Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

mood6 writes "Linux Journal has a nice article on Automating Government with e-Governance. It discusses Linux usage by the Indian government to improve the lives of the rural poor (interesting look at how the IT boom in India is benefiting the poor). The article covers some of the difficulties in deploying Linux in non-English languages for government usage. Good read for those looking at Linux in e-Governance projects and a good follow up to a previous article by Tom Adelstein. In support of full disclosure: I wrote the article and the platform was developed by Delixus, my current company."

Comments

And yet...

[Anonymous Coward]

Gandhi was swept into office, until she declined it, by the poor who felt left out of the economic boom. One of these observations disagrees with the other.

If linux has been helping the poor, it wasn't very much in their eyes.

Re:And yet...

[AgntOrnge]

I would have to guess the poor don't even know what or have never even heard of Linux. If I were living in abject poverty I think I'd be more concerned with putting food on the table or having a roof over my head than realzing the benefits of some silly computer.

Re:And yet...

[The Cydonian]

Let's just that's mostly bullshit peddled particularly by the international media which apparently wants to see just about everything in terms of the so-called globalisation debate.

Let's face facts:- the Indian electorate had already voted for the reforms policy and, if you will e-governance in the 1999 elections. Even a cursory analysis of the voting pattern would in fact show that these results were less of a poor-versus-rich vote, and more of a get-that-fat-cat-politician-out-he's-taken-enough- bribes-already vote. Helps if you get your alliances right as well.

Re:And yet...

[iminplaya]

Gandhi was swept into office...

I'm convinced that she was "ousted" by the stock market in India (with the "help" of Wall St.) She was probably aware of the turmoil that would reseult from the market panic caused by the news of her victory and she put the general welfare of the counrty ahead of any personal desires. If only western politicians would do the same. Indeed a wise and thoughtful if unfortunate move. Once again, democracy is trumped by big business. When she declined to become PM, notice how quickly the market "recovered". Pretty neat trick, and quite sad at the same time. Any one else see it that way?

Prime Minister

[MulluskO]

Although Ghandi has refused the position, I heard that one of the main reasons the previous prime minister of India was so unpredictably ousted was because the rural constituents felt marginalized by his focus on developing high-tech industry while regular industries and agriculture were suffering. I think there's a luddite streak running through the Indian poor that was previously unnoticed.

Re:Prime Minister

[the-build-chicken]

I don't know whether wanting to be able to eat makes you a luddite?

Re:Prime Minister

[eericson]

I doubt it's so much a luddite streak as much as it's a "I haven't eaten in 2 days" streak.

Agriculture is easily understood by the impoverished, and it has tangible benefits in the short term (i.e., more food). While it won't allow for long term growth, it does fill an immediate need.

Re:Prime Minister

[arvindn]

Nice theory you've got, but the reason for the election result has little to do with technology. The old government, apart from being Hindu nationalist, was obsessed with macroeconomic growth parameters (GDP, Foreign investment etc) with the result that wealth was concentrated in the hands of a few and the poor became poorer. To top it off, their main electoral campaign was called "India shining" in which they showcased their economic "achievements" which the rural folk felt was of no relevance to them. On the other hand, the opposing party promised free power, water etc. As a result the right wing parties received a sound thrashing.

I know people who've worked to bring technology to villages in India, and its my opinion that its helped the country a lot.

Re:Prime Minister

[Ralph Yarro]

I don't know whether wanting to be able to eat makes you a luddite?

He may have been using the term more literaly than you're used to but yes, it was concerns like that that motivated the luddites.

Re:Prime Minister

[cujo_1111]

I thought Hindus weren't allowed to eat beef?

Sorry :)

Re:Prime Minister

[Gopal.V]

Ha, you forget that both NDA and Congress alliances are both Right Front parties ... Though CPM did wipe out Cong in places like Kerala (which is ruled by Congress , but which failed to get even a single seat)... Coming from Kerala, I think it's a BAD THING (TM) for a state gov to be not represented in the centre.

Re:Prime Minister

[kamapuaa]

It's not a strong match - Luddites are associated with people whose current job was threatened by technological advance, and would rather slow progress than be forced to re-start their careers. India's rural poor don't have work that's threatened by India's technological advances. It's a non-issue. They're not smashing computers in the streets. In fact the discontent is because they'd like more technological advances, but in the form of running water, electricity, etc.

To my mind, economies are healthiest when there's a possibility of economic migration for exceptionally talented poor. India doesn't have a working public education system or basic utilities, so how can those from poor areas even hope to improve? The previous government's bragging about technological extravagences showed their priorities were out of wack. It's not that you have to end all suffering in the nation, but having, say, non-fatal drinking water should have been a higher priority.

In the much richer USA, many Slashdotters are opposed to the Mars program, thinking it takes resources that could better be used elsewhere - that hardly means they're all Luddites!

Re:Prime Minister

[Lucius Septimius Sev]

What the hell are you talking about? Most of the rural poor are farmers and have enough to eat what they do not have is enough to sell because their plots of land are extremely small. Like most third world/developing nations the problem is switching over from farming to industry or the service sector. Yes you might find someone going hungry but they will be in the cities not the rural areas.

Re:Prime Minister

[LaCosaNostradamus]

developing high-tech industry while regular industries and agriculture were suffering

Ohio's Governor Bob Taft may have tried such a thing, too, but the voters of Ohio threw a monkey wrench into his plans. I can hardly call resistance to outright wealth concentration being a "luddite streak". Investment of public funds in high-tech while letting the rural areas languish is nothing but class warfare. This is what really happened in Ohio; if this is what really happened in India, then the Indian people made a sensible choice.

Re:Prime Minister

[vu2lid]

Obviously you have absolutely no idea what you are talikng about. To quote from an article by Arundhati Roy:

Meanwhile, economists cheering from the pages of corporate newspapers inform us that the GDP growth rate is phenomenal, unprecedented. Shops are overflowing with consumer goods. Government storehouses are overflowing with grain. Outside this circle of light, the past five years have seen the most violent increase in rural-urban income inequalities since independence. Farmers steeped in debt are committing suicide in hundreds; 40% of the rural population in India has the same foodgrain absorption level as sub-Saharan Africa, and 47% of Indian children under three suffer from malnutrition.

Linux isn't all that common

[bobhagopian]

On a recent trip to India, I could not help but notice that not a single computer I encountered was running Linux, despite all the hype (and I saw hundreds of computers). They were all running pirated copies of Windows 95 and 98. When you have the ability to pirate software (without any real fear of prosecution), there's one less incentive to switch to free (as in $0, not as in freedom) software. Usability isn't a real concern to those at the lowest socioeconomic levels; what matters is the mere existence of computer technology.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[LoztInSpace]

I'll second that.
What I also noticed that in the internet cafes the 'solution' to a crappy connection that kept dropping out was to right-click the desktop and choose 'Refresh' from the menu a couple of times then try again.
Fuck knows what the Linux equivalent to this would be. Dead chicken waving?

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[arvindn]

I wonder where you looked? Linux is very common in universities here. I know for a fact that in the last year a large number of businesses, both IT and otherwise, have been switching employees to linux. Linux usage is definitely higher here than in the U.S.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[SuperSnooper]

Could you define "recent"? The not-running-Linux part I can understand....usage of Linux is still pretty low here in India...but Windows 95 and 98? Please...In the past year or so, I must have seen maybe 5 machines running Windows 98, and none at all running 95...this includes two companies I've worked with, and about 500 computers at the campus where I'm studying (including students' personal computers, not just lab computers)...

Btw, on campus, not a single person is running on Linux....quite a few dual-boots, though...

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a US born Indian, so I have a good idea of what both US and Indian cultures are like. I'm also an Engineer, so I know a fair number of technical people in both countries.

Recently, I spent four months touring India, top to bottom, east to west. I can tell you that the *VAST MAJORITY* of people there use pirated copies of MS software.

Most of the people I encountered, even people in "IT" programs at colleges, were only aware of MS products. Most had not a clue what Linux or FreeBSD were. When I installed Mozilla on their machines they didn't even know web browsers other than IE existed...they though that MS invented the web browser. Exceptions to this ignorance were those at the absolute premier educational institutes and some in industry but by percentage it was very very *very* small.

Also, I think the parent is wrong on one point, usability is actually a big factor. After all, when you install Linux and something doesn't work, the majority of us spend time on-line searching for answers (i.e. why does LILO give me "LI"?).

If a dial-up connection isn't available (or even reliable) how do you troubleshoot? How do you download kernel sources or even 1 - 2MB packages on unreliable software-based 56k modems that connect at 21.6 kbps?

The reality is that most people there are fine with a half-assed Win98SE based installation. Most home users, even those of affluence with fast P4s, don't realize all the different things PCs can be used for. For them e-mail, simple word processing and older DOS games are the extent to which they use it.

And as for Linux helping farmers, I have to cry nonsense. Much of time I spent was in vasty rural areas (agricultural villages where a lot of my family is) and I can tell you finding someone with a good telephone connection is rare let alone someone with even a 286 PC...

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[Tore S B]

No, it's quirks like that which made me switch to Linux in the first place. The problem would not be there in the beginning.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[Anonymous Coward]

In Sri Lanka (similar conditions to India, bit richer, slower growth, much more even distribution of wealth) everyone uses pirated windows on the desktop.

Linux is becoming increasingly common on corporate and academic servers and I have recently (in the lst few months) noticed job ads asking for Linux experience and ads for Linux courses for the first time.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[Ba3r]

This is very true.

I was in India in the fall of 2002, and I remember buying a full version of warez'd Windows XP, Office XP, and a host of other warez programs on cd on the streets of Bombay. For 150 rupees a cd (about 3 dollars, and i probably overpaid!).

