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Rescuers Prep for Hybrid Car Accidents
mykepredko writes "I've driven a Toyota Prius for two years now and found this CNN article regarding the training required to rescue people trapped in hybrid cars to be slightly alarming. As an EE, I would expect that the electrical system is designed to be as well protected and fail-safe as possible in an accident, but if I'm ever in an accident, I'll make sure that any responders are wearing rubber gloves and boots and if any cutting is done, the roof is the only area they touch." Toyota has an accident guide indicating that if the airbags deploy, the hybrid battery pack should be automatically isolated.
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
Is that this news is shocking.
If you are in an accident bad enough to need "responders" to get you out, odds are not great that you'll be conscious.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Never mind you electric car drivers, what about we poor bicyclists and pedestrians who can't hear you coming?
I'd like to suggest new electric cars be equipped with Jetsons-style "whuwuwuwuwuuwu" sounds as a safety feature. Actually, this might very well be an untapped commercial opportunity: custom car sound effects. Drive a wagon train! Drive a steam train! Drive the U.S.S. Enterprise! Be ironic and drive a Hummer!
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
I have heard that electrical wiring in the new hybrids run through all sorts of places, including roof and roof posts.
I have also heard of their being multiple batteries.
Also, some new mini-van with a glass roof has extra reinforced roof posts that my fire dept's hydraulic cutting tools cound't cut.
Finally, the presence of air bags everywhere all over the car frame is great, they can explode at random times.
New cars are making it really hard to get people out of them safely after an accident.
Programming is simply the application of logic to creativity
Yes, and in other accidents the gas tank could blow up, yada yada. I'm curious about battery acid myself.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
And this is opposed to the safety of an internal combustion engine?
Where any accident will involve the spraying and leaking of a dozen gallons if highly flammable fluid?
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
vs. dumb-asses.
500 volts? 45 volts is enough to kill you... at 10 amperes!
Seriously, aren't we nerds, or something?!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I have a lot of resistance to that sort of humor.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
if any cutting is done, the roof is the only area they touch.
And if the car is upside down?
Racing cars have a standard placed cut off for the motor/fuel line inside the drivers door for rescuers, why not something like that for the hybrids?
Trolling is a art,
Copyright 2004 Exxon Mobile. All rights reserved. This material may be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
You're right, something is fishy. ExxonMobil probably wouldn't spell thier own name incorrectly.
But the big question remains: will the radio still work after an accident? Anyone ever notice in those shows you see about car accident rescues (Rescue 911, cops, etc.), everytime they arrive at the scene of an accident, the radio is NEVER on?
My dad has a Civic Hybrid. All the necessary cabling runs under the car next to the frame rails. If rescuers are haveing to cut that deep, you're SOL anyways. Normally rescuers have to use the jaws of life on doors, and the associated A,B,C pillars. No electricals go thru there, other than side airbag sensors.
Sounds like another internet scare article put out by a 'reputible' source...
From the article:
The battery powering the electric motor carries as much as 500 volts, more than 40 times the strength of a standard battery.
Karma: Can there be a void?
.. -. - . .-. .-. --- -...
Judging by the size of the hybrids that I've seen, I doubt that after being hit by any of the overly large gas guzzling SUV's on the road today, there will be much car to actually cut.
The problem with these things isn't the danger of electricity, it's the danger of being under my suburban!
Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor
"They know not to cut into a hybrid's doors -- that's where many of the cables are --" Why in the world would there be high voltage in the doors? Maybe they mean the door sills? Or did Toyota save a buck by standardizing all their motors on 500V?
Anyone driving a vehicle which is sufficiently loud (e.g. cycle with loud pipes) to prevent others from hearing the quieter vehicles should be subjected to immediate confiscation of their sonic assault weapon. This would have the worthwhile effect of turning the ex-driver into a pedestrian, so that they could appreciate the hazards of overly loud vehicles from the opposite perspective.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
You see a lot of panicy stuff about how dangerous
all that electrical energy in the batteries is,
but when it comes down to it if the car has the
same range as a similar normal car then there is
exactly the same amount of energy in the batteries
as there would normally be in a car's fuel tank.
