Slashdot Mirror
Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India?
mood6 writes "Linux Journal has a nice article on Automating Government with e-Governance. It discusses Linux usage by the Indian government to improve the lives of the rural poor (interesting look at how the IT boom in India is benefiting the poor). The article covers some of the difficulties in deploying Linux in non-English languages for government usage. Good read for those looking at Linux in e-Governance projects and a good follow up to a previous article by Tom Adelstein. In support of full disclosure: I wrote the article and the platform was developed by Delixus, my current company."
Gandhi was swept into office, until she declined it, by the poor who felt left out of the economic boom. One of these observations disagrees with the other.
If linux has been helping the poor, it wasn't very much in their eyes.
Although Ghandi has refused the position, I heard that one of the main reasons the previous prime minister of India was so unpredictably ousted was because the rural constituents felt marginalized by his focus on developing high-tech industry while regular industries and agriculture were suffering. I think there's a luddite streak running through the Indian poor that was previously unnoticed.
Too busy staying alive... ~ R.A.
On a recent trip to India, I could not help but notice that not a single computer I encountered was running Linux, despite all the hype (and I saw hundreds of computers). They were all running pirated copies of Windows 95 and 98. When you have the ability to pirate software (without any real fear of prosecution), there's one less incentive to switch to free (as in $0, not as in freedom) software. Usability isn't a real concern to those at the lowest socioeconomic levels; what matters is the mere existence of computer technology.
... and developing countries Linux offers a viable alternative to commercial software (Read Microsoft). Linux offers a wonderful opportunity to provide services in many cash strapped communities and is really helping to bridge the "digital divide".
The company I work for has recently started a program of donating old PCs to schools in various parts of our country. Of course the schools (Who can't afford to buy hardware) can't afford the licensing fees on commercial software, so Linux (And many other open source products) is filling the gap and providing working systems for teaching and learning.
Free Firefox news reader.
The outcomes of the latest election were interpreted by the political experts as an outright rejection of the notion that the country's newly-found strength in IT had benefitted the rural poor. In the light of this, it would seem unlikely that any one technology (not just Linux) would have had a noticeable improvement in their lives. Then again, perception and reality can sometimes be two completely opposite things, so one can never be sure of that either.
He holds an MBA in Information Technology and a BA in Economics and frequently speaks on the topics of Linux and offshore outsourcing.
;)"
:D
and here is the root of the problem... Economists always seek commoditization and Linux is a very difficult product to commoditize. The very breadth of Linux, and cornucopia of environments\applications that the term refers to makes it a very difficult thing to quantify.
Also, note that the trend of outsourcing is pretty much technology independent, and recognizes that the people are the expensive part of the equation.
In short, I guess the answer is "Well, maybe, but that's not Linux's fault...
and I can't wait to see how the slashbots reconcile an outsourcing expert talking up Linux
...but only because the only way things can go for the poor of India is up. When you're poor and live in a 3rd world country it basically doesn't take much to make your life a little better. (note: this does not mean good). Free software means reduced administration costs for any organisation/government trying to help these people.
All other things being equal:
Poor + something good for free = still poor but a little better off.
The Indian "IT boom" is at least partly the result of outsourcing and paying coders a hell of a lot less money than they should be earning given the effort they're putting in. Thing is if you're scratching in the dirt trying to find a feed, you just aren't in a position to turn work down no matter how bad. So yeah their life is improved from poverty to slavery. They won't starve but they sure as hell aren't free to prosper.
Just so I'm clear I'm in favour of the use of free (as in beer) software in a poor country, just not in favour of outsourcing (which is what I attribute India's IT boom to).
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
That sounds great, but how is Delixus not trying to place themself in a similar position to Microsoft? Delixus is still trying to make a profit even if the OS is free. They claim Linux provides the ability to change vendors ... sure so does Microsoft. But everyone knows once any organization choses a software system (*cough* Delixus' e-Governance *cough*), they rarely change. This is not a Linux thing, it's a business thing.
Again, this is great, but the article says near the top how pension offices were so far away from villages. Are internet cafes closer to villages than pension offices? Uhh...
I'm not trolling.. I'm not a troll (look at my history to see that) but seriously..
:D
LINUX IS JUST SOFTWARE.
It will not:
1.) Feed the hungry.
2.) Bring world peace.
3.) Become a viable renewable power source.
It's just free software.. and that's a good thing..
Simon.
how is some piece of software going to improve your life if you're poor. It can improve your life if you're rich though
did you forget to take your meds?
