Neowin interviews Ben Goodger, Justin Frankel

mr_tommy writes "Neowin has had the pleasure of talking to two prominent figures in the I.T. world. First, Ben Goodger, chief developer of the excellent browser Firefox, and secondly, Justin Frankel, creator of Winamp and many other products for Nullsoft. We've got Ben talking about Firefox, XUL, and the future at Mozilla; equally, Justin talks (humorously) about his past, Winamp, AOL, music, and what he's up to at the moment. Also, read on for some of his projects he thought about doing when he left Winamp, including setting up an interesting alternative to Windows 2000 based on Open Source software, similar to ReactOS."

Comments

Keeping A Close Eye on Justin

[lotsofno]

Justin actually updates his weblog regularly. It's well worth checking out just to see what he's been up to lately.

Winamp Unlimited also does a good job of tracking down any online activities with the Nullsoft staff, or any Winamp/NS-related projects that might be brewing.

Two people who have made an impact....

[Gopal.V]

As I listen to my CDs with Winamp and browse slashdot with FireFox 0.8 ... I've almost forgotten the people who made it possible... it's become second nature ... Thanks for reminding me :) Especially about the part about Justin Frankel using Vim... And maybe this was a first post ?... (but I did read the articles)

Re:Two people who have made an impact....

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially about the part about Justin Frankel using Vim.

Yeah that surprised me, I mean a coder quantifying their turds is normal but a coder using a text editor like Vim... Whoaa Far out. Most unusual.

Re:Two people who have made an impact....

[MikeCapone]

Good point. Gratitude is the *least* we can do, that and constructive criticism to make good/great projects even better.

And a few donations here and there are cool too, of course.

iPod Plugin

[Will Fisher]

"I have an iPod, and I must say I do love the iPod (btw, the iPod Winamp plugin rules, too -- I can't stand iTunes, either)."

To find out more about this, go to mlipod.sf.net

--will
mlipod developer

Re:iPod Plugin

[lotsofno]

Winamp featured this iPod plug-in not too long ago in this hilarious article: Have Winamp, Will Travel.

This seriously is an awesome plug-in. It does pretty much everything I want it do with my iPod (file/playlist transfers, syncing, media management, etc..), except integrated with the media library in Winamp, which I much prefer over iTunes' interface. It even has a few features that other apps like ephpod doesn't have. The ads are great, too.

Re:iPod Plugin

[Microlith]

I'd be happy if it converted various non-alphabetic characters (like Japanese) to the proper Unicode encodings, and could display said unicode in the media library.

Handling my iPod is about the only thing winamp doesn't do with my music collection (well that and rip, which is done by EAC and LAME.)

This plugin is nice, unless you speak/read/understand non-european languages.

Re:iPod Plugin

[Will Fisher]

I'm afraid thats a limitation imposed on us by winamp.

Re:iPod Plugin

[Microlith]

Ogg uses unicode tags and those display fine (except in the media library.)

So what's the difference between the reader in the playlist and main player, and the media library?

Really it's quite sad, it'd be nice if winamp were... fixed.

NSIS is pretty sweet

[harikiri]

I haven't to-date investigated what other alternatives there are for windows-based installers, but these nullsoft guys have made one available free.

Definitely something useful for small developers who can't afford an installshield license.

Re:NSIS is pretty sweet

[the unbeliever]

Back before Thunderbird and Firefox had installer programs, I would actually create installers using NSIS to distribute it to my less than tech savvy friends. It even came with uninstall capabilities. It's pretty sweet.

Re:NSIS is pretty sweet

[Richard_L_James]

I did investigate purchasing alternative installers to NSIS for my own use, however I soon realised I couldn't find anything better in terms of cost and it's powerful functionality. If you download NSIS then I recommend downloading HM NIS Edit also as it's wizard is very useful for knocking up quick installs. Just in case any of these guys happen to see this post: "a very big thank you for these excellent tools".

Re:NSIS is pretty sweet

[txsable]

Don't forget InnoSetup (http://www.jrsoftware.org/). It's also free, and the source is available, and it's extrememly flexible and scriptable. Also, it doesn't advertise itself on the install window....