The most amusing part was that the clearly pirated cds had 'copyright 2002' writen on them. There is almost no visible copyright enforcement in India that i have noticed, and the very notion of it does not seem to be very prevalent in Indian culture. For an example of this, i have found that many c# articles have been plagarized, usually following a scheme of 1 western author to n Indian authors. I am not implying that the majority of Indian developers disregard copyrights, but in my experience a disproportionate minority do

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[freedom_india]

i don;t where you went and installed Mozilla and then found that people misunderstood MS as the inventor of browser, etc... Exceptions to this ignorance were those at the absolute premier educational institutes ... You are way wrong or lying. Premiers of educational institutions are the ones who know nothing about Mozilla, IE. You should have visited IIT, BITS, and you would be surprised by their brilliance (which is where our homegrown WLL technology was invented).

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[freedom_india]

True. I agree, you can buy for Rs.150 cracked copies of Windows XP. Hell, in fact i run a Reset5.exe cracked copy of Windows XP at home. I paid Rs.3900/- for a legal copy of WIndows 98 last year and i will be damned if iam to pay 10% of my salary this year to pay for an OS.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[ashayh]

As another Indian I testify that parent post is perfect.
Mod up.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[CustomDesigned]

I am an American with three Indian families for neighbors. They have all recently moved here to work in Tech (software) industry. Most have not heard of Linux. One wife works for Oracle, and uses Windows, Linux, and Sun servers interchangeably.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[bobhagopian]

Recent meaning less than one year ago. I suspect that arvindn's comments on the ubiquity of Linux are accurate of academia and some other technical settings, but let's not forget that 99% of the Indian population is neither academic nor technical. Once you distance yourselves from the universities, Linux disappears.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[jack_csk]

One important question would be:
Are these companies switched to Linux because of the software sales + licenses cost or stability + security?

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[jack_csk]

I would agree that the pricing of software was a headache to computer users in India, as well as China. Many people out there have extremely low salary, and buying a legal copy of Windows XP already cost a large portion of their salaries. In fact, I wish the poor computer users in those countries would turn their head to open source software - not for the price, but for the flexibility and freedom instead of paying all those bullshit overpriced upgrades.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[LoztInSpace]

I wasn't suggesting it was at all effective. Just wondering what the Linux version of such superstitious behaviour would be.
ls
ls
ls
try again...?
never mind.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[rksubbu]

Your point about troubleshooting and using kernel resources using a modem connection is very strong and very correct. Actually, knowledge of linux among Indians in India is very minimal and is increasing very slowly. There are a handful of my friends working in India who do serious development in open source. However, it is a complete contrast to Indians outside India. BTW, did you know the President of India met with Richard Stallman recently and is supporter of OSS? Open source means better control, definitive cost savings, less cost implies less of citizen's tax. Now, how far will all-prevalent-corruption will really be a tax saving - different question to answer.

Re:Linux isn't all that common

[ahaly]

I am a India born Indian. I have spent time in both countries. And I would like to ask the following questions about this thread: -> If accessing MS software is easy, why would I still be using 95 and 98? Why wouldn't I upgrade to next best thing. My point: when really did you visit India? Most of the people I know have upgraded to XP pirated software. -> As already pointed out somewhere getting a CD which has all MS stuff - multiple versions of OS, Office etc for less than 3 dollars is easy. So give me one reaason the common man should go to Linux for his daily computer use. He uses dialup to connect to the net - so worms and virus are not so much a problem. -> I dont know which IT people you talked to - but just mention to them that they have a job interview and they will tell you all the UNIX things they 'need to know'. -> Mozilla - what is that? Mozilla in India - download all that over the internet connection - what are you thinking about? My point is that they don't care what is out there. They are happy with two things - what satisfies my daily browsing & computing needs and what I need to know to get a job if I am IT student. That's it. Hell I dont even need to know that Slashdot exsists.

In many poor...

[Phidoux]

... and developing countries Linux offers a viable alternative to commercial software (Read Microsoft). Linux offers a wonderful opportunity to provide services in many cash strapped communities and is really helping to bridge the "digital divide".

The company I work for has recently started a program of donating old PCs to schools in various parts of our country. Of course the schools (Who can't afford to buy hardware) can't afford the licensing fees on commercial software, so Linux (And many other open source products) is filling the gap and providing working systems for teaching and learning.

Re:In many poor...

[grcumb]

I couldn't agree more.

I'm working in the South Pacific as an IT volunteer, and let me tell how, the things that FOSS makes possible are great.

A local NGO, which has a total of $0.00 to spend on hardware, is running a dial-on-demand Internet server with proper firewalling features on a Pentium 100 machine that they purchased in 1997.

This same organisation has just been chosen to pilot a project that will use HF radios to create whopping 1 Kbps email links between isolated villages in this island nation. FOSS is the *only* viable contender in terms of robustness, affordability and the ability to even run on the kind of low-cost, low-power equipment we need for this.

I just posted some observations on FOSS in development to my online journal yesterday, too.

How about the impact on US?

[Bender_]

The application of Linux in India lowers cost of setting up a new software sweat shop. It also allows more people to be schooled in software development, that previously could not afford education. Implication => More US jobs can be outsourced, cheaper.

I am not sure any American software developer would like to do anything to help getting more IT jobs outsourced.

Re:How about the impact on US?

[tanguyr]

Yeah, what about European jobs?

Not so many thus far (except the UK). Not a lot of people in India speak French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc etc. It's kind of ironic, given that the cost of hiring people in places like Belgium and Germany is HUGE - much much higher than in the US or UK. Probably a business opportunity there helping employers outsource these jobs.

Re:How about the impact on US?

[Bender_]

Not a lot of people in India speak French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc etc.

Dont worry, the new eastern european EU member have ample supply of cheap workers than are fluent in german, french and other languages. Spanish and Italian may not be required as these countries already have their own underpaid workers in the poorer parts of the country.

Re:How about the impact on US?

[tanguyr]

Dont worry, the new eastern european EU member have ample supply of cheap workers than are fluent in german, french and other languages.
Not really accurate - these countries have an ample supply of relatively cheaper workers, some of whom are fluent in German, but relatively less in French or even English. In the short term, we're more likely to see them applying for jobs in western europe (where, btw, they still need a work permit) rather than have the jobs go to them. And for every job "lost" by a western european to an eastern european, a matching job will be destroyed in eastern europe to the profit of companies in western europe (like how are small family run dairy farms in poland going to compete with french or italian industrial dairies?) Finally, this gap will fill in much faster than the US/Indian gap will - look at how fast eastern germany was assimilated after reunification.

Spanish and Italian may not be required as these countries already have their own underpaid workers in the poorer parts of the country.
I haven't heard about the hordes of cheap programmers in spain and italy - heck, i know people working in IT in spain who make good money and enjoy a good life. Average income in southern europe has been lower than in northern europe for a long time, and yet the jobs (at least the IT jobs we're talking about) haven't moved south to date - why expect this to change?

Re:How about the impact on US?

[Mant]

While I'm sure some "software sweat shops" exist, a lot of people doing outsourced IT work in India have good working conditions, even by western standards.

I know its popular to think of the people doing the work as being exploited, helps people think of outsourcing as bad, but many of them are not being exploited. They are paid less, but the cost of living is much, much lower in India than the US (or UK).

Re:How about the impact on US?

[dave1791]

My emplorer is a large software firm based in Germany. There is an official policy from top management: 0 new hiring in the US or Germany as these are two of the more expensive (per developer) development centers (Tokyo is #1, but that is mostly localization). New hiring seems to be concentrated in Bangalore.

Re:How about the impact on US?

[tanguyr]

New hiring seems to be concentrated in Bangalore.

Are these people in Bangalore employees of your company or are they employees of a subcontractor, and does that make a difference?

this is a complicated question

[v1x]

The outcomes of the latest election were interpreted by the political experts as an outright rejection of the notion that the country's newly-found strength in IT had benefitted the rural poor. In the light of this, it would seem unlikely that any one technology (not just Linux) would have had a noticeable improvement in their lives. Then again, perception and reality can sometimes be two completely opposite things, so one can never be sure of that either.

Re:this is a complicated question

[Anonymous Coward]

"I just love how dumb Americans can be. Let's take one sentence and use it to describe a nation "

The definition of recursive stupidity...

Who knows?

[j3ll0]

He holds an MBA in Information Technology and a BA in Economics and frequently speaks on the topics of Linux and offshore outsourcing.

and here is the root of the problem... Economists always seek commoditization and Linux is a very difficult product to commoditize. The very breadth of Linux, and cornucopia of environments\applications that the term refers to makes it a very difficult thing to quantify.

Also, note that the trend of outsourcing is pretty much technology independent, and recognizes that the people are the expensive part of the equation.

In short, I guess the answer is "Well, maybe, but that's not Linux's fault... ;)"

and I can't wait to see how the slashbots reconcile an outsourcing expert talking up Linux :D

Re:Who knows?

[Soko]

I beg to differ with your "Linux is a very difficult product to commoditize" statement. Linux is turning operating systems into a commodity - the tool is cheap, it's the expertise to use that particular tool that's pricey.

As with any tool, you have to take the good with the bad. Linux cannot choose sides - as this post points out, Linux is just software - it itself has no moral compass.

Too, which side of the equation you on seems to define the morality - if you're someone who made out like a bandit in the .com era and are now struggling, outsourcing is bad. If you're a poor farmer in India whose child just turned the educaion that you paid for with the sweat of your brow into a steady, paying job, outsourcing is good.

I've been affected by outsourcing myself - the job I held was "terminated" since the whole department was picked up and moved to a cheaper part of the country. Different story, same effect - I was out of a job for a year, and took a lower paying position to feed my family.

Anyone "talking up Linux" is good, IMHO - even my former employers. As you said, it's not Linux's fault. It's just market forces in action.

Soko

Re:Who knows?

[StrawberryFrog]

Economists always seek commoditization and Linux is a very difficult product to commoditize.

