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Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

mood6 writes "Linux Journal has a nice article on Automating Government with e-Governance. It discusses Linux usage by the Indian government to improve the lives of the rural poor (interesting look at how the IT boom in India is benefiting the poor). The article covers some of the difficulties in deploying Linux in non-English languages for government usage. Good read for those looking at Linux in e-Governance projects and a good follow up to a previous article by Tom Adelstein. In support of full disclosure: I wrote the article and the platform was developed by Delixus, my current company."

22 of 256 comments (clear)

  1. And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Gandhi was swept into office, until she declined it, by the poor who felt left out of the economic boom. One of these observations disagrees with the other.

    If linux has been helping the poor, it wasn't very much in their eyes.

    1. Re:And yet... by AgntOrnge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would have to guess the poor don't even know what or have never even heard of Linux. If I were living in abject poverty I think I'd be more concerned with putting food on the table or having a roof over my head than realzing the benefits of some silly computer.

  2. Prime Minister by MulluskO · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Although Ghandi has refused the position, I heard that one of the main reasons the previous prime minister of India was so unpredictably ousted was because the rural constituents felt marginalized by his focus on developing high-tech industry while regular industries and agriculture were suffering. I think there's a luddite streak running through the Indian poor that was previously unnoticed.

    --

    Too busy staying alive... ~ R.A.
    1. Re:Prime Minister by the-build-chicken · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't know whether wanting to be able to eat makes you a luddite?

    2. Re:Prime Minister by arvindn · · Score: 4, Informative
      Nice theory you've got, but the reason for the election result has little to do with technology. The old government, apart from being Hindu nationalist, was obsessed with macroeconomic growth parameters (GDP, Foreign investment etc) with the result that wealth was concentrated in the hands of a few and the poor became poorer. To top it off, their main electoral campaign was called "India shining" in which they showcased their economic "achievements" which the rural folk felt was of no relevance to them. On the other hand, the opposing party promised free power, water etc. As a result the right wing parties received a sound thrashing.

      I know people who've worked to bring technology to villages in India, and its my opinion that its helped the country a lot.

  3. Linux isn't all that common by bobhagopian · · Score: 5, Informative

    On a recent trip to India, I could not help but notice that not a single computer I encountered was running Linux, despite all the hype (and I saw hundreds of computers). They were all running pirated copies of Windows 95 and 98. When you have the ability to pirate software (without any real fear of prosecution), there's one less incentive to switch to free (as in $0, not as in freedom) software. Usability isn't a real concern to those at the lowest socioeconomic levels; what matters is the mere existence of computer technology.

    1. Re:Linux isn't all that common by arvindn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I wonder where you looked? Linux is very common in universities here. I know for a fact that in the last year a large number of businesses, both IT and otherwise, have been switching employees to linux. Linux usage is definitely higher here than in the U.S.

    2. Re:Linux isn't all that common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm a US born Indian, so I have a good idea of what both US and Indian cultures are like. I'm also an Engineer, so I know a fair number of technical people in both countries.

      Recently, I spent four months touring India, top to bottom, east to west. I can tell you that the *VAST MAJORITY* of people there use pirated copies of MS software.

      Most of the people I encountered, even people in "IT" programs at colleges, were only aware of MS products. Most had not a clue what Linux or FreeBSD were. When I installed Mozilla on their machines they didn't even know web browsers other than IE existed...they though that MS invented the web browser. Exceptions to this ignorance were those at the absolute premier educational institutes and some in industry but by percentage it was very very *very* small.

      Also, I think the parent is wrong on one point, usability is actually a big factor. After all, when you install Linux and something doesn't work, the majority of us spend time on-line searching for answers (i.e. why does LILO give me "LI"?).

      If a dial-up connection isn't available (or even reliable) how do you troubleshoot? How do you download kernel sources or even 1 - 2MB packages on unreliable software-based 56k modems that connect at 21.6 kbps?

      The reality is that most people there are fine with a half-assed Win98SE based installation. Most home users, even those of affluence with fast P4s, don't realize all the different things PCs can be used for. For them e-mail, simple word processing and older DOS games are the extent to which they use it.

      And as for Linux helping farmers, I have to cry nonsense. Much of time I spent was in vasty rural areas (agricultural villages where a lot of my family is) and I can tell you finding someone with a good telephone connection is rare let alone someone with even a 286 PC...

