Slashdot Mirror
Jeremy White And Mad Penguin On CrossOver Office 3
SilentBob4 writes "Today, a review of CrossOver Office 3 (written by Preston St. Pierre) as well as an interview with the founder of CodeWeavers Inc., Jeremy White (written by Adam Doxtater) have been published for mass consumption. It looks like CrossOver Office/Wine has come a long way since the dark ages of Linux science. Congratulations to the developers on both teams on a job well done. The interview with Jeremy is better than any I have seen recently."
I feel less and less the need to run Windows software
Argh! Multi-user support is no longer in the standard version of Crossover Office. I'm tired of people assuming that home users don't run multiple user accounts.
I would argue that an application of this nature, is, in the long term, a bad thing for desktop Linux.. in the same way that OS/2's Win16 support actually served as a detriment to that platform...
I can't even find a google cache of it. This is bad karma. Bad bad karma.
Actually because Wine is LGPL, Codeweavers is forbidden to make proprietary changes to the main codebase (and they supported this change, it used to be a more liberal license). All the really do is package it up, make nice installers, provide support, same as any other "good" company based on FOSS software.
MS Office has been runnable with Wine for years, so your argument kinda goes down the drain.
It's called CrossOver because all the developers are enthusiastic crossdressers.
Yay! Notes 6.5.1 runs wonderfully. That's really the only "Windows" tie-in I have to worry about at work. So with a 2.6.x kernel and CXOffice, I'm pretty much set for all I need to do.
Dont discount the contributions they make back to the project.
With out them, wine would still be years behind.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Yay! Notes 6.5.1 runs wonderfully.
What about Desginer and Domino Administrator 6.x too?
In looking at the list of Gold apps, and those are the only ones that matter since partial functionality sucks, I don't see a single app that I need that isn't already done well enough by Linux. It would be nice if they had fully functional Access compatibility, since one of my customers has subscribed to a service that uses an Access database, and records can only be downloaded in Access format. It really sucks to have to have a dual-boot computer just to convert those records.
Serial Meta Moderator
Access and MS Project are two programs that a lot of business use. Especially companies that do business with the military and big 3 auto manufacturers.
Where I work there needs to be open source software that can work with these files and probubally perfect functionality in wine for them.
More to the effect there needs to be an open source counterpart.
Evolution or ID?
MDBTools can read access database tables:
http://mdbtools.sourceforge.net/
someone post a copy!
I am a former "wine hater" who was never able to get it to do anything useful. It turns out that a large part of making Windows applications work properly in wine is managing the registry and which libraries will be native/non-native for each application.
.DLL and registry knowledge that implies, just to make Windows applications work.
This is Crossover's value-add to wine: it takes care of all of the wine details for you, so that you don't have to be a wine coder with all of the detailed Windows
I have to use MS Office XP for my work in print media and publishing. I also need Photoshop from time to time, though with GIMP 2.0 this need is greatly reduced.
MS Office XP, Internet Explorer, Photoshop, and Windows Media Player all work perfectly under Crossover with Wine. I will never have to use Win4Lin or VMWare again or cope with a full Windows desktop again!
Now that I have seen wine actually work, and work brilliantly, I believe in it to a much greater degree.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Jeremy White (written by Adam Doxtater)
I knew it! I wonder what language Jeremy is written in...
> As in, they can ditch the expensive Windows
> Operating systems and change to Linux while their
> users can still use the applications they already know.
But Office is the most expensive part of the Windows desktop! And so CXOffice doesn't save you that much... If you pay, say, $60 (a year!) for Mandrake (I paid $120), and ~$60 for CXOffice, you're not that far from Windows.
Now OpenOffice is a totally different story... but it doesn't work for me as yet.
Ah, and right, I didn't have to pay for MDK. I chose to.
Server is dying:
For those of you who might not be familiar with what Wine actually is, let me clarify. Even though some of us enjoy a sip of wine every now and then, this is not what we are talking about today. We are referring to a package that allows Windows applications to run on Linux... outside of an emulator. Wine uses an open source Windows API (application programming interface) to allow modified Win32 binaries to run in a UNIX/Linux environment, completely free of Windows. Think of it not as an emulator, but more of a compatibility layer, or translator if you will. The status of the Wine project can be found here.
CodeWeavers is at the head of the pack in Wine development and deservedly so. They produce the most well packaged, capable distributions of Wine available. As Jeremy has stated, development is in the hands of their customer base and supporters. Whatever the customer wants the customer gets, and so it should rightfully be. Mr. White knows his business. You can see which applications are getting all of the attention at the CodeWeavers Top List page, and it's actually pretty interesting to see what apps are getting pushed to the top. Take a look.
Well, enough of the small talk, let's carry on with the interview. Enjoy!