Um, I thoguht that Linux was (part of) the comoditization of operating systems - ie it is part of the trend of operating systems becoming a widely available, cheap commodity; and that what Microsoft, Apple et all are trying to do in the market is decomoditization, ie trying to give people the idea, rightely or wrongly, that their product is different to other operating systems, much like Coca-Cola is regarded as different (and hence more valuable) than generic commodity soda-water.

Re:Who knows?

[j3ll0]

Perhaps I didn't express my sentiment very well...

Linux IS a very difficult product to commoditize. Shall we install Debian, Suse, Redhat, Slackware, Gentoo, LFS or someother distro? What's the difference between the distros? How do I know I'm picking the right one?

Compare and contrast with for example the Microsoft way of doing things (and this is not an MS advocacy). There is Windows 2003 server. Want a File and Print box? W2K3. Want a Web Server? W2K3. Want a SQL server? W2K3 + one clearly defined addon. Want a Mail Server? W2K3 + one clearly defined addon.

Look at the Futures market. You don't buy Australian Pork Bellies, you don't buy US pork bellies, and you don't buy Chinese pork bellies. You buy Pork Bellies.

When you look at it like that, MS has a commoditized product, whereas the Linux 'marketplace' is fragmented.

It's for this very reason that when I evangelize, I push FreeBSD.

Re:Who knows?

[McDutchie]

Linux IS a very difficult product to commoditize. Shall we install Debian, Suse, Redhat, Slackware, Gentoo, LFS or someother distro? What's the difference between the distros? How do I know I'm picking the right one?
[...]
It's for this very reason that when I evangelize, I push FreeBSD.

Ah... so why not NetBSD or OpenBSD or BSDI? How do you know you're picking the right one?

Re:Who knows?

[abe ferlman]

That's like saying the swiss army knife is difficult to commoditize because it can't make its mind up about what kind of tool it is.

Re:Who knows?

[Minna Kirai]

MS has a commoditized product,

You seem to have no idea what "commoditize" means. By definition, MS's products are non-commodities, because only one entity supplies them to the market. With commodities, the large number of sellers means none of them has power to choose prices.

In a non-commodity market, raising the price you charge a small amount will cause a small reduction in sales, which could either increase or decrease net revenue. But if you're selling a commodity, then a small price increase will cause a large (or even total) drop in sales (think about what you'd do if one fuel station is $0.1 more than the others).

Linux distros are actual commodities, and that poses revenue problems for the companies that work on them. SUSE Linux, for example, is available not only from Novell, but also from any random guy who declares himself a "Linux Support Contractor". So the Linux distro itself can only ever have a low price- the corporations' sales depend on the perception that they bundle superior additional services.

Please note that your argument about the variety of possible distros does somewhat support the idea that Linux is not a commodity- but each particular Linux distro is a commodity of it's own kind.

Re:Who knows?

[jack_csk]

I know this is a bit out-topic, but hope it doesn't hurt my karma badly...

Your sig " -sig begins- GPL == VACCINE" reminds me a funny scene:
Imagine Torvalds says that to Gates: "You are the disease, I'm the cure"

Yes...

[syousef]

...but only because the only way things can go for the poor of India is up. When you're poor and live in a 3rd world country it basically doesn't take much to make your life a little better. (note: this does not mean good). Free software means reduced administration costs for any organisation/government trying to help these people.

All other things being equal:

Poor + something good for free = still poor but a little better off.

The Indian "IT boom" is at least partly the result of outsourcing and paying coders a hell of a lot less money than they should be earning given the effort they're putting in. Thing is if you're scratching in the dirt trying to find a feed, you just aren't in a position to turn work down no matter how bad. So yeah their life is improved from poverty to slavery. They won't starve but they sure as hell aren't free to prosper.

Just so I'm clear I'm in favour of the use of free (as in beer) software in a poor country, just not in favour of outsourcing (which is what I attribute India's IT boom to).

Re:Yes...

[arvindn]

Sorry, your theory about the Indian IT boom is mostly nonsense.

The cost of living is 8 times lower here in India than in the U.S. What would be an underpaid job in the U.S is a princely salary in India. Programmers are among the highest paid professions in India. So your opinion that Indian IT workers are exploited is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

Of course, if you say that offshore outsourcing is unfair to American IT workers I won't debate you on that. But please try to get it into your head that there are no IT sweatshops in India. IT has in fact made millions of workers filthy rich.

Re:Yes...

[mumblestheclown]

The Indian "IT boom" is at least partly the result of outsourcing and paying coders a hell of a lot less money than they should be earning given the effort they're putting in. Thing is if you're scratching in the dirt trying to find a feed, you just aren't in a position to turn work down no matter how bad. So yeah their life is improved from poverty to slavery. They won't starve but they sure as hell aren't free to prosper.

You're an idiot and don't know what the hell you're talking about.

So, you think that pay should be proportional to effort? By that standard, is there anybody who actually gets paid correctly?

Indian IT workers live and get paid like rockstars given PPP (purchasing power parity) reality. You're "won't starve" comment = "I am ignorant and am talking out of my ass."

Re:Yes...

[Gopal.V]

Of course, if you say that offshore outsourcing is unfair to American IT workers I won't debate you on that. But please try to get it into your head that there are no IT sweatshops in India. IT has in fact made millions of workers filthy rich.

Maybe you should come and work where I do ... It has made a few tens of thousand workers filthy rich ... The "millenium" generation of graduates are seeing the effect of undercut prices and salaries by outsourcing companies. IF you're in a service company in India as a programmer ,you're screwed ... unless you decide to screw the company.

I get paid around ~200$ per month and I've churned out about 7000 lines of embedded C code in the past month .... but salary hikes are still based on how old you are rather than how good ...

It's a capitalist economy and there are winners and losers ... Looks like the managers win and the programmers lose here in India. It's not any different for the little guys ..

Re:Yes...

[freedom_india]

hello there: No indian IT worker gets paid like a Rock Star. They get paid fairly nowadays. And some IT companies are well known to pay less even for good people. PPP is almost equal to the US now. Try living in Bangalore, or Bombay for Rs.30,000/- per month now. You WILL starve. India is getting costiler dude to live in. I, for one, am thinking of migrating elsewhere...

Re:Yes...

[ashayh]

IT has in fact made millions of workers filthy rich.
Filthy rich ? Definitely not. Comfortable or better than before ? Sure.
And millions ? Last time I check the Indian IT industry dosent even directly employ a million people.

Re:Yes...

[syousef]

The cost of living is 8 times lower here in India than in the U.S. What would be an underpaid job in the U.S is a princely salary in India. Programmers are among the highest paid professions in India.

What rubbish. The cost of subsisting is lower. The cost of any item taken for granted by a US/UK/Australia IT worker but considered a luxury is similar.

I'm thinking about buying a digital SLR in the next year or two. Tell me how many of your programmers paid a "princely salary" could even contemplate that.

But please try to get it into your head that there are no IT sweatshops in India. IT has in fact made millions of workers filthy rich.

Sure there are no IT sweatshops in India. And there's no torture in IRAQ and when I get home tonight I'll be fed bread and honey by fairies and nymphs. How niave.

And you say my "theory" is mostly "nonesense". Answer this: Would you consider immigrating to India?

Re:Yes...

[strider_starslayer]

uhh, he said he WAS from india...

howeer your point about the digital SLR and other high cost but not ridiculus in a nation like the EU, north ameria, or austrialia being well outside of the average indian workers budget, I imagine, still holds true (unlike what the previous poster claimed, I am not from india, nor have I ever traveled there)

Re:Yes...

[rksubbu]

Who moved my cheese??

Questionable...

[KRYnosemg33]

"A major business value provided by Linux to governments is freedom from outside influence by a foreign corporation, namely Microsoft."

That sounds great, but how is Delixus not trying to place themself in a similar position to Microsoft? Delixus is still trying to make a profit even if the OS is free. They claim Linux provides the ability to change vendors ... sure so does Microsoft. But everyone knows once any organization choses a software system (*cough* Delixus' e-Governance *cough*), they rarely change. This is not a Linux thing, it's a business thing.

"The Delixus e-Governance Platform uses a Web-based user interface to allow applicants to access the e-Governance application from any Internet cafe"

Again, this is great, but the article says near the top how pension offices were so far away from villages. Are internet cafes closer to villages than pension offices? Uhh...

please OMG

[Ckwop]

I'm not trolling.. I'm not a troll (look at my history to see that) but seriously..

LINUX IS JUST SOFTWARE.

It will not:

1.) Feed the hungry.
2.) Bring world peace.
3.) Become a viable renewable power source.

It's just free software.. and that's a good thing.. :D

Simon.

Re:please OMG

[vandenh]

Singapore?

Have you been there? They have a higher living standard than the US.

Anway.; back on topic. So you are saying companies switch to Linux to make more money, not because it is better? Interesting view..; that means Linux is caught in a catch 22. It wants to fight the big fat capitalist companies but is used as a tool by these (maybe not the same) companies to get rich. Hmmm....

Re:please OMG

[pnatural]

LINUX IS JUST SOFTWARE.

Really? I thought Linux was the most Free and most popular viable alternative to Microsoft operating systems. I also thought it was the virtual centerpiece of the Free Software Movement, which intends nothing short of making all distributed code Free code. I also thought it epitomizes a shift in software production and distribution that will destroy Microsoft one glorious day.

Am I wrong about that? I might be overstating the intent of the Free Software community, and I might be overstating the popularity of Linux. But in both cases, I'm probably not wrong by much.

It will not:

1.) Feed the hungry.

It sure could, if governments stop using tax revenues to pay Microsoft, and instead invested in agriculture, farming, and the like. (I realize those are two big "ifs" and I also realize that world hunger is now a political problem, not a logistics problem).

2.) Bring world peace.

No, but nothing will do that.

3.) Become a viable renewable power source.

You should tell that to IBM.

Thanks for playing!