But these aren't pure electric cars. They only
have a few km of range on the batteries and most
of the energy is in the fuel tank just like any
other car.
Extended comments at Gizmodo makes it clear that this is 99% rumor/FUD. Does anyone bother chacking the facts on these things before they're posted?
OK,
- B
http://www.bradheintz.com/
- updated
That's it. You're grounded young man!
I had pre-airbags 1980's Saab 9000 that that had explosive charges on the seat belt mounts in the door pillars intended to tighten the seat belts at the moment of impact.
Both door posts had warning stickers not to crush the car or bad things would happen.
I guess the junkyard crushing machine operators got occassional surprises!
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
Next generation hybrids--such as the Lexus V6-hybrid SUV--will have the eletric motor running the rear wheels while the gas motor runs the front wheels. This should cut down on dangers as the motors will be quite isolated from each other.
However, in ANY car wreck, a badly mangled car is dangerous.
Last year, the Rallye International de Quebec, up in Quebec City (which I'm sure most of you could've guessed from the name), had a Toyota Prius rally car running. Toyota was doing in the CARS series to show off that their hybrids could hold up to that kind of abuse.
The car sucked... badly... in almost all of the stages, because it was really fast for the first mile or two until it ran out of battery, and then the dinky motor wouldn't be able to give it enough power to keep up with anyone.
There was one stage at the hippodrome, though, where they were running a mile or so course on a twisty infield and part of a horse track. It was very competitive on there. It was so surreal though to have one roaring rally car after another go flying by, and then when the Prius ran, the first car went screaming by, followed a bit later by the Prius -- where all you could hear was the tires on the dirt/gravel.
Toyota say that the hybrid battery is supposed to be isolated if the airbag activates. So it's fuss over nothing.
The diesel in the VW is proven technology, but I was also worried about how the hybrids would be in an accident. Plus, the Golf TDI runs like an NBA player from his kids' wives. I know it will go 125MPH, but I was still accelerating when I decided to back off.
The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
As the owner of a 2004 Prius, and being an engineer, I have never felt in danger.
First, the High Voltage system is isolated from the car body completely. Not even "ground" is shared. The cables and parts are shrouded in tough orange plastic.
Second, the article is incorrect on two points: the battery is only 200+ Volts, not 500V. The 500V is only between the inverter and motors.
Also, there are no high voltage components in the doors.
Because the airbag accelerometers are used to monitor whether the car is in an accident, the main battery relay shuts off right next to the battery long before any metal starts twisting its way into high voltage areas. The bigger danger is the battery (several NiMH cells) being split open, but it is protected by its location and special shrouds.
My biggest fear in an accident is that the E-personnel are scared into paralysis by rumors, and don't rescue me.
BTW, you can see the Toyota Emergency Responder guide at http://techinfo.toyota.com/
That 20,000 volts for the HID isn't a problem, because the wattage is low. If you stuck your finger in it, it'd shock you for an instant, and then not be able to provide enough current to keep shocking you. You'd be 100% A-OK Super-great deal A+++
-Jesse
Nothing says "unprofessional job" like wrinkles in your duct tape.
But after an accident, any part of the wiring harness could be energized relative to the frame -- you just don't know, for example, if the dome light circuit is going to happen to be connected to the same bank of circuits that were smushed into the Big Orange Cable in a front-quarter collision that also happened to damage the fail-safe circuit breakers.
It's a big deal -- I imagine your training is similar to what the rural fire volunteers are getting here in Colorado: if it's a Prius, don't touch it!
Reminds me of the college kids who like to play with radiation warning labels: ``heh-heh. My laptop has a radiation sticker on it! Cool! heh-heh.'' The problem is that if you get in (for example) a car accident and one of those labels is visible anywhere around the car, there is no first aid for you until the radiologic response unit arrives from across town.
