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Rescuers Prep for Hybrid Car Accidents
mykepredko writes "I've driven a Toyota Prius for two years now and found this CNN article regarding the training required to rescue people trapped in hybrid cars to be slightly alarming. As an EE, I would expect that the electrical system is designed to be as well protected and fail-safe as possible in an accident, but if I'm ever in an accident, I'll make sure that any responders are wearing rubber gloves and boots and if any cutting is done, the roof is the only area they touch." Toyota has an accident guide indicating that if the airbags deploy, the hybrid battery pack should be automatically isolated.
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
Is that this news is shocking.
If you are in an accident bad enough to need "responders" to get you out, odds are not great that you'll be conscious.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Never mind you electric car drivers, what about we poor bicyclists and pedestrians who can't hear you coming?
I'd like to suggest new electric cars be equipped with Jetsons-style "whuwuwuwuwuuwu" sounds as a safety feature. Actually, this might very well be an untapped commercial opportunity: custom car sound effects. Drive a wagon train! Drive a steam train! Drive the U.S.S. Enterprise! Be ironic and drive a Hummer!
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
I have heard that electrical wiring in the new hybrids run through all sorts of places, including roof and roof posts.
I have also heard of their being multiple batteries.
Also, some new mini-van with a glass roof has extra reinforced roof posts that my fire dept's hydraulic cutting tools cound't cut.
Finally, the presence of air bags everywhere all over the car frame is great, they can explode at random times.
New cars are making it really hard to get people out of them safely after an accident.
Programming is simply the application of logic to creativity
Yes, and in other accidents the gas tank could blow up, yada yada. I'm curious about battery acid myself.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
And this is opposed to the safety of an internal combustion engine?
Where any accident will involve the spraying and leaking of a dozen gallons if highly flammable fluid?
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
vs. dumb-asses.
500 volts? 45 volts is enough to kill you... at 10 amperes!
Seriously, aren't we nerds, or something?!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I have a lot of resistance to that sort of humor.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
if any cutting is done, the roof is the only area they touch.
And if the car is upside down?
Racing cars have a standard placed cut off for the motor/fuel line inside the drivers door for rescuers, why not something like that for the hybrids?
Trolling is a art,
Copyright 2004 Exxon Mobile. All rights reserved. This material may be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
You're right, something is fishy. ExxonMobil probably wouldn't spell thier own name incorrectly.
But the big question remains: will the radio still work after an accident? Anyone ever notice in those shows you see about car accident rescues (Rescue 911, cops, etc.), everytime they arrive at the scene of an accident, the radio is NEVER on?
My dad has a Civic Hybrid. All the necessary cabling runs under the car next to the frame rails. If rescuers are haveing to cut that deep, you're SOL anyways. Normally rescuers have to use the jaws of life on doors, and the associated A,B,C pillars. No electricals go thru there, other than side airbag sensors.
Sounds like another internet scare article put out by a 'reputible' source...
From the article:
The battery powering the electric motor carries as much as 500 volts, more than 40 times the strength of a standard battery.
Karma: Can there be a void?
.. -. - . .-. .-. --- -...
Judging by the size of the hybrids that I've seen, I doubt that after being hit by any of the overly large gas guzzling SUV's on the road today, there will be much car to actually cut.
The problem with these things isn't the danger of electricity, it's the danger of being under my suburban!
Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor
Anyone driving a vehicle which is sufficiently loud (e.g. cycle with loud pipes) to prevent others from hearing the quieter vehicles should be subjected to immediate confiscation of their sonic assault weapon. This would have the worthwhile effect of turning the ex-driver into a pedestrian, so that they could appreciate the hazards of overly loud vehicles from the opposite perspective.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
You see a lot of panicy stuff about how dangerous
all that electrical energy in the batteries is,
but when it comes down to it if the car has the
same range as a similar normal car then there is
exactly the same amount of energy in the batteries
as there would normally be in a car's fuel tank.
But these aren't pure electric cars. They only
have a few km of range on the batteries and most
of the energy is in the fuel tank just like any
other car.
Extended comments at Gizmodo makes it clear that this is 99% rumor/FUD. Does anyone bother chacking the facts on these things before they're posted?
OK,
- B
http://www.bradheintz.com/
- updated
I had pre-airbags 1980's Saab 9000 that that had explosive charges on the seat belt mounts in the door pillars intended to tighten the seat belts at the moment of impact.
Both door posts had warning stickers not to crush the car or bad things would happen.
I guess the junkyard crushing machine operators got occassional surprises!
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
Last year, the Rallye International de Quebec, up in Quebec City (which I'm sure most of you could've guessed from the name), had a Toyota Prius rally car running. Toyota was doing in the CARS series to show off that their hybrids could hold up to that kind of abuse.
The car sucked... badly... in almost all of the stages, because it was really fast for the first mile or two until it ran out of battery, and then the dinky motor wouldn't be able to give it enough power to keep up with anyone.
There was one stage at the hippodrome, though, where they were running a mile or so course on a twisty infield and part of a horse track. It was very competitive on there. It was so surreal though to have one roaring rally car after another go flying by, and then when the Prius ran, the first car went screaming by, followed a bit later by the Prius -- where all you could hear was the tires on the dirt/gravel.
The diesel in the VW is proven technology, but I was also worried about how the hybrids would be in an accident. Plus, the Golf TDI runs like an NBA player from his kids' wives. I know it will go 125MPH, but I was still accelerating when I decided to back off.
The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
As the owner of a 2004 Prius, and being an engineer, I have never felt in danger.
First, the High Voltage system is isolated from the car body completely. Not even "ground" is shared. The cables and parts are shrouded in tough orange plastic.
