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Hybrid Fleet Vehicles

Posted by michael on from the save-a-joule-or-two dept.

howman writes "This article in the Toronto Star tells of a Canadian company called Azure Dynamics Corp. which has a novel approach to cutting fuel costs and harmful emissions in fleet vehicles. The novelty is not so much in their technology but in the fact that they are hitting the fleet vehicle users market. While Azure doesn't manufacture any of the components, it 'works with the companies that make all the parts for Canada Post's trucks or Purolator's vans - the engines, the chassis, and so on - to convert those vehicles into HEVs.' With an existing and potential client list that includes Purolator, Canada Post, the United States Postal Service and Renault and London Taxi International, it may not be long before you see one of their branded vehicles on a street near you."

51 of 191 comments (clear)

  1. aluminium batteries by lkcl · · Score: 5, Interesting

    only when partenan cells are available will any kind of EV be viable. http://www.europositron.com

    1. Re:aluminium batteries by Bushcat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I dunno, my milk and mail was delivered reliably every morning by EV decades ago.

    2. Re:aluminium batteries by cstream_chris · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't forget to charge up your batteries for an electric car with that electricity created by coal. Coal accounts for 50%+ of the electricity in the US.

    3. Re:aluminium batteries by toddestan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't forget to charge up your batteries for an electric car with that electricity created by coal. Coal accounts for 50%+ of the electricity in the US.

      Atleast we mine coal locally here in the US, and generally coal power plants are cleaner than gasoline powered cars. But the original point stands, electric vehicles aren't the answer to our dependence on fossil fuels.

  2. Critical Mass by Gothmolly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here in Rhode Island, USA, we have several propane filling stations, however they're all clearly marked "State Vehicles Only". So while its nice to see the State Troopers and trolley buses cruising around on propane, there needs to be more filling stations, and they need to be available to the general public.
    These sorts of alternative energy options always require a certain critical mass, or number of cars, or number of users, before they're economically viable. (No comments from the anti-gasoline tinfoil hat crowd, please)

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:Critical Mass by Smidge204 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Indeed, targeting fleet vehicles seems like a good way to convince the public that HEV technology is a viable solution. People drive them on the job, and if they have a good experience will see that it's not so bad. Then when it comes time to buy a new car they might consider a HEV of their own.

      As for propane, here in NY my company just finished a job converting a school bus garage to be "explosion proof" as they were getting new busses that run off of compressed natural gas. The district is buying 20 busses a year until their entire fleet is replaced with the new CNG busses.

      The advantage of HEVs, though, is that they still burn gasoline, and as such the fuel supply infastructure is already widely established. Going with CNG or Propane requires a whole new infastructure.
      =Smidge=

    2. Re:Critical Mass by AmigaAvenger · · Score: 2, Informative
      As an experienced second-hand user of CNG (parents drove fleet CNG vehicles) I can personally say i would not want CNG anywhere close to my vehicle! The added weight for the tanks is incredible, and the engines average 50000-80000 miles before they have no compression left. (And don't get me started about the bomb qualities, 8 - 6 foot tanks about a foot in diameter, at 2000 psi. KABOOM!)

      Liquid gasoline has some properties that modern engines rely on, lubrication and cooling mainly. it doesn't provide much, but what it does provide makes the difference between 200k+ miles or 50k.

    3. Re:Critical Mass by swordboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The problem with propane (or natural gas, for that matter) is two-fold:

      1) You are still burning nitrogen, which creates NOx emissions (bad).
      2) Nonrenewable

      Hydrogen and fuel cells are clearly the future. My vision is that some enterprising inventor will come up with a high-density method for storing hydrogen, at which point high-capacity hydrogen batteries will be possible. As I pointed out yesterday, NiMH batteries are just closed loop hydrogen fuel cells. With a high-density hydrogen storage solution, you could have a battery-powered car which could travel several thousand miles between charges, which would likely consist of swapping out the battery pack.

      This would work well with out existing infrastructure. Power plants typically idle down to very inefficient ranges during the night time hours. These plants could simply use the excess electrical capacity at night in order to separate hydrogen from water. This hydrogen could be stored in said high-density storage solution and stored in battery packs. These battery packs could be used in all sorts of stuff from automobiles to houses (making note that the "grid" is where most of our energy is consumed today - it is very inefficient).