Mad Penguin: First of all, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to sit down with us today to answer a few questions. I guess the first thing I'd like to know is more personal than anything... why Linux? What was the motivational factor(s) behind developing software to run Windows applications on Linux?
Jeremy White: Well, it's a fairly long story. I've always been a geek. I've loved programming on computers since I was 11 and had to sneak into the Radio Shack to do it, and I've also always loved computer games. Early in my career, I grew quite proficient at communications and networking programming. I was working on a project for a customer that had a Solaris system. But, they were across town, and I had to drive over there to work on it, and I couldn't afford a Sun of my own. So, instead, I installed and starting developing against Linux (circa 94 I'd say), and then just migrating the code once it was done.
So that's when I fell in love with Linux, and when we started having at least one Linux box around all the time.
Now fast forward to about 1997. One day, at lunch, I'm talking to a few new hires (young kids) that had never played the original Combat cartridge in an Atari 2600. This struck me as horrible
cultural illiteracy on their part, and so I set off to find an Atari 2600 emulator to correct this horrible flaw in their education. Along the way, I stumbled across the Wine project, and thought that it was the most audacious project I'd seen in a long time. I thought then (as I think now) that if Linux could become a truly Windows compatible operating system, it would allow for an explosion in new computing choices, and I'd get to feel like that kid at Radio Shack again.
Further, in 1996, I had founded CodeWeavers so I could do work I considered meaningful, challenging, and fun, and although we did some fun projects, I was really looking for a mission. Of course, I had a day job (and a young kid), so I couldn't really do much with Wine then. But I kept dreaming, and then one day, it being the 90s and all, I decided to pursue a business built around Wine and helping people port Windows software to Linux. I successfully landed some venture capital, asked a bunch of the Wine developers to come on board, and that's really how we got started on this mission.
MP: I'm interested in learning how quickly CodeWeavers evolved into the full-blown business it is today. How long did it take you to realize that it had become an actual business and would require your undivided attention? What was the one even that made you sit back, take a deep breath, and think “whoa I am in over my head”?
JW: I think I've actually answered that one a bit in the previous question; the truth is that CodeWeavers s
IntechHosting - Free domain, 2GB, PHP, £4.95/$8.95
For those of you who might not be familiar with what Wine actually is, let me clarify. Even though some of us enjoy a sip of wine every now and then, this is not what we are talking about today. We are referring to a package that allows Windows applications to run on Linux... outside of an emulator. Wine uses an open source Windows API (application programming interface) to allow modified Win32 binaries to run in a UNIX/Linux environment, completely free of Windows. Think of it not as an emulator, but more of a compatibility layer, or translator if you will. The status of the Wine project can be found here.
CodeWeavers is at the head of the pack in Wine development and deservedly so. They produce the most well packaged, capable distributions of Wine available. As Jeremy has stated, development is in the hands of their customer base and supporters. Whatever the customer wants the customer gets, and so it should rightfully be. Mr. White knows his business. You can see which applications are getting all of the attention at the CodeWeavers Top List page, and it's actually pretty interesting to see what apps are getting pushed to the top. Take a look.
Well, enough of the small talk, let's carry on with the interview. Enjoy!
Mad Penguin: First of all, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to sit down with us today to answer a few questions. I guess the first thing I'd like to know is more personal than anything... why Linux? What was the motivational factor(s) behind developing software to run Windows applications on Linux?
Jeremy White: Well, it's a fairly long story. I've always been a geek. I've loved programming on computers since I was 11 and had to sneak into the Radio Shack to do it, and I've also always loved computer games. Early in my career, I grew quite proficient at communications and networking programming. I was working on a project for a customer that had a Solaris system. But, they were across town, and I had to drive over there to work on it, and I couldn't afford a Sun of my own. So, instead, I installed and starting developing against Linux (circa 94 I'd say), and then just migrating the code once it was done.
So that's when I fell in love with Linux, and when we started having at least one Linux box around all the time.
Now fast forward to about 1997. One day, at lunch, I'm talking to a few new hires (young kids) that had never played the original Combat cartridge in an Atari 2600. This struck me as horrible
cultural illiteracy on their part, and so I set off to find an Atari 2600 emulator to correct this horrible flaw in their education. Along the way, I stumbled across the Wine project, and thought that it was the most audacious project I'd seen in a long time. I thought then (as I think now) that if Linux could become a truly Windows compatible operating system, it would allow for an explosion in new computing choices, and I'd get to feel like that kid at Radio Shack again.
Further, in 1996, I had founded CodeWeavers so I could do work I considered meaningful, challenging, and fun, and although we did some fun projects, I was really looking for a mission. Of course, I had a day job (and a young kid), so I couldn't really do much with Wine then. But I kept dreaming, and then one day, it being the 90s and all, I decided to pursue a business built around Wine and helping people port Windows software to Linux. I successfully landed some venture capital, asked a bunch of the Wine developers to come on board, and that's really how we got started on this mission.