Re:please OMG

[pdamoc]

well... it's all about perspective

1) It will feed the hungry if money spent on licences go charity/ social support.
2) It will bring world peace if people learn from its value of freedom, and its proof that it doesn't matter where you live, it doesn't matter how rich or poor are you, it doesn't matter what color your skin is you can still contribute to making this world better.
3) You got me here, I admit it cannot "Become a viable renewable power source" maybe just "Become a viable platform for people researching renewable power sources" (searching on Google for "renewable power source" linux does show 108 results ;) )

Re:please OMG

[Nuclear_Loser]

It will not:

1.) Feed the hungry.
2.) Bring world peace.
3.) Become a viable renewable power source.

Damn it! Well, there goes three more 6 month experiments to find alternative uses for Linux down the drain. I was really hoping that renewable power source theory would work too. Back to the chalkboard, fellas.

Re:please OMG

[Peldor]

LINUX IS JUST SOFTWARE.

It will not:

1.) Feed the hungry.
2.) Bring world peace.
3.) Become a viable renewable power source.

What's really ironic is that so many Linux advocates don't get that, but Bill Gates does. He's ripped into interviewers many times for asking ridiculous questions on how computers (& Windows) are going to help third world countries provide for the masses.

Food, clothing, & shelter come before Linux, OpenOffice, & cheap Internet.

Re:please OMG

[IAmMaxHarris]

1.) Feed the hungry.

It sure could, if governments stop using tax revenues to pay Microsoft, and instead invested in agriculture, farming, and the like. (I realize those are two big "ifs" and I also realize that world hunger is now a political problem, not a logistics problem).

Total bullshit. Where are your figures? Do you have any real numbers to substantiate your claim?

Poverty/hunger result from a lack of economic development. Meaningful economic development can only happen under capitalism.

Governments do not create wealth, even when they try. Twentieth-century history, anyone?

2.) Bring world peace.

No, but nothing will do that.

Global capitalism, increasing popularity of secular beliefs, and assertion of individual rights will do it.

See Andrew Bernstein's talk, "Global Capitalism: The Solution To World Poverty and Oppression"

Re:please OMG

[Minna Kirai]

1) It will feed the hungry if money spent on licences go charity/ social support.

Windows(r) feeds the hungry! The money Bill Gates takes from your licenses goes to charity/social support.

Re:please OMG

[Eccles]

Governments do not create wealth, even when they try.

No, but they can destroy it. Let's say that a government can choose between two otherwise equal alternatives for a service, one free, one not free. Which should they choose? A free one would allow them to reduce spending or spend more on other vital services.

Re:please OMG

[IAmMaxHarris]

No, but they can destroy it. Let's say that a government can choose between two otherwise equal alternatives for a service, one free, one not free. Which should they choose? A free one would allow them to reduce spending or spend more on other vital services.

If you meant Windows vs. Linux, or even a blanket statement about commercial vs. open or "free" software, the answer is no.

Windows and Linux are not equal, interchangeable products.

But this is all beside the point: even if we were to agree that using open or "free" software would save tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in a country like India, it wouldn't matter! Raising the income of every citizen by even a dollar every year totally pales in comparison with the hundreds of dollars in wealth people can make for themselves if capitalism is allowed to flourish.

Re:please OMG

[femto]

Difference being that Gates acts as a 'gatekeeper' (pun?) for the money, so the poor rely on his charity. If the poor save money for themselves (by using Free software), they are masters of their own destiny.

I'm not arguing that Gate's charity is a bad thing, just that it is the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish.

I will admit that I am not fully informed as to the what portion of Mr Gate's charity dollar goes to providing ready made solutions and what portion goes to promoting self sufficiency. If the emphasis is on self suficiency, that would close any gap.

Mod parent down

[CobwoyNeal]

RTFA before you troll.

Re:Mod parent down

[LordSah]

I did actually (go subscribers). I came away thinking that it was really talking about eGovernance, and how Linux was condusive to making it work. Everything mentioned could've been implemented on top of Windows (and since the Delixus website says eGovernance runs on Windows as well, I assume it has). I think it should've been "Is Technology Improving Life of Poor in India?", because it wasn't unique to Linux.

Re:Mod parent down

[sofar]

He actually has a point. I don't remember which other south-east asian country it was (thailand?) that had an 8% GBP increase mostly due to tech investments... guess what happened on the next election? The residing party that worked hard for that increase was kicked out harshly because it completely neglected poor anywhere in the country (both rural and non-rural).

Makes you wonder how the Indian elections were so surprisingly won by Mrs. Ghandi (who in fact was born a catholic Italian)... surprise? not really, should have seen that one coming!

Re:Mod parent down

[Tuqui]

I think it should've been "Is Technology Improving Life of Poor in India?", because it wasn't unique to Linux.

Then your logic is failed. The correct answer are:

Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India? Yes
Is uniquely Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India? No

Re:Mod parent down

[strictnein]

Makes you wonder how the Indian elections were so surprisingly won by Mrs. Ghandi

And even more suprisingly how the markets tanked afterwords and she withdrew.

improving?

[js3]

how is some piece of software going to improve your life if you're poor. It can improve your life if you're rich though

Re:improving?

[veriy]

Of course it can. I learn computer from a free (well, not free actually, pirated to be precisely) software. From that (not supposed to be) free software, now I understand about computer, and can difference which one is the real-free software and the pseudo-free software. :-)

Re:improving?

[swimmar132]

old computers + internet + linux = cheap learning.

The more educated you are, the more likely you are to have a higher quality of living.

That's one example anyways.

Re:improving?

[stor]

It's a two-pronged attack:

1) Dudes provide free software
2) Somehow, according to Bill Gates, free hardware comes about

Also speech and handwriting recognition will somehow happen (probably from MS, that'd be good). We'll be using basically free but not actually free tablet pc-thingies. Bill has forseen it.

Cheers
Stor

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[REBloomfield]

I have to agree, I was thinking the same thing. For all the hippy posturing that comes out of the Open Source movement, I really think that coming out with stuff like this stinks.

Linux in Developing Country

[veriy]

I'm sure India has better condition than other developing country in this world. For example, in my country, Linux (or OSS) grow is not really significant. People can have a copy of WindowsXP for just Rp. 5000,-- which is equal to 0,5 USD. btw, I'm in Indonesia :-)

Re:Linux in Developing Country

[melgeroth]

Yes but you speak from the wrong frame of reference: the cost may equate economically to a few bucks in USD, but often people in 3rd world countries have little to _no_ money. The cost of living in India, for example, is extremely low because money is hard to come by (not plurality of bills, but rather the amount of money in the hands of citizens), likewise for indonesia. Linux is supposedly offering a 'free lunch' option to these people who need all the free lunches they can get.

The important point here is whether or not enough people need or would use a computer, even were it incredibly cheap - for that answer turn to the article.

Linux helping the poor?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we getting a little too full of ourselves? Imagine the response Microsoft would get if they made such a claim.

Heck, why not just call me when Linux is less fattening and helps cure cancer, too.

Hardware?

[d4v3v1l]

What good is free Software without the Hardware to go with it? Or the Internet access to seriously get to use it?
Btw, in any case you rarely find a bought copy of windows in those parts...

pseudo analysts on slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok how are slshdotters supposed to know what's right for India? Frankly I dont give a damn about what slashdot thinks is right for India. We Indians know what's right for India. All the posts about "give them food & medicine first" that's all stupidness.

I'm going to go offtopic here, cause it's somewhat relevant plus I need to rant:

And all the faux intellectuals you see on TV, half of whom have never stepped on Indian soil, make me laugh as they try to analyze the Ghandi win. All this sudden chatter of the "negelcted poor" etc. this is all BS speech. The media's TV analysts have absolutely no clue how and why the poor in India votes.

The media has twisted Congress party to look to the outside world like they are anti market economy when in fact the opposite is true. Anyone who sees the election outcome in India as a leftward shift away from economic reforms has no clue what their talking about.

This win for congress has NOTHING to do with economics. The reforms were initiated in full force by Congress party. Everyone knows this.

India's economic reforms are on track and will remain so.

Re:pseudo analysts on slashdot

[Karora]

So, you're a slashdotter, and an Indian (so you assert, albeit anonymously). You're commenting on this. Why do you think others in Slashdot's readership can't be equally (or better) qualified?

I'm not Indian myself, and I don't pretend to know what's best for India either, but I'm sure that Slahdot's readership includes plenty of Indians and expatriate Indians who do have worthwhile things to share.

I think I'll stop now, because I'm starting to foam at the mouth... :-)

Re:pseudo analysts on slashdot

[immerrath]

Oh there is no way this guy is an Indian, and if he is, he should be ashamed of himself -- I thought only ignorant media people spell it "Ghandi"...

Re:pseudo analysts on slashdot

[The Original Yama]

I am Indian, and I think he/she makes good points.

Re:pseudo analysts on slashdot

[cybergrunt69]

No, I'm not an Indian. No, I haven't been to India. Yes, I am an American. Yes, I agree that the Indians know best what is good for India - if you are in/from India, please voice you opinion.

Specifically, I think that whatever computing platform is used, that India should look to other countries first to see their experiences and use that to gauge their future. Personally, I think that there are several Linux distributions that would be a good match - the biggest reason for this is cost. I've seen the price tags for running Windows/Unix/Mac in large companies and govt agencies - and it is obscene!

For that one reason alone, I hope some type of Penguin, Beasdie, etc beat the crap out of Clippy in the Indian computing arena. For the common folk, there is a really big choice - the popular free copy of Windows, or a (legitimate) free Linux distro. The biggest hurdle to overcome right now is making sure that everything in the package installation is in their language. It looks like there is some good progress with that, but there's always room for more, right?

Re:pseudo analysts on slashdot

[Killswitch1968]

The media has twisted Congress party to look to the outside world like they are anti market economy when in fact the opposite is true. Anyone who sees the election outcome in India as a leftward shift away from economic reforms has no clue what their talking about.