I'm sure India has better condition than other developing country in this world. For example, in my country, Linux (or OSS) grow is not really significant. People can have a copy of WindowsXP for just Rp. 5000,-- which is equal to 0,5 USD. btw, I'm in Indonesia :-)
-- V not F.
What good is free Software without the Hardware to go with it? Or the Internet access to seriously get to use it?
Btw, in any case you rarely find a bought copy of windows in those parts...
- 1337poll.tk - check it out!
Ok how are slshdotters supposed to know what's right for India? Frankly I dont give a damn about what slashdot thinks is right for India. We Indians know what's right for India. All the posts about "give them food & medicine first" that's all stupidness.
I'm going to go offtopic here, cause it's somewhat relevant plus I need to rant:
And all the faux intellectuals you see on TV, half of whom have never stepped on Indian soil, make me laugh as they try to analyze the Ghandi win. All this sudden chatter of the "negelcted poor" etc. this is all BS speech. The media's TV analysts have absolutely no clue how and why the poor in India votes.
The media has twisted Congress party to look to the outside world like they are anti market economy when in fact the opposite is true. Anyone who sees the election outcome in India as a leftward shift away from economic reforms has no clue what their talking about.
This win for congress has NOTHING to do with economics. The reforms were initiated in full force by Congress party. Everyone knows this.
India's economic reforms are on track and will remain so.
Actually on the contrary. A lot of developing nations, I think in particular in Africa and S. America are (trying) to use agriculture to boost the long-term standard of living in their country. The reason why it doesn't work very well is not because of something inherent in IT over agriculture but because the rich countries (big culprits being US, EU and Japan) have huge farm and fishery subsidies whilst they are willing to outsource IT with abandon (as many unemployed Slashdotters know). However a recent WTO ruling was that a lot of the current subsidy regime is illegal (I think this was an action brought by Brazil against US sugar subsidies) so we may finally see some action. Also the EU is starting to recognise that its fishery subsidies are helping to destroy European fish stocks.
Approximately 25% of the Indian population are below the poverty line
The water supply is so polluted that people must buy or boil their water.
The poor are discriminated against in education.
Health care in India? What health care?
If Linux claims to improve the life of the poor in India and proves it, even if it's "just" computers, then it's addressing the very real and continually growing division between the rich and the poor in regards to technology and computer use.
Hell, some people have never seen or heard of what a computer is.
The Delixus website is quite scant on information on eGovernance. See here. It mentions that eGovernance runs on Windows as well as Linux. With that in mind, the article only boils down to the same benefits of Linux mentioned everywhere else. (Whether the specific benefits mentioned are actual or merely popular perceptions is often debated). I could easily see someone writing a similar Windows-version of the article, quoting the merits of Windows and saying "Windows is Helping the Poor Folk in India".
I think the article would've been better spent on what eGovernance really is, and why it benefits poor people. I'd find it more interesting, anyway.
One of the major scoring points for Linux in the e-gov scene in India in local language. Indic language support in GNOME/KDE/Mozilla/OpenOffice.org is improving rapidly - sometimes the Open Source developers are there even before M$. For an idea on the l10n scene in India - take a look at this newsletter.
However, one of the major bottlenecks of implementing Linux in rural areas is the power situation. People have tried a number of interesting stuff - solar power, manure power and whatnot - but these things can push up costs astronomically.
Moreover, there is a lack of trained professionals who can handle Linux systems - finding people to handle highly customised LTSP or kiosk based installations can be a real PITA. Support becomes a major headache - as people are not at all familar with troubleshooting through the command line. However, things are slowly improving - some states are introducing Linux courses in the school curriculum as apparent from this post.
Some idea about the Linux scene in India can be guaged from the interviews at this site.
The IT boom has definitely helped all sections of society. Small companies greatly benefit from pervasive telecommunications, infrastructure that they couldn't have dreamed of a few years ago. Lots of villages (this is second hand info, I've never been to one) have an "internet hub" where farmers, take the help of an operator to learn about modern methods of agriculture, or compare prices in their locality to get the best prices etc.
I did actually (go subscribers). I came away thinking that it was really talking about eGovernance, and how Linux was condusive to making it work. Everything mentioned could've been implemented on top of Windows (and since the Delixus website says eGovernance runs on Windows as well, I assume it has). I think it should've been "Is Technology Improving Life of Poor in India?", because it wasn't unique to Linux.
He actually has a point. I don't remember which other south-east asian country it was (thailand?) that had an 8% GBP increase mostly due to tech investments... guess what happened on the next election? The residing party that worked hard for that increase was kicked out harshly because it completely neglected poor anywhere in the country (both rural and non-rural).