MP: I'm interested in learning how quickly CodeWeavers evolved into the full-blown business it is today. Ho
I like /.
/. effect).
/. will be the empty story, not-new-news.
The story talk about an interview and somes others things not avalaible (because of
But people don't feel the need to read the interview to comment it and to begin flamewar about wine-not wine, Msoffice standard or not, etc...
Funny (already more than 50 comments)
Well, moderator, I think that the next step of
Simply put a subject and we can troll on it. Today : "WINE" !!! Yeah...
Ploum.net.
can someone explain what transgamming is doing to wine and why they can't backport their changes to the main tree?
cheers
This was my first experience with CrossOver Office of any version, and I was not disappointed. The people at CodeWeavers and at the Wine project really know what they are doing, and combined, produce a very useful program. Easily worth the measly forty bucks they charge for it, CrossOver Office provides an easy way for regular users to easily install and use many Windows products on Linux.
CrossOver Office is an excellent program based on the Wine project. This program optimizes Wine and allows users to easily run Windows programs on a Linux/UNIX environment. CrossOver Office handles many popular Windows programs such as Microsoft Office, but it also allows for the advanced user to attempt installs of programs that are not officially supported by CrossOver Office.
Wine is an Open Source implementation of the Windows API running atop the GNU/Linux environment. There is no emulation involved with this process, allowing the Windows programs to run at regular speeds regardless of the fact that they are not on their native environment. The fact that Wine is not an emulator also means that it is completely legal and not infringing on Microsoft's copyrights. Wine is released under the GNU Lesser General Public License.
When I first received CrossOver Office from Mad Penguin for review, I was thrilled. This was a piece of software that I had heard much about, but never had a chance to experience first hand. A big round of applause to CodeWeavers for getting us the copy to evaluate.
The Install
The install of CrossOver Office was simplistic. Everything went right. I accepted the default configuration options for almost every part of the surprisingly short installation, and it just worked. Kudos to CodeWeavers.
Editors note: For those of you who might be veterans to the CrossOver experience, the installation of the product hasn't changed much over time. To give credit where credit is due, it's hard to improve on perfection. All the end user is responsible for is to tell the installer where to place the program files, after which it gives you a chance to configure it, install Windows packages, etc. I can't find anything to improve upon or refine here. The Loki installer has been used by many and for good reason... -- Adam
L to R: Installing CrossOver, The install/remove software window
Using CrossOver Office
The way CrossOver Office lets you install programs is a bit different than I'm used to. Here, you select the product you wish to install and CrossOver Office either downloads the install files, takes them from cd, or asks you where they are (if the former two fail). On the other hand, I'm used to selecting the install files I want, and continuing from there. This may not sound very different, but there is one key difference, which is why (I believe) CodeWeavers chose to do it this way: With a list of products to install, the regular user knows what products will work and what he/she can install. The other way, users may install unsupported software, and encounter errors. CrossOver Office does, of course, allow advanced users to install unsupported software, but the important part is that they have made the process easy to use without sacrificing usability.
I installed a few simple applications, such as Adobe Acrobat Reader, Internet Explorer, and Windows Media Player, which all downloaded and installed without problems. After that, I decided to move onwards to some larger programs. I installed Office XP, Counter-Strike, and Knight Online. Both Counter-Strike and Knight Online are unsupported programs, but they both worked. Office XP worked too, but that is only to be expected; after all, Microsoft Office is CrossOver Office's flagship.
Using Windows Programs
Programs installed through CrossOver Office were added to the K menu under "Windows Applications" and were easily copied to other locations as I liked. Internet Explorer, while not my browser of choice, was quite snappy and quick to load. There seemed to be no major performance problems with Co
First, CodeWeavers convinced Wine developers to switch from a BSD license to the LGPL.
The result was that a large percentage of Windows software (especially games) could no longer use Wine to port to Linux (due to the need to include code, link to other proprietary code, use static links for performance, and so on).
Thus, the major beneficiary of that first step (besides CodeWeavers) was Microsoft.
Fortunately, some people forsaw the problem, and forked Wine, so a BSD version still exists.
Then, CodeWeavers started pushing Crossover for ActiveX. But ActiveX is one of Microsoft's methods for decommoditizing the Internet. By changing future releases of ActiveX in indocumented ways, Microsoft can block Mozilla and Linux from the websites that use ActiveX (as strategized in Microsoft's Halloween document). Thus, anything that helps encourage the use of ActiveX over the Internet is irresponsible -- unless of course your intention is to help Microsoft (or make money by helping Microsoft).