I don't care if you're from outerspace. If you're going to say that the newly elected liberal party is some-how not liberal, you better have a source.
If you don't you're just text on my screen.

Re:pseudo analysts on slashdot

[The Cydonian]

Incidentally, the reason they mis-spell it thus is because Feroz Ghandi changed the spelling of his family's surname to 'Gandhi' after marrying the then Indira Priyadarshini Nehru.

Delixus???

[marcushnk]

Anyone know anything about this distro?
What makes it different? what it was built off? etc etc??

Incorrect

[tehanu]

Actually on the contrary. A lot of developing nations, I think in particular in Africa and S. America are (trying) to use agriculture to boost the long-term standard of living in their country. The reason why it doesn't work very well is not because of something inherent in IT over agriculture but because the rich countries (big culprits being US, EU and Japan) have huge farm and fishery subsidies whilst they are willing to outsource IT with abandon (as many unemployed Slashdotters know). However a recent WTO ruling was that a lot of the current subsidy regime is illegal (I think this was an action brought by Brazil against US sugar subsidies) so we may finally see some action. Also the EU is starting to recognise that its fishery subsidies are helping to destroy European fish stocks.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[acceber]

Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?...Linux with its low cost, high security and open standards is rapidly becoming the driving force behind this revolution.

Although living standards have dramatically improved for all Indians, it is still widely considered to be a third world country.

Approximately 25% of the Indian population are below the poverty line

The water supply is so polluted that people must buy or boil their water.

The poor are discriminated against in education.

Health care in India? What health care?

If Linux claims to improve the life of the poor in India and proves it, even if it's "just" computers, then it's addressing the very real and continually growing division between the rich and the poor in regards to technology and computer use.

Hell, some people have never seen or heard of what a computer is.

Article is a bit misleading...

[LordSah]

The Delixus website is quite scant on information on eGovernance. See here. It mentions that eGovernance runs on Windows as well as Linux. With that in mind, the article only boils down to the same benefits of Linux mentioned everywhere else. (Whether the specific benefits mentioned are actual or merely popular perceptions is often debated). I could easily see someone writing a similar Windows-version of the article, quoting the merits of Windows and saying "Windows is Helping the Poor Folk in India".

I think the article would've been better spent on what eGovernance really is, and why it benefits poor people. I'd find it more interesting, anyway.

Re:Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I like that. Indians steal your jobs everyday, and you're still telling us to "develop" like the good patronising westerner that you are.

L10n issues

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the major scoring points for Linux in the e-gov scene in India in local language. Indic language support in GNOME/KDE/Mozilla/OpenOffice.org is improving rapidly - sometimes the Open Source developers are there even before M$. For an idea on the l10n scene in India - take a look at this newsletter.

However, one of the major bottlenecks of implementing Linux in rural areas is the power situation. People have tried a number of interesting stuff - solar power, manure power and whatnot - but these things can push up costs astronomically.

Moreover, there is a lack of trained professionals who can handle Linux systems - finding people to handle highly customised LTSP or kiosk based installations can be a real PITA. Support becomes a major headache - as people are not at all familar with troubleshooting through the command line. However, things are slowly improving - some states are introducing Linux courses in the school curriculum as apparent from this post.

Some idea about the Linux scene in India can be guaged from the interviews at this site.

Re:L10n issues

[The Cydonian]

I'm sorry, but I'll have to call bullshit on this.

(As I apparently never tire of pointing this out), but if you compare out-of-the-box Indic implementations in MS Windows XP Prof and Linux, Windows wins hands down. I install a 10 MB dll called Uniscribe, and presto, I can simply type in my mother tongue Telugu (as also Devnagari, Tamil, Kannada, Gujarati and Gurmukhi). Linux, otoh, would obviously need significantly more effort to get it to up-to-speed with Win XP; spent some two hours recently installing a Mandrake 9 distro, and I can say for sure that it isn't a simple matter of, say, installing the right rpm's and stuff... there obviously needs to be work done for it to be installable by Janardhan User.

Now, where Linux really wins hands down is in terms of a) reach of languages (Bengali, Malayalam, Oriya etc won't be covered by MS till Longhorn, I guess), b) customised solutions (say for governmental offices and banks) and, c)potential; for instance, I, as a bored software consultant, could devote my free time in hacking together a solution. Or perhaps, I could devote some time in translating the Gnome UI into my mother tongue [Don't look at me; haven't done it as yet :-) ]

Off-the-CD installation, however, I must sadly state that Win XP is ahead, perhaps slightly, of Linux. Which is one reason why the AP government's recommended Telugu word processor, for instance, runs only on Windows.

Re:L10n issues

[unmadindu]

Guess what - WinXP SP2 will be providing support for Bengali (and IIRC - Malayalam).
Wrt out of the box Indic support - you won't even have to install a 10 MB dll file - get a uptodate distro like FC2 or MDK 9.2/10 - and things should work out of the box. With WinXP - you need to enable ctl support - and then you get only support for a few languages. With KDE 3.2 (or GNOME 2.6) - you get support for Indic languages without any kind of extra voodoo magic.
And as far as localised interface is concerned - in GNOME 2.6 you get support for Hindi, Bengali, Malayalam, Marathi, Punjabi - and with KDE 3.2 - you get a similar number of supported languages. With WinXP - you just have l10nised interface for only Hindi (and that too - partial - no translation for Messenger/parts of the Cpanel etc).
The OP is right in pointing out that in some cases - the FOSS community is there before Microsoft. Example - Bengali - we had reasonably good fonts for Bengali since late 2002 - Microsoft has not released a single font yet.

Re:L10n issues

[The Cydonian]

Ah yes, thanks for the update on SP2 and FC2 etc. That was useful; think I'd look it up soon.

Yup, definitely

[arvindn]

The IT boom has definitely helped all sections of society. Small companies greatly benefit from pervasive telecommunications, infrastructure that they couldn't have dreamed of a few years ago. Lots of villages (this is second hand info, I've never been to one) have an "internet hub" where farmers, take the help of an operator to learn about modern methods of agriculture, or compare prices in their locality to get the best prices etc.

Re:Yup, definitely

[melgeroth]

Sure it helps, but the question is to what degree. I could also assert that selling my bubble gum for fifty cents less than before has helped the average man pay his taxes, and that would be true. Not having any experience with India I can't speak to disclaim this article, but just because something is 'helpful' doesnt make it necessary, relevant, or worthy of publicity stunts by affiliated news organisations.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Linux, but this kind of article makes the FOSS movement look a little self-righteous.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[nacturation]

You're probably not all that far off. Ultimately, has their standard of living improved through technology? If so, what is the cause? This is the question that should be asked, and see what answer results. Asking "did Linux improve the quality of life?" is extremely biased and reeks of those paid "studies" Microsoft puts out. Scientific method, anyone?

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[mog007]

Well... Linux techs are migrating to India and giving the poor citizen some business. I'd say that's an improvement... right?

Insightful or Funny? I don't care, it's too early.

No. Your outsourced job is.

[AvantLegion]

DEY TOOK ERR JAHBS!

Re:No. Your outsourced job is.

[mandalayx]

you do realize that this is NOT a zero-sum game, right?

Well... it's "free"

[Thaidog]

So it's got to be doing more than windows... or so it would at least seem.

summary ala apples filtering system

[Anonymous Coward]

Politicians, primarily are interested in Linux and open source in general due to the core business value and benefits provided by Linux over and above alternative operating systems.

...Delixus, Inc. recently completed work on the Delixus e-Governance Platform 2004 edition that leverages the strengths of Linux to provide improved services to widows, pensioners and poor farmers in the Indian state of Karnataka. The Delixus e-Governance Platform addresses the needs of millions of rural poor citizens in India who receive widow or pension checks through services provided by local government offices.

...Importantly, the desktop operating system (OS) selected had to support Kannada for the Delixus e-Governance Platform as well as all other business applications.

...Support for open standards enabled Linux to serve an interoperable e-Governance application that is accessible from Linux, Windows and other desktop operating systems.

...Linux provides governments with the freedom to change vendors as needed, the freedom to audit code for spyware and support for open data formats that are accessible to lower income citizens who cannot afford the expense of proprietary software.

...A Web-based interface provides the ability to remotely check on application status from any Internet-connected computer.

...The Delixus e-Governance Platform leverages the strengths of Linux to improve the lives of Indian citizens through more timely access to information and to their pension checks.... Importantly, the decision to put a separate server in each office was cost justified through the use of low cost open-source software.

...Specifically, the PostgreSQL database server, the Apache Web server and the Postfix e-mail server easily integrate with other open-source software, commercial software and one another.

The Delixus e-Governance Platform uses a Web-based user interface to allow applicants to access the e-Governance application from any Internet cafe.... The Web-based interface provides a unified and consistent user interface that can be accessed from any Web browser that supports Kannada, including Linux and legacy Windows desktops.

...Linux provides true business value to governments through lower costs and better information security as well as proven interoperability through adherence to open standards.

The answer is No

[romit_icarus]

Indians have more immediate needs, water and electricity (pani aur bijli), before they can seek the benefits of e-governance.

That's the reason why Chandrababu Naidu, a sophisticated and technology-aggressive politician, got the boot.

Good basic governance comes before e-governance.

Re:The answer is No

[stor]

Can people only do one positive thing at a time?

Cheers
Stor

Re:The answer is No

[romit_icarus]

Stor, you have a point, but it's a question of priorities.

If you need to make investments in IT when your constituents arent getting clean water and have no access to electricity, then you'll have a tough time justifying those investments...

Re:The answer is No

[The Cydonian]

No, no, no! :-)

To quote,

Welcome to the grand old world of Indian politics, where nothing matters more than the politics, the alliances you cobble up, the social empowerment you promise all this, of course, is well known, but yet most commentators choose to look for the grand message from the voter.