Re:NSIS is pretty sweet

[Richard_L_James]

Thanks for that... missed that one! Just been browsing through Jordan's website and some of the files. I agree another good low cost installer.

it doesn't advertise itself on the install window....

Hehe!! It is fairly faint :)

Re:NSIS is pretty sweet

[Mitchell Mebane]

There's also Inno Setup.

Re:NSIS is pretty sweet

[killjoe]

DOes it build MSI files yet?

I really feel bad for people trying to develop for the windows platform. As soon as you put something out MS kicks the chair underneath your.

Re:NSIS is pretty sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

NSIS doesn't advertise itself either. Use this directive:

BrandingText " "

Re:NSIS is pretty sweet

[bigwang]

It was better when it was called PIMP. I was saddened to find out that they changed the name. =(

Re:NSIS is pretty sweet

[anti-trojan]

If you have a relatively small application, MSI is overkill. You have to include the up-to-date Windows installers too (2 different versions, ~1 MB each) to be sure. NSIS with LZMA solid compression whereas, creates a very small installer executable.

Re:NSIS is pretty sweet

[killjoe]

If you are trying to automate rollouts via active directory they are very important.

Holy shit...

[Anonymous Coward]

Way too hard to find the legitimate links among the useless other ones - that's what google's for - for those of us who actually want to read the articles.

Took me three passes (quick, closer, pedantic mouseovering) to find the Firefox guy interview link.

Re:Holy shit...

[challahc]

It's really not that hard to tell which links to click. And I think the whole point of HTML is to link to other relevant pages, so that you don't have to look up everything.

Way to call attention to your ADD.

Some useful background information...

[Richard_L_James]

... about Justin and Ben.

Winamp poo plugin

[raistphrk]

"Professor Shatz, how much did I shat today?"

So now you won't just know how much llama ass Winamp whoops, but also what came out of that ass.

MODS: RTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

Justin does indeed measure his poo, look at his answer to the final question! it is ironic that the OP was surprised by a coder using Vim when he discloses this in the same interview. It never surprises me obvious you have to make something for the mods to get it.

waitaminute

[davejenkins]

...make a well funded ($400M or more) startup that would develop something like ReactOS-- specifically, a win2k compatible (driver, application, UI, filesystem, everything) OS. You could base it on a lot of open source code, but make a commercial product....And do it all in 2 or 3 years.

Riiiight. Commercial product off of OSS.
Well, Red Hat has been trying that for 8 years now, and, while succesful, the desktop still gives them the willies. At that, RH is the only realy company to make OSS fly, and even that required "subscription" licence voodoo dealing with the GPL.

Don't get me wrong-- I loved WinAmp back in the day. But making a W2K replacement just for the sake of it will never work financially-- what OEM would preload that? Which IHV would really REALLY risk pissing off MS just to save the few bucks they pay in royalties to MS?

Re:waitaminute

[harikiri]

Riiiight. Commercial product off of OSS.

May I direct you to a few companies/products that seem to be doing well in this regard:

• MySQL
• Trolltech (Qt)
• Apple's MacOS X
• Nokia's IPSO platform (based on FreeBSD)

I'm sure other slashdot readers can provide further examples. The trick with GPL-based OSS and generating revenue, is to provide value-add (which may be through commercial closed-source tools). Alternatively, the tried and true position is through services, which IBM and HP seem to have figured out.

Re:waitaminute

[sangreal66]

Apple's MacOS X is not open source. Also, MySQL makes money off their commerical license which is non-GPL. A better example of a profitable GPL'd Open Source product would be Red Hat Linux.

Re:waitaminute

[CdBee]

If it was anyone else but Justin Frankel, I'd agree with you. What can I say - he makes things happen.

Re:waitaminute

[killjoe]

Mac OS X is based on open source. Open source saved them years of development time which is just what the parent poster was talking about.

MySQL is able to sell commercial licenses because their product was GPLed which lead to it's widespread adoption.