Second, the article is incorrect on two points: the battery is only 200+ Volts, not 500V. The 500V is only between the inverter and motors.
Also, there are no high voltage components in the doors.
Because the airbag accelerometers are used to monitor whether the car is in an accident, the main battery relay shuts off right next to the battery long before any metal starts twisting its way into high voltage areas. The bigger danger is the battery (several NiMH cells) being split open, but it is protected by its location and special shrouds.
My biggest fear in an accident is that the E-personnel are scared into paralysis by rumors, and don't rescue me.
BTW, you can see the Toyota Emergency Responder guide at http://techinfo.toyota.com/
But after an accident, any part of the wiring harness could be energized relative to the frame -- you just don't know, for example, if the dome light circuit is going to happen to be connected to the same bank of circuits that were smushed into the Big Orange Cable in a front-quarter collision that also happened to damage the fail-safe circuit breakers.
It's a big deal -- I imagine your training is similar to what the rural fire volunteers are getting here in Colorado: if it's a Prius, don't touch it!
Reminds me of the college kids who like to play with radiation warning labels: ``heh-heh. My laptop has a radiation sticker on it! Cool! heh-heh.'' The problem is that if you get in (for example) a car accident and one of those labels is visible anywhere around the car, there is no first aid for you until the radiologic response unit arrives from across town.
Diesel fuel is a lot safer in that respect. A freind of mine who drove a diesel car was in an accident once, and he and his girlfriend had to be cut out. If they'd been driving a petrol car there'd have been a bigger chance that they'd have been burned to a crisp.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
"Hybrid Car Accident"? Is that where an SUV crashes into a mini, and the result averages out to a sadan?
Table-ized A.I.
There are two problems with the above: it neglects the rate of energy transfer and the barrier to it. With a gasoline engine, both are reasonably high unless someone's walking around with matches, and emergency crews are smart enough not to smoke. The risk of shock is higher than detonation.
Also, there's no analogous concept of capacitance for gasoline. However, if the wrong cable gets severed, your ass is fried with an electric. Also, because stored electrical energy is less obvious than a puddle of gasoline, it's harder to avoid.
So there's about 5 reasons why one need fear hybrids in a crash more than regular cars
Another load of premium male bovine excrement from out friends in Texas and Munich/Detroit.
My THIRD Prius, an 04 (I've owned an 01 and 03 - both completely problem-free), is currently sitting in Port Newark. I am also a retired rescue captain so I can state with some authority that Prius fundamental design is such that it would take a deliberate act of stupidity for a rescue technician to manage to make contact with both the positive AND negative high voltage leads at the same time since both are ground-isolated and separately encased in conduit.
In real-fife rear-end accidents, only ONE Prius battery was damaged and it's safety issue was some minimal leakage of electrolyte; NOT "Deadly High Voltage"!
In fact, the Japanese national fire safety bureau (the official name escapes me at the moment) insisted that Toyota place the HV conduit inboard far enough that the "Jaws Of Life" can't possibly make contact in one or two "bites".
Sigh...
"I don't understand it???
I'm afraid of it!
KILL IT!!!"
T_O_M
The Prius uses NiMH batteries. They have a highly caustic (pH 13.5) electrolyte, but other than that are apparently non-toxic. Vinegar or Boric acid can be used to neutralize any electrolyte that leaks, but leaks are not likely since the solution is absorbed into the cell plates and shouldn't normally leak even when the battery module is cracked.
That'll be tough; his comedy license isn't current. Besides, he's been charged with battery in the 9th circuit court...and though he's been conducting himself well, the outlook is negative and he'll probably end up extradited to his native Poland for incarceration. Luckily, he's an optimistic sort, so at least the cell's Pole will be positive.
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
I invoke the Kirchoff Voltage Law and declare this pun-ful thread to be dead.
Is there any resistance to this idea?
-Cyc
/.'s 10 Millionth
Did you hear? There are conveyances that carry TOXIC, FLAMMABLE fuel in LARGE TANKS and in HOSES from the tank to the engine!!! If the conveyances get hit, there could be an EXPLOSION!! If I'm in an accident, I'll make sure that any responders are wearing fireproof hazmat suits, and if any cutting is done, the roof is the only area they touch!
Yeah, right.
1 - the path through the body is the key - if it passes through the heart at some level (low mA) you can/will/do get V-fib (VF)
2 - you must have voltage to get to the heart - less than 80 will seldom do it, but this depends on skin moisture and pH, how much water you have on board, do you drink Gatorade or just sweat alot...
3 - high-current electrocutions do kill people, because you don't get this high current instantly or constantly - imagine 2 A, followed by a trailing off to 80 mA - gotcha.
4 - Gauss plays some role - if your skin carries the current because it is wet or otherwise highly ocnductive, you may feel a shock at a lower voltage, but no cardiac issues (except fright).
5 - Cars are running on DC, which requires that you basically make contact with two dissimilarly polarized surfaces - it cannot ground to the earth - old electronics technicians only use one hand for this reason.
Stick a 9-volt on your tongue and tell us about it.
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
It is difficult, but possible, to have the electric motor run out of juice.
Flooring the thing for a few miles would probably do it. I remember taking the bugger to 100 and that engine was working way too hard to fuel the electric battery.
The one time I ran out of juice from normal usage was going through Western New Mexico to Albuquerque with no stops. There is a long incline going into the city after a slight incline over the whole trip. The car wasn't ready for it and had to slow down to 55.
Yes, that motor is only good enough to keep you sustained at 55 by itself.
(Note: I still heartily reccomend the car for most everyone, and the 2004 model has a higher HP gas engine so I'm sure the problem isn't pronounced.)