Slashdot Mirror
Sun will Open Java's Source
bckrispi writes "An announcement from Sun spokesman Raghavan Srinivas indicates that, contrary to what we've heard in the past, Java will be Open-sourced. "We haven't worked out how to open-source Java, but at some point it will happen," Srinivas said."
This is an excellent boon for open source software. Even if we only get small portions of it, having open-source Java can only benefit the community.
Thanks, Sun!
Not to be a cynic, but "at some point" they will "somehow" figure out how to open source Java?
And at some point I'll somehow figure out how to make a million dollars while sitting at home playing my Playstation, too.
I fail to see how this qualifies as news.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I really can't see any good reason for Sun to open Java or Solaris. They won't accept patches unless the copyright is assigned to them, and Sun will have a license that wont allow code from GPL work to enter Solaris or Java and vice-versa. If they really did, I would take it as more of a "We Give-Up" move just before everything falls apart. I personally would hate to see Sun go.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Instead of waiting two years, do it now when it counts most. If Sun feels some degree of uncertainty, then test the waters by open sourcing selective parts of the JDK - especially the parts of the Java libraries that are widely perceived to be neglected.
So, they are planning to be constantly changing the language then? What are they smoking?
I think they're worried about someone forking it. What they ought to do is release the Java code under the GPL but not give up their trademark on the Java name. That way, forked versions can't call themselves Java unless they meet Sun's existing compatibility criteria.
It doesn't sound that challenging. Slap a CPL on it and dump it on SourceForge. I think they are trying to figure out a way to make it Open Source, yet still retain control over it and derive revenue from it. Sooner or later, they are going to realise that they only have three choices, none of which are very good (for Sun):
- but-we'll-call-it-open-source license which alienates the OSS crowd and causes open rebellion. Same outcome as #1, only quicker.
1. Java is not open-sourced and falls out of use like most closed standards eventually do.
2. Java is released as open-source and they lose control of it.
3. Java is released under a pussyfoot-shared-source-with-lots-of-restrictions
Overall, it doesn't look like Sun can win with this.
Unknown host pong.
It's not nearly as big a deal as open-sourcing, say, Solaris, simply because it's not going to wreck a primary revenue stream for Java.
I've wondered for a while where Sun makes money from Java, particularly enough to recoup what they spend on it. I can't imagine it affects sales of Solaris boxes that much.
Not quite an accurate analogy... Java's a platform, so if they release the platform code, there's the potential that a grassroots inititive might cut the fat, and release Java Lite (Decaf). If not, just look for additional branches in the java hardware support tree. Linux is strong because it's fundamentally higher in the operating system food chain, running off a highly optimized kernel, on platform specific assemblers. Up until recently there haven't been many processors that have supported a native Java runtime, so everything's been run in a JVM. If anything, it's about performance and community involvement.
I disagree, there really is no value in sun controlling java itself.
Sun own's the java brandname and wants to exploit that, that is there asset. If you want proof, look at the sun java desktop which has not the slightest thing to do with java.
If turned over to the open source crowd java will be powerful and popular in no time. That means the word java will be used all the time, making sun's brand more powerful.
Very Funny!
People often don't realize how expensive/lucrative Enterprise Support is compared to the cost of H/W and S/w. Companies charge as much as 29-35% of the product cost as support per year and support is never discounted. i.e companies give away s/w and h/w worth a million and charge say 290k per year in support.
Support/services is often the number 1 consideration in purchasing.
So, I would not be surprised if sun's net revnues do not decrese after they opensource all of their s/w, including OS.
Besides, why does Sun want to fix a bug for which there is no revenue tied? Sun might rather fix an obscure bug from a paid customer than fix the most popular bug. By opensourcing Java/ or OS, they will be opening a new maintenance channel for their platform while still making the same service revenues.
In our company, Sun support team is respected and our IS claims it is worth all the cost.
I think that people who worry themselves over the ominous and supposedly inevitable "fragmentation" really need to take a second look at things.
1-There are numerous examples of open source programming languages that have remained centralized and unfragmented, like Perl and Python.
2-Because java depends on a uniform standard and VM, any attempts to split off or fork the source tree will die miserably due to a lack of compatibility with the massive pool of existing code and classes.
3-In fact, there is actually LESS chance of fragmentation when Java lies in the hands of the public, first because it means that no one will start up a competing "openjava", a venture that would almost certainly lead to incompatibilities, and second because, as the example of the death of xfree86 shows, too much central and absolute control over software by a small group will inevitably anger developers and users alike, leading them to search for an alternative.
Honestly, this is slashdot. You people should have more faith in OSS.
It will certainly increase its adoption, especially in the open source world, thus fulfilling its original purpose: write once, run anywhere.
-jim
The reason they don't know how long it'll take is likely due to licensing agreements, patent royalties, and other little issues encumbering the code, on top of the normal burocracy.
Inevitibly, in large organizations with large projects, some manager attempts to (and often succeeds in) shortcutting the development time by licensing or purchasing some outside code or technology. I would be surprised if Sun's implementation of Java was completely developed in house and/or completely owned without exception by Sun. They have to vet all the code and modules to be certian that they have the right to release Java. I doubt they'll release the unencumbered parts before it's all ready.
Further, there are likely to be patent and legal encumberances to the code which may prevent immediate release. It could even be that people along the line have said, "I'll patent this technique later, for right now it's a trade secret." There may yet be code in there which they can capitalize off of by patenting, while allowing for usage within java without charge.
And, of course, they have to make sure the company lawyers and accountants are satisfied with whatever terms they release it under. They may even wait until the SCO thing blows over if they really want to use the GPL (Unlikely).
So don't hold your breath. The ideal outcome would make one able to compile it for platforms which it does not yet run on natively and stable.
-Adam
It seems from analyzing sourceforge that Java seems to be doing quite all right within the OSS community just as they are. Coming a clear third behind C++ and C is not bad in terms of language use.
There is enough OSS built around Java to keep it alive in the OSS community and popularity as a whole is right across the board.
They do have real concerns about losing control. Usually, without too much hassle, Java can live up to its write once, (test and then) run everywhere. Will this be so if there are forked projects?
It would be great to get the OSS community in on improving Java but I can see why Sun want to remain in control.
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
I would be happy if they just opensourced the virtual machine so distros can include it instead of me having to jump thru hoops getting it installed and working. Aslo this might allow different distro's to tweak the VM so it can run smoother and faster on thier version of linux while still supporting the develope once run anywere model. I'm not sure what else is in sun's java offering, I asume there would be an aplication server, a developers ide and maybe some other stuff.
Sun is giving the VM away as it is, It would be nice to have it gpl compatable so it can be used right after an install.
Good points.
I wonder, with something as big as the whole Java world is right now, if you're not right.
Take an OS, for example. Look at the difference between OS X and Linux. Linux is going in every which direction but has more potential than just about anything on the planet.
Apple, however, took Free BSD and put a