IT Outsourcing Need Not Threaten Our Future

Xeo writes "The topic of the moment in a lot of people's minds is the outsourcing overseas of 'white collar' jobs. While many people are perhaps rightfully worried about this, there's an editorial on the subject that tends towards the other direction. It makes some very interesting points on the whole idea of outsourcing and what it means for the US at least."

Comments

It need not threaten your future

[dsanfte]

Outsourcing need not threaten your future, there are plenty of new opportunities for aspiring programmers within the food service sector. Dare to dream!

Basic premise

[Black_Logic]

The articles author makes decent points, but what it all boils down to is that, usually, change doesn't lead to disaster. Which is essentially true. I'm sure that whatever the econimic trends, some sort of equilibrium will be found. But as someone getting ready to leave a university with a CS degree in a year or so, I'm pretty worried about the interim. Although I suppose I'm in a far greater position than someone whose got a family to support. I'm sure many /.'ers would agree that money is a distant second to having enjoyable, challenging work.

After all the doom and gloom about the tech industry I'm happy to hear a positive viewpoint, true or not. :)

Re:Basic premise

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people argue that "when we outsource one sector of work, the country advances and most of our people go into a greater field of work, above what they were doing before".

In other words, we outsource production/manufacturing jobs and then we become a service and information based economy. But the problem with this NOW is that you're not talking about putting a bunch of assembly line workers out of jobs and making them go to school and learn something. You're talking about forcing educated, professional people who have often gone into debt to acquire their educations or people who have technical skills but no on-paper-degree out of their work as the work is shipped overseas.

It's one thing to tell a guy who runs the bottle-capping machine at 7-UP that his job is being shipped overseas and he's going to have to go back to school and persue college toward some sort of office job or higher technology job. It's quite another to tell someone who has spent a decade or three building their white collar career or a person who spent four or more years in college, then building their career and dedicating themselves to a particular field that now they're going to have to go back to school all over again (sometimes after just having graduated and gone into debt a first time) and learn something new...

Sure, maybe it's great for the country overall... but it sucks ass for individual people in the meantime. It fucks a whole generation over.

Re:Basic premise

[apoc.famine]

If you've got that four year degree, and don't have a job, invest an additional 1.5 - 2 years into becoming a certified teacher. With the certification requirements of NCLB, and the average age of teachers somewhere in the mid to high 50s, the USA is heading into an ever-greater teacher shortage. As one hell of a benefit, a fair number of school districts are desperate enough for teachers, that they will pay off your student loans, if you sign a multi-year contract.

The hours aren't bad, the benefits are great, and the job security is near 100%. While you have to jump through some *very* assinine hoops to prove that you know what you know, the end result is worth it. And quite frankly, the poor teacher salaries of the last few decades are becomming more and more competitive, especially if you have a higher degree and a few years on the job.

Actual content

[kahei]

This is an article about how Americans see themselves -- or rather, about how the author would like them to. It does not appear to actually touch on the economic realities (good or bad) of outsourcing.

Yay for fluff.

However, it is quite interesting in the American self-image that it pushes. While Americans are indeed diverse and tolerant, I think the remarks on innovation (which I hear often) could do with a little consideration.

what to worry about

[virtualone]

i worry about.. being replaced with a shell script

Innovation

[pubjames]

America's technological strength is based on innovation.

I would say it is partly based on innovation.

One huge advantage that the USA has in most areas of business is a huge, practically borderless, single market containing almost 300 million people. The benefits of this can't be understated, and it's something that other countries can't completely emulate (although in Europe we're trying to create a single market, we'll always have the issues with different languages and cultures).

I think commentators often overestimate the advantage that the USA has in terms of the greater capabilities of it's people, and also are blinkered if they think that other countries can't achieve greatness as well.

Re:Innovation

[swb]

(although in Europe we're trying to create a single market, we'll always have the issues with different languages and cultures).

I'm sure many will mod me into oblivion for saying this, but in the U.S. we're working on accomplishing this, too. Instead of encouraging our immigrants to learn English and assimilate, we instead promote bilingualism under the misguided notion that it promotes diversity, when it actually discourages assimilation and limits immigrants opportunities to the lowest end of the economic spectrum, since without a "push" to learn English they never do become bilingual.

