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Is eBay Worse Than Early Sears Catalogs?

prostoalex writes "The New York Times claims eBay can learn a lot from the early Sears catalogs, which promised unconditional returns (postage paid by Sears) in case there is any dissatisfaction with the product even if the product behaves exactly as described. Apparently eBay is doing something right, but with no buyer protection, no seller authentication, and no desire to participate in seller-buyer conflicts, no return policy, can the business model be sustained?"

98 of 438 comments (clear)

  1. eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by bryanp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The closest real life analogy would be the proprietor of an exhibition hall holding a flea market. If you buy something crappy at the flea market from Joe, the building's owners aren't the ones you have a problem with. All they did was rent space and maybe some tables to Joe so he could set up and sell his stuff.

    If you can't deal with this, don't shop on ebay.

    --
    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
    1. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by REBloomfield · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I had this near where I lived, and one of the traders was selling extremely dodgy zip drives (all broken). Refused to give a refund, and threatened to break my neck (in front of witnesses) if I didn't leave their stall. Suffice to say the buildings owners are granted the license to hold such market by the local Authority, and took much interest in the matter, suffice to say money was returned and stall keepers dealt with.

    2. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by phrasebook · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you buy something crappy at the flea market from Joe, the building's owners aren't the ones you have a problem with. All they did was rent space and maybe some tables to Joe

      Yes they are. If they rented the space to Joe and Joe shafts you, then you can take it up with the owners that let him sell there (assuming they have some kind of policies for sellers). Same with ebay. And ebay has the means to implement more checks anyway. It isn't just a street corner.

    3. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by hkroger · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Well, that analogy is not perfect because at the flea market you actually see the product you're buying and you see also the vendor. At eBay you see only some sure_I_m_honest@hotmail.com address and that's only thing you really know about other end.

      That's why there is a huge risk when buying something from eBay.

      And no, I don't buy anything from eBay.

    4. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by Amiga+Lover · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What's the problem with sniping? You're given X amount of time to put in a maximum bid you'll pay. If someone else wants to pay more, they'll pay more be it by sniping or not.

      Say you want to buy a monitor. what's the most you'd pay for it? let's say $100. If someone snipes you at $101 that's not unfair. You didn't want to pay over $100.

      If someone at the last minute pushes the bid up from $50 to $95, and you still have $100 as your top bid, it's not like they're suddenly stealing $45 from you. You wanted to pay $100, you won it for less.

      The only problem I see is people addicted to the dramatics of bidding, by pushing up the price 50c at a time. If that game is part of the fun then... uhhh I guess it's what works for you, personally I use eBay to just buy things.

      Bid your max bid first and leave it. everything is fair afterwards.

    5. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by houghi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they rented the space to Joe and Joe shafts you, then you can take it up with the owners that let him sell there

      Is this also true for other places? e.g. I get shafted by any mortar and brick company, I can take it up with the people who rent them the offices?

      If I am shafted by a OSS reseller, I can take it up by the person who allowed them to sell the product, aka the GNU comunity? (Insert your own SCO reference here.)

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    6. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by Chess_the_cat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you're unhappy about snipers then you must not be entering your maximum bid like you're supposed too. If you do that, then you can't be sniped.

      --
      Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
    7. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by Overzeetop · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, you can. And if there are several complaints, action will probably be taken, depending on the venue. In an enclosed mall, you'd better believe that the mall management will have a talk with the vendor, and their lease will not be renewed unless things shape up.

      Property owners who have high visibility leases, and depend on high visibility and positive consumer attitude are very careful about keeping the image up. One or two lousy stores can drag down the profits of an entire mall, and force good clients to look for retail space elsewhere. No leasees = no money for landlords. They do care.

      Smaller places will be more tolerant as long as the rent checks don't bounce. The bigger the city, the less policing will go on in these "off-main" singles or low volume rentals. The smaller the city, the more careful everybody is. A few really bad trasactions, especially with the wrong people (tip: beware of grandma, she knows everybody in town), can spell doom for a business. If you run a shady business in a small town (say, less than 100,000pop) you can expect to only get leased space from an equally shady landlord, or you'll have to buy your own place.

      Then, of course, there's the local licensing authority. You can always lodge a complaint with the board which grants business licneses. Depending on the rules, it may be possible to get a repeat offender banned form doing business in your town.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    8. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by Kombat · · Score: 3, Informative

      At eBay you see only some sure_I_m_honest@hotmail.com address and that's only thing you really know about other end.

      Well, that, and the feedback.

      Take off the tinfoil hat. If someone has great feedback, you're just as safe trusting them as you would be trusting the stranger you just met at the flea market. Moreso, in fact, because you have no idea if the flea-market guy's customers are satisfied. OK, OK, with one notable exception.

      --
      Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
    9. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by Seumas · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or don't find an investor. I'm $25,000 in the hole for my 5+ year old auction site. I don't even know why I do it. Part fun, part education, part excuse to remain a reclusive hermit in my office avoiding the light of the sun and human contact. :)

      GothicAuctions.com

    10. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by Ulven · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So if you only want to pay $50, only bid $50.

      If someone else comes along at the end of the auction, sees the item and is prepared to pay $95, then you have to top that or lose the item.

      It's the way it works. Just because something has been at $50 so far doesn't mean it'll sell for that.

      If you think it's worth $50, then bid $50. If you think it's woth $50, but bid $100, and then someone else bids $95, you weren't 'trapped' into paying $95, you said you'd pay upto $100. You got it for less, so what's the fuss?

    11. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by GTRacer · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Why NOT sniping? eBay's gone out of its way to explain proxy bidding and make it easy to know how much time is left and to see approximate bid activity.

      I snipe because I'm a cheap bastard and I hate getting into last-minute bid/counterbid wars over rare import games. I know it's a cheesy tactic, but it's not my fault if the current high bidder didn't set an appropriate max bid and I snipe, preventing him from re-bidding.

      Others have already said it, set your max bid to the most you'll spend, and then stand back. Or snipe. There aren't too many other choices.

      Now, I've only bought 16 things on eBay in my 3 years with them. And my first sale has yet to happen. But so far, I'm pleased with eBay and the sellers I deal with. For the most part, any single item I bid on is less than 50 bucks, and often 25, so if I were to get hosed it wouldn't be the end of the universe.

      GTRacer
      - I finally have a star!

      --
      Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
    12. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by galaxy300 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Fraud is the true exception, not successful auctions. If you look at the reported fraud rate(which admittedly, may be a bit smaller than the actual number), it comes in at way under 1%. Most auctions on eBay go off without a hitch, especially if you check the seller's feedback and don't have unrealistic expectations about an auctioned item. Just keep in mind a very simple principle - if it seems too good to be true, it very well might be.

      I've been on eBay for 3 years, have made hundreds of transactions, and have only been burned once. Since the seller never sent me the item promised, I got a full refund from PayPal.

    13. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by Resaurtus · · Score: 3, Informative
      Because people don't think like that. Just about nobody works out the maximum cost they'll be willing to pay for an item, and then decides to buy something if it costs less.
      Yeah, well I work like that.

      I look at the item, decide how much I am willing to pay for it, up the number by a few odd cents in case someone happens to agree with me exactly and bid first. Then I program that number into a bid sniper and let it run. I don't feel bad about it when I loose, they were willing to pay more. I don't loose often.

      1 - The sniper keeps my bid from being nickled and dimed up by people who have no idea what they want to spend. You may like playing bidwars but I'm here to do buisness.
      2 - I can put the snipe in well in advance, and if I find a better item or price before the auction is up I just cancel the snipe, no commitment until the last possible moment.
      3 - If there are 0 bids on an item, most people just pass it by. If theres a bid on it then theres a ton of people who just have to take a shot at it. Its the sellers job to attract people, the buyers job to find good deals, and I'm not going to play spotter for lazy shoppers.

      Think I'm evil yet? Well, let me add one more for you. If I see a Buy It Now auction I intend to snipe down the road, I put in the minimum bid to kill the buy now option.