Makes you wonder how the Indian elections were so surprisingly won by Mrs. Ghandi (who in fact was born a catholic Italian)... surprise? not really, should have seen that one coming!
You're probably not all that far off. Ultimately, has their standard of living improved through technology? If so, what is the cause? This is the question that should be asked, and see what answer results. Asking "did Linux improve the quality of life?" is extremely biased and reeks of those paid "studies" Microsoft puts out. Scientific method, anyone?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Not a lot of people in India speak French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc etc.
Dont worry, the new eastern european EU member have ample supply of cheap workers than are fluent in german, french and other languages. Spanish and Italian may not be required as these countries already have their own underpaid workers in the poorer parts of the country.
Dont worry, the new eastern european EU member have ample supply of cheap workers than are fluent in german, french and other languages.
Not really accurate - these countries have an ample supply of relatively cheaper workers, some of whom are fluent in German, but relatively less in French or even English. In the short term, we're more likely to see them applying for jobs in western europe (where, btw, they still need a work permit) rather than have the jobs go to them. And for every job "lost" by a western european to an eastern european, a matching job will be destroyed in eastern europe to the profit of companies in western europe (like how are small family run dairy farms in poland going to compete with french or italian industrial dairies?) Finally, this gap will fill in much faster than the US/Indian gap will - look at how fast eastern germany was assimilated after reunification.
Spanish and Italian may not be required as these countries already have their own underpaid workers in the poorer parts of the country.
I haven't heard about the hordes of cheap programmers in spain and italy - heck, i know people working in IT in spain who make good money and enjoy a good life. Average income in southern europe has been lower than in northern europe for a long time, and yet the jobs (at least the IT jobs we're talking about) haven't moved south to date - why expect this to change?
#!/usr/bin/english
That's the reason why Chandrababu Naidu, a sophisticated and technology-aggressive politician, got the boot.
Good basic governance comes before e-governance.
FREE SOFTWARE IS A PHILOSOPHY , NOT A PRODUCT
Software is a huge drain on India's forex gains , If India does not buy cart loads of MS licenses from the US (paying out hard earned $$$) , that money can be utilized for better things than buying a new learjet for you know who.
Slowly Free Software is bringing economic equilibrium in the world of software ... and
it is not negligible . PERIOD.
That said , India's defence system is starting to use Free Software for the pure safety of not depending on Microsoft (or any other closed source vendor). They are shifting from Solaris to Free Software slowly ..
Independence and Freedom , be they economical or technological is important for any country , be it India , Brazil or China.
This is the promise I see in Free Software
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Read the book "Sorcerer's Apprentice" by Tahir Shah, Trashotron.com for a revealing look into India's culture. From this account's viewpoint Linux would be of very little use to a large portion of India's population. It could be used perhaps to support the rail transportation sector though.
Visiting India is an eye-opening experience. I was there earlier this year. I've seen poor areas in Vietnam, China, Peru, etc. None of those compared to some of the sights in India where children play in beaches covered in rubbish (I don't mean a few scraps, I mean that the sand is literally under a two foot layer of garbage), frolic in water that is absolutely soup-full of rubbish.
In train stations, it's hard to even move because the number of people is just incredible. Overnight, thousands of people sleep on the floors of stations. It's hard to walk through, stepping amongst and even on bodies.
In Bangalore (known for its IT businesses) the main train station had *one* computer in the ticketing area where travellers could check their seat numbers. You can imagine the line...
Even booking a train ticket 5 days in advance, you come across trains with waiting lists 30-100s over-subscribed. On one occasion, we assumed we were booking with time to spare only to find this sort of situation, and we were forced to fly from Kochi to Mumbai so that we wouldn't miss our flight onwards.
Wages are obscenely low. One could go over there on a measly Western wage, live in luxury and have 10 full-time staff (chefs, drivers, cleaners, etc) and barely notice a dent in their income.
You will walk into a restaurant and be waited on by about 8 people. Service staff nearly always outnumber diners. It comes down to the fact that a billion people *have* to be employed somehow.
By all means, implement systems that speed up processes (because they are ridiculously slow in India) but don't remove any potential to employ more people. And I think that a wonder-system based on Linux could have limited appeal in a country that absolutely *lives* on taking forever to accomplish simple tasks. They're smart people, but FFS Indians have ludicrously difficult processes.
I'm not shitting you that I say that in a train station, you need to get a ticket booking request form, not to book a ticket (that'd be too obvious), but just to request a ticket booking form. Desks, queues, forms, meticulous, pains-taking handwriting -- that's just India!
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
Oh, and I should add that the rail department in India has a pretty decent web site that allows you to check departures and routes and find out how many tickets are available (or NOT available usually) on a train, or how far a route is over-subscribed BUT you still come across thousands and thousands of people pushing and shoving in lines at the station. It's an art-form.