    3. Re:Linux isn't all that common by Ba3r · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is very true.

      I was in India in the fall of 2002, and I remember buying a full version of warez'd Windows XP, Office XP, and a host of other warez programs on cd on the streets of Bombay. For 150 rupees a cd (about 3 dollars, and i probably overpaid!).

      The most amusing part was that the clearly pirated cds had 'copyright 2002' writen on them. There is almost no visible copyright enforcement in India that i have noticed, and the very notion of it does not seem to be very prevalent in Indian culture. For an example of this, i have found that many c# articles have been plagarized, usually following a scheme of 1 western author to n Indian authors. I am not implying that the majority of Indian developers disregard copyrights, but in my experience a disproportionate minority do

  4. this is a complicated question by v1x · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The outcomes of the latest election were interpreted by the political experts as an outright rejection of the notion that the country's newly-found strength in IT had benefitted the rural poor. In the light of this, it would seem unlikely that any one technology (not just Linux) would have had a noticeable improvement in their lives. Then again, perception and reality can sometimes be two completely opposite things, so one can never be sure of that either.

  5. Who knows? by j3ll0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    He holds an MBA in Information Technology and a BA in Economics and frequently speaks on the topics of Linux and offshore outsourcing.

    and here is the root of the problem... Economists always seek commoditization and Linux is a very difficult product to commoditize. The very breadth of Linux, and cornucopia of environments\applications that the term refers to makes it a very difficult thing to quantify.

    Also, note that the trend of outsourcing is pretty much technology independent, and recognizes that the people are the expensive part of the equation.

    In short, I guess the answer is "Well, maybe, but that's not Linux's fault... ;)"

    and I can't wait to see how the slashbots reconcile an outsourcing expert talking up Linux :D

    1. Re:Who knows? by Soko · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I beg to differ with your "Linux is a very difficult product to commoditize" statement. Linux is turning operating systems into a commodity - the tool is cheap, it's the expertise to use that particular tool that's pricey.

      As with any tool, you have to take the good with the bad. Linux cannot choose sides - as this post points out, Linux is just software - it itself has no moral compass.

      Too, which side of the equation you on seems to define the morality - if you're someone who made out like a bandit in the .com era and are now struggling, outsourcing is bad. If you're a poor farmer in India whose child just turned the educaion that you paid for with the sweat of your brow into a steady, paying job, outsourcing is good.

      I've been affected by outsourcing myself - the job I held was "terminated" since the whole department was picked up and moved to a cheaper part of the country. Different story, same effect - I was out of a job for a year, and took a lower paying position to feed my family.

      Anyone "talking up Linux" is good, IMHO - even my former employers. As you said, it's not Linux's fault. It's just market forces in action.

      Soko

      --
      "Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
  6. Yes... by syousef · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...but only because the only way things can go for the poor of India is up. When you're poor and live in a 3rd world country it basically doesn't take much to make your life a little better. (note: this does not mean good). Free software means reduced administration costs for any organisation/government trying to help these people.

    All other things being equal:

    Poor + something good for free = still poor but a little better off.

    The Indian "IT boom" is at least partly the result of outsourcing and paying coders a hell of a lot less money than they should be earning given the effort they're putting in. Thing is if you're scratching in the dirt trying to find a feed, you just aren't in a position to turn work down no matter how bad. So yeah their life is improved from poverty to slavery. They won't starve but they sure as hell aren't free to prosper.

    Just so I'm clear I'm in favour of the use of free (as in beer) software in a poor country, just not in favour of outsourcing (which is what I attribute India's IT boom to).

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Yes... by arvindn · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Sorry, your theory about the Indian IT boom is mostly nonsense.

      The cost of living is 8 times lower here in India than in the U.S. What would be an underpaid job in the U.S is a princely salary in India. Programmers are among the highest paid professions in India. So your opinion that Indian IT workers are exploited is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

      Of course, if you say that offshore outsourcing is unfair to American IT workers I won't debate you on that. But please try to get it into your head that there are no IT sweatshops in India. IT has in fact made millions of workers filthy rich.

  7. please OMG by Ckwop · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not trolling.. I'm not a troll (look at my history to see that) but seriously..

    LINUX IS JUST SOFTWARE.

    It will not:

    1.) Feed the hungry.
    2.) Bring world peace.
    3.) Become a viable renewable power source.

    It's just free software.. and that's a good thing.. :D

    Simon.