    14. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by Oliver+Wendell+Jones · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "At least when I buy something in a store and it doesn't go my way I can confront the store owner directly [usually get exchange/refund at that point ;-)]."

      How many times have you been ripped off on ebay? Do you actually know anyone who has?

      I've been using ebay since August of 1998 and in all that time I have been ripped off a grand total of ZERO times in over 150 transactions.

      I have had a few incidents, such as:
      * A buyer who bid up an item and then disappeared before sending any money (I resold the item a few days later for almost as much).

      * A seller who took my money, then sent an e-mail to let me know that they would not be able to ship the item as expected because the quality did not match their expectations (it was something they had ordered to resell) and they refunded my money promptly (via M.O., this was pre-PayPal).

      * A seller who claimed to have shipped a product to me but it never showed up. They then claimed to have shipped it to the wrong address and were reshipping, after another week or so they gave up trying to make up new stories and refunded my money.

      * A seller who sold me a high-end digital camcorder that showed up damaged. I notified him via e-mail and he shipped me another one without waiting for me to return the broken one first.

      Other than the first one, I've encountered these same kinds of issues shopping in real brick & mortar stores and in dealing with various online companies.

      Are there people who get ripped off on ebay? Sure, you betcha. Are there people who get ripped off in real brick & mortar stores? Yep. Online shopping? Yes. From a guy on a street corner? Sure.

      If you're going to shop anywhere then you need to be aware of:

      * Feedback, either through an obvious display like on ebay or by calling the BBB and asking before dealing with a new company

      * Return Policy, especially on anything expensive. A lot of online sellers charge a "restocking fee" which can be as high 15%.

      * READ BEFORE YOU BID. I've done business recently with an electronics liquidator on ebay (userID BuyEssex) and they have really high feedback (55,000+) and a lot of negative feedback. A quick review of the negative feedback shows quotes like "Didn't know item was broken, bad deal" yet when you read the auction description they're replying to you'll see things like "we plugged this in, it DOES NOT POWER ON, sold AS-IS" and then people complain because it doesn't work...

      * And the number 1 rule, as mentioned by previous posters, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

      --
      A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing -- Emo Phillips
    15. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by dasmegabyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Feedback is hardly an accurate way to figure out who's good and who's bad. For one thing, a lot of high volume sellers trade between each other for higher feedback (hence why every feedback is the same..."steller buyer, better than expected, A++++").

      Furthermore, stuff like this happens:

      I just bought a non-working device, it wasn't marked as-is but was missing the proprietary power supply (thus forcing me to build my own, which will take about 10 hours). So I left neutral feedback explaining this caveat emptor situation -- and the seller went back and changed his positive feedback (i had paid the same day) to a negative feedback along with a series of lies claiming I begged for a refund and made unreasonable demands.

      This pissed me off. NEUTRAL + $100 != NEGATIVE + Broken Fucking Device. I did nothing wrong, and now I look bad? It pissed me off even more when the guy emailed me, asking if I wanted to drop BOTH feedbacks under ebay's Mutual Retraction program.

      Essentially, he chose to mar my reputation in the hopes that the damage would cause me to remove my neutral. After all, one negative out of 20 is worse than a neutral out of 850.

      But I'm not going to do it. Ebay isn't my livelihood, and so I don't care that much. But I bet a lot of unsatisfied customers in that 850 did remove their feedback rather than get tagged as a negative buyer.

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    16. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I had this near where I lived, and one of the traders was selling extremely dodgy zip drives (all broken). Refused to give a refund, and threatened to break my neck (in front of witnesses) if I didn't leave their stall.

      A data-drive is not something I would buy at a "Psssst, wanna buy a drive?" place. If it croaks, you may lose your data, which is probably worth more than the $20 or so you save. If you are going into shady-land, then spend it something that does not drag your data down with it. It is almost as bad as:

      "Psssst. You there. Wanna buy a parachute?"

    17. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by bstone · · Score: 5, Insightful

      suffice to say money was returned and stall keepers dealt with.

      Pretty much like eBay deals with sellers who act irresponsibly.

      Actually, with feedback and eBay policing both the buyers and sellers, it's a whole lot better buying on eBay than at a flea market, but the general business model is similar.

      I've been burned a couple of times on eBay, and both of those sellers are now banned. It's a risk that I'm willing to take because I've saved tons of $$$$ and been able to easily buy products that are difficult to find elsewhere.

      New oven ... got one with a small scratch in the corner that I can hardly see ... $600 less than buying it locally. New cook top ... customer return for a small scratch in the glass (like I'm not going to scratch it the first time I use it) ... $500 savings. Items like this are way too difficult to find without the marketplace that eBay provides.

      And ... people have been happy with my junk, too.

      Trying to compare the service that eBay provides with that of a retailer like Sears is disingenuous. On eBay, I'm dealing with the actual seller, and eBay does provide lots of help if there is a problem.

    18. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by ryanwright · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I see a Buy It Now auction I intend to snipe down the road, I put in the minimum bid to kill the buy now option.

      I do the same thing. It bit me in the ass once.

      There was a nice 10" touchpanel for sale. I saw it right when it was listed, Buy It Now for $300. The panel was worth $600 easy, but I needed a question answered before I bought it.

      So I placed a minimum bid of $1.00 to get the BIN option to go away. After the seller answered my question, I asked if he was still willing to sell it at the BIN price. He wasn't. Said he'd received too many questions and wanted to let the auction play out.

      The thing sold for over $550. I should have bought it at $300. Oh well. Thinking back, I could have canceled my bid and BIN would have reappeared since I was the only bidder even after my question was answered. Morally I'm not sure that would have been acceptable, however.

      --
      -Ryan, with the unoriginal sig
    19. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by Dausha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What's the problem with sniping? You're given X amount of time to put in a maximum bid you'll pay. If someone else wants to pay more, they'll pay more be it by sniping . . . .

      The problem with sniping occurs when the "sniper" is sniping without intent to purchase. The sniper may be part of a group bid rigging involved in price fixing, which is a form of conspiracy in restraint of trade.

      If the seller is using a separate account to drive the price up at the last moment, then this may also be criminal. I'm sure in auction case law there is something to be said for when the seller enters into an auction with intent to drive the price up. At the very least he is not dealing in good faith.

      For those of you who despise the Music Industry of colluding to keep the prices artificially high, then out of principle you should be opposed to bid sniping because it supresses competition. Bid sniping suppresses competition the same as price fixing. So, another problem of bid sniping is that it is unfairly (unethically?) suppressing competition.

      Interestingly, the issue is brought up that online auctions should not be comparable to real auctions. The suggestion is that, in real auctions when a new high bid is established, the duration of the bidding period is extended. Also, in the vanderbilt link above, ther is mention of the same facet and its solution by "introducing a 'soft ending' mechanism, the company changes the rules of the bidding process so that any offer made in the last hour automatically triggers an extension of the deadline, removing the incentive for sniping."

      --
      What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
    20. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by angle_slam · · Score: 2, Informative
      I'll also grant that sniping is inconvenient. A lot of things I bid on have non-US timezone ending times, and I'm on dialup. A recipe for frustrating late nights indeed!

      Automated snipers solve that problem. They will bid for you at the last minute (within 10 seconds of the end of the auction). I use Auction Sniper. All you do is enter in the item number and it will place a last minute bid for you automatically. If you don't win, you don't pay.

    21. Re:eBay is not a catalog nor a retail outlet. by black+mariah · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're talking about shill bidding, not sniping. Shill bidding is when a seller bids one of their own items up. Sniping is simply bidding in the last few seconds of an auction to try and catch something at a low price. There's no question that shill bidding is wrong, and the people that do it should be punched in the balls really, really hard. Sniping is only bad for people that want to whine-ass that they couldn't get that TV they wanted because some ass came in on the last 10 seconds of the auction and outbid them. There is a MASSIVE difference, and putting the two in the same category is just plain wrong.

      --
      'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
  2. Can the business model be sustained? by ites · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes.

    Ebay is not a retailer. It is a marketplace.

    Marketplaces do not need to be perfect, they only need to be better than the alternative.