Always important to remember that most of the e-governance measures (e-seva kendras, payment of taxes etc through website) actually came before the last elections, where Naidu was victorious. Also important to acknowledge the real fact that EVM's are, after all, India's most successful e-governance project after Indian Railways' computerisation.

So, no, I disagree with the notion that these elections were a referendum on e-governance; I humbly submit that e-governance as a policy initiative has mostly proceeded without political interference or electoral oversight. And even if there was, it was in fact in 1999 when it took place, and the electorate voted heavily in favour of reformist (if you will) candidates from all parts of the political spectrum.

Re:The answer is No

[stor]

Romit,

I agree that clean water ought to be higher on the priority scale than Linux migrations =)

Governments don't work that way: they don't do things sequentially. There are departments worth of people handling their own issues, which is obviously a lot more effective than doing things sequentially.

Have you been to India? There are many other serious problems apart from the water and a helluva lot more important than Linux migrations. However why should people who want to do something positive with their IT infrustructure be held up by some sort of "need clean water" dependency? They're unrelated.

I do get your point though.

Cheers
Stor

Re:The answer is No

[romit_icarus]

Stor,

I completely agree with you on your approach. And you're right when you imply that alleviation of poverty can happen on multiple fronts.

I'm of the view that if it's a question of platform, then choosing linux will offer greater benefits to India than MS. However, the benefits are going to take a while to be visible. So, to the question "Is Linux ...", I'd say, "Not yet, but it will in the future...

Cheers

Romit

Re:The answer is No

[romit_icarus]

And i forgot: I was born in India, and stayed here most of my life. Love it and hate it etc etc :)

Re:The answer is No

[stor]

And i forgot: I was born in India, and stayed here most of my life. Love it and hate it etc etc :)

No kidding? Sorry if I offended. =)

I do understand what you mean with the love/hate relationship. It's a challenging place but so unbelievably beautiful in its own unique way.

Cheers
Stor

Re:The answer is No

[stor]

You're completely right that they're unrelated, apart from the trivial detail that money spent on one can't be spent on the other.

There are multiple departments with their own budgets. To some extent they will affect each other but I'd hope there would be multiple positive initiatives running concurrently.

"Fixing the water in India" is a great goal but it's not like the entire country needs to hunker down to fix that one (large) problem.

So how's that water where you live? 8)

Cheers
Stor

Money saved is Money earned

[Gopal.V]

LINUX IS JUST SOFTWARE

FREE SOFTWARE IS A PHILOSOPHY , NOT A PRODUCT

Software is a huge drain on India's forex gains , If India does not buy cart loads of MS licenses from the US (paying out hard earned $$$) , that money can be utilized for better things than buying a new learjet for you know who.

Slowly Free Software is bringing economic equilibrium in the world of software ... and it is not negligible . PERIOD.

That said , India's defence system is starting to use Free Software for the pure safety of not depending on Microsoft (or any other closed source vendor). They are shifting from Solaris to Free Software slowly ..

Independence and Freedom , be they economical or technological is important for any country , be it India , Brazil or China.
This is the promise I see in Free Software

A fascinating look at India's culture.

[index72]

Read the book "Sorcerer's Apprentice" by Tahir Shah, Trashotron.com for a revealing look into India's culture. From this account's viewpoint Linux would be of very little use to a large portion of India's population. It could be used perhaps to support the rail transportation sector though.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[antic]

Visiting India is an eye-opening experience. I was there earlier this year. I've seen poor areas in Vietnam, China, Peru, etc. None of those compared to some of the sights in India where children play in beaches covered in rubbish (I don't mean a few scraps, I mean that the sand is literally under a two foot layer of garbage), frolic in water that is absolutely soup-full of rubbish.

In train stations, it's hard to even move because the number of people is just incredible. Overnight, thousands of people sleep on the floors of stations. It's hard to walk through, stepping amongst and even on bodies.

In Bangalore (known for its IT businesses) the main train station had *one* computer in the ticketing area where travellers could check their seat numbers. You can imagine the line...

Even booking a train ticket 5 days in advance, you come across trains with waiting lists 30-100s over-subscribed. On one occasion, we assumed we were booking with time to spare only to find this sort of situation, and we were forced to fly from Kochi to Mumbai so that we wouldn't miss our flight onwards.

Wages are obscenely low. One could go over there on a measly Western wage, live in luxury and have 10 full-time staff (chefs, drivers, cleaners, etc) and barely notice a dent in their income.

You will walk into a restaurant and be waited on by about 8 people. Service staff nearly always outnumber diners. It comes down to the fact that a billion people *have* to be employed somehow.

By all means, implement systems that speed up processes (because they are ridiculously slow in India) but don't remove any potential to employ more people. And I think that a wonder-system based on Linux could have limited appeal in a country that absolutely *lives* on taking forever to accomplish simple tasks. They're smart people, but FFS Indians have ludicrously difficult processes.

I'm not shitting you that I say that in a train station, you need to get a ticket booking request form, not to book a ticket (that'd be too obvious), but just to request a ticket booking form. Desks, queues, forms, meticulous, pains-taking handwriting -- that's just India!

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[antic]

Oh, and I should add that the rail department in India has a pretty decent web site that allows you to check departures and routes and find out how many tickets are available (or NOT available usually) on a train, or how far a route is over-subscribed BUT you still come across thousands and thousands of people pushing and shoving in lines at the station. It's an art-form.

The first person that implements booking queues and a means of pushing in within this e-governance... well, they'll probably land a contract over there. ;)

Here is a radical idea

[logicnazi]

Improve the lives of indians by letting them have jobs!!

Yes, this means not discriminating against them because they aren't US citizens. An indian citizen is no less deserving than someone in the USA of a high standard of living. If we are really concerned about the livelihoods of our fellow humans (and not some bizarre ideology where american lives are worth more than indian lives) this means abandoning all these silly 'buy american' campaigns or protesting when IT companies outsource.

Re:Here is a radical idea

[joshmccormack]

I understand your point, and would like to see the lives of the poor around the world improve. But I think one reason people who do care about global proverty might be pro American worker, is they have a voice, and a vote in the working standards of those workers.

Will offshored jobs help the global poor? Or will a select few profit from desperately poor people, and will this destroy a sensitive, local economy?

'Progress' often moves more slowly than we'd like.

Re:Here is a radical idea

[melted]

Nobody is arguing that they're "no less deserving". There are a number of problems with offshoring, however:
1. Companies are somewhat ENCOURAGED to offshore their jobs by the current tax laws. This needs to be fixed. If anyone thinks that India will buy the software products that are a result of this, I suggest you think again. They're still way too poor to afford them. So the trade imbalance becomes evident. Elimination of tax breaks will make sure that some of all the money floating around will benefit this country as well.
2. I think that outsourcing highly skilled jobs is fundamentally wrong, and companies are shooting themselves in the foot by doing this. As they outsource more and more jobs, many of highly skilled Indian programmers/testers/managers may decide to seek opportunities in their homeland. BAM! You've just created a strong competitor for yourself and paid him with your own money. These folks can cut costs 25-30% more, because they don't need a middleman. Compete with that now. You thought your costs were low after you've outsourced everything but the kitchen sink, now these guys come out and start undercutting you by 30%.
3. Outsourcing would indeed be great if the prices for the products followed the reduction in cost. Say, company X outsourced their development to India for half the cost and made its products 30% cheaper. There you go, a real benefit for the consumer. So far I don't see this happening.

Re:Here is a radical idea

[logicnazi]

If you want we can have a long debate about this.

However, regardless of whether buisnesses get rich off of outsourcing or not the effect on the indian workers is pretty clear. Indians working in tech service centers or similar earn perhaps 1/3 of what the US worker would earn vs. salaries in much of india of no more than $1 a day. Sure these aren't exactly equivalent but it is clear indian tech workers are *way* better off than they would be without the jobs.

Re:Here is a radical idea

[logicnazi]

I would point out that you offer no reason to believe that this doesn't help india.

Quite simply indians earn more money if they get outsourced jobs. This gives the country more money to build various social services. Whether or not it is fair it would take a very twisted argument to justify that employing people in a foreign country at a higher wage then they are currently paid (and yes US outsorced jobs are very lucrative compared to other jobs availible there) *doesn't* help.

Re:Here is a radical idea

[logicnazi]

All of your points (except for the tax incentives) argue for my position.

Yes, offsourcing does build up indian companies at the cost of our own, no indians won't use the money to buy US software products. In short outsourcing *builds* their economy (perhaps at the cost of our own but this is another question). However, if indians are really just as deserving as americans why do you care if they gain and we fall...especially as they are far more needy than us so the benefit to them will be far more than the loss to us.

Re:Here is a radical idea

[melted]

>> However, if indians are really just as deserving as americans why do you care
>> if they gain and we fall...

Simple, because we can prevent ourselves from falling. What I was saying is that while outsourcing has a short-term benefit it will cause an unprecedented brain drain from this country (and within the US, too, people will re-train themselves and do something else if programming doesn't pay well). I don't think the economy where everyone just sells things to someone else without any production (material or intellectual) is sustainable. Certainly not if people stop buying into the "dollar is worth something" myth. Trade deficit is a clear indication of that. One day all this scam scheme will just collapse.

Re:Here is a radical idea

[logicnazi]

Perhaps, but why should I care. I am part of the educated technically able group. If the US has a big brain drain and a big percent of our technically competent individuals go to india or whereever then the job market is all the better for me. I simply don't see why I should care whether americans at large are well off or indians at large are well off.

In fact since the US is unlikely to slide into the extreme poverty that india is in now (even if our economy stopped growing and completly stagnated we produce enough to keep americans at a much higer standard of living than the majorities of indians) the world in total is likely to be better off it they win at our expense.

In short I feel the same way about india winning over the US as I do about missouri stealing companies from california.