Red Hat makes most of their money off of support.

I would also add to the list of the parent poster Novell. They in the end might end up making the most money off of open source (second most if you include IBM).

Re:waitaminute

[randombit]

Except Qt was not an open source project turned commercial, it was a commercial project that they decided to give away under the GPL for those who want it. I'll admit that I don't know for sure (not exactly checking up on Trolltech's finances), but I would suspect that most of their revenue comes from licensing the code to people who want to write non-GPL Qt code (similiarly to MySQL in that respect).

IPSO is based off Linux now, BTW.

Re:waitaminute

[xdeadbeef]

making a W2K replacement just for the sake of it will never work financially-- what OEM would preload that? Which IHV would really REALLY risk pissing off MS just to save the few bucks they pay in royalties to MS?

Ultimately, I think the quality of the win2k clone would either make or break it. If it really rocked, and was completely solid with room to improve in ways that MS doesn't care about, it could be very interesting. Also, it wouldn't have to be completely OSS, it could be even completely proprietary (not based on any GPL code, just BSD licensed and acquired).

Re:waitaminute

[MsGeek]

Don't get me wrong-- I loved WinAmp back in the day. But making a W2K replacement just for the sake of it will never work financially-- what OEM would preload that? Which IHV would really REALLY risk pissing off MS just to save the few bucks they pay in royalties to MS?

Considering how behind-schedule Microsoft is on Longhorn, I am of the opinion that this is the direction that MS itself is going to go eventually.

Here's the picture as I see it developing: MS decides that the current Win32 version of Longhorn isn't going to work, after all. They take FreeBSD 5.x, (whatever the current rev of it is) kernel and all, and basically build a Microsoft-y GUI and a Win32 compatibility layer for it. Nothing is stopping MS from such a move, not even Apple basically doing the same thing with FreeBSD 4.x for MacOS X. Remember, the BSD license does not prevent code from being appropriated, assimilated, and re-released as a proprietary system.

Re:waitaminute

[dasmegabyte]

My Grendel cluster will beat your Beowulf cluster.

Let me just say: as someone who has taken 16 credit hours in Old English literature, this is a hilarious sig. Though to be honest, the Beowulf cluster would beat both the Grendel cluster and the mother of all Grendel clusters...and then lose to the Dragon cluster, which I believe uses G5s.

Re:waitaminute

[Anonymous Coward]

Pst... Credit hours at one institution do not necessarily equal credit hours spent at another. Just say how many classes you took...

Atari 800xl!

[Ilgaz]

Of course. Another machine by Jay Miner and as usual the sound chip was really undocumented.

I remember I was almost shocked when I see a friend sampling sound with joystick port, only 10 or 20 lines of 6502 assembly.

Maybe that pushed him into sound and assembly?

I even remember the chips name, POKEY. One of the chips in computer history never got used in its all power.

mp3 players

[mgkimsal2]

It really does amaze me that nobody else has produced an mp3 player whose UI is even in the same league of decent as the iPod's -- don't get me wrong, the iPod's UI is nowhere near perfect and pisses me off now and then too --but everything else I've seen is just an order of magnitude worse. What gives?
It's NOT THAT HARD PEOPLE.

Two obvious points:

1. Anyone doing anything similar to Apple is charged with 'ripping them off'.
2. Anyone doing something *different* from Apple is making it 'too complex'.

IT IS HARD, PEOPLE, to replicate something which people love on an emotional level, differentiate yourself enough so as to not be seen as just a knock-off, and yet have it be close enough to the original to be seen as 'good'.

Frankly, most iPod people will *never* use anything else because, like pretty much all Apple-buying people, they've paid top dollar and will never think anything less expensive has any merit.

I do not think the ipod interface is all that hot. Let me take that back - the *wheel* thing isn't. The visual interface is OK (not much you can do there) but I don't like the wheel. Tried both a regular and a 'mini' - can't use either of them very well.

I'm speaking from the standpoint of a new neuros owner, so yes I'm biased, but so are pretty much all pro-iPod zealots (either reviewers who got theirs free or the early-adopter raving "Apple can do no wrong" crowd).