    Ebay is so much better than the real-world alternatives - small ads in newspapers - that people are happy to accept its flaws.

    --
    Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
  3. Not if someone better comes along by ValourX · · Score: 2, Troll

    Well if another auction site comes along that doesn't use the borderline-fraud service that is PayPal and offers superior customer service, decades of business history dictates that eBay will surrender to it.

    The hard part, as Slashdot proves every day with its uncensored comment system, is making people accountable for what they do online.

    -Jem
    1. Re:Not if someone better comes along by Albanach · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Well if another auction site comes along that doesn't use the borderline-fraud service that is PayPal

      I still can't establish if folk really are having trouble with paypal. Sure there are sites filled with complaints, but most of the complaints seem to be folk who had a weak password, saved their password in internet explorer and someone else used it, or small organsiations where they shared the password and someone with access cleaned out the account.

      Paypal has made cheap processing of credit cards available to the masses, and an awful lot of folk are using it every day. Are the number of complaints really that high in comparrison to the level of use, or is it just that a high proportion of its users know how to make websites and complain loudly in their blogs?

    2. Re:Not if someone better comes along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Grasshopper, just take a look at this appropriately named site for the answers to your questions. Why does Paypal suck? Click and read.

    3. Re:Not if someone better comes along by I8TheWorm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I still can't establish if folk really are having trouble with paypal

      I have used paypal for about 2 years now. I had one bad eBay transaction where the seller took the payment, then disappeared. Their e-mail address bounced, their number was disconnected, etc... Paypal "investigated" for less than two weeks, then gave me a full refund.

      My father's paypal account was hacked by someone in Lithuania, who ordered a Raider's jacket. He was also given a full refund by paypal (turns out he was using a weak password).

      I'd say given my experience with paypal that they're far from fraudulous, and will continue to use them. Much like eBay, their service beats the alternative by leaps and bounds.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    4. Re:Not if someone better comes along by ValourX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not necessarily. There is accountability and responsibility in hosting as well as posting. Recently I had the pleasure of reporting the GNAA guy to his ISP's abuse department because he posted to the comment section of my website. Unlike Slashdot, I will not pay to host that kind of trash -- so I recorded his IP address and contacted his ISP (Keycom/Keysurf) as did another person interested in tracking down this asshole. I don't know if we nailed him, but we both did our part to help police the Internet.

      Aside from that, anyone who has a website with a public comment section has the responsibility to remove content which violates the rights of others. In other words if I post hate speech (which is NOT protected "free speech") the owner or administrator of the website has a responsibility to take it down as it serves no possible good and serves to harm innocent parties.

      Likewise an auction site should do its best to eliminate fradulent sellers, and to completely disregard PayPal, a service notorious for robbing its users. If you don't believe me, see www.paypalsucks.com and www.paypalsuit.com among others. I personally have lost money because PayPal decided that they needed to freeze my seller account even though there were no chargebacks or other similar activities pending on my account.

      If eBay were a responsible business, it would be making a lot of changes. As Microsoft has proved, being the most popular exempts you temporarily from being responsible for your customers' safety. I bet -- and you can totally call me on this -- that Microsoft and eBay and many other online businesses will all go down within weeks or months of each other. Internet consumers (or perhaps credit card companies or banks) are going to demand merchant accountability very soon, and the crooks that run PayPal/eBay and other similarly don't-ask-don't-tell online businesses are going to be in a lot of hot water.

      -Jem
    5. Re:Not if someone better comes along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Aside from that, anyone who has a website with a public comment section has the responsibility to remove content which violates the rights of others. In other words if I post hate speech (which is NOT protected "free speech") the owner or administrator of the website has a responsibility to take it down as it serves no possible good and serves to harm innocent parties.

      How exactly do hateful comments do harm to innocent parties? Sure, it's crap and a waste of bandwidth, but I don't see how the GNAA crap can be equated to, say, beating someone. Or even calling them something in person to their face. Also, the law dictates that if you police the content of your forums in some cases, you have a duty to do it in ALL cases. So if you take on the duty of deleting a few messages based on their content, you are going to be responsible for ALL the messages on it. This may be fine if you get three or four messages a day, but a real busy forum with dozens, hundreds or thousands of posts every day is impossible to do this with.

      As for doing your best to eliminate fraudulent sellers... Well, that's easier said than done. To start with, how do you prove that someone is a fraud when you aren't the buyer or seller in the transaction and you had nothing to do with the transfer of the money or the item? If I tell a friend "I know this guy who's selling a car" and I tell this guy who's selling a car "I know a guy wh's looking for a car" and they get together and are unhappy with their transaction later - how am I to know what happened and who is right or wrong or if there was fraud involved or not? I mean.. you're asking ebay to take responsibility for something that they can't possibly prove or disprove. And what happens when you start kicking users who aren't really frauds? Or if someone complains about another user and you kick them only to find out you kicked the wrong one based on information from the other person?

      Really.. it is FAR EASIER said than done, man...

    6. Re:Not if someone better comes along by jdreed1024 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      the borderline-fraud service that is PayPal

      See, everyone says this, but all the anecdotes are particularly short on details. I've visited paypalsucks.com several times, and have yet to see a definitive instance where paypal screwed someone over. I've seen lots of "I shipped item $foo, and the seller claimed he never received it, and PayPal stole my money". Of course, they probably didn't read PayPal's TOS which says if you want seller protection, you ship via a method that provides tracking.

      Personally, I find that feature useful. I bought an item which never arrived. The seller tried to claim he didn't have to provide proof to me that he mailed it, since I didn't pay for insurance. So after two months, I filed a claim with PayPal and got my money back, since he failed to abide by their TOS. Then in retaliation he tried to report me as a non-paying bidder. It was later revealed that the item was returned to him for insufficient postage.

      Personally, I find the biggest problem on eBay is the users, not PayPal. However, I agree that if another suction service comes along that does a better job for the same price, yes, eBay will suffer. But I think that'll turn out to be difficult.

      --
      There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
    7. Re:Not if someone better comes along by ValourX · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It happend to me, though. I sold computers using PayPal. One buyer called up PayPal because the system was damaged during shipping. PayPal told him they could do nothing, so he contacted me and I replaced it immediately for him.

      A day later my PayPal account was frozen and all of the money I had in there was stolen by PayPal. That was last fall, and it's still frozen. PayPal will do nothing for me. All because the customer called PayPal first.

      -Jem
    8. Re:Not if someone better comes along by skyhawker · · Score: 4, Informative
      Hate speech harms society and it seeks to oppress the people or groups that it demeans.
      I have no problem with you policing your own site for this kind of garbage. The problem with making laws about "hate speech," however, is who gets to decide when something falls under the hate speech category. When the government decides to crack down on "hate speech," it's amazing how many things are suddently classified as such. American universities are particularly egregious at this kind of thing.

      The comment the grandparent made about you having to police all your forums if you police one is just a warning. I don't think there are any laws that say such a thing specifically, but I know I have read about cases where some sites have been found liable in civil suits because they engaged in selective enforcement. I think the guy's comment was just to alert you to the fact that you're probably better off not policing things on your site or else you open a potential can of worms. I doubt he's right, but I think the idea behind is comment is worth looking into.
      --

      The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank.
      -- Scotty.
    9. Re:Not if someone better comes along by nelsonal · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Paypal is very hard on sellers who get a complaint posted against them. The general rule was to lock the account of who ever has a complaint against them with no questions asked. This usually causes trouble to the generally undercapitalized web businesses, who now have a huge cashflow problem. They can't pay their suppliers because the proceeds of all 100 auctions have been locked even though 99 were happy and one is a whiner. Like ebay they are much better than the alternative (sending a check or money order and waiting two weeks for your stuff.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
  4. eBay by SirRobin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The changing policies are a sign of the times. Nowadays, what eBay does is considered OK. I find nothing wrong with what they do. I would not want to be at fault for some seller's junk, either. eBay still does what it did when it started - to use the old saying "one man's trash is another man's treasure"

    --
    42
  5. What can they do about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As someone who runs a large and successful (but non-commercial) auction site myself, I have to ask the following question:

    What exactly is ebay supposed to do about it?