      --

      Life is the leading cause of death in America.
    4. Re:Critical Mass by green1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I find this interesting, where I live (Canada) I actually have trouble thinking of a gas station that does NOT sell propane... the primary role of these filling stations seems to be for barbeque tanks and for motorhome accessories, however this is also where propane vehicles fill...

      propane conversions were really popular here in the 80's, but demand has lessened signifigantly, propane conversions are expenzive, and your mileage is less, so even with the signifigantly cheaper cost of propane, you never recover from the initial cost of the conversion unless you put on a LOT of miles. There's also the disadvantage that you can't park in any covered parkade (they're worried about a possible leak as propane is heavier than air and will pool in lowlying areas instead of properly dissipating)...

      A large number of taxis still use propane, and some police cars (though they seem to be giving up on it too these days)

      Our transit system experimented with natural gas powered busses for a few years, but they gave up on that one too, apparently it took hours to fill the tanks, and the busses were constantly in for service, those that are still on the road are running off of their gasoline tanks only (they were all dual fuel). about the only vehicles I see on the streets on a regular basis that run on natural gas are those owned by our local natural gas supplier, and even they haven't converted their entire fleet.

      things aren't looking entirely gloomy for alternative fuels though, just today our transit system released a press release saying they're trialing a diesel-electric hybrid bus... we'll see how that goes...

    5. Re:Critical Mass by shreak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hydorgen fuel cells are not a fuel, they are a storage mechanism. Where do you get the Hydrogen to fuel your fuel cell? Probably from a non-renewable hydrocarbon (like propane or butane) or from an energy company that produces your hydrogen compound by using traditional energy sources (electricity from oil or coal).

      Hopefully there will be an efficiency gain due to economies of scale (produce lots of power in one place and distribute it) But don't make the mistake of thinking that by moving around where the petrolium fuel is produced that the problem is gone.

      =Shreak

    6. Re:Critical Mass by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2, Informative
      Umm, if you burn H2, you get H20. Then there is no problem with nitrous-oxides.

      You burn propane combined with air (1 C3H8 + 10 O2) and ideally you get 4 H2O + 3 CO2. Air, however, contains nitrogen, about 70% by volume. N2 in the presence of combustion can oxidise, yielding oxides of nitrogen.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  3. Great idea! by Mz6 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is probably one of the best business idea I have read in a while. They stay away from actually producing the products that will make up the car, but they build the packages to transform the car into a HEV. I think that's just brilliant!

    --
    Hmmm.
  4. Good idea by JosKarith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Of course the Stop-Start kind of driving that these vehicles will be doing is perfect for hybrids.

    --
    'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
    1. Re:Good idea by Trigun · · Score: 5, Funny

      Stop and start? This is in Canada, where it's sixty kilo-meters in between igloos.

  5. only the BIG companies are able to do this... by garcia · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What's more, Azure makes plain that its customers must put their money where their mouth is. Interested parties have to commit up front that they'll place an order before Azure builds a prototype; if Azure achieves what it promises in emission reductions and fuel-cost savings, the customer has to pay for and receive the order.

    "There are lots of tire-kickers, but if we perform, they agree to buy," said Deacon.

    While their potential/interested clients are big ones it seems like a lot to ask in order to get a fleet out there for you.

    Analysts believe Azure will make it. MacMurray is forecasting the company to lift itself out of the red by 2007 -- mainly because demand for hybrid vehicles that rely less on gasoline and don't pollute as much will continue to be strong.

    We'll see. I wish them the best of luck but I doubt that they will be able to create what they say they can every time and with such a "small" possible base of customers.

  6. Makes Perfect Sense by laigle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fleet vehicles rack up more mileage, so they get a better return on investment with hybrids. Plus they're in a better position to absorb the increased up front costs than consumers. I've seen a lot more switchover to alternative fuel technologies and the like with fleet vehicles than the general public. Hopefully this will provide the needed incentive to get these technologies into commercially viable stages of development.

    1. Re:Makes Perfect Sense by The+Fun+Guy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not only do they rack up more miles than the average consumer-driven car, they do a lot of stop-and-go driving. From an efficiency and emissions standpoint, electric cars are great at this sort of thing, much better than gas engine. The intervening longer distance driving to and from the dispatch point, or to delivery neighborhoods is where the gas engines are better (range, cruising efficiency).

      Hybrids seem to be a really good option here.