Re:Here is a radical idea

[rtb61]

Here is an even more radical idea, offshore outsourcing is already starting to fail. Already the most far sighted and clear thinking companies are starting to shift back. The bean counters who brought this to the fore are already starting to pay the price. Lower cost are of no benefit when the destroy the relationship between a company and its customer as a result of poor quality work. Not that the offshore workers are bad, but they lack the same motivation that local workers get when the customer has direct access to them and feel the direct impact of providing poor quality services. There are to many places to hide and shift blame and deny responsibility for any failures. Now matter how cheaply you provide sales or services or support, piss off the customer enough, allow the customer to realise that the long term costs and far out weighing the short term savings and the cheap companies that use cheap offshore outsourcing to provide cheap services have nothing left to sell because they have no customers. The full impact will take a few years to be felt but the quality of service is starting to become of greater importance in the computer age, because the cost of failure is so high to the customer as they become far more reliant on computer technology. I can save five or ten thousand dollars on a technology investment but whats the point when a failure in those services can and does and has cost way way beyond the original saving. (its the old save a cent to spend a dollar). Customers are learning fast or losing money even faster.

No it hasn't

[Anonymous Coward]

I think a more pertinent question is "have the computers made any difference to India's poor" and guess the answer again would be no. However, it is hoped they will make some difference say 10-15 yrs down the line.

Linux won't make an impact on India's poor for a long time after comps have. The main reason is that there is hardly anyone who buys software in India. I don't know ANYONE who ever bought an XP cd, and I am not a loner. :)

Another point is that for the poor uninitiated people, linux in its present avataar is not an OS to be used. Believe me, at least in India, linux is very much of a geek's OS. People who know linux are mostly university graduates who actually can afford even windows ( if they ever bought it that is).

So for me, I would say, it is going to be a long time before we can even think that linux will be helpful for poor.

missing the point

[Firehawk]

I think the parent post was referring to the level of software piracy rampant in Indonesia...

but are they Luddites?

[not_a_product_id]

I'm not so sure it's a 'luddite' attitude. I think people who can barely get enough to eat are pissed off at the government support for IT where most of the employees lead very good lives compared to the rest of the population. I'm not saying that they're right (I think IT will be an important factor in makeing everyone in india better off) but you can see where the rural poor are coming from.

Re:but are they Luddites?

[not_a_product_id]

This was supposed to be a reply to the parent. It's just too early in the morning for me

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[freedom_india]

A clarification regarding third world: Third world does NOT mean poor. The term was coined to mention the non-aligned nations during the cold war which neither allied with US nor with USSR.

The membership was primarily of countries like Ghana, Sudan, etc., which are very poor. Hence the term third-world came to mean as poor. Calling India as third-world(poor) country is like calling Germany a rascist country.

Maybe true.. maybe not.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[freedom_india]

you need to get a ticket booking request form, not to book a ticket (that'd be too obvious), but just to request a ticket booking form

That is wrong.

As you would say: somebody gypped you...
As for the rest of the commentary: i would agree with you. We somehow manage by -:))

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[antic]

I beg to differ and would suggest that maybe the process is different in various stations.

There was definitely a process of filling out a form at one desk to get a booking form at another desk to then actually pay for tickets. I think it was in Mumbai and locals and foreigners alike were following the process.

We would have had no idea what we were doing had an employee of the rail company not helped us (no expectation of a tip either -- a stark contrast to everywhere else in India).

Re:Linux isn't increasing the life of the poor

[verittaas]

But you can be assured all those American jobs they're getting are.

What is it with you people? Always whining about the offshored jobs the second you get a chance. The article talks about "poor" and not those who are capable of getting an offshored IT job and putting an American into misery!! Purrrrrr!

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[MouseR]

Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

No. I'd say corporate america is. While making the life of local developers miserable.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[RobinH]

Although living standards have dramatically improved for all Indians, it is still widely considered to be a third world country.
-Approximately 25% of the Indian population are below the poverty line
-The water supply is so polluted that people must buy or boil their water.
-The poor are discriminated against in education.
-Health care in India? What health care?

So, when reading this, did anyone else think that with the exception of the water supply issue, these are all applicable to the U.S. as well? Obviously not to the same degree, but still.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[freedom_india]

There's something wrong. iam sure we don't have that kind of fill-a-form-for-a-form stuff.

Maybe that indian railways employee was just showing off the complexity to you.

I usually avoid such hassles and either book it on the web at www.irctc.co.in or ask a travel agent to do it for me for Rs.30/- extra. At rare times when i have enough time to waste, i go to the booking station, fill out a form and then pay money across the counter to get the ticket. It takes time (1-2 hours) in the queue but i spend that time reading a good novel -:))

In the north part of India (above Hyderabad, Bangalore) people generally are more lazier and just love the rules/bueracracy stuff. I had a similar experience in Calcutta when my father had to pay "speed money" to the booking clerk to get a confirmed ticket. Iam sure you wouldn;t have suffered any such issues in South India (Madras/Chennai, Trichy, etc).

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Yet another armchair India expert.

In India, right to education is one of the fundamental rights guaranteed by the Constitution. Education in India is highly subsidised.

Health care in India - do you know that people from UK etc. are coming to India for major surgeries etc. because it is cheap in India? Yes, there is a shortage of doctors per thousand population, but what doctors are present are of the highest calibre, and the hospitals are among the best in the world.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[mr.hawk]

On the other hand. Just the fact that you *can* book a railway ticket in advance, from anywhere to anywhere *and* that there is a waitlist system in place is quite impressive considering the complexity and size of the Indian Railsystem. In India it's at least possible, thanks to computerization.
The rest is just down to India's huge population.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[binand]

Indian Railways computerised its ticketing way back in the 1980's I think. I am not sure which train station in Bangalore you saw, but the main one (Bangalore City Junction) has a huge reservation complex with hundreds of computers. Couple of years back the train ticketing system went online, so now you can book your ticket from the privacy of your home as well. Soon IRCTC is launching a scheme by which you can book your ticket via SMS as well.

You should remember that trains are still the most economic way of getting around in India, and hence given a billion people, some rush is to be expected. Most Indians plan their travel well in advance to book confirmed tickets by train. A train journey from Bangalore to Bombay will take you 24 hours, and with US$ 50, you can buy a nice seat/berth in an air-conditioned coach.

Re:Bullshit

[demonhold]

Well, as my IRS papers will show, I and my girl-friend contribute to several causes... one of them is a small amount of money, I really can't afford more, to educational and health charities in India, since the fucking Indian gvt and their elite classes and middle classes are not doing shit about it. I also try to buy products from companies that deal justly with their suppliers... and well...

So yes, I kinda have a right to speak. Sorry if you've been offended my Indian friend.

India's poor and IT

[opos]

Ten years ago, I taught at the Indian Institute of Technology - Madras, and met Prof. Kalyana Krishnan. At that time Krishnan was struggling with how to render characters on a web page so that he would produce Hindi, Tamil, etc web pages. Over the years, Krishnan's project has expanded, now has voice rendering of web pages and was recently recognized as a major innovation benefiting many in India. His project website will give you an idea of the tools he and his students are bringing to all of India. e-Governance is a small segment of the challenges facing India. Skilled practitioners, coming from the IITs in India are effectively penetrating the digital divide.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[dheltzel]

I'm not shitting you that I say that in a train station, you need to get a ticket booking request form, not to book a ticket (that'd be too obvious), but just to request a ticket booking form. Desks, queues, forms, meticulous, pains-taking handwriting -- that's just India!

Ahh! This explains why Indian nationals are such a good fit for American business processes!
I grate my teeth everytime I have to fill out 2 days worth of paperwork to run a 5 second command (my company is regulated by a 3 letter gov't agency), but for someone who grew up with that sort of process as part of everyday life, it would just seem normal.

I can never complain much about the rules and regulations that stifle the actual work effort, because that would show a bad attitude. Instead I just think about how much it's costing them for me to issue a one line SQL statement (I have to find my entertainment wherever it comes). It's also a big plus for job security, doing the same work with fewer people is not only frowned upon, it could be outright illegal -- so let's not take a chance.

I'm not too concerned about outsourcing. In fact I hope they outsource the paperwork for the sake of accountability. I'll just wait until I get the "official" authorization and type in the 6 words to formally complete the procedure. Last time someone asked for an additional system privilege, it took more than a month to get approved and executed, this poor response time really cuts down on frivilous requests, the requestor has to really want the change to go through the hassle. Maybe that's part of the motivation for the Indian system as well (motto -- more people working, less getting done).

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[4of12]

Poverty in the United States is "at a higher level" in a weird way.

In the U.S., poor people are frequently beset with health problems from being overweight. They eat a poor diet, (they don't buy fresh fish and fresh fruits and vegetables that have shelf life limitations and cost more per calorie): they buy high energy density foods at the corner 7-11 that is the only food store in the `hood.

In rural India (and places like east Africa) you get poverty such that food of any kind is scarce.

But there are something like a billion people worldwide that suffer from the next level problem - diets rich in sugar, obesity, diabetes. It's a growing problem and not just isolated to the United States.

same size middle class as USA

[peter303]

Even though India has huge rural population, its "minority" middle class is comparable in size to that of the USA, because its overall population is so large. So when you are in the suburbs and better off cities, you are going to see a lot that reminds of US life. Ditto for China.

Minimally Invasive Education experiment

[ek-1000-ek]

Also see

Experiments conducted ... have shown that semi-literate poor children can quickly teach themselves the rudiments of computers and Internet.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[Coneasfast]

actually, water pollution is becoming a problem in many parts of the US, in some places people only drink from bottled or filtered water

and again, this is not to the same degree as India, but it exists.

propoganda from Linux

[jeff13]

.. today said it would improve the quality of life in India.

This is the first time I've heard complete bullshit from anyhting Open Source. I guess it's true... Linux has come of age. It's become a marketing fantasy.

