is whether a person is really going to make 325 thousand dollars more over their working life with a degree than without. In most industries the answer is probably hovering around the just barely mark these days because so many college grad's still end up working shit jobs unrelated to their major for less than 50k and often less than 35k.
I am a person who does a lot better in working environments than formal education environments. I hate school. I cannot stand it. I am a habitual underachiever. At work on the contrary I quickly become well liked and virtually indispensible. My current supervisor pretty much flat out told the guy who hired me that I was not going to work out for her at all when I interviewed. Within 3 days she went back to him and told him she "loved me." Now a few months later she wants me to go with her to her new job when her contract is up saying that she does not know how she can work without me.
This makes not going back to school and doing another 2 years of college bullshit, a lot more appealing.
I am a tech generalist but I mostly focus on pc config/repair and networking. I am working on my CCNP through cisco academy which is actually a great place to network with other people cause a lot of the other students and the instructors work for big companies and government agencies. At this point if I had to choose between having my degree and having my CCNP with a security clearance I would definitely choose the latter.
I think that working for a couple years and then perhaps finishing my degree in business is much more useful since I will already be employed and experienced and I can parlay my degree directly into a management slot.
It's only insulting because you misunderstood.
A fresh-faced lad out of school is a well-rounded individual, but is not likely to have the necessary working knowledge to dig into things right away and be good at their trade. This is true of many things, not just computing. My point is simply that some people who are hiring (frequently, those who don't know what they actually want in an applicant) will stubbornly insist on a degree, and I think that's moronic. You get some kid out of school who knows all about the theoretical basis for the relational model, for example, but has no clue how to actually apply that to a specific implementation. In fact, relational database design is a PERFECT example of that problem: few tools implement the theory properly, so executing it requires you to figure out what they're actually doing. That kind of ingrained knowledge comes with experience, not book study.
On top of that, what irks me about the whole "gotta get that degree" mentality is that some of us just hate school. I do. I hate it. I never want to go back. I hate waiting for the slow kids to play catch up, and I hate getting behind in things I don't want to do. I can learn from books. I just memorize stuff that I hear or read, I don't need a teacher. Why should the fact that I don't need to learn that way be held against me over a peice of paper?
Book study is an integral part of developing your skills. Don't get me wrong - I have an entire room of books stacked full of everything from obsolete RFC printouts to a book about optimizing specific Python tasks. I just think that making it the most important part of a decision - particularly later on in career development - in a field where hands on knowledge can be gained by pretty much anyone is dumb.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
The social solution to this is obvious. IT workers working nowadays are not working 40 hour weeks, they're working 50 and 60 hour weeks. Three IT workers working 40 hour weeks are doing the same amount of work as two working 60 hour weeks. If people working now cut back on the hours working, there would be more jobs. While the bosses and their sycophants always portray this as an individual thing between a boss and a worker, it is anything but. The bosses and owners have done massive lobbying as an organized unit to try to change the law so that the few IT workers currently eligible for overtime now won't get it any more. Since the organized IT worker force to counteract the well-organized, well-funded IT company campaign to to do this is weak and small currently, this law will probably pass and you will be worse off.
The IT bosses and owners are all acting as basically one organized unit and using their pull as such in Washington DC and elsewhere. The sycophants here are telling you that the hours of free work beyond 40 hours that you do is an individual thing between you and your boss that is your individual responsibility to be in a contract, and a union or the government should not come in and put pressure to help you out there. They also tell you to increase your skills (although, as you've said, it's done nothing for you), or to "network" more than the next guy to find the few job slots that open up - perhaps you can grab it faster than the next guy if you're quick enough.
Of course the real answer is you need to communicate and organize with other IT workers, and join or form some type of association, union, guild or whatever which acts independently but also puts pressure on the government. Otherwise you just have hundreds of thousands of individual little mice or birds running around trying to find diminishing pieces of food.
in I.T. who said, "I wish I never got my degree, it was a waste of time".
How often in real life do you use something like clock cycles and memory management for most of the stuff in IT?
Don't get me wrong - I know how important this stuff is. However, for most programming tasks, knowing the paging size or the clock cycle or the best algorithm at hand does not matter.
Because out there, you are going to be designing databases and coding stuff that can be looked up from Google in a minute or two. And all the other stuff that you need in the industry really comes from experience, something that you never really learn until you go out there and work.
