Hybrid Fleet Vehicles

howman writes "This article in the Toronto Star tells of a Canadian company called Azure Dynamics Corp. which has a novel approach to cutting fuel costs and harmful emissions in fleet vehicles. The novelty is not so much in their technology but in the fact that they are hitting the fleet vehicle users market. While Azure doesn't manufacture any of the components, it 'works with the companies that make all the parts for Canada Post's trucks or Purolator's vans - the engines, the chassis, and so on - to convert those vehicles into HEVs.' With an existing and potential client list that includes Purolator, Canada Post, the United States Postal Service and Renault and London Taxi International, it may not be long before you see one of their branded vehicles on a street near you."

Comments

aluminium batteries

[lkcl]

only when partenan cells are available will any kind of EV be viable. http://www.europositron.com

Critical Mass

[Gothmolly]

Here in Rhode Island, USA, we have several propane filling stations, however they're all clearly marked "State Vehicles Only". So while its nice to see the State Troopers and trolley buses cruising around on propane, there needs to be more filling stations, and they need to be available to the general public.
These sorts of alternative energy options always require a certain critical mass, or number of cars, or number of users, before they're economically viable. (No comments from the anti-gasoline tinfoil hat crowd, please)

Re:Critical Mass

[Smidge204]

Indeed, targeting fleet vehicles seems like a good way to convince the public that HEV technology is a viable solution. People drive them on the job, and if they have a good experience will see that it's not so bad. Then when it comes time to buy a new car they might consider a HEV of their own.

As for propane, here in NY my company just finished a job converting a school bus garage to be "explosion proof" as they were getting new busses that run off of compressed natural gas. The district is buying 20 busses a year until their entire fleet is replaced with the new CNG busses.

The advantage of HEVs, though, is that they still burn gasoline, and as such the fuel supply infastructure is already widely established. Going with CNG or Propane requires a whole new infastructure.
=Smidge=

Re:Critical Mass

[swordboy]

The problem with propane (or natural gas, for that matter) is two-fold:

1) You are still burning nitrogen, which creates NOx emissions (bad).
2) Nonrenewable

Hydrogen and fuel cells are clearly the future. My vision is that some enterprising inventor will come up with a high-density method for storing hydrogen, at which point high-capacity hydrogen batteries will be possible. As I pointed out yesterday, NiMH batteries are just closed loop hydrogen fuel cells. With a high-density hydrogen storage solution, you could have a battery-powered car which could travel several thousand miles between charges, which would likely consist of swapping out the battery pack.

This would work well with out existing infrastructure. Power plants typically idle down to very inefficient ranges during the night time hours. These plants could simply use the excess electrical capacity at night in order to separate hydrogen from water. This hydrogen could be stored in said high-density storage solution and stored in battery packs. These battery packs could be used in all sorts of stuff from automobiles to houses (making note that the "grid" is where most of our energy is consumed today - it is very inefficient).

Good idea

[JosKarith]

Of course the Stop-Start kind of driving that these vehicles will be doing is perfect for hybrids.

Re:Good idea

[Trigun]

Stop and start? This is in Canada, where it's sixty kilo-meters in between igloos.

Makes Perfect Sense

[laigle]

Fleet vehicles rack up more mileage, so they get a better return on investment with hybrids. Plus they're in a better position to absorb the increased up front costs than consumers. I've seen a lot more switchover to alternative fuel technologies and the like with fleet vehicles than the general public. Hopefully this will provide the needed incentive to get these technologies into commercially viable stages of development.

Hope this sticks

[beachplum]

The rush to develop alternatiives to gas was also pretty big after the gas crunch in the 70s. All that stuff kind of faded away after gas prices came down.

There are so many better alternatives now than there were then. This is one of the best I have seen, so maybe it will actually catch on and have enough longevity as an idea to create a cultural change.

Good idea indeed

[the_twisted_pair]

..And I have to say the hybrid approach probably makes better sense than a 'pure' EV given the scale of American cities.

Here in the UK electric vehicles have long been a feature of the townscape - Doorstep milk deliveries were always carried out by the huge (10,000+ at peak IIRC) fleet of 'milk floats' operated by the major dairies (this service is now in decline, killed by supermarkets). EVs just makes so much sense for such start/stop urban use, and for early in the morning - they're near-silent.