    Seriously - what can ebay do about problem buyers and sellers? If a buyer or seller flakes out on the other party it's the buyer's word against the seller's. Putting aside the massive amount of man hours that would be needed to mediate disputes, how in the hell can you ever know which person is being honest or if they're both being honest and it was the shipper's fault or someone else's fault? At best, you're just listening to two people's stories and judging which one sounds more believable. That's a pretty poor solution if you ask me.

    I mean... I know people complain about ebay and they complain about my site too. But just what exactly do people think we CAN do?! I'm not inside either person's head and I am just a distant third party to the transaction. I give people a forum through which to post, buy and sell with each other. That's all there is to it. I don't know them personally, I dont' process their money and I don't ship their item. How is the auction owner supposed to keep tabs on every aspect of every transaction with all of these parameters that are out of their control?

    I'd love an answer, but I'll be fucked if I know.

    1. Re:What can they do about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'd also like to add that one way to deal with problem buyers and sellers is to leave bad feedback for them. If they screw you over, LEAVE THEM FEEDBACK. If they get enough bad feedback, nobody will deal with them anymore!

      This system should be self-correcting, but the reason it isn't is that people are concerned that if they leave a bad feedback, the other person will retaliate. On my site, I've seen people with 2,500 feedbacks (ALL positive) freak out because one person left them one bad feedback. If nobody is willing to suck it up and leave appropriate feedback for a problem buyer or seller, then they're just passing the buck and letting more people get screwed over.

      On my site, I ban people after their feedback ratio drops to a certain point in relation to the number of feedbacks they actually have. If more people would leave the bad feedback when it was deserved, more people would be banned. But since they don't, the system has no way of knowing the person needs to be banned. And without leaving the bad feedback, *I* certainly have no way of knowing that the user is a problem.

      Really, if you're not willing to do your part - don't blame the auction site.

    2. Re:What can they do about it? by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Informative

      ebay tries with the rating system but it's horribly broken.

      Sellers refuse to leave positive feedback unless the buyer does, buyers AND selelrs leaving retalitory negative feedback against legitimate gripes and overall everyone leaving "A++++ best ebayer ever" over and over makes the feedback system almost 100% useless except as an idea as to how active the user is.

      More information needs to be tracked for ebay for sellers and buyers to get a better idea.

      the time it takes for a buyer to pay needs to be shown. same as time it takes for a seller to ship as well as response times of both in email.

      Certian buyers take almost a fricking week to pay, some sellers will ship when they get around to it in a couple of weeks and thise stuff needs to be noted to improve EBAY service style.

      if a seller has his rating plus a "slow shipper" icon I'll know to avoid the guy. same as a buyer having a "slow pay" flag can be avoided for auctions.

      finally, ebay removed the ability for me to look at feedback but ONLY the negative feedback.

      Yes negative feedback is at least 90,000 more important than the sea of half hearted positives. and they need to be taken in context. but I do not want to clikc for 2 hours trying to read EVERY one of your negative feedbacks just to find out that you like to screw around and ship people's things from 2-3 weeks later, or you never read or respond to customer emails. (just as an example, not saying YOU do this.)

      ebay needs to collect more information automatically. and they can through their ownership of paypal... auction ended and buyer took 6 days to pay...

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    3. Re:What can they do about it? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think the largest improvement to the feedback system would be to weight it by amount paid. If someone sells 10 things for $1 each, then a few months later (after the items are no longer in eBay's cache), he looks like a reasonable seller. If he's trying to sell something worth $1000, I might consider buying from him. This person's feedback looks exactly the same as someone who has sold ten $1000 items. Since sellers pay a percentage of the sale price to eBay, this makes it a lot harder to fake good feedback with a lot of small transactions.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:What can they do about it? by theLOUDroom · · Score: 3, Insightful
      What exactly is ebay supposed to do about it?

      Seriously - what can ebay do about problem buyers and sellers?


      Well, for starters they could offer an escrow service.

      Seriously, I am amazed that they don't. When I first heard about ebay and its popularity I thought:
      "Hmmm, they must have some sort of escrow service set up.....there's no way people would be stupid enough to send money to a random, semi-anonymous person on the internet and HOPE they get somthing back."
      Turns out I was wrong and both ebay and paypal prove it.
      On any given day you can go on ebay and find more fraudulent auctions than you can shake a stick at, and paypal, being expempt from banking regulations is a VERY risky place to keep or transfer money. By not being a bank they are exempt from rules about how much cash they must keep on hand to cover the "balances" in their accounts, making them the perfect target for a bank run the minute there is significant doubt about their stability.

      If you want to be better than ebay, here's what you need to do:
      1. Screen ALL autions and actually enforce your rules. At a minimum, there should be a clearly labeled button for "Report this aution to an administrator" and when I press it, someone should actually do something.
      2. Offer an optional escrow service that the buyer pays for, and the seller CANNOT opt out of.
      3. Provide real support in the event of a problem

      I haven't touched on #1 before, but it's really important. Try going on ebay right now and searching for "RX-7" (the car I own). See all the keyword spamming that goes on? That makes it a real bitch for me to try and find ACTUAL PARTS FOR AN RX-7. Combine that with the lack of protection when I actually DO find something, and I just say "fuck it, I'll get my stuff elsewhere". So far, I have yet to buy a single thing off ebay.

      What I would like to see, is a human moderated electronic aution site, with a built-in escrow service.
      Yes, that would cost more, but I'd be willing to pay. Especially for an escrow service.
      Here's how you do the escrow service:
      There is a box I can check when I bid. When I check this box, you charge me an extra $5 for the service. If something goes wrong, you get an ACTUAL HUMAN involved and resolve things quickly.
      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    5. Re:What can they do about it? by dododge · · Score: 2, Informative
      Well, for starters they could offer an escrow service.

      www.escrow.com is the preferred escrow provider for ebay. Yes, it costs extra, which is why it isn't done all the time. It's also a bit more work for the buyer and seller; for example when I used it last year it involved doing a wire transfer.

  6. 3rd party for insurance, etc by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It always seemed odd to me that Ebay wanted nothing to do with the insurance/escrow and buyer/seller protection processes, and allowed third parties to fill in that gap, while Ebay relies on the auction fees and listing fees, and on their massive volume to make a profit. They definitely should have provided a way from the start for a guarantee, but what are they gonna do for those jets and houses that come up for sale? That's probably what they were thinking -- since they can't really refund the money from super-large purchases, it's not really fair for everyone else. However, they could charge some percentage of the final auction price to provide a "guarantee" of sorts, which would be great.

    --
    stuff |
  7. Short answer: by alhaz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes.

    It's an auction marketplace, for crying out loud. "eBay" doesn't sell product. Comparison with Sears is apples & mushrooms.

    --
    This is just like television, only you can see much further.
  8. Re:After this long by sotonboy · · Score: 2, Funny

    Im surprised theyre still there not because of their business model, but because its not really that cheap. Often you see things selling on there for more than you would pay in a shop, with all the extra protection that gives you. Any shop stuff is definitely new.

  9. I may be missing something, but... by quarkoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've bought plenty of stuff on eBay and sold odds and sods too. Like most people who've done more than a few trades, I've been caught out and I know that some people who've bought from me didn't read the item description properly.

    However, how is this eBay's fault? Why should eBay be responsible for my failure to check out the items I'm buying or the buyer I'm buying from? Likewise, why should eBay care if my buyer didn't read the item description?

    Nanny bloody society.

    Nick.

    1. Re:I may be missing something, but... by kryptkpr · · Score: 2, Informative

      Thankyou! I've done a fair ammount of buying and selling as well.. here are are my rules:

      1) Don't deal with anyone outside of North America. Ever. For any reason.

      2) Don't buy electronics at too-good-to-be-true prices. (Because is IS too good to be true)

      3) Don't buy anything with "this is an actuion for instructions on how to buy...." in the description. Run away.