Diesel fuel is a lot safer in that respect. A freind of mine who drove a diesel car was in an accident once, and he and his girlfriend had to be cut out. If they'd been driving a petrol car there'd have been a bigger chance that they'd have been burned to a crisp.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
of a guy who felt the call of nature and went to relieve himself behind a hedge, as you do. Little did he know that there was an electric fence running through the hedge - he soon found out the hard way that water conducts!
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Those batteries can be pretty nasty. I'm not just talking the battery Acid either. Some of the batteries in electric cars have to be heated to 200 degrees to work properly. And a lot of them contain some pretty nasty and toxic chemicals. Far worse than gasoline.
And if they explode due to a short or a fire, they'll not only act like shrapnel, but very poisonous shrapnel. I wonder if there are any safety regs dealing with this subject?
As an EE, I would expect that the electrical system is designed to be as well protected and fail-safe as possible, but...
As an intelligent human being, I'd expect a micro-car full of batteries to be likely to kill anyone stupid enough to ground on it after it has been mangled in a wreck. As someone having no overt desire to drive a giant battery, I have no reason to pretend otherwise. As a thoughtful individual, I won't be surprised when CNN points out how high pressure Hydrogen tanks are also an extreme hazard in accidents, and some other xE is astonished by the consequences of his eco-choice.
We have been refining automotive internal combustion systems for about a century. Everyone involved, from mechanics and insurance adjusters to rescue personnel, has an inherent understanding of the dangers. No great evolutionary change in our species has occurred during that time; we're still the same super-brained primates we were back then. So it stands to reason that we're going to have to learn the lessons in order to cope with these new machines, and that we'll do it the hard way; one nasty wreck after another...
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
"Hybrid Car Accident"? Is that where an SUV crashes into a mini, and the result averages out to a sadan?
Table-ized A.I.
There are two problems with the above: it neglects the rate of energy transfer and the barrier to it. With a gasoline engine, both are reasonably high unless someone's walking around with matches, and emergency crews are smart enough not to smoke. The risk of shock is higher than detonation.
Also, there's no analogous concept of capacitance for gasoline. However, if the wrong cable gets severed, your ass is fried with an electric. Also, because stored electrical energy is less obvious than a puddle of gasoline, it's harder to avoid.
So there's about 5 reasons why one need fear hybrids in a crash more than regular cars
Another load of premium male bovine excrement from out friends in Texas and Munich/Detroit.
My THIRD Prius, an 04 (I've owned an 01 and 03 - both completely problem-free), is currently sitting in Port Newark. I am also a retired rescue captain so I can state with some authority that Prius fundamental design is such that it would take a deliberate act of stupidity for a rescue technician to manage to make contact with both the positive AND negative high voltage leads at the same time since both are ground-isolated and separately encased in conduit.
In real-fife rear-end accidents, only ONE Prius battery was damaged and it's safety issue was some minimal leakage of electrolyte; NOT "Deadly High Voltage"!
In fact, the Japanese national fire safety bureau (the official name escapes me at the moment) insisted that Toyota place the HV conduit inboard far enough that the "Jaws Of Life" can't possibly make contact in one or two "bites".
Sigh...
"I don't understand it???
I'm afraid of it!
KILL IT!!!"
T_O_M
I think I speak for many of us when I say I'm baffled that you have both battery acid AND gasoline on top of your head in sufficient quantities to correctly surmise which has a lower vapor pressure.
Tim
On the face of it, that's a good assumption. But in REALITY, you need to do whatever you have to to get basic information like WHERE ARE YOU? Sometimes people need a jolt to calm down.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
That'll be tough; his comedy license isn't current. Besides, he's been charged with battery in the 9th circuit court...and though he's been conducting himself well, the outlook is negative and he'll probably end up extradited to his native Poland for incarceration. Luckily, he's an optimistic sort, so at least the cell's Pole will be positive.