      --
      The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain
    2. Re:Makes Perfect Sense by Rick.C · · Score: 3, Informative
      The main issue for consumers is that unless they buy the vehicle new and plan on running it until it dies, it's harder to get the Return On Investment (ROI). Fleet operators typically buy 'em new and run 'em into the ground.

      If you buy a new car and plan to trade it in after three years, you can't justify the ROI. Also, any conversion will likely void the warranty, and you may find it difficult to sell a "non-standard" car later.

      If you buy an older used car and convert it, it may not last long enough to give you a decent ROI.

      HEV conversion will likely be popular only for fleets and for die-hard hobbyists. Let's hope that this will eventually work its way into a factory installed (and supported) option on mainstream vehicles.

      --
      You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
      "Math in a song is good."-Linford
    3. Re:Makes Perfect Sense by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      What I want to know is how they compare to turbo diesels. As we have seen VW TDIs get mileage comparable to hybrids in the city and generally superior mileage on the highway. They get good mileage around town because they make peak torque at very low RPMs (about 150@1500, but these are 1.8 liter engines.) The only down side of a turbo is slightly increased maintenance. The down side of a hybrid is added weight from motors and batteries, the need to replace and recycle those batteries and dramatically increased complexity.

      I would think that using turbo diesels would be a better solution for most fleets. I can see how inner city buses and taxis might be a good fit for hybrids, and some delivery vehicles that make frequent stops, but other than that I frankly doubt that they provide a better return than a nice efficient turbo diesel.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  7. Hope this sticks by beachplum · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The rush to develop alternatiives to gas was also pretty big after the gas crunch in the 70s. All that stuff kind of faded away after gas prices came down.

    There are so many better alternatives now than there were then. This is one of the best I have seen, so maybe it will actually catch on and have enough longevity as an idea to create a cultural change.

  8. You can buy one from Toyota. by niclas_b · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.toyota.com/prius/

    1. Re:You can buy one from Toyota. by Salo2112 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Prius won't do what these vehicles are desinged for, although they might make good vehicles for couriers.

      Also, my neighbor is a poohbah at a local Toyota dealership and he tells me there is a two-year waiting list to get one.

    2. Re:You can buy one from Toyota. by ryanwright · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah - that's the other problem. These bastard automakers don't make enough to go around. I've had my eye on either a Prius or a Honda Insight for quite some time. None of the Toyota or Honda dealerships around here has one nor do they have plans to get one. So I can't test drive the car. They'll order one if I buy, but I won't buy a car without a good test drive. And it's the same line: "It could take 6 months to a year to get it in."

      How do you expect people to actually use these vehicles if you can't test drive them and have to jump through hoops and wait a year to buy one? Most car purchases are impulse. If you want people to use these vehicles you need to get them sitting on dealer's lots so we can come by and go, "Ohh, shiny."

      --
      -Ryan, with the unoriginal sig
  9. The electricity still comes from fossil fuels! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This has been said before, so I will keep it short. People see these cars running on electricity with 'no emissions', and assume the car causes little or no pollution. Unfortunately, the electricity that you charge up your car's battery probably comes from fossil fuel combustion. You just might not know it, since the power generation station that burns it is far from urban centers.

    On top of this, energy companies try to mislead their customers into thinking the energy is clean. I live in Ontario. I buy my electricity from 'HydroOttawa'. A lot of people think that it is hydro-electricity they are buying, when really, it is more like 15% hydro. 85% or the power really comes from burning fuels. (Don't tell anyone though; this horrible 'environmentalism' trend is hurting profits at great companies like Enron.

    1. Re:The electricity still comes from fossil fuels! by mrtroy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I buy my electricity from 'HydroOttawa'. A lot of people think that it is hydro-electricity they are buying, when really, it is more like 15% hydro. 85% or the power really comes from burning fuels.

      Show me some evidence that 85% of the power we get in ontario is from fossel fuels. That sounds like some bullshit to me. Especially considering you say 15% hydro (very low for the ammt of hydro we produce) and do not include nuclear power anywhere in your numbers.

      Do not make outrageous claims with inaccurate numbers.

      --
      [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
  10. depends on it's use... by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Fleet vehicles.. if used in town for stop-start-stop then yes this would be a great idea.... but fleet vehicles that are used for open highway?

    your greatest increase in economy is by adding a double overdrive gearbox to it. They sell them as aftermarket add-on's for Motorhomes and they can increase a 33 foot motorhome's gas mileage by 20%.