A friend's grandmother was an immigrant from Poland. She said that she learned English not because it was around her, but because it was seen as a badge of honor to speak English. As a teenager when she's shop with some of her older sisters, she would occasionally try to ask them questions in Polish at the counter with a salesperson. Her sisters would either ignore her or tell her to speak English.

Like it or not, there was a strong social pressure to become an English speaker. Diversity and bilingualists have attempted to eliminate this pressure (it's alternatively xenophobic, racist, or just simply bigoted). If they continue succeeding, we'll end up like Europe, or worse, a Balkanized country divided by language. History demonstrates that nations do not stay healthy divided by language and culture -- the term isn't called "Balkanized" for nothing. Switzerland is the only country I can think that's made it work, everywhere else it always leads to division at best and bloodshed at worst.

I plan to have my son learn Spanish at the earlist possible age, since even in Minneapolis, it's impossible to hold even a basic functional conversation with many service workers, since they don't speak *any* English. I don't understand how non-Spanish speakers even manage in Southern California, but not living there I don't have a great feel for the Anglo/Latino cultural divide.

Another good article on this

[stry_cat]

A similar article can be found here Here's a brief quote from it.

A fundamental mistake made by the critics of outsourcing has been to confuse the passing pain of the IT recession with an alleged long-term decline in the sector. That mistake is compounded when current output and employment levels are compared with levels at the frenzied peak of the boom in 2000 rather than with more normal levels from the late 1990s. A more accurate and less alarming picture of the industry emerges if we compare the state of the industry a few years after the bubble burst with its state a few years before.

Beginning in the early 1990s, with the takeoff of Windows-based computing and the Internet, employment in the IT industry surged. Employment in software and related services grew by one million between 1993 and 2000, before dropping by 166,000 between 2000 and 2002. The story has been much the same across other IT sectors: stupendous growth throughout the 1990s, then a pullback in employment of 10 to 20 percent during the recession. In the IT industry as a whole, employment levels even after the recession were still no lower than in 1998. During the past decade, annual employment in the industry has still grown at a rate twice as fast as employment in private industry in general.(emphasis added)

It's really not as bad as one might think

The Obvious

[kpogoda]

The guy is a President of an Engineering University. Is enrollment is down between 20-50% based on nationwide trends. Of course he is going to push a positive forecast to push enrollment up. But the kids are not buying it. I wonder what a good field is these days in the US?

Re:Voluntary trade makes everybody better

[Roger Keith Barrett]

The American worker is freed up to pursue a more efficient allocation of his labor.

Like reinforcing his home/cardboard box with duct tape.

Modern day Ford?

[lingqi]

Regardless of how much Ford (the original) made cheap cars, he knew that it would mean jack if his employee's can't afford them. He hence paid his employees very well.

There is no point for a company to be cutting costs if all it does is starve the consumers - it will create a vicious cycle whereby the more you cut costs, the smaller your market.

Granted, you are opening a new market in the countries where you now do most of your hiring - BUT then it's still a comparative small market because your prices are aimed at consumers with assumed income several times that people in whose countries the products are made.

Isn't this just another great example of the great human fault of discounting the future?

Re:Again...

[ffub]

People with PHDs are over qualified for most commercial programming jobs, and will demand a far higher pay.

They should stick to research, commercial programming is not just about theoretical know how. I know good commercial programmers that don't even have A Levels, that have learnt on the job and at home, and I know graduates who can't get a good job. The latter cost more and expect more.

Missing from the article

[I8TheWorm]

A point I think the article misses on, and a fairly important one, is the current education system in the US. While problem solving (vs. memorization) is still the focus of education here, it's not as enforced as it was in the past.

I have family in several states in education and most agree that we're turning out fewer problem solvers than in the past. None seems to have a solution, outside of parenting (or lack thereof), which I think is the leading killer of a solid education.

What used to draw innovators from other countries was the freedom and opportunity found in the US. Both of those seem to be dwindling. Where does that leave us?