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
Most truck/cycle accidents are caused by trucks turning across the path of cycles. If the bright headlight isn't enough to make the truck driver aware of the cycle, noise in the cycle's wake isn't going to help. It is especially not going to help if the trucker rides an unmuffled bike on his off hours and can't hear very well himself.
500 volts? 45 volts is enough to kill you... at 10 amperes!
Seriously, aren't we nerds, or something?!
Apparently not as much of a nerd as you'd like to think, since you forgot to factor in frequency and duration.
High currents can be passed through (over) the human body at higher frequency a) because they tend to travel over the surface of the body and b) because the nervous system is less likely to react to frequencies 100Hz and upwards.
Also, you really should have mentioned duration, since this governs the energy delivered (which is, after all, what causes the most physical damage). Energy is Voltage * Current * Time. Electric fencers operate in the kV range, but only(!) deliver a few joules.
dumb-asses
Back at ya. ;)
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
Judging from http://techinfo.toyota.com's 2004 Prius responder guide, Toyota has been quite responsible in routing the cables under the floor pan, where emergency responders are unlikely to need to go. The system is also designed with a relay powered by the 12 volt auxiliary battery that the car's computer has to enable in order for the high voltage lines to be energized. If the car deploys its air bags, that relay is designed to open, disconnecting the high voltage pack from the rest of the car.
In other words, it doesn't sound as though Toyota are being morons about the whole thing.
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
I have heard from my friends in the automotive industry (take that vague description FWIW) that the trend is for all vehicles, not just hybrid and electric vehicles, to move towards drive-by-wire systems over the next ten years or so. So any rescue problems that a Prius will have, so could any other motor vehicle. This isn't going to stop me from buying a Prius or Civic Hybrid next time I'm in the market for a car.
Don't cut into the gas tank, don't cut into the battery either.
If only it was completely electric, then the greatest danger of all (gasoline spilling and igniting or exploding) would be eliminated. And an impact switch can isolate the battery pack in case of collision. But, they just keep making foreign-oil-dependent bombs on wheels for us to drive around in. (as well as deploying other kinds of bombs in other places to maintain our oil supply)
I invoke the Kirchoff Voltage Law and declare this pun-ful thread to be dead.
Is there any resistance to this idea?
-Cyc
/.'s 10 Millionth
power = voltage * current
energy = power * time
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The "Giant Battery" in the original Prius was pretty small, not much bigger than two or three standard car batteries (depends on what you drive). I believe the battery in the new Prius is even smaller. And it's not a micro-car-- it's roughly the same size as the new honda accords. Small battery, average-sized sedan.
It wouldn't be a big deal for a rescue crew to just pull it out before they cut anywhere else, making sure the power is cut. Probably a good idea with a normal battery in a wreck that bad, on the off chance that a spark would ignite any gas vapour.
I would suggest that the government standardize a location for a cutoff switch, though, making this sort of thing easy and painless for rescue crews. No such thing exists for fuel lines (except in race cars) but that hasn't stopped us from driving.
By the same token, high-pressure hydrogen is not as big of a deal as most people are assuming, either. Crack the tank, and where does the hydrogen go? Up, quickly. It doesn't linger around at ground level, or pool under or inside the car like gasoline.
In general, cars are large, dangerous machines. They involve hundreds of thousands of watts of power, and nothing you can ever do will make handling that sort of power perfectly safe, whether the power is sitting still in a gasoline tank, a large battery, or a hydrogen cannister; or converted to kinetic and thermal energy in the form of a two-ton metal box moving at high velocity and a large steel engine block filled with blistering-hot oil and coolant. Better driver training standards and enforcement (why so many speeding tickets, but so few tickets for unsignalled lane changes?) in America would go farther than anything else.
I'm an ELECTRIC car. I don't go very fast or very far, and when folks see you driving me, they'll think you're gay.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I was working on a car powered by nitro-glycerin. It runs great, but blows up a city block if you get into accident. I originally deemed this as a feature. A sort of deterrent against tailgating. Better re-evaluate...