And now, CodeWeavers is pushing Crossover Office, which allows Linux users to become/stay addicted to Microsoft Office document formats. Yet, with OpenOffice supporting the current MS Office formats, it is unnecessary to run MS Office on Linux. On the other hand, Microsoft will change the MS Office formats in ways that OpenOffice can't handle (for example, Microsoft has already patented their new XML protocols), which means that anyone who continues to use MS Office will miss the opportunity to escape to OpenOffice, and will become locked in again. Thus, it is utterly irresponsible to encourage the use of MS Office on Linux -- unless of course your intention is to help Microsoft.
Therefore, I don't trust CodeWeavers. In my opinion, they are either irresponsible, and happy to make money in ways that hurt Linux, or they are working with Microsoft.
Well, the kids do their homework with it
I run Photoshop with it
I'm (still) trying to run our proprietary network with it
It's the only Notes client on Linux
It got my Quicken off windows
We have an application that uses it to write spreadsheets in genuine MS format
And it's about 50 bucks.
Damn nice software, as Agent Cooper said.
Where I work we use MS Project, Rational Rose and StarTeam, all tied closely together. Up until now myself and some other Linux zealots in the company were forced to use Project and Rational Rose from a Windows 2000 Terminal Server machine which was good enough for us and bad load on the server.
:(
:)
But now MS Project really runs under cxoffice, and that's great, although having a native Linux project planning and managing application would be much better. Alas, MrProject is still not good enough for us.
On the other hand, Rational Rose still doesn't install, and we were never able to make native Linux version if Rose run. Maybe somebody had more luck making the thing work?
BTW, StarTeam runs on Linux natively just perfect, perhaps because it's a java application.
___
On Slashdot, Russians comment on YOU!
> When CodeWeavers convinced the Wine developers to
> switch to LGPL, they also convinced them to assign
> the copyrights to CodeWeavers.
This is totally incorrect. Each and every Wine developper retains full copyright to his work. Thus CodeWeavers is not in a privileged position and must respect the LGPL exactly like all other Wine contributors.
Let me add one important point about cross-over office's support for MS OfficeXP.
Many users (both of Linux and of Windows) feel that it is unethical to give money to MS, but they need to use MS Office because everyone around them is using it. For them, OfficeXP is perfect because it is the last version of Office that can be easily pirated.
So, cross-over office and MS OfficeXP make an excellent pair and extending support to MS Office 2003 would not be of interest to these people.
I guess I'd better post anon.
> > Actually because Wine is LGPL, Codeweavers is forbidden to make proprietary changes
>
> As was already pointed out, Codeweavers was assigned the copyrights, so CodeWeavers _can_
> make proprietary changes.
As was already pointed out, you are incorrect. Please check your facts.
Each and every Wine developer retains the copyright over his work. Thus CodeWeavers is not in a privileged position and must respect the LGPL like all other Wine contributors.
> It has been suggested that CodeWeavers was able to solve the MS Office problem by being
> privy to Microsoft's secret API information, in other words, that Microsoft leaked the
> information because they _wanted_ Linux users running MS Office, but just didn't want to
> give it official sanction.
And I bet you are a fan of conspiracy theories. CodeWeavers has never been privy to any sort of "Microsoft secret API documentation". The reason Microsoft Office works well in CrossOver is that CodeWeavers focused on it, did lots of testing and worked hard to fix all the bugs.
...for just letting my Crossover free upgrade period expire just before this release. We can cut the reviewer some slack for using it to install IE and MSN messenger :) It really does work quite well for those of us who have to review and sometimes co-author works with MS Office people.
I find it much easier to run win apps on a win kit. I realise that this isn't an earth shaking idea. An earlier thead pointed out the problem of dual booting fedora with win2k, I have experenced similar problems myself in the past. I find that window solutions on linux always proves to be temporary at best. Something always changes that breaks the fragile compatability between the two operating systems. Rather than deal with the uncertainty and complexity of putting windows stuff and linux stuff on the same computer, I simply use two computers. As I have mentioned before, I've been down this road before. I use to justify dual boot or wine as a matter of cost. It's not cost effective unless your time is worth nothing. I find it cheaper and easier to maintain a windows and a linux box seperately. Neither system is that expensive if you shop carefully and are resourceful. Many of you may disagree with my opinion now, I understand, but one day you will revisit this issue and realise that I was right after all. Good luck to all.bye.
At first, I thought it was RON Jeremy...
My Unabridged Webster's Dictionary jumps from "nit" to "nitency".
The reviewer complains about not having MSN Messenger-lookalikes: kopete works fine for me, as did gaim last time I checked; and if he wants something to run on crossover, he can try trillian which is supported. I know windows users who switched from the official MSN client to trillian because MSN was too intrusive.
... you can see that he wants msn for webcam use.
I'm about to try out CO thanks to coverage here and the ability to scan through top-modded comments.
To Jeremy: geek power all the way!