I think we're also in for a lull in innovation in the US, which is scarier to me than the trend in offshore outsourcing. I've been a professional developer for 13 years. Although I haven't been affected yet, I have to assume it will affect me sometime (hopefully later than sooner).

With three children, I am the math and science homework helper in the house. What I find is my children are taught tricks and workarounds rather than an understanding of the fundamental math problems. I'm glad to help my children, and love seeing the light go off in their head when they actually understand the problems they work on. So I have this idea. When I "retire" from development (forced or otherwise) I'm going to become a math teacher, preferably at the middle school ages. I've worked in math my whole career, and have had a wonderful experience with my own children (I know, teaching 25 kids is completely different). I think if more people were to go into teaching towards the end of their career, and in a field that matches their respective career, we would be turning out more innovators and maybe worry less about the future of the working world in the US.

Re:creativity and innovation

[Roger Keith Barrett]

What do you mean that there is no strategic long term concern?

I'll tell you just one, a big one... when there is absolutely no reward for going into a technical, I.T. or engineering career then no one is going to go to school to learn these professions.

Then you really WILL lose creativity, innovation, and have a REAL lack of in-country talent.

Slight problem...

[mizukami]

From the article:

Engineering in Germany is known for its precision. Japan is recognized for continuous improvement of products (as American automakers have learned all too well). America's technological strength is based on innovation. Of these three, I'll take innovation for the most enduring competitive advantage.

Slight problem here. Germany and Japan are certainly not known for their lack of innovation, while in many areas the US is notorious for its lack of precision and continuous improvement of products (missiles and other ways of killing large numbers of people being obvious exceptions).

America's biggest strength is nothing so vague and ephemerous as "creativity" and "ethnic diversity" (unless by ethnic diversity what you really mean is the disproportionate number of advanced science and engineering degrees given to non-Americans), it's just size of the population and access to wealth (raw materials, energy sources, etc.)

As global economies and improving technologies make these strengths less important as compared to such things as precision and continuous improvement (not to mention a highly educated populace and a sane top leadership), I think that the future of the US will become a very different one than what happened there in the 20th century.

Re:creativity and innovation

[offpath3]

I'll tell you just one, a big one... when there is absolutely no reward for going into a technical, I.T. or engineering career then no one is going to go to school to learn these professions.

Have you forgotten that learning and working with what you like is reward in and of itself for many people? I think job prospects would have to get pretty darned bleak before I'd do something other than computer science...

MBAs ruining technicians

[leandrod]

> When I talk to CEOs about the career paths of the engineers in their companies, they say that many reach a career plateau very early, often after only five years. This happens not because of any technical deficiency, but because of a lack of "people" skills such as communication and teamwork.

No news here. These are MBA-type CEOs that love to ruin people's lives because they can't lie enough to keep customers happy but screwed. The kinda guy who thinks he's a success because he's filthy rich, and who can't understand he needs people. He can't grok that people want to do something instead of bloodsucking like him. So his company lacks an Y-shaped career path.

Contrast this to Germany where CEOs are engineers.

Re:creativity and innovation

[markxsd]

anything that remotely involves creativity or innovation is not going anywhere

Creativity is not necessarily a big part of a job in IT though. For example, a DBA may have needed to be creative when the shXt hit the fan 10 years ago, but these days things shouldn't go wrong that often, and if they do then follow the backup and recovery plan that was probably written 5 years ago by someone creative. OK you need to know what you are doing, but the chances are you aren't the first DBA to have encountered this problem. Call the vendor for support. Push the buttons they tell you to. I'm not saying it's easy - you'll need to know what you're doing - but let's face it, innovation and creativity may not be the key skills you need here.

The same goes for many other white collar jobs out there. Does a lawyer need to be creative when drawing up a contract on the sale of house? Does a claims assessor have to be creative when looking at documentary evidence after a car accident?

There are a lot of jobs out there which have an inbox and an outbox, and a series of logical questions. Those that haven't already been automated, are exactly the kind that could be outsourced. And that does have the potential to affect any Western economy.