      4) Don't sell to people with 0 feedback via Paypal. Request a money order or other method of payment.

      5) If you're thinking of buying something substancial (>$100) then RESEARCH. Research both the item and the seller(s), ask LOTS of questions. If the seller can't get back to you with accurate information quickly, then move on.

      6) Profit!

      I'm sure people have come up with more.. post them here.

      --
      DJ kRYPT's Free MP3s!
  10. Hilarious by gowen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Look. Ebay *is* working. I don't care if it doesn't work in theory, it *does* and *is* working in practice. Yes, theres fraud, but theres fraud on the highstreet too (where there is also mugging, street robbery and car jacking).

    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    1. Re:Hilarious by Wister285 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I completely agree. Ebay has a nearly perfect business model since all they have to do is make sure that their website is working and has enough bandwidth at all times. Although they do provide a buyer with some protection, PayPal helps out even more. The rest is left up to the consumer, who usually needs to practice commonsense anyway.

      Ebay's low risk, low captial method got it to where it is today. Slashdot's overly cynical nature is unnecessay. Ebay works and its great.

  11. no more e-bay for me by cagle_.25 · · Score: 3, Informative

    At least not for the expensive purchases, where saving money might really matter.

    I bought my wife a present of her favorite bubble bath on e-bay. When it came, it was somebody else's favorite bubble bath. I got in touch with the sender, who apologized profusely and offered to send the right stuff. It never came. And, I never got my money back.

    My friend, on the other hand, purchased a guitar on e-bay only to have it be in far worse condition than advertised. He never got his money back, either.

    My conclusion is to never spring big bucks for anything on e-bay.

    --
    Human being (n.): A genetically human, genetically distinct, functioning organism.
    1. Re:no more e-bay for me by Kombat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Only use people with 100% feedback.

      What about people who get ripped off, then leave the seller a negative feedback, to which the seller retaliates and leaves them negative feedback? Then the buyer has a negative feedback on his record, and for what? For complaining about getting ripped off?

      Your "100%" threshold seems a little high to me. It discourages people from ruffling feathers and leaving negative feedback in legitimate cases, for fear of tarnishing their own history to anything less than the flawless that buyers like you demand.

      --
      Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
  12. Incorruptible by CleverNickedName · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...promised unconditional returns (postage paid by Sears) in case there is any dissatisfaction with the product even if the product behaves exactly as described

    So it was basically a free, rental-service for all goods? I can't see how that could be abused.

    --


    Unfortunately, I am not Wil Wheaton
    1. Re:Incorruptible by puto · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well,

      I worked in the electronic department at Sears and saw this no questions return policy abused.

      People woule buy a video camera, use it for a wedding, then bring it back say they didnt like it. Even got one back that had seawater in it and the lady said it came that way. Manager made me take them both back(and commission was retroactive). Hell, they would take things back thate were a year or two old and give them a percentage of the full price back.

      Craftmans tools, life time warranty. People would show up with tools so old and funky just for new ones. I caught one of our old faithful returnees at a flea marker, buying used craftsman stuff, returning it for new and then reselling it for almost new prices.

      Sears no questions return policy almost put them out of business. The abuse was rampant.

      Puto

      --
      The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
  13. But who are they going to return it to? by MikeHunt69 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've sold some stuff on ebay and had two returns. One was a 4 disk set of the Alien movies, but the guy returned it about a month after buying it because of "dvd rot". Fair enough.
    The second one however, was for an external camera for a mobile phone. They were selling retail for 75 at the time, but I got mine free with the phone. I sold it for 50 (most were going to 35) to a guy. I sent it out, then two weeks after he got it he said it didn't work. I had already tested it, but what can you do? Call the guy a liar? Well, I refunded his money and when I got the camera back, I plugged it in and it worked perfectly. What I think really happened was that he found out he paid too much and that the quality was crap and wanted to "return it to place of purchase for a full refund".
    So after that episode, I simply put a disclaimer at the bottom that there will be no refunds and all sales are final. I try to be as honest with descriptions as possible so there *should* be no problems.

    1. Re:But who are they going to return it to? by Monkey · · Score: 2, Interesting

      would SEARS or even Walmart return this if they knew the truth and researched the products they return

      Probably. One time I bought an XBox from Walmart and I tried to install a first gen modchip in it (involving 26 wires soldered to the MB). At around wire 18 I ended up burning a trace on the motherboard and the end result was the Xbox was totally fucked.
      I removed the chip and wires and screwed everything back together. The next day I took it back to Walmart and told them my new Xbox I'd just bought the day before was now angrily flashing a red LED and refusing to play games. The Walmart guy was like "WTF, I never saw one do that before!" and they gave me a brand new one.

      The funny thing is, he removed it from the box and actually tried it out. He either didn't care or didn't notice that the stickers covering the screw holes were cut when he turned it over to examine the bottom.

  14. big difference by dncsky1530 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Sears makes money off of selling products in their catologs.
    vs.
    Ebay makes money off of people listing items to sell.
    The big difference is that Ebay makes money even if the products don't sell, Ebay has both an excellant business model and a huge market share, plus their just plain usefull

  15. business reality by iggymanz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    hah! you mean eBay should be like the FAILED business models of UBid, etc. which carried the cost of storage & transactions itself? No, eBay would not survive; it is a forum for auctions, and the buyer & seller are responsible for their own ethics. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

    1. Re:business reality by evilviper · · Score: 2, Interesting
      it is a forum for auctions, and the buyer & seller are responsible for their own ethics.

      It's impossible to know how ethical the person on the other end of the screen-name is going to be...

      Just look at the rest of the internet... I've never met a troll or a crap-flooder in person, so I assume they are the result of internet anonymity. The same is true for ebay. Scams that couldn't possibly work in a yard sale, will work nicely on ebay. The sellers know the likely hood of someone like me hunting them down from across the country is a slim possibility.

      If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

      There are two types of people in the world, those that have been ripped off on ebay, and those who have not been ripped of on ebay, yet.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  16. Re:After this long by Mattcelt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    At the same time, however, Wall Street doesn't look at businesses in terms of natural progression - increase, plateau, decline. WS has an unrealistic expectation that companies will continue to have exponential (at at least unchanged linear) growth, which often causes companies to do things which hurt their long-term viability for the sake of short-term gains.

    I liked Larry Page's (Google co-founder) take on it: "A management team distracted by a series of short-term targets is as pointless as a dieter stepping on a scale every half hour." Very nice.

    However, there are a lot of things I (and many others like me, I'm sure) won't buy on eBay because of the lack of protection from the company. But I'm not sure that eBay should do this - the resources involved are purely losses; no revenue will be gained directly, only indirectly (hopefully) through increased traffic.

    I think a better solution would be for a cottage industry to grow up (similar to Paypal or the escrow services already doing well b/c of eBay) offering transaction insurance or seller/buyer disputes for a reasonable price. If this business did well, eBay would probably purchase it the way it did Paypal.

  17. Amazing by bnet41 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    E-Bay has this great ability to avoid the fraud scandals that have hit their community. They always do a great job of getting the public to buy into the fact that they are just a marketplace, and nothing more. I am glad to see some changes coming in the AUTO's area though. It really doesn't suprise me, as the cars I'm sure make them a pretty penny in fee's.

    1. Re:Amazing by ryanwright · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They always do a great job of getting the public to buy into the fact that they are just a marketplace, and nothing more.

      And they are bastards for it. I got a real steal on an item because the seller had listed it in the wrong place. He then tried to charge me a $15 "handling fee" (not mentioned in his auction) + $20 shipping to make up for the low price. This is a violation of two of eBay's policies (fee avoidance and listing handling charges in your auction), so I of course refused to pay and filed a complaint.

      eBay's response? "You can think of us as a classified ad section. You wouldn't complain to the newspaper if you had a dispute with a seller that had advertised there. We're the same way." Followed by, "Oh, by the way, if you don't pay we'll slap you with a NPB alert. Three of those and we'll suspend your account."