;)
The first person that implements booking queues and a means of pushing in within this e-governance... well, they'll probably land a contract over there.
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
I think it should've been "Is Technology Improving Life of Poor in India?", because it wasn't unique to Linux.
Then your logic is failed. The correct answer are:
Is Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India? Yes
Is uniquely Linux Improving Life Of Poor In India? No
Improve the lives of indians by letting them have jobs!!
Yes, this means not discriminating against them because they aren't US citizens. An indian citizen is no less deserving than someone in the USA of a high standard of living. If we are really concerned about the livelihoods of our fellow humans (and not some bizarre ideology where american lives are worth more than indian lives) this means abandoning all these silly 'buy american' campaigns or protesting when IT companies outsource.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
I think a more pertinent question is "have the computers made any difference to India's poor" and guess the answer again would be no. However, it is hoped they will make some difference say 10-15 yrs down the line.
:)
Linux won't make an impact on India's poor for a long time after comps have. The main reason is that there is hardly anyone who buys software in India. I don't know ANYONE who ever bought an XP cd, and I am not a loner.
Another point is that for the poor uninitiated people, linux in its present avataar is not an OS to be used. Believe me, at least in India, linux is very much of a geek's OS. People who know linux are mostly university graduates who actually can afford even windows ( if they ever bought it that is).
So for me, I would say, it is going to be a long time before we can even think that linux will be helpful for poor.
The membership was primarily of countries like Ghana, Sudan, etc., which are very poor. Hence the term third-world came to mean as poor. Calling India as third-world(poor) country is like calling Germany a rascist country.
Maybe true.. maybe not.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Although living standards have dramatically improved for all Indians, it is still widely considered to be a third world country.
-Approximately 25% of the Indian population are below the poverty line
-The water supply is so polluted that people must buy or boil their water.
-The poor are discriminated against in education.
-Health care in India? What health care?
So, when reading this, did anyone else think that with the exception of the water supply issue, these are all applicable to the U.S. as well? Obviously not to the same degree, but still.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Maybe that indian railways employee was just showing off the complexity to you.
I usually avoid such hassles and either book it on the web at www.irctc.co.in or ask a travel agent to do it for me for Rs.30/- extra. At rare times when i have enough time to waste, i go to the booking station, fill out a form and then pay money across the counter to get the ticket. It takes time (1-2 hours) in the queue but i spend that time reading a good novel -:))
In the north part of India (above Hyderabad, Bangalore) people generally are more lazier and just love the rules/bueracracy stuff. I had a similar experience in Calcutta when my father had to pay "speed money" to the booking clerk to get a confirmed ticket. Iam sure you wouldn;t have suffered any such issues in South India (Madras/Chennai, Trichy, etc).
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Indian Railways computerised its ticketing way back in the 1980's I think. I am not sure which train station in Bangalore you saw, but the main one (Bangalore City Junction) has a huge reservation complex with hundreds of computers. Couple of years back the train ticketing system went online, so now you can book your ticket from the privacy of your home as well. Soon IRCTC is launching a scheme by which you can book your ticket via SMS as well.
You should remember that trains are still the most economic way of getting around in India, and hence given a billion people, some rush is to be expected. Most Indians plan their travel well in advance to book confirmed tickets by train. A train journey from Bangalore to Bombay will take you 24 hours, and with US$ 50, you can buy a nice seat/berth in an air-conditioned coach.
Ten years ago, I taught at the Indian Institute of Technology - Madras, and met Prof. Kalyana Krishnan. At that time Krishnan was struggling with how to render characters on a web page so that he would produce Hindi, Tamil, etc web pages. Over the years, Krishnan's project has expanded, now has voice rendering of web pages and was recently recognized as a major innovation benefiting many in India. His project website will give you an idea of the tools he and his students are bringing to all of India. e-Governance is a small segment of the challenges facing India. Skilled practitioners, coming from the IITs in India are effectively penetrating the digital divide.
My emplorer is a large software firm based in Germany. There is an official policy from top management: 0 new hiring in the US or Germany as these are two of the more expensive (per developer) development centers (Tokyo is #1, but that is mostly localization). New hiring seems to be concentrated in Bangalore.
Experiments conducted ... have shown that semi-literate poor children can quickly teach themselves the rudiments of computers and Internet.
where did my sig go? where's my sig at?
.. today said it would improve the quality of life in India.
This is the first time I've heard complete bullshit from anyhting Open Source. I guess it's true... Linux has come of age. It's become a marketing fantasy.