  8. Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India? by acceber · · Score: 5, Informative
    Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?...Linux with its low cost, high security and open standards is rapidly becoming the driving force behind this revolution.
    Although living standards have dramatically improved for all Indians, it is still widely considered to be a third world country.

    Approximately 25% of the Indian population are below the poverty line

    The water supply is so polluted that people must buy or boil their water.

    The poor are discriminated against in education.

    Health care in India? What health care?

    If Linux claims to improve the life of the poor in India and proves it, even if it's "just" computers, then it's addressing the very real and continually growing division between the rich and the poor in regards to technology and computer use.

    Hell, some people have never seen or heard of what a computer is.

  9. No. Your outsourced job is. by AvantLegion · · Score: 4, Funny
    DEY TOOK ERR JAHBS!

  10. The answer is No by romit_icarus · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Indians have more immediate needs, water and electricity (pani aur bijli), before they can seek the benefits of e-governance.

    That's the reason why Chandrababu Naidu, a sophisticated and technology-aggressive politician, got the boot.

    Good basic governance comes before e-governance.

  11. Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India? by antic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Visiting India is an eye-opening experience. I was there earlier this year. I've seen poor areas in Vietnam, China, Peru, etc. None of those compared to some of the sights in India where children play in beaches covered in rubbish (I don't mean a few scraps, I mean that the sand is literally under a two foot layer of garbage), frolic in water that is absolutely soup-full of rubbish.

    In train stations, it's hard to even move because the number of people is just incredible. Overnight, thousands of people sleep on the floors of stations. It's hard to walk through, stepping amongst and even on bodies.

    In Bangalore (known for its IT businesses) the main train station had *one* computer in the ticketing area where travellers could check their seat numbers. You can imagine the line...

    Even booking a train ticket 5 days in advance, you come across trains with waiting lists 30-100s over-subscribed. On one occasion, we assumed we were booking with time to spare only to find this sort of situation, and we were forced to fly from Kochi to Mumbai so that we wouldn't miss our flight onwards.

    Wages are obscenely low. One could go over there on a measly Western wage, live in luxury and have 10 full-time staff (chefs, drivers, cleaners, etc) and barely notice a dent in their income.

    You will walk into a restaurant and be waited on by about 8 people. Service staff nearly always outnumber diners. It comes down to the fact that a billion people *have* to be employed somehow.

    By all means, implement systems that speed up processes (because they are ridiculously slow in India) but don't remove any potential to employ more people. And I think that a wonder-system based on Linux could have limited appeal in a country that absolutely *lives* on taking forever to accomplish simple tasks. They're smart people, but FFS Indians have ludicrously difficult processes.

    I'm not shitting you that I say that in a train station, you need to get a ticket booking request form, not to book a ticket (that'd be too obvious), but just to request a ticket booking form. Desks, queues, forms, meticulous, pains-taking handwriting -- that's just India!

    --
    'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
  12. Here is a radical idea by logicnazi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Improve the lives of indians by letting them have jobs!!

    Yes, this means not discriminating against them because they aren't US citizens. An indian citizen is no less deserving than someone in the USA of a high standard of living. If we are really concerned about the livelihoods of our fellow humans (and not some bizarre ideology where american lives are worth more than indian lives) this means abandoning all these silly 'buy american' campaigns or protesting when IT companies outsource.

    --

    If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

  13. Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India? by RobinH · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Although living standards have dramatically improved for all Indians, it is still widely considered to be a third world country.
    -Approximately 25% of the Indian population are below the poverty line
    -The water supply is so polluted that people must buy or boil their water.
    -The poor are discriminated against in education.
    -Health care in India? What health care?


    So, when reading this, did anyone else think that with the exception of the water supply issue, these are all applicable to the U.S. as well? Obviously not to the same degree, but still.

    --
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
  14. India's poor and IT by opos · · Score: 4, Informative

    Ten years ago, I taught at the Indian Institute of Technology - Madras, and met Prof. Kalyana Krishnan. At that time Krishnan was struggling with how to render characters on a web page so that he would produce Hindi, Tamil, etc web pages. Over the years, Krishnan's project has expanded, now has voice rendering of web pages and was recently recognized as a major innovation benefiting many in India. His project website will give you an idea of the tools he and his students are bringing to all of India. e-Governance is a small segment of the challenges facing India. Skilled practitioners, coming from the IITs in India are effectively penetrating the digital divide.