      It's pure bullshit. They want to have their cake and eat it, too. Either you're a free marketplace or you're not. eBay has established that they are not, as they cancel listings they don't like, they have a whole list of rules, and they slap people that don't play nice. They are nothing like the classified ad section of the newspaper and need to stop pretending that they are, and start enforcing all of their rules equally.

      For now, eBay effectively has a license to print money. They don't have to do anything to appease anyone.

      --
      -Ryan, with the unoriginal sig
  18. The problem with eBay by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 2, Interesting

    is its very business model: I've always avoided buying things online (and also over the phone) because I dislike not having a real person in front of me to do business with. Buying something over the phone or over the internet is a socially deficient a transaction as it gets, and it deprives you of the all important face to talk to (or to punch) if you were scammed with your purchase.

    And don't talk to me about eBay user ratings: these are a joke. These sorts of credentials are a joke even in real-life: as the saying goes, really good con artists can sell you a turd and make you say thank you and beg for more.

    On the other hand, eBay brings sellers and buyers from the entire world together, and (more importantly), there's no lower price limit to what you can sell. So if I'm looking for Star Trek paraphernalia for example, I'm much more likely to find that miniature Klingon ship on eBay than from ads in the local newspaper.

    So, several years ago, the choice was tough for me: avoid doing business with people online, or be able to find great things? So one day I took the plunge, opened a PayPal account and starting bidding on things. Net result: out of 50-so items I won, I never received 4, and PayPal still owes me $150 of *my* money they just don't want to let go of.

    So FUCK EBAY!

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  19. Feedback fills the gap by peterdaly · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All the while, ebay offers something no bricks and motar person to person broker can offer. (Is there even such a business!?)

    Feedback.

    It's priceless. Any of the larger sellers have loads of honest feeback from purchasers. You can guage your own risk. It a model that works well when you understand it. Not only does it help the buyer, but it motivates the seller knowing that public feedback about the transaction will be left by the buyer.

    It's a system that works quite well, regarless of a lack of a bricks and motar parallel.

    -Pete

  20. Network effect and customer service by logic-gate · · Score: 3, Interesting
    With the exorbitant fees that ebay charge these days, you would find a way to offer buyer protection.

    What really cheeses me off about businesses that benefit from a network effect (like ebay) is that once they have their customers "locked in" there is no incentive for them to improve their business because it is very hard for competitors to challenge them.

    On a sidenote, check out New Zealand's version of ebay. The interface is so much cleaner and easier to use. I'm surprised how e-bay can have such a crap, ugly interface and continue to operate as a successful company.

    1. Re:Network effect and customer service by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm surprised how e-bay can have such a crap, ugly interface and continue to operate as a successful company.

      Marketing 101 my friend: eBay tries to reproduce a garage sale, therefore their interface is carefully designed to be slightly hard to use, to make people warm and fuzzy when they find what they're looking for, just like in a garage sale.

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  21. I dunno. by Gary+Yogurt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I always thought of eBay as more of a venue than a store, sometimes it's a con's back alley and sometimes it's a friend's showroom. Either way the blindfold isn't removed when your package arrives, as described. (Or it's removed when you're alone in this metaphorical place and you start to wonder if anyone is still around.) I think people might be asking too much. I've only won about 35 auctions on eBay in four years, and I haven't been ripped off because I try really hard to research everything before bidding.

    I mean, it's a bit like expecting the guy who owns the parking lot to pay for your broken flea market merchandise.

  22. This is a really stupid question by brokeninside · · Score: 4, Funny
    Ebay has been in business for over ten years now. They have been profitable for most of that time.

    And the submitter is asking if the business model is sustainable?

  23. Buyer protection not worth anything by FireFury03 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I personally have had a bad experience with an ebayer recently... Luckilly I only lost 45 ukp.

    I wanted a 802.11g card with a specific chipset (PrismGT), so having found a seller on ebay I bid and won the auction. The description of the item in the auction was very specific, quoting the modeul number, etc.

    3 weeks later (nice speedy delivery... not) I received a package, which I paid import duty on since the seller was in the states, only to discover that I had been sent an 802.11*B* card worth under 15ukp (and completely useless to me). So I tried to contact the seller to resolve the problem - the seller ignored all my emails. I opened a SquareTrade complaint which the seller ignored. The seller's account had been suspended by ebay shortly after the transaction so they obviously had complaints against him.

    However, the auction was paid for over PayPal and had a "PayPal buyer protection" icon on it, so I thought that I was safe... Wrong! I logged a complaint at PayPal, expecting them to refund my money and they said that the seller sending an incorrect item isn't covered by the protection.

    So what it comes down to is that if the seller had sent me what I ordered but it wasn't quite as shiny as it was described, I would've been covered, but since the seller sent me something completely different to what I ordered they won't cover me at all.

    IMHO the buyer protection scheme isn't worth anything and in the future I will be treating auctions covered by the buyer protection policy with the same suspicion as the unprotected auctions. As far as I could tell from the policy terms, I was covered, but PayPal (who are part of ebay) just weaseled out of it.

  24. Buyer authentication on eBay/listings credits by adzoox · · Score: 2, Informative

    You are incorrect. eBay and Yahoo auctions DO REQUIRE credit card registrations (now) - but that doesn't prevent anyone from multiple registrations. eBay DOES NOT profit from fraud either. It's bad public relations and turns people away. eBay DOES NOT collect ANY fees from an auction that you state you were not paid for. This is why they have the area in the "Non Paying Bidder" section for you to fill out:

    Did you receive any money from the buyer: Yes ______ (amount) OR No

    eBay then sends a confirmation email to that buyer where they have the opportunity to say yes they DID send money or no they didn't didn't send money. Not responding goes in favor of the seller.

    Unauthenticated buyers is usually a SELLER scam and not a buyer scam. Many con artist sellers register their own bidding email addresses as well and schill bid in their own auctions - jacking up the price.

    There isn't really a way beyond honesty that this "multiple" registration could be prevented other than by fingerprint. Which actually isn't a bad idea.

    Since the post office and UPS receive so much business from eBay - I would think it would be a nice service to provide at both for a fingerprint scan that could authenticate email and registrations on websites like ebay.

    --
    Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
  25. Paypal... by jonwil · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What usually happens in most of the "paypal problems" is this:

    Person x puts money into paypal (with credit card usually)

    Person x then pays person y.

    Person y then (for the sake of this example) takes the money out of Paypal (e.g. to their own credit card/bank account) and sends the goods.

    For whatever reasons, person x then decides to do a chargeback for the credit card (for example, if they dont get the goods, the goods are faulty or whatever else). Credit card company asks Paypal to pay back money. Paypal then freezes account of person y so that they can take back the money to pay the credit card company. If person y has transfered the money to someone else on paypal, even more accounts may be frozen until things are sorted out. But if (as in the example above), person y has taken the money out of paypal alltogether, thats when paypal will go to bank accounts, credit cards or whatever they can to get the money back from person y.

    What we need is a new service similar to Paypal but:
    A.backed by an existing bricks and mortar bank (to provide security and confidence that there is real money in a vault somewhere to back up your virtual dollars)
    B.complying 100% with banking regulations
    C.provides more ways to put money into your "e-account" (i.e. ways that DONT allow the service to take money from your bank account or your credit card without you specificly making a transaction)
    D.provides a better way to handle disputes than "freezing the accounts of anyone who might be remotly involved and moving money around without permission"
    E.operates worldwide so that everyone can use it (like PayCrud)
    F.would not allow other services to touch the account without permission (so you could have a PayCrud account to pay people who only accept payment that way and have it linked to this account so that if something goes wrong, PayCrud cant touch it). Ideally, you would need to specificly authorized a direct debit (be it once off or recurring) before it was valid.

    Course, even if such a service was set up, Ebay would probobly "prohibit" people from using it (to force more people to use PayCrud which they own)

    1. Re:Paypal... by Daengbo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Indeed. PayPal prohibits transactions from my area of the world (most, if not all, of SE Asia). This makes online orderingfrom many companies wuite difficult.