    The biggest problem with emissions and fuel economy though is NOT the vehicles but the drivers. if the drivers were careful with their driving economy will go up, but it's more cost effective to push your employees harder and force them to drive inefficently and even break the law.

    as for in-town deliveries... I dont understand why a pure-electric vehicle would not be the best choice. they spend more time off then running.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:depends on it's use... by AviLazar · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most modern day trucks have computer sensors in there that prevent the truck drivers from accelerating in certain methods....meaning that no matter how far they push the pedal down, the computer will only let them go so fast and burn so much gas. A lot of the "guess" work is removed from the drivers since there are people who like to abuse the system.

      --

      I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
  11. Good idea indeed by the_twisted_pair · · Score: 5, Informative
    ..And I have to say the hybrid approach probably makes better sense than a 'pure' EV given the scale of American cities.

    Here in the UK electric vehicles have long been a feature of the townscape - Doorstep milk deliveries were always carried out by the huge (10,000+ at peak IIRC) fleet of 'milk floats' operated by the major dairies (this service is now in decline, killed by supermarkets). EVs just makes so much sense for such start/stop urban use, and for early in the morning - they're near-silent.

    Fortunately, the advantages are recognised - many local councils are experimenting with newer EVs and hybrids for the obvious reasons in town centres. Here in Bristol there is a fair percentage of council-operated natural-gas powered vans, and experimental conversions of diesel city buses.

  12. The Civic GX seems pretty good for this by GlassUser · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.asp ?ModelName=Civic%20GX

    I wouldn't mind having one myself. You can get this little appliance called a phill ( http://www.fuelmaker.com/phill/) that will recharge the car's tank at home. It's slow, but convenient - plug it in at home overnight. Or you can charge it fast at a commercial station (there's one five minutes from home, for me). This would be a pretty good commuter car.

    --
    funny munging
  13. dual fuel quite possible by zogger · · Score: 5, Informative

    There's a variety of dual fuel carbs out there for normal vehicles. Using either gasoline, or gas and/or propane or natural gas. I looked into it before for my van with a chevy 350, normal carb. At the time, several years ago now, the conversion was around 300$ I think.
    Here's a Google link for dual fuel, propane
    As for finding propane for a fill up, it's not that hard, most yellow pages will direct you to your local outlet for bulk filling. Not near as many as for a normal gas station, but every community in the US probably has some place you get get propane. I've had to find the places a lot, my van and my RV both have propane tanks (just for the camping accessories right now), and I've never had a hard time finding propane. And for that matter, it might not be that hard to have a big bulk tank put in in your back yard, have the truck top it off occassionally, and do your own "fill up" right at home with the appropriate extra gear installed. A nice way to buy when it's cheap and have a good reserve handy.
    /me = remembers OPEC boycott and sudden "no gas" very clearly

    1. Re:dual fuel quite possible by 2000+Britneys · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Few years back I had a dual fule Oldsmobile and it was working very very well. The fill up were no problem since most of gas stations in Canada do indeed have propane available at all times. Also it was much much cheaper to run a vehicle on propane.

      As for your idea of having your own "bulk" tank in the backyard I don't think it is possible. To fill up a car you need to have a certification at least here in Canada.

      For the people that say propane is explosive and might be a danger to the public if you have big "bulk" tanks I had a guy show me how to extinguish
      fire with liquid propane. It worked. Apparently propane has much higher ignition point then reg gas
      it is a lot safer to use. Plus all the tanks in the vehicles have safety devices that will prevent leaks from the tank unless the tank itself is physically damaged.

  14. Fleet Vehicle by Prince+Vegeta+SSJ4 · · Score: 2, Funny
    They must be using alot of these?

    Vehicle: A substance in which medicine is taken. (Websters)

  15. Re:Emissions by 91degrees · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Perhaps overall, no, but it should have a significant effect in some very localised areas. For example, in central London, virtually all traffic is busses and taxis. Redcuing that will have a significant effect on the air quality near major roads.

  16. Re:Emissions by confused+one · · Score: 2, Informative
    Fleet vehicles, including long-haul trucking, account for approximately 30% of emissions.