I have a question

[bonch]

Slashdot posts silly articles like this one, where Linux is "Improving Life of Poor In India," yet posts articles like the infamous "Microsoft Violates Human Rights In China," based on the fact that Windows is used by the government there which somehow equates to Microsoft oppressing the people.

But the Chinese government has its own custom Linux distribution, and Red Hat removed the Taiwanese flag to sell there. So, why is it Microsoft violates human rights in China while Linux improves the life of the poor in India?

I'll tell you why--propaganda and bias. This place is a caricature of the website it was seven years ago. Just had to say my piece.

Re:I have a question

[Urine1diot]

From the "infamous" article that you're talking about:

'Amnesty believes Microsoft is in violation of a new United Nations Human Rights code for multinationals which says businesses should 'seek to ensure that the goods and services they provide will not be used to abuse human rights'. The article basically states that 'Gate's firm supplied technology used to trap Chinese dissidents'

If anyone is misrepresenting what's being said here, it's you. The story clearly says that Amnesty International was saying that Microsoft was/is violating human rights in China, not Slashdot.

It seems to me that if anyone is promoting propaganda and bias, it's you.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[overunderunderdone]

So, when reading this, did anyone else think that with the exception of the water supply issue, these are all applicable to the U.S. as well? Obviously not to the same degree, but still.

No.

I think the fact that a major health concern about the poor in America is obesity pretty much says everything that needs to be said about it. There is no real comparison between what we call "poverty" and what the rest of the world calls "poverty"

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[RobinH]

There is no real comparison between what we call "poverty" and what the rest of the world calls "poverty"

Go to rural parts of Mississippi some time.

AAAAAAaaargh!

[fiannaFailMan]

I can't believe that people still keep moderating this stuff as 'insightful!' When oh when is the Slashdot crew going to get it into their heads that the western world isn't the only place where a middle class exists? Sheesh!

Re:AAAAAAaaargh!

[md358]

Not until the middle class outnumbers, or at least approaches in size, the poor in the rest of the world. What's your beef with the parent comments? Is recognizing the overwhelming poverty of India somehow racist?

Re:AAAAAAaaargh!

[fiannaFailMan]

No, it's the abounding ignorance of people who think that anyone in a country where the people have dark skin must be living in the middle of a famine. I'm sick of reading this crap on Slashdot and I wish people would get a fucking clue that the developing world also has people who wear suits, drive cars, and work 9 o 5 in an office.

Re:I didn't RTFA, but ...

[fiannaFailMan]

I didn't RTFA

No shit.

How do you explain this then..?

[fiannaFailMan]

From the article:

The Delixus e-Governance Platform addresses the needs of millions of rural poor citizens in India who receive widow or pension checks through services provided by local government offices.

Sure it's not helping the poor? Don't you think the question of Joe Average using linux is a tad irrelevant to the article posted? The article is about software used by the Indian _government_, not the Indian consumer. If the government uses it, the people benefit.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[karnal]

OOO! Fun!! Lemme guess the 3 letters... hmmm... let's see... FDA?

We're having the same heartaches, to a lesser extent. Anything that validated data goes across requires a mountain of paperwork, just in case they decide to audit us to see how the business works.

I would post Anon, but I'm wondering how many other people are affected.

FOSS will help solve many of the world's problems

[mtaff]

For the record, I am a big "L" libertarian, and there are certain problems, IMO, that every person of good heart, regardless of political or moral persuasion, would like to see solved, such as starvation, abject poverty, etc.

We know that capitalism (not to be confused with coporate welfare here in the US) has proven itself to be the best economic system thus far to help achieve those goals.

For those who say "Linux will not solve the world's problems", I disagree wholeheartedly, and submit the following for your contemplation.

In many areas of human endeavor, the most expensive (either time or money) item is labor. Our current models, at least up until FOSS, were largely based on constantly reinventing the wheel. With FOSS, this is no longer required. You make take it as it is, or extend as required for your purposes. You do not need to invest the labor to always start over from scratch.

IMO, there can be no argument that this has been beneficial in the area of software.

Likewise, the FOSS community, made up out of those of us who have some free time to contribute a labor of love to posterity, could easily be extended to other areas.

FOSS is doing a great job in software, but imagine if it were extended to mechanical design? Build upon existing designs rather than starting from scratch.

What if it were extended to music? To art? To textbooks and other educational items? To literature?

FOSS alone will not solve all of the world's problems, but it is one component that will help do so. It could also be the foundation for many other tools to do so.

I submit that 100 years from now, historians will look back on FOSS as the beginning of a revolution, equal to mercantilism or the industrial revolution.

Mark

Re:Linux in Government

[bfg9000]

Hey, thanks for the "Overrated" mod! I love when the Astroturfers try to shut me up, it means I'm right on the money. Thanks for the feedback.

XOXO,
BFG9000

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[overunderunderdone]

Go to rural parts of Mississippi some time.

Are you agreeing with me? Picking the very poorest geographic portion of the USA as your point of comparison pretty much makes my point. Rural mississippi, and a few other isolated pockets of extreme poverty DO get pretty close to third world standards - but then again rural mississippi is remarkable for it's poverty, it is NOT the USA as a whole but the very bottom end of it. Even at that we are leaving off with our very worst case right where much of the world is just getting started. Rural mississippi at it's absolute worst looks like the third world *on average* - NOT particularly poor. Plop it down in the middle of any third world nation and it would at worst fit right in, in most cases it would be hailed as an economic miracle. Compare it to a similarly benighted economic backwater in India (or any third-world nation) and there is simply no comparison.

If that distended belly is caused by beer rather than by Kwashiorkor you are doing OK by third world standards.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[RobinH]

Plop it down in the middle of any third world nation and it would at worst fit right in, in most cases it would be hailed as an economic miracle.

I'm not sure of that. Many Americans consider Mexico to be a 3rd world nation, but these people we're talking about would probably be better off in Saltillo or Monterrey.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[dheltzel]

Yup, it's like we're working for the FDA. Any arcane rules they want to make up become our marching orders.

Sometimes I'm not sure how long I can take working in this industry, but it was sure nice to feel no effects of the last recession on my job. My frustration is more or less cancelled out by my paycheck. It might not be a moral victory, but it pays the bills. Plus, no one complains that I post on Slashdot.

Bring on the patents

[jago25_98]

A guy on a skateboard with one arm went by me in India.

Decided not to offer him a copy of Knoppix.

Re:Linux?

[jtev]

Um, I belive the point Linux is helping with a properly funcitoning infrastricture.

Re:Bullshit

[jack_csk]

I would say the same thing regarding certain Chinese charity organizations.

I was disappointed to find out that they use the donations for the funding investments instead of feeding the poors, yet they give a bullshit excuse of investing more for poors. I mean, who needs the investment if the poor dies earlier than the fucking investment benefits them?

Of course, I still believe that these organizations are the minorities.

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[overunderunderdone]

Mexico is not a particularly poor country, by third world standards it's a model of economic growth. Moneterrey and Saltillo are both centers of economic activity. Still plop down rural mississippi in Mexico and they might not be centers of economic activity like Saltillo or Monterrey but they wouldn't stick out as being particularly poor (if those receiving it keep getting US welfare they'll be quite wealthy). As I said - worst case they fit right in. Plop them down in Oaxaca and they'll be an island of fabulous wealth.

I can't help but wonder

[Audacious]

I continue to read about how Linux is doing nice things for people outside of the US and I am truly very glad for them.

But I can't help but wonder: What about the American Indians? Or people living in some of the southern states of America who are doing very poorly. Eskimos maybe? Not to mention those who are coming into the US like the Vietnamese, Chinese, and Hispanic people who can not read or write English in our own country. Is Linux helping those people out? Or are they just out there. Using whatever software they can afford? (Like old versions of DOS, Windows v3.1 and the like because no one has told them about or shown them how to use Linux/BSD?)

It seems to me that maybe some effort should be put towards growing the grass roots of the Linux community within the US as well as without. (Not that it isn't happening, but that it seems to be a non-issue or on a back burner.)

And this is not to say we do not do this at all. It is just that lately I'm reading a lot about what is going on in other countries but not so much about whether or not Linux is making it into the backroads, small towns, and villages within the US. Instead, we hear about these gigantic corporations battling over whether people should be plugged into outlet A(Windows) or outlet B(Linux) or C(BSD) or D(MacOS) and what the voltage should be (ie: Java, .NET, or whatever).

Just a thought or two. :-)

Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[antic]

I mentioned that online ticketing is available (in my follow-up at least) and while it's a bit ugly, it works very well. All I'm saying is that there are absolutely millions of people in India that computers are not going to help. Those are the people sleeping on the floors of the station because they have nowhere else to go. I'm sure Bangladesh is worse, but China, Vietnam and Cambodia are heaven compared to India for the poor.

We only visited a couple of beaches, and not to swim or anything, only in our wanderings. One was in Kochi (dirty) and the other was a slum in Mumbai (I have never seen so much rubbish in my life) that we accidentally wandered into and thought -- what the hell, as long as no one kills us, we'll walk around and experience the "plight".

I'm not saying don't go there -- it's interesting and the food is great -- but be prepared for it. We slept in Mumbai airport (hello mosquitos!) and met a British couple on their first time away from home, visiting India -- they were shocked beyond belief and it was quite hilarious. It was a bit eye-opening for me even though I've seen a lot of China and elsewhere in Asia, a couple of countries in South America, etc.

We visited Bangalore where we stayed with a guy I met on the net who's just opened a restaurant, Kochi, Alleppey and then went on to Sri Lanka (fantastic beach at Mirissa!) which was a little cleaner and less crowded.

[OT] Re:Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?

[MouseR]

No, you fool, we aren't helping. Wake up and actually look at the world you live on.

Get a clue stick and hit yourself with it. Hard. You totally missed the point.

Re:Linux?

[ATAMAH]

1) I am telling THEM to "develop"
2) Since when are new zealand residents called "westerners" ?
3) Patronising? well... maybe :)