Did you hear? There are conveyances that carry TOXIC, FLAMMABLE fuel in LARGE TANKS and in HOSES from the tank to the engine!!! If the conveyances get hit, there could be an EXPLOSION!! If I'm in an accident, I'll make sure that any responders are wearing fireproof hazmat suits, and if any cutting is done, the roof is the only area they touch!
Yeah, right.
Toyota isn't taking this one sitting down.
Toyota Press Release
Toyota Prius Engine Safety in the Event of an Accident
For Immediate Release
(05/04/2004) Torrance, CA
The Toyota Prius gas-electric hybrid vehicle has many safeguards to help ensure safe operation for drivers and protection of emergency response professionals in the event of an accident. The high voltage batteries are contained in an extremely strong protective case located in a portion of the vehicle very unlikely to be penetrated in a collision. Drivetrain management computers continuously monitor all system functions performing hundreds of tests each minute. In the event an abnormal condition is detected, all high voltage circuits are disabled and high voltage is contained inside the protective case.
Further, two safety mechanisms are in place that shut off the engine and disconnect high voltage if an airbag is deployed or if there is a sudden deceleration indicative of an accident. High voltage cables and components are heavily insulated, shielded, isolated and the cables are painted bright orange for easy identification. The controller box is a sealed unit and has warning labels.
To reassure emergency response professionals when the Prius was introduced in 2000, Toyota placed advertisements in trade publications and sent letters to industry organizations announcing the availability and dissemination of Emergency Response Guides. Today, all Emergency Response Guides for Toyota's alternative fuel vehicles, including Prius, RAV 4 EV, CNG Camry and Highlander Fuel Cell Hybrid are available at Toyota's technical information web site and Toyota continues to advertise in appropriate professional publications.
Electrically driven Toyota vehicles like the Prius, RAV 4 EV and e.com have been available in the U.S. since 1998. Like all vehicles, they can be involved in emergency situations. They have established a good track record for electrical safety and we are not aware of a battery case breach or any personal injury in the U.S. related to hybrid or EV electrical systems.
# # #
Contact:
Toyota Product News
Apparently Toyota is pretty protective of it's technology.
$ man woman *
-bash:
Hopefully won't be.
My dept. has rep from Hurst come by yearly to let us know what ways of killing us the auto companies have come up with next. Then we spend an evening tearing up cars. Not a bad night, it's normally pretty fun.
But the key is that we try to stay very aware of what's in the newest cars, and even sometimes a few of us will go a dealership to look at the new models, and take a look at the key things we need to keep an eye out for.
While the new technologies have made a greater chance of surviving the wreck, they've also increased the time that you're likely to be stuck in the car if we need to go cutting.
My favorite so far are the polycarbonate windows. They don't shatter in an accident, and they compress and store energy, waiting like a coiled spring. Hit them with a sledge hammer and they won't break. But start cutting into the roof, and they try to launch the roof off the car if they've been compressed and bent.
Also fun is the poor guy who rolls his bmw 745, has some minor dents/scratches in the roof, but can't get it out (doors won't unlock). However, we can't shatter out the windows, so we have to tear off the doors. Instead of just replacing the glass, the car is likely totaled by insurance.
1 - the path through the body is the key - if it passes through the heart at some level (low mA) you can/will/do get V-fib (VF)
2 - you must have voltage to get to the heart - less than 80 will seldom do it, but this depends on skin moisture and pH, how much water you have on board, do you drink Gatorade or just sweat alot...
3 - high-current electrocutions do kill people, because you don't get this high current instantly or constantly - imagine 2 A, followed by a trailing off to 80 mA - gotcha.
4 - Gauss plays some role - if your skin carries the current because it is wet or otherwise highly ocnductive, you may feel a shock at a lower voltage, but no cardiac issues (except fright).
5 - Cars are running on DC, which requires that you basically make contact with two dissimilarly polarized surfaces - it cannot ground to the earth - old electronics technicians only use one hand for this reason.
Stick a 9-volt on your tongue and tell us about it.