    In broadest (and simplest) terms, emissions run as 30%industrial, 30%commercial fleet, 30%private vehicles, 10% other.

  17. Infrastructure by bubba_ry · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I read an article in Discover or Scientifc American (can't remember which!) recently detailing the shift to alternative fuels. Not only is it a challenge to develop applicable technologies that are economical for end users, an even greater challenge will be to develop the infrastructure necessary to support these vehicles. We take for granted that one can stop at a gas station and fill up. If one we're driving a propane-powered vehicle, one would require an appropriate filling station. The answer to this appears to lie in getting large companies to 'buy in' (sorry for the manager speak, lots of meetings this week!) to using alternative fuels and retrofitting their stations for those fuels. When they have taken hold, and enough demand exists, consumer stations can begin to be retrofitted with the necessary equipment to ease consumers into using cars that run on newer fuels.

    It's kinda like how you can still buy VHS!

  18. Not just Canada by GeorgeH · · Score: 2, Informative

    American auto companies are outfitting their fleet customers with alternative fuel vehicles. The government even provides incentives for meeting a certain percentage of alternative fuel vehicles in a fleet. GM's page on the subject has more information, as does Ford's alternative fuel fleet page and Chrysler's.

    --
    Why can't I moderate something "Wrong" or at least "Grossly Misinformed"?
  19. Re:confused by AviLazar · · Score: 3, Funny

    Alright, lets kick out Hawaii...hey wait a minute, thats a place of scantily clad women...lets kick out Alaska and make Canada the 49th state :)

    --

    I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
  20. Wot! No electric cars! by seniorcoder · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I would ideally like to buy an electric car. Things were looking good. The major manufacturers were starting to produce them. GM EV1, Ford Ranger, Toyota RAV4 all available electric.
    Now where are they? The RAV4 was only available to fleet buyers. Ford has stopped production of the electric Ranger, GM stopped leasing the EV1 and crushed the lot.

    Two questions:
    1. What happened? 2. I still want an electric car. Any suggestions?

    1. Re:Wot! No electric cars! by confused+one · · Score: 2, Informative
      They effectively flopped.

      GM eventually admitted it cost them a whole lot more to make an EV1 than they did/could sell them for. GM's pencil pushers couldn't get the price down. The EV1 battery design had some serious range issues and didn't work well if the weather was cold (yes you read that right) which is why they only tried selling them in Nevada and California. They realized they had to go back to the drawing board; and, decided to cut their losses.

      Ford's electric Rangers were also an expensive experiment. It worked as promised but was based on heavy lead-acid batteries (slung under the bed of the truck). Ford has been seriously concerned about the long term maintenance requirements on these vehicles; and, has been trying to recall all of them (some owners don't want to return them and are suing for ownership provided for under the terms of their lease agreement). You have to keep in mind that, as long as these vehicles are on the road, the manufacturer has to provide spare parts and service on them for 10 years under U.S. law. Ford realized this was going to be costly and is trying to get all of the Rangers off the road so they won't have to support them.

      Toyota brought out the electric RAV4 for testing in the fleet market; and, obviously it hasn't done well enough for them to release it to the general public. Instead, Toyota has decided to pursue Hybrid drivetrains and is expecting to release several SUV's (including the RAV4 or it's decendant) this year as HEV's.

      You forgot about Chrysler. The Caravan was (is?) available as an electric vehicle to fleet buyers. Like the Ranger, it used a big pallet of lead-acid batteries slung under the chassis. It will probably never be released for regular consumer sale.

  21. Re:confused by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Insightful

    how do I root for Canada and still call myself an American?

    I suggest looking at a map, and figuring out the limits of America. Little known fact, not many people in the United States know this, but America actually extends a bit north of Vermont and a tad south of Texas...
    ;-)

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  22. How about working with Toyota? by MtViewGuy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think Azure Dynamics ought to seriously look at working with the Toyota Motor Company to develop hybrid-drivetrain technologies for the future.

    It's a good mix, too--Azure has the technology Toyota may not have, and Toyota has probably more experience with hybrid drivetrain vehicles than anyone else in the world, thanks to the successful sales of the Toyota Prius.

    I for one would love to see the United States Postal Service eventually phase out its current fleet of small mail-carrying vehicles with ones that use a hybrid drivetrain--we're talking sales that could run into the tens of thousands! :-)

  23. Re:confused by Smidge204 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When someone says "American", they generally mean the country of "The United States of America", or a citizen thereof. If they mean another country, they will usually use a more specific name, eg "Canadian", "Mexican", "Brazilian", etc.