And for niche tasks, you will always have people who went to school to learn it - both the segments cater to very different requirements of the industry.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both, school cannot teach you experience and experience will not equal school.
Certification programs are only slightly more worthless than degrees, if we're being honest with ourselves. Employers should really wise up and take into account the fact that any clown can drink their way through college doing the bare minimum and show up for the same commencement ceremony as the handful of students who worked their asses off. Because of their more specific nature, certificates can be more valid, but the only way to truly see if someone can do the job is to hire them and have them do it. You can probably tell who can't do the job without anything more than the conventional application/resume/interview, but even with that there are no guarantees. I know, life isn't fair, but fuck, we really need to fix shit like this. There are so many problems with how we look at things like hiring and education, and if we fixed those, I honestly believe that people would be happier and much better off in general. Not to mention everything could be more efficient in general, which would result in pay increases.*
*You thought I was some poor, naive bastard. Of course the pay increases would only be for executives because that is also how things work and that needs to be stopped now.
I am feeling fat and sassy
Although the typical IT job lasts about 3 years, a career is a very long time, so it doesn't make much sense taking a scattershot approach trying to find which fad will let you eke out a few extra pesos. Think long and hard about what you really want to do over the next several years, then decide on a course of action to get you to that goal. It could take a degree (and lots of intern work), or it could involve doing whatever it takes to get onboard that really interesting project you've read about. If you're not doing something you really love, you're just going to end up being a frequently laid-off, low paid, cog in some machine.
One piece of advice when interviewing a prospective employer: Take a look at the server room. The orderliness of that room is a very accurate indicator of the professionalism of the people you'll be working with.
Ask me about my vow of silence!
"that Leondardo fella" was a master of all trades, which is why we still remember him.
Better to do one thing extraordinarily well, them know a bit about 20 things, at least in this job market. Being able to do 20 things extraordinarily well puts you up there with Leondardo da Vinci.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
I didn't have the resources for an degree of any kind.
I, too, engaged in "lateral mobility", hopping sideways from support job to support job, learning every step of the way, but eventually, you reach a glass ceiling and the realization that support is designed specifically to burn workers out so that advancement isn't necessary.
The only way out was to start thinking like a competitive businessperson, partner with other hungry compatriots also found in dead-end positions (although in different fields), and go into some tech business or other on your own.
I've only had one bon fide w2 "job" for a total of about 6 mos since 1999, and that was just because it was there. Nevertheless, I had to push hard entrpreneurially to get that position. It wasn't a job - it was a deal. Jobs, to me, are for making new contacts and raising capital for whatever business it is you're really supposed to be in.
It's hard, but unlike the job treadmill, there's a future that isn't dependent on someone else.
I'm not saying certifications aren't worth it. I just have no experience with them, and I've never met a client that asked me for one. Granted, my clients are small...
In today's competative job environment, being a specialist is the surest way not to get hired, especially in light of how rapidly software developement and IT continue to progress. Granted there are a few niche jobs for highly specialized professionals, but most job postings I see list required/desired skills that simply didn't exist, or were merely academic 5 years ago.
In addition, I've learned more since getting my degree and working as a software engineer than I ever learned during my formal education. This leads me to the belief that pigeon-holing your self as a (Insert Language Here) Programmer is BAD BAD BAD. The first Language I learned was ADA 95, then Modula 3, C, C++, Java, SML, Perl. Since graduating in '01 I haven't used any of those languages except for C, while learning a slew of new ones on the job. I've picked up Powerbuilder, XML, php, VB and C# as required as well as MFC and DLL programming techniques.
The process of acquiring programming skills in a new language was a painless process becuase a technical education is as much about learning HOW TO LEARN as anything else.
Also, the single most overlooked IT skill is written/verbal communication. If you're the greatest programmer ever but write worse than your average 3rd grader you'll find yourself in that $10/hour tech support job.
Writing a coherent, professional resume, cover letter, and correspondance are all pre-interview interviews. I've been in charge of some IT hiring in the past and when a piss poor resume came across my desk it was met with directional flatulance and a trip to the circular file. The content was virtually irrelevant. I should be able to read a resume and not still have major questions about an applicants skill sets or experience.