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
It is difficult, but possible, to have the electric motor run out of juice.
Flooring the thing for a few miles would probably do it. I remember taking the bugger to 100 and that engine was working way too hard to fuel the electric battery.
The one time I ran out of juice from normal usage was going through Western New Mexico to Albuquerque with no stops. There is a long incline going into the city after a slight incline over the whole trip. The car wasn't ready for it and had to slow down to 55.
Yes, that motor is only good enough to keep you sustained at 55 by itself.
(Note: I still heartily reccomend the car for most everyone, and the 2004 model has a higher HP gas engine so I'm sure the problem isn't pronounced.)
My other negative reaction is, if I'm in the middle of nowhere and it dies, or I go to start it and it just doesn't work... then what? I can do a lot to get a conventional vehicle back on the road. With this thing it either works or you are done.
1. Roadside assistances comes standard during the warranty period.
2. It's a Toyota - when's the last time you had a Toyota break down? Any Toyota I've ever had or been involved with has just ran and ran and ran....
$ man woman *
-bash:
Absolutely right. Body path is the real key - the values given there were mostly (I suspect) wrt to direct application to the heart. At least I hope so, I've received a lot of shocks at 12-24v+ & 200ma+ and gotten little other than a tingle. I've also been 110'ed a few times and a couple higher, but not cross body thank Bog! :) although one 220 across my hand left me with a couple nice burn scars, and hurt worse later on than at the time.
:) Good thing I was pretty young, probably would kill me nowadays...
Actually the worst one I ever received was cross-body ?v at ?mA - from the spark plug wires on an older truck when I brushed my forearm against a couple wires - I was soaked to the skin, playing with the carburetor settings on an old Dodge truck. The plug wires were also soaked. Didn't knock me down but it hurt like hell for a second or so until my arm lost contact with the wires. The only place I was "grounded" was my other forearm resting on the edge of the engine compartment. Slight burns in both places where my bare arms were touching.
That one sucked a lot more than the couple of 110v I got. I went inside and quite literally had the twitches for a while. There is no sensation that is even slightly like it. In hindsight later that night I realized I should have known that the slight glow around the wiring was arcing along the wires due to the rain coating them. Those buggers have a lot of voltage running thru them. Learned a good lesson there, I did.
Long time ago, but I can still remember how much that one hurt...moral of the story is, don't fuck around a open engine compartment with the motor running when you and it are both soaked by rain
Don't tell me I'm a lucky bastard, I know it already...
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
The chance of irregular heartbeat following electrocution is something like double the norm for 72 hours post shock for common voltage/amp combinations. Until the HMOs got involved, it was not uncommon to be hospitalized for 1-3 days following even relatively minor (110 VAC) experiences when the victim/patient had symptoms like muscle contracture.
Like almost everything doctors do, it was based on (bad) experiences "he's fine, send him home." D'oh.
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
First off, I am an engineer and have studied the Prius quite a bit. High Voltage safety on production hybrid/electric vehicles is great. First off, 500 volts is absolutely wrong, the battery pack in the Prius runs at a hair over 200 volts. Second, no high voltage wiring is run in the doors or roof or anywhere besides under the undercarriage of the vehicle between the packs and the inverters. Third, there are main cutoff relays located inside the battery boxes that are hooked to an inertial switch that will disable any voltage coming from the boxes if an impact is detected. This is the same switch that kills your fuel pump if you get into a wreck. Fourth, the high voltage pack is completely isolated from the vehicle's chassis, unlike the 12-volt system which has one side attached to the frame. What this means is should through a near-impossible combination of events one of the leads get cut into the frame and become energized, it would be impossible for you to complete a circuit and get shocked because the other end is still isolated. (houshold wiring can shock you because your feet complete a circuit through the earth, but this isn't the case in a vehicle!) If both ends of the pack were to connect to the frame, the fuse built into the pack would blow from the short-circuit. The only real danger is from a ruptured battery pack itself, but that's pretty easy to spot. Nothing to see here, move along.