    If refering to the continent, generally they will specify "North", "Central" or "South" America, and it will be apparent they are talking about a continent based on context.

    While it may be technically correct to refer someone living in Canada as an "American" because that's the name of the general continent they're on, it is generally not something you do unless you want to be a total sh*thead and want to start a symantics argument. ;-)
    =Smidge=

  24. Electric vehicles are viable now. by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 3, Insightful

    250-400 mile ranges are possible using existing battery technology. You can buy vehicles now which will do that at motorway speeds. Pretty much in line with current petrol vehicles.

    That said, the batteries are not your standard lead/acid ones and are still very expensive, but that's purely down to the manufacturing capacity.

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
  25. using GPS to switch between fuel and battery? by pomakis · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The article states:

    The iconic black cabs, which have been retrofitted with Azure's hybrid-electric powertrains, were designed to cut emissions in London's smoggy downtown core. A global positioning device installed in the cabs will automatically switch the engine to battery power when it enters the city centre and switch it back to fuel when it leaves.

    This seems a bit strange. One has to wonder why the decision to switch isn't up to the driver. I'm sure it's not an issue of convenience, since pressing a button is hardly a chore. Would it be for regulatory reasons? Perhaps the thought is that the drivers will want to stay on fuel power because it gives them more oomph, but that this system will force the switchover to satisfy whatever regulatory requirements are put in place. If this is true, it would seem to be a mostly unstated negative point about the technology. Creating unhappy drivers isn't the greatest way of going about pushing a brave new technology.

  26. Hmm. Diesel-Electric? by Mike+Hicks · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Looks like these guys are focusing on turning diesels into diesel-electric. Delivery vehicles often run on diesel and the London Taxis use it as well. Not really surprising that a company has been trying out that technology, since people have been using it in trains since the 1930s or so (of course, most diesel-electric trains don't incorporate batteries to store extra energy, as far as I know).

    Well, the diesel-electric train is the series hybrid type, where the engine isn't directly connected to the wheels. I imagine this company had to do a fair amount of work on the parallel hybrid type where both the engine and electric motor connect to the wheels. My understanding is that, theoretically, series hybrids are more efficient. If true, it confuses me why most hybrids we're seeing these days use the parallel style (or a variation on it) instead. I guess I've heard that, with the Prius for example, the electric motor balances out the power curve of the engine. Electric motors have extremely high torque at low RPMs, but apparently become less efficient at higher RPMs where gasoline engines are better. Of course, diesel engines have a different power curve than gasoline engines, with more torque and horsepower appearing at low RPM (probably one reason why semis have like 15 gears ;-)

    Anyway, GM has their Electro-Motive Division (EMD) that has been producing diesel-electric trains for decades. I'm curious why nobody there has (at least publicly) demonstrated some diesel-electric trucks/vans/etc.

    1. Re:Hmm. Diesel-Electric? by MtViewGuy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You have to remember that a diesel-electric locomotive is a very large piece of machinery. Even a small yard switcher locomotive is physically larger than any unstretched automobile you find on the streets today.

      But with today's technology, a parallel diesel-electric hybrid vehicle could be made quite small indeed. And it will be very clean, especially with the use of sulfur-free diesel fuels and the latest in fuel-delivery and exhaust emission control technology.

    2. Re:Hmm. Diesel-Electric? by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I imagine this company had to do a fair amount of work on the parallel hybrid type where both the engine and electric motor connect to the wheels. My understanding is that, theoretically, series hybrids are more efficient. If true, it confuses me why most hybrids we're seeing these days use the parallel style (or a variation on it) instead.

      Trains are in a situation where weight matters much much less than in a car. They can afford the weight difference of having an extra generator in there driven by the diesels. Also, their diesels are much larger, and larger diesels are more efficient. The most efficient internal combusion engine in the world is the size of a small house and runs on diesel fuel. I forget what the application was, though I believe it was on some sort of ship, which makes sense.

      Some hybrid vehicles now use a CVT (continuously variable transmission) so they can use the gasoline engine more often, and keep it in its powerband more reliably.