Fortunately, the advantages are recognised - many local councils are experimenting with newer EVs and hybrids for the obvious reasons in town centres. Here in Bristol there is a fair percentage of council-operated natural-gas powered vans, and experimental conversions of diesel city buses.

dual fuel quite possible

[zogger]

There's a variety of dual fuel carbs out there for normal vehicles. Using either gasoline, or gas and/or propane or natural gas. I looked into it before for my van with a chevy 350, normal carb. At the time, several years ago now, the conversion was around 300$ I think.
Here's a Google link for dual fuel, propane
As for finding propane for a fill up, it's not that hard, most yellow pages will direct you to your local outlet for bulk filling. Not near as many as for a normal gas station, but every community in the US probably has some place you get get propane. I've had to find the places a lot, my van and my RV both have propane tanks (just for the camping accessories right now), and I've never had a hard time finding propane. And for that matter, it might not be that hard to have a big bulk tank put in in your back yard, have the truck top it off occassionally, and do your own "fill up" right at home with the appropriate extra gear installed. A nice way to buy when it's cheap and have a good reserve handy.
/me = remembers OPEC boycott and sudden "no gas" very clearly

Re:dual fuel quite possible

[2000 Britneys]

Few years back I had a dual fule Oldsmobile and it was working very very well. The fill up were no problem since most of gas stations in Canada do indeed have propane available at all times. Also it was much much cheaper to run a vehicle on propane.

As for your idea of having your own "bulk" tank in the backyard I don't think it is possible. To fill up a car you need to have a certification at least here in Canada.

For the people that say propane is explosive and might be a danger to the public if you have big "bulk" tanks I had a guy show me how to extinguish
fire with liquid propane. It worked. Apparently propane has much higher ignition point then reg gas
it is a lot safer to use. Plus all the tanks in the vehicles have safety devices that will prevent leaks from the tank unless the tank itself is physically damaged.

Re:The electricity still comes from fossil fuels!

[mrtroy]

I buy my electricity from 'HydroOttawa'. A lot of people think that it is hydro-electricity they are buying, when really, it is more like 15% hydro. 85% or the power really comes from burning fuels.

Show me some evidence that 85% of the power we get in ontario is from fossel fuels. That sounds like some bullshit to me. Especially considering you say 15% hydro (very low for the ammt of hydro we produce) and do not include nuclear power anywhere in your numbers.

Do not make outrageous claims with inaccurate numbers.

Wot! No electric cars!

[seniorcoder]

I would ideally like to buy an electric car. Things were looking good. The major manufacturers were starting to produce them. GM EV1, Ford Ranger, Toyota RAV4 all available electric.
Now where are they? The RAV4 was only available to fleet buyers. Ford has stopped production of the electric Ranger, GM stopped leasing the EV1 and crushed the lot.

Two questions:
1. What happened? 2. I still want an electric car. Any suggestions?

Re:Hmm. Diesel-Electric?

[drinkypoo]

I imagine this company had to do a fair amount of work on the parallel hybrid type where both the engine and electric motor connect to the wheels. My understanding is that, theoretically, series hybrids are more efficient. If true, it confuses me why most hybrids we're seeing these days use the parallel style (or a variation on it) instead.

Trains are in a situation where weight matters much much less than in a car. They can afford the weight difference of having an extra generator in there driven by the diesels. Also, their diesels are much larger, and larger diesels are more efficient. The most efficient internal combusion engine in the world is the size of a small house and runs on diesel fuel. I forget what the application was, though I believe it was on some sort of ship, which makes sense.

Some hybrid vehicles now use a CVT (continuously variable transmission) so they can use the gasoline engine more often, and keep it in its powerband more reliably.

Converting a two wheel drive vehicle to a hybrid is typically relatively trivial; You hook up power to the non-driven wheels. This usually represents only a small engineering challenge. The rest of the problems are fairly well-known today. As I am fond of pointing out, even radio controlled cars do regenerative braking these days, and it does make a significant difference in runtime. It's probably a bigger challenge to try to find someplace to put the batteries :)

Incidentally, they do have semi-trucks with automatic transmissions and they usually don't have many gears. However, they are lossy during acceleration as are all automatic transmissions. They probably do have a lockup torque converter, however, so once they get going they should be approximately as efficient as a manual gearbox.