    2. Re:Paypal... by ValourX · · Score: 2, Informative

      Credit cards can't receive payments from buyers. That's all that PayPal's really good for. It also allows people who can't otherwise accept credit cards to do so.

      But BitPass will do the same thing, as will 2Checkout. And neither of them has a long and glorious history of screwing people like PayPal does.

      -Jem
  26. Buyer protection not worth anything/not true by adzoox · · Score: 2, Informative

    Eventhough Paypal doesn't like it and tells you that you can't - you CAN make a chargeback that is successful 99% of the time.

    That is of course if you fund your transactions with credit cards which should ALWAYS do!

    --
    Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
  27. The deciding factor … by Compact+Dick · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... is the jerk-worthy quality of the lingerie section.

  28. I've posted this before by way2trivial · · Score: 2, Interesting

    your part c? netbank, as in www.netbank.com will allow deposits from paypal, rejects withdrwals initiated by paypal..
    no minimum balance, free checks, free billpay (with a caveat, if you stop using billpay, they charge you) open an account, fund with a low limit credit card and withdraw to netbank.. you can still get your token two deposits recorded to have the bank account 'verified'

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  29. Excelent article! by becauseiamgod · · Score: 2, Funny

    Excelent article! Will read again! A++++++++++++++++++++++

  30. eBay is the world's yard sale, Sears is a store by gelfling · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's a Big Difference.

    eBay is basically the crap you don't want or need anymore or the stuff you stole that you're trying to get rid of. So we all lower our own expectations accordinginly.

    Kinda like TigerDirect.com which is the last refuge for old/used/returned/opened equipment sold as new or something quite like that and you wouldn't really know it's crap until you read the fine print.

    Anyway, eBay would be a lot better without PayPal which is really just a polite way to steal from you. They take a system that basically works well; credit card sales, and they insinuate themselves into the middle of each transaction in order to suck a few more dollars out of you. Which truly sucks.

    Ah well you people made eBay what it is today. Enjoy.

  31. Typical: reporter misses the point by Shoten · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The reporter entirely fails to grasp the most fundamental truth about eBay: eBay was started because Pierre Omidyar believed existing channels for sales transactions among individuals were entirely lacking. And it grew tremendously because he was absolutely right. The last thing in the world eBay wants to do is mimic existing systems. The point of eBay is to let an evolutionary process work things out. This is how PayPal came into existence, which has turned out to be a whole other solution that was only necessitated and made possible by eBay's choice to not address any but the most basic needs of their constituents; this is the whole point of why eBay works as it does. They don't presume to think they have all the answers as to what will work best, and instead trust the user base to help sort it out.

    Also worth noting is that ordering from a catalog a hundred years ago is nothing like these days, with lesser amounts of technical information, practically no standards, and nothing but hand-drawn pictures to go by for illustrations. These days, you can be a lot more certain of what you're buying than you were then, and there is no longer any need to overcome the resistance to ordering sight unseen, as was the case then.

    Oh, one other thing. The NYT reporter should have a look at what has become of Sears these days when considering how wise it would be to emulate them.

    --

    For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
  32. Re:More machine than man/Paypalsucks is a scam too by adzoox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Paypalsucks.com is a scam as well.

    Go to the site. Notice the banner ads? They are for competing services to paypal. PAYPAL'S COMPETITION sponsor the site!!

    I feel MUCH safer with Paypal than I do with my bank. eBay depends greatly on good press. The days where "bad press" news items come out about eBay - the stock usually takes a 2-3 point hit. Paypal/ebay have stockholder's to please and analysts to appease with tight security. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than average? A resounding: YES!

    Read this article on my website about Paypal and PayPalSucks.com where I corresponded with the webmaster.

    What is most ironic - is that scammers use paypalsucks.com as a way to say they aren't a scammer! Saying:

    "I don't use Paypal - see this website for why"

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    Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
  33. What sears has become by nuggz · · Score: 2, Informative

    I haven't had any trouble.
    I have wandered in with damaged and defective Sears screwdrivers and gotten replacements with no receipt and issues.
    My wife orders clothes and if it doens't fit returns it without any problems.
    The staff is generally a step above much of the competition, both in knowledge, and customer service.

  34. Can you wipe your ass with Ebay? No. by bigattichouse · · Score: 2, Informative

    One of the great uses for small country households was to use the Sears and Robuck catalog for various purposes as it was a great deal of free paper..

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    meh
  35. can it be? not really by dAzED1 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Right now there is a very large market for something - a new online auction place.

    A year or two ago, I could actually find things on ebay that I was looking for. Hell, no matter what it was, I could find it.

    Now, any search just turns up a million hits for people who aren't using ebay for what it was good for, but are instead using it to sell ultra-low quality crap they bought in large volumes.

    searching is rougher too - I go to look for anyone with weights for sale in upstate NY, and have to go through a billion diet pill and video things just to find the one item that almost is what I was looking for.

    Do I buy it? No...the fact that ebay has a rep for scammers and ripoffs now does help make that decision, too. More and more, that's their rep.

    I wish there was a way to filter out professional ebayers...

  36. So? by quisph · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The New York Times claims eBay can learn a lot from the early Sears catalogs
    In other news, apples can learn a lot from oranges.
  37. eBay versus New York Times by mec · · Score: 4, Informative

    The New York Times is a publicly traded company which sells advertising and subscriptions. They actually get about twice as much revenue from advertising as they do from subscriptions.

    Let's dig into the New York Times finances. I start at www.sec.gov, click on Edgar filings, search for "New York Times", and grab the 10-K, the most recent annual filing.

    New York Times 10-K

    For the year ended 2003-12-28, their revenus was $3.2 billion. Here's a breakdown:

    100% $3.2 billion total revenue
    66% $2.1 billion advertising
    27% $0.9 billion circulation
    07% $0.2 billion other

    Advertising revenue is up about 3.5% from 2002, but advertising volume, the number of inches of ads, dropped 3.8% from 2002 to 2003. The Times has been selling fewer ads but charging more for them.

    Summary: the primary business line of the New York Times company is selling ads. Internet companies such as eBay are cutting into that ad business. And that's why the New York Times has been trash-talking Google and eBay lately.

    1. Re:eBay versus New York Times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Internet companies such as eBay are cutting into that ad business.

      In what way exactly?

  38. Yup by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 4, Funny

    >> Is eBay Worse Than Early Sears Catalogs?

    As a former out-house owner, I have to say, "Yup". You can't wipe your ass with eBay.

  39. In other news... by jaylee7877 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apples aren't near as easy to peel as oranges...

  40. Typical issue for me... by Paulrothrock · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have the unfortunate ability to see both sides of an issue, leading to me losing every argument I've ever been in. So here's my take.

    All of my transactions on eBay have been efficient and hassle free, even when buying big-ticket items (like a trombone). My dad, however, got burned once and will never use eBay again. So it is in eBay's best interest to make sure that sellers' and buyers' disputes are resolved amicably. And I can't see why they haven't been involved because they (and PayPal) have records of the transactions.

    However, I can see that eBay is merely a vector for the transactions, and that they don't have any fault in letting asshats get money out of unsuspecting people. And eBay, being a publicly traded company, has an obligation to its investors to make as much money as possible. Enforcement or arbitration would seriously eat into profits

    So a risk/benefit analysis is in order; see if it's more profitable to create a safe environment for both buyers and sellers, or to ignore it and avoid the cost of that service. Or wait for it to get so bad that the government regulates it and everyone ends up paying for their laziness and greed, like a lot of companies.

    --
    I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
  41. Use your own brain by rueger · · Score: 2, Informative

    Seriously, it is not hard to tell the scam artists from the honest retailers on e-bay. I suspect that most gripes come from people trying to get a deal that is "too good to be true".

    It is pointless to compare shopping on e-bay with going to a bricks and mortar retailer like Best Buy.

    E-bay is the wild west. The onus is on the buyer to look at feedback ratings, look at what elese the guys sells, and make an educated guess about the risk factor involved.

    If you decide to pay $250 for new super pentium4 notebook with lots of free software from a guy with no history called "ebaydood675", then you pretty much assume that it will never arrive.