      Converting a two wheel drive vehicle to a hybrid is typically relatively trivial; You hook up power to the non-driven wheels. This usually represents only a small engineering challenge. The rest of the problems are fairly well-known today. As I am fond of pointing out, even radio controlled cars do regenerative braking these days, and it does make a significant difference in runtime. It's probably a bigger challenge to try to find someplace to put the batteries :)

      Incidentally, they do have semi-trucks with automatic transmissions and they usually don't have many gears. However, they are lossy during acceleration as are all automatic transmissions. They probably do have a lockup torque converter, however, so once they get going they should be approximately as efficient as a manual gearbox.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  27. Dodge Intepid ESX by Shivetya · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.allpar.com/model/intrepid-esx3.html

    That is but one story on a car using a design you suggest. A few of us bring up the D-E arrangement at various times.

    Unfortunately there are too many people who think trains/ships and get this whole concept out of scale.

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    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  28. That might well be true today. by Colin+Smith · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In America, but tomorrow it might be nuclear, solar power, wind turbine, geothermal etc. Denmark for instance gets 10% of it's power from wind energy.

    With a battery powered vehicle you can switch the supply to another generation platform by sticking a solar panel on the roof of your house and flicking a switch. Can't do that with Petrol, ethanol, methanol, hydrogen.

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    Deleted
  29. article details by evenprime · · Score: 2, Informative
    This is an excellent point that was covered by Scientific American recently. I am not sure about the statistics though.

    The article compared traditional vehicles with electric vehicles (adding in what was necessary to recharge them). The findings were pretty awakening.


    Yup. Pages 68-73 of the May 2004 issue. The excerpt/teaser for the article is on their website here. It is actually an article on hydrogen cars, but electricity is mentioned. It doesn't discuss battery-electric cars, but does discuss hydrogen fuel cells powered by hydrogen from electrolysis. One illustration in the article compares the component and total efficiencies for 11 different possible drivetrain/fuel combos. This chart shows gasoline internal comustion engine efficiency as[*]:

    Fuel Chain Efficiency = 80%
    Vehicle Efficiency = 18%
    Total Efficiency = 14.4%

    If hydrogen comes from grid electricity[**], This same chart shows hydrogen fuel cell efficiency as:

    Fuel Chain Efficiency = 22%

    Vehicle Efficiency = 38%

    Total Efficiency = 8.4%%

    It also has a chart for emmissions. That chart says that total emmissions (fuel chain + vehical) greenouse gas emmissions for a gasoline ICE are around 380 grams/mile[+]. It says total emmissions of greenhouse gasses for a grid electric -> hydrogen fuel cell car are 430 grams/mile.

    The electrolysis process should not produce greenhouse gasses, so those figures should be a reasonable reflection of electric power generation for electric vehicles, too.

    Of course, electric powerplants operate below peak capacity most of the time. Electric vehical advocates point to the negligible amount of energy required by the addition of a couple hundred battery chargers to the grid of a major city.

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    * - this chart has efficiency on the Y axis, with 100% at the top, and 0% at the bottom. The only marks on the Y axis are for 20%, 40%, 60%, and 80%. That makes exact numbers difficult to obtain; i.e. these are best guesses based on the a bar graph without nicely marked units. There is no question that the graph shows gasoline ICEs as being more efficient than grid electric->hydrogen fuel cells

    ** - This assumes the hydrogen source is electricity from a local grid. Most local grids in the USA are powered by fossil fuel.

    + - don't blame me. I'm not the moron who chose to mix metric and english units of measurment.

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    "Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
    I think that goes for OS's too
  30. Hydraulic hybrids by silentbozo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was watching Motorweek the other day on PBS, and they were running a segment on hybrids. Several companies were designing heavy trucks (think diesel platforms for garbage trucks and buses) that used high and low pressure hydraulic tanks to store and then release energy generated by the engine during operation. This enables the truck to avoid idling the engine at stops (similar to an electric hybrid) and allows the truck to get up to speed (hydraulic launch assist) based on the hydraulic pump (which is coupled to the driveshaft, similar to a motor) before kicking in the diesel engine. When operating or braking, fluid stored in the low pressure tank is pumped back into the high pressure tank (each tank is filled with nitrogen gas - that's what is being compressed to store energy.) When starting up from a stop or accelerating, the gas is used to shunt hydraulic fluid through the pump to spin the driveshaft.

    Hydraulic hybrids.