WOW - one more thing I just noticed - an iPod owner criticizing Apple! He even says the interface 'pisses him off' now and then! What's wrong in paradise? Why doesn't he design a 'better' one if is so damn easy? He says himself IT'S NOT THAT HARD.

Re:mp3 players

[Will Fisher]

so after justin frankel has already:
Made media playback rock with winamp
Made streaming media rock with shoutcast and NSV
Revolutionised peer2peer software (gnutella)
Made WASTE ('nuff said)
Made an installer system that doesn't suck (nsis)
and other smaller projects (jnetlib, safesex, mlipod, plush, etc etc)

You want him to make a portable player?

He's not superman, dude.

Re:mp3 players

[ajayvb]

I think Justin Frankel, more than anyone else has earned the right to say this.

I've been using WinAmp for what, almost 6 years now, and the UI rocks. It is simple, uncluttered, and instinctive. I don't think iTunes or any others out there are half as good when it comes to organizing and playing music (my opinion, of course). The thing that iTunes is really good at is, you guessed it, when you want to buy stuff from their music store.

Now, if I (who couldn't do a UI for nuts)were to say that...it'd be a different matter.

The argument you are putting forth reeks of the OSS advocates, who say "if you don't like it, write it yourself!". Well ,some people have different things to do. If everyone who used software were to write their own, the world would have a hard time. After all, you can't eat your own code.

Re:mp3 players

[mgkimsal2]

Hey - he's the one saying 'IT'S NOT THAT HARD'. Granted, some of those projects have had a big impact on a lot of people. So have the myriad of companies who've developed various MP3 players. He was hoping to raise $400M to develop a win2k clone. If he *really* believes it 'easy' to develop a better mp3 player (one that doesn't 'piss him off' like he says his iPod does) then why not do it? There's more money to be made in an mp3 player than an open source win2k desktop clone (which surely the investors in a $400M enterprise would be looking for).

Re:mp3 players

[Tobias Luetke]

Gees what a wired post,

First you accurse every ipod owner of becoming subjective or worse: narrow minded. Then you are suprised that the person you are quoting from is not.

Ipod has a good interface and does what it does well but in 2 years it will look just as odd as a rio64 looks now or *gasp* a walkman.

Re:mp3 players

[jsebrech]

Frankly, most iPod people will *never* use anything else because, like pretty much all Apple-buying people, they've paid top dollar and will never think anything less expensive has any merit.

I do not think the ipod interface is all that hot. Let me take that back - the *wheel* thing isn't. The visual interface is OK (not much you can do there) but I don't like the wheel. Tried both a regular and a 'mini' - can't use either of them very well.

Just because the wheel doesn't work for you is no reason to assume it obviously must not work for anyone and that all the people buying ipod's are elitist fashion whores.

And, yes, I do own an ipod. I like the wheel. I personally think the ipod is a superior mp3 player to anything out there. But you won't see me going around saying all neuros owners are contrarian low-budget poor-taste schmucks, because I know that isn't true and there are good reasons why someone might prefer a neuros over an ipod.

WOW - one more thing I just noticed - an iPod owner criticizing Apple!

Apparently you've never read the apple ipod support boards.

Re:mp3 players

[mgkimsal2]

BUT this is someone who generally *does* write/build things themselves, and furthermore probably has more than enough ability to do it. Rather than complaining that no one else is doing it 'good enough' (although god knows there are dozens trying), if he really believes IT IS NOT THAT HARD, then demonstrate.

I believe he probably would come to a different conclusiong.

It's probably NOT THAT HARD to build something *HE* would use, but IT IS THAT HARD to build a physical device to be sold at the consumer level. Anticipating everyone's needs/wants/desires in hardware is a lot harder because you can't flip a few bytes, recompile and say 'download the new version'.