    Sure there are scam artists on e-bay. There are also guys who go door to door selling aluminum siding, but I don't insist that the city should roll up the sidewalks to keep them away from my house.

    Instead of blaming e-bay or Pay-Pal (who, sure, don't really do anything if you do get ripped off) take some responsibility for your own decisions.

  42. They offer buyer protection through PayPal by mrnick · · Score: 2, Informative

    With Ebay's acquisition of PayPal they do offer buyer protection if you pay through PayPal. I had a friend that bought WiFi card through EBay that ended up being a broken piece of junk and the seller refused to do anything about it. Although it was not painless he was able to get his money back from PayPal. Once they refunded the money PayPal had him ship the broke card directly to them.

    Nick Powers

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    Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
  43. Consumers are very different now by rkuris · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Back in the days of the first Sears catalog, you would buy ONE item, and it was hard to get it to you (sometimes you had to wait weeks for it) and hard to repair (if it broke, the nearest repair person may have been across the country). So, people focused on quality.

    Now, if my CD writer dies, I just go buy another one, and I'm out only a few $10 bills. I don't care (as much) about quality. If my CD writer works for two years, I'm happy.

    Also, look at WalMart. They don't usually stock high quality items -- they go for the lowest prices possible (watch out for falling prices). Their whole business model is based on having the lowest price anywhere. This is very appealing to most consumers.

    At ebay, you can often find good deals. Sure, the items are used, and since most things made today are made as cheaply as possible, it might fall apart.

    I think as long as ebay realizes they are a "low price leader" like WalMart, they will continue to have success.

    --

    --
    Get rid of everything Micro and Soft: Buy Viagra and/or Linux
  44. How Cheap can they get? by PetoskeyGuy · · Score: 2, Funny

    I saw a table selling nothing but Childrens Games on CD's that had obviously been stolen from the outside of Cereal Boxes. The CD's even had printed on them not for retail sale or something like that. Only $10 each. I think I told about 15 people that he stole them from Cereal boxes. I don't know what happened after that, but the other people seemed like they would take care of it. :o)

    1. Re:How Cheap can they get? by stanmann · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A flea market is not retail... it is Re-Sale. the "not for retail" marking can only bind the first sale, not subsequent. And it is possible that he bought the cereal.

      --
      Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
  45. trusty Sears by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Western Union, a popular Sears payment system, was never a wholly owned ripoff subsidiary.

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    make install -not war

  46. Re:eBay Needs To Police Itself Better by Audigy · · Score: 2, Informative

    eBay's help file about shill bidding

    It's strongly against their policies. eBay does not police itself. It relies solely on customers to report questionable activity. They almost always act on these reports.

    The best deals I've come across lately on eBay are "Buy it Now!" items. It's much more convenient than bidding on traditional auctions and worrying about being sniped or shilled. Of course, if you only bid the max you're willing to pay, you won't have to worry about it.

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    [an error occured while processing this directive]
  47. eBay is driving users away with lack of policy by tentimestwenty · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Even though eBay is the defacto marketplace for selling personal items online, bad service or lack of accountability will eventually erode its business. No business regardless of size or market share is immune from disatisfied customers, especially in such a liquid communal market as eBay - word travels fast.

    It's been my experience, and I can see this in my friends who've used eBay that there's a lifespan to using eBay which pretty much follows the bell curve. The steps are basically:

    1. Initial awe and amazement
    2. Lots of impulse purchases
    3. "Hey, I can make great money selling crap"
    4. "Hey, I can make great money beating the system"
    5. A couple bad experiences either buying or selling
    7. Losing interest in buying
    8. No items left to sell/effort too large for profits
    9. Disillusionment with high eBay fees
    10. One really bad experience buying (less so selling)
    11. Beginning to hate eBay's policies
    12. Realizing anything you want costs more on eBay
    13. Almost never using eBay

    It's pretty clear to me where the curve starts plunging downward - whenever there's a need to use eBay or PayPal feedback/protection/or dispute resolution.

    Eventually eBay will run out of customers to cycle through and another competitor will snap them up. Likely they'll just target experienced eBayers and provide them with a dispute resolution service that introduces accountability. If eBay wants to fix the curve they should do the same for themselves and keep their users for the long term.

  48. The problem with escrow by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is it costs money. The reason most people buy on eBay is to save money. With escrow you have double shipping charges, since it has to be sent to escrow first, then to the buyer. You also have the cost of maintaining a warehouse and staff to hold the items while escrow is going on (which could be a coupld weeks in some cases). To top it all off, you need to make a profit or it's not really worth doing.

    Well for most items, the buyer just isn't going to find it worth it. Are you really going to drop $30-50 in escrow fees on a processor you bought for $100?

    1. Re:The problem with escrow by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And what is Mr. Seller's incentive to use this version of Mr. Escrow's service? What happens if the item disappears? If you claim to have returned it?

      Real escrow works because Mr. Escrow holds both the item and the money to prove to the seller that the item exists, and to prove to the buyer that the money exists. The buyer knows the seller can't pretend the buyer didn't send him the item, and the seller knows the buyer can't take the money and run. In your case Mr. Buyer will just claim that he never received the item and demand the refund from Mr. Escrow.

      If everyone used Certifiable delivery of both the money and the goods, that part of the problem would go away escrow or not, but nobody is willing to pay the extra money for certified mail.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  49. This guy is a historian? by Animats · · Score: 2, Informative
    He doesn't have a clue about the history of Sears. "Messy headquarters", indeed. The Sears, Roebuck "works" in Chicago was very organized in the early catalog years. Otto Doering designed the Sears order fulfillment center, with conveyors, chutes, bins, elevators, pneumatic tubes and railroad tracks. He invented the "schedule system". Nobody had ever had a business like that before, with every transaction different but handled in a very organized way. Without computers, even.

    Each incoming mail order was opened and read, then assigned a bin number and a 45-minute time slot. Pull tickets, with bin numbers, were filled out for each item and sent by pneumatic tube to different departments all over the "plant", where stock pickers took the item off a shelf and sent the item to the order assembly bins via conveyor. There, this being pre-bar-code, people grabbed the items off the conveyor as it passed the appropriate bin, and dropped the item with pull ticket in the bin.

    At the end of the time period for the current orders, all the filled bins were pulled and replaced with empty bins. The filled bins were sent off by conveyor to outgoing order processing, where the contents of the bin were checked against the original order, the appropriate bookkeeping operations were performed, and the order was shipped.

    Note how this works. The information moves, in the form of pick slips, and the merchandise moves, but there's little searching for merchandise. The order picking people don't move very far. In any one area, the people in that area know where the items in their area are (and they're all numbered, of course) so they can quickly pick items and put them on their outgoing conveyor. Order binning involves no paperwork; it's just putting items with numbered tags in bins. Order final assembly and checking starts with all the merchandise and paperwork in one place, and the people doing that work on only one order at a time, so that's straightforward. Packing and shipping consists of putting the contents of a bin in a box and adding a label created at order final assembly.

    In its day, the Sears, Roebuck center was considered a marvel of commerce.

    Order fulfillment operations still work a lot like that. Barcoding and computers have substantially reduced the number of people involved, but everybody still has bins and timeslots.

  50. Re:early Sears catalog? by Bassman59 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Uninformed writes, "No store in their right mind these days or a deep pockets will promise unconditional returns in case there is any dissatisfaction with the product even if the product behaves exactly as described."

    Actually, that is NOT true. Most retailers WILL accept returns, usually up to 30 days after purchase, no questions asked. (Look at -- and keep! -- your receipt next time you go shopping.)

    Why? Quite simple. They keep you as a customer.

    The vast majority of customers are honest, and the stores know this. They accept the fact that there are always going to be people who abuse the system, and they also know that the abusers actually LOVE to play the game. The smart retailer tells the clerks to smile and give the customer their money back, so the abusive customer can't play the game.

    There ARE some exceptions to this. Pretty much every store that sells big-screen TVs suspends the 30-day money-back guarantee a month before Super Bowl Sunday, for the obvious reason...