You're living in a dream world

[syousef]

In the words of Homer Simpson "You're living in a dream world...".

Innovation costs money. Bleeding money off shore through outsourcing until the common guy on the street can't get a job is not going to help scientists and engineers innovate. The more you lower the standard of living in a country, the less people will be concerned with innovation and the more effort they'll need to spend just to stay afloat. Eventually you will simply bring the standard of your own country down closer to the level of the countries you outsource to.

Outsourcing to another place where people work like slaves for peanuts just to keep themselves from starving is evil. Period. You reap what you sew. This BS WILL come back to haunt us all.

Everyone who genuinely wants to work should be able to make a living. If they're willing to make a gigantic effort they should be able to expect proportional rewards.

Sammy

Re:creativity and innovation

[unformed]

No, when that happens you're just going to stop having people go into these fields simply to make money. The people who have creativity, who actually like this kind of stuff, will still go, and though there will be less people in the fields, they will be far, far more knowledgable than those right now. The market right now is flooded with "programmers" who can barely write in java, let alone anything else.

If you don't believe me, look at fields like Mathematics, which offers barely any jobs at all. Yet, there are quite a few people studying for it, most going for their PhD's. I do believe they're doing it for the love of mathematics rather than that excellent paycheck that they're going to get (which they probably won't anyway).

Fawning admirer of CEO's

[amightywind]

When I talk to CEOs about the career paths of the engineers in their companies, they say that many reach a career plateau very early, often after only five years. This happens not because of any technical deficiency, but because of a lack of "people" skills such as communication and teamwork. Moreover, engineers often come up short when they have to deal with people from different fields, such as manufacturing and marketing.

How enfuriating! This CEO sycophant would have us (engineers) believe if we improved our social skills we could all be executives and all would be right with the world. Bunk. Corporate management structure is about the few controlling the efforts of the many. The structure is not imposed through democratic means - CEO's don't run for office. Neither is the structure merit based. (What do you think about the review process at your company?) It is based on ambition, alliances, and persuasion. Climbing the corporate ladder is considered by some to the the ultimate competition. To me the game resembles musical chairs more than anything else.

One of the reasons the free software culture appeals to so many in this forum is that those who have reached a "career plateau" can bypass the rigid heirarchy of the corporate world and express themselves professionally though writing software. No management required!

Re:creativity and innovation

[Roger Keith Barrett]

Have you forgotten that learning and working with what you like is reward in and of itself for many people?

And I enjoy working with and learning about classical literature, but there are so few job opportunity as a classical literature reader that I decided not to go on and get advanced degrees in that area. So it turns into a hobby.

Practicality has to kick in at some point. I think you will eventually be shedding people that really have talent and won't go into it just because they can't make a living out of it. The number of good people will go down.

Maybe it will, however, improve the quality of the people left because they really want to be there.

The recent elections in India might have an impact

[mc6809e]

Over the past 10+ years or so, India has seen great economic growth. Many economists attribute this to the adoption of a more capitalist/free market system. Recent elections threaten to turn back these reforms as many rural people feel they have been left out of the boom. Such a backlash might make doing business in India more difficult. In fact, shortly after the elections, the Indian stock market dropped about 4%.

I'd like to hear the opinion of Indians on these elections and their impact.

Oh the irony

[Phleg]

I have family in several states in education and most agree that we're turning out fewer problem solvers than in the past. No-one seems to have a solution...

Funny how that works out, eh?

Re:creativity and innovation

[NDPTAL85]

Ugh I really hate this line of thinking. A lot of the people in any industry who are in it "for the money" are orders of magnitude better at whatever job they're in than those who are there just "for the love of it".

An emotional attachment to something does not equal intellectual apptitude.

Those who desire to make lots of money however tend to focus their intellects on whatever it is they do best and then they go out and do it.

Re:creativity and innovation

[Cromac]

Alot of K-12 teachers still get paid essentially crap wages.

That's teachers union propoganda. The average teacher in the US makes nearly $42,000 / year. Factoring in an extra 35 days of work that the rest of us work every year brings the average teacher salary to $52,541.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/07/04/teacher.sa laries.ap/