I'm actually normally against the 'DIY' attitude that most OSS people spout, primarily because, as you say, people have better things to do with their time. BUT, for someone in his position, who probably *could* do something better (at least to address the issues he has with things), and with a winning track record, to simply bad mouth everyone else's attempts *AND* tell people 'IT IS NOT THAT HARD' reeks of arrogance. Maybe he's earned that in your mind, i dunno, but not in mine.

Re:mp3 players

[Anonymous Coward]

My God, you are a fucking idiot.

Re:mp3 players

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop whining.

Re:mp3 players

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because the wheel doesn't work for you is no reason to assume it obviously must not work for anyone

That would be excellent advice for Apple and iPod lovers in general.

Re:mp3 players

[mgkimsal2]

Just because the wheel doesn't work for you is no reason to assume it obviously must not work for anyone and that all the people buying ipod's are elitist fashion whores.

Read the post again. Nowhere do I say that it obviously doesn't work for anyone. On the contrary - it's selling, and must work for some people.

However, read comments (or listen to comments) by iPod owners about other players. Invariably, they will end-up bashing the other player, on 'ease of use' or 'intuitiveness' or something else. The wheel is indicative of that, as it's the most different design element in comparison with other players.

No, I don't read Apple support boards. Most of my Apple owning friends claim that you don't *need* support with Apple products because "they just work", but that's another story.

I didn't say iPod owners were elitist fashion whores.

My whole point on this was that the subject of the article was stating that IT IS NOT HARD to build an MP3 player that would be superior to the iPod. I certainly do not believe it is not hard - in fact, I believe it would be very difficult. 'Superior' is obviously relative, but combining all the good features of all the players out there into one unit hasn't happened yet, and won't for a long time (if ever).

My point wasn't criticizing Apple or the iPod, but I was criticizing the backseat hardware designer attititude displayed by the subject of the article.

Re:mp3 players

[xdeadbeef]

"IT IS HARD, PEOPLE, to replicate something which people love on an emotional level, differentiate yourself enough so as to not be seen as just a knock-off, and yet have it be close enough to the original to be seen as 'good'."

But you're missing the point. A decent UI should be somewhat usable (in control and speed) and somewhat powerful. Many portable devices these days are neither. Getting a decently fast, decently usable UI that is decently powerful is EASY. If you spend any time on it, anyway. Trying to replicate the iPod's UI is not what was meant.

Re:mp3 players

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that iTunes is bloated and doesn't behave well by default (at least in Windows). I agree that Winamp is way better than iTunes as a music player, etc, etc.

But I also believe that Justin Frankel was completely frustrated for not being able to take Winamp even further. Try foobar2000. Don't give up after you see the interface (most new users are scared by the absence of skins :-O ) Try using it for some days. Check some third-party plugins and some alternative formatting strings. And, even more important, its audio capabilities. It has built-in support for every major lossy audio format out there (MP3, Ogg Vorbis, Musepack, AAC, etc) and also features ReplayGain, proper dither, supports all major tagging systems properly and it's completely customizable.

BTW, foobar2000 is developed by Peter Pawlowski that once worked for Nullsoft (Winamp's current default output plugins were made by him - check the about box). I guess he just got tired of Nullsoft/AOL corporate inertia.

Usability whining from Winamp author! What next?

[Anonymous Coward]

> It really does amaze me that nobody else has
> produced an mp3 player whose UI is even in the
> same league of decent as the iPod's

I haven't used an Ipod so can't comment on it, but HONESTLY, is this the guy who did Winamp speaking?! That ugly nonsense of UI, with non-standard microscopic buttons (chained!) and almost no keyboard shortcuts and next-to-unusable selection behavior in the song list and so many usability quirks I don't even know where to start? Man, it's laughable.

funny definition of prominent

[SuperBanana]

Neowin has had the pleasure of talking to two prominent figures in the I.T. world. First, Ben Goodger, chief developer of the excellent browser Firefox, and secondly, Justin Frankel, creator of Winamp and many other products for Nullsoft.

Aside from occasionally coming up with some cute, trendy toy to piss off AOL, could someone explain how exactly Justin Frankel is "prominent" in the "IT world"?

Re:funny definition of prominent

[IncohereD]

Aside from occasionally coming up with some cute, trendy toy to piss off AOL, could someone explain how exactly Justin Frankel is "prominent" in the "IT world"?

Anyone who went to university in the last 5 years has probably had WinAmp on their computer for at least 50% of that time. And a lot of them 100%.

Not to mention that Gnutella was the first non-centralized P2P protocol, and although it didn't work out all that well in the end, it provided a starting point for research in the real world.

And WASTE is just awesome.

Re:funny definition of prominent

[rkaa]

I too find the use of "prominent" unsuitable in this context. Ben Goodger and a handful friends merely nicked the work of hundreds of Mozilla developers and testers. "We're standing on the shoulders of a Giant" Goodger wrote - with his head in the sky and an unusually clouded vision. Firefox code isn't optimized like he claims. All optimization has till now happened in the Seamonkey code first. Firefox' contribution to "new" is mostly hype, headlines and funny name changes. Oh.. and new graphics! They are nice. But they don't make Firefox faster. If Firefox is at all measurably faster it's because they ripped out fat features and intestines alike. But the diet smell of politics and stopwatches. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". "We've slimmed it down - Now reinstall it!"

Cause as it turns out: An equal amount of implants are required to compensate for the digital liposuction. You loose some, you win some. Rejoice: Even the GO-button is an extention now! Firefox "developers" most innovative contribution to the browser is a tool to repair broken installations. Broken by the very "extentions" needed to replace the features they ripped out. Lucky end user. He now has to update not only the browser, but also a shitload of addons for each upgrade. Or of course pay the price: Bugs galore.

Less isn't more, Ben Goodger. Less is just bloody less.

Mod Parent +1 Funny

[Anonymous Coward]

It is too bad that what should be +1 Funny was modded -1 Flamebait because the other mods can't read the article.

Wix XML Installer is comparable as well...

[networkGhettoWhore]

The Wix Project which was the first project to be released by microsoft as free code, is an XML based windows installer suite. This is a good alternative to Nullsoft's if you are looking for something a little more hands on.

The project can be found at http://wix.sourceforge.net

New XUL features

[pherthyl]

I can't wait until they have a well documented standalone XUL runtime. I would love to have more info on using XUL as a cross-platform GUI toolkit.

Also, does XUL have any vector capabilities? Or does this solely depend on the underlying graphics system's support?

Re:New XUL features

[Anonymous Coward]

no... but you could use svg with it.. since it's XML as well

Re:Usability whining from Winamp author! What next

[xdeadbeef]

...almost no keyboard shortcuts... You're kidding me?

New XUL features-Books.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then I recommend getting the book. As well as looking at the online o'rielly book.

MS already did unix...

[sp0rk173]

And they fudged it. Xenix, my (wo?)man. I honesty think microsoft has invested too much time and money into their own API's to ditch the core of it now. And if they do take FreeBSD's code, i'm not sure how that would be a bad thing. FreeBSD will live on. Microsoft will (for a change) have a solid code base. If MS feeds patches back in, great. The FreeBSD coders won't submit crap code (forgoing any kind of "fuck you, open source bitches!" code). If MS sends nothing back, meh - big deal.

One thing that people seem to never realize (or just plain ignore) about FreeBSD is that it's all about research and putting out a good, rock-solid OS. They don't want to take over the world and displace the big boys.

Look what you've did, you've gone and pulled me off topic.

Comparable mp3 player UI

[sp0rk173]

I don't know if you've used the Rio Karma before, but it has a fairly intuitive UI. All the navigating is pretty much down with it's sexy little red nipple. It's actually kind of a turn on to use. It's all one-finger navigation, hierarchical menus with the most used menus at the top (it's not per-use based and dynamic, they're statically placed, but the placement seems pretty intelligent). I even broke the little scrolly wheel dealie on the side, and it still is completely usable just with that one nipple do-dad. Of course, it could be that I payed over $300 bucks for it, so i feel obligated to like it. I've used an iPod before and...i wasn't really that impressed.

And the karma plays FLAC, WMA, and ogg along with mp3. It's a nice little machine. Go buy one today! *thumbs up, tongue in cheek*

But seriously, it is a nice little machine.

Oh, and i do realize this has nothing really to do with it's parent, but i thought i'd throw it out there. A comprable product DOES exist. You don't have to just buy an iPod.

Re:Usability whining from Winamp author! What next

[dytin]

...and almost no keyboard shortcuts...

Maybe you're thinking of Winamp3? Because Winamp2/5 has plenty of keyboard shortcuts. Winamp5 even has unviversal shortcuts. Justin Frankel had nothing to do with Winamp3.

Downhill from MS WXP?

[leandrod]

I wonder what he meant that it is all downhill from MS WXP...

Does he mean he thinks MS 'quality' has gone down -- never touched MS WXP, but I know some usually quite reliable people who vouch MS WXP is less stable than MS W2K on white boxen -- and he expects for some reason -- which? -- to get even worse?

Or is it about DRM, Treacherous Computing and the such?

Re:Downhill from MS WXP?

[0racle]

XP is 2000, only with an optional new UI. Anyone who likes 2000 and hates XP is talking about the UI and hasn't realized you can turn it off, or they don't know what they're talking about at all.

Re:Downhill from MS WXP?

[leandrod]

> XP is 2000

NT.

Choose Not True or MS WNT, both will make sense.

There are new drivers, new modules, new bug fixes besides the UI. All these could introduce regressions.

Winamp's UI: Warning I will go into Tangents

[tyrione]

Compared to say the straight-forward CDPlayer.app for NeXTSTEP I always thought WinAmp was crap, but compared to Microsoft was 24K crap.

Interviewing a person who programs the application that competes with another application to give objective, indifferent,non-emotionally tied observations is like asking Steve Jobs to compare NeXT to Apple.

If you can't guess already, all the sleekness and class of computer styling went into NeXT, unfortunately at a time when people couldn't appreciate its grace.

Now we get a advice about UI design from someone who definitely wouldn't be in the same class as a Keith Ohlfs, but I guess if you can't reach Keith Olhfs for commentary I guess a programmer will do.

Personally, peer2peer doesn't turn my crank, nor does any audio application. I own a home stereo for that crap. If I'm on the go its called a car stereo. If it's bipedal than its a portable player.

What do all these items have in common? None of them involve overkill software that doesn't KISS.

Simplicity in form and function are two Mech. Engineering principles that are embedded within the iPod's design paradigm. If you can't see that than the odds are you wouldn't know how to distinguish one suit that is made by Gucci and another one straight off the rack from The Men's Wearhouse. You don't see the hero of Firefox or WinAmp gracing the cover of TIME Magazine, or GQ or various high profile marketing campaigns. You either have an innate ability to create style or you just cheaply copy it and nitpick it as being technologically inferior because it lacks certain "features" only a tech nerd considers important.

Ask your girlfriend, if you have one, or better yet a wife if she gives a rat's rear about Ogg Vorbis or all the extra crap littered inside WinAmp, XMMS and myriad other players.

The odds are not in your favor they will, unless of course she's a female extension of yourself that lives and breathes programming.

Personally, I don't graze for women in the same profession I am in. It just isn't good business.

On a side note as both an Mech. Engineer and a developer, what the hell is with the Visualizer module in so many players? If I'm listening to Halford or Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Queensryche, RUSH or what have you I sure as hell am not Siddin' out to a Visualizer. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.

A little bit of clarification about winamp history

[kiberovca]

Before you all continue talking about how winamp is great and all, I think you should know that the history is not so nice. Especially when Justin Frankel says "In 1997 I ported AMP (a free mp3 decoder at the time)". AMP code was free for non-commercial use, but...

Check out this and this and this.

What Frankel "forgot" to mention is that Nullsoft made money without even mentioning that they used AMP code, and only after they got sued, Nullsoft "admitted" that they used "a bit of AMP code" which just so happens that it's an important part of the decoder thingie...

So, all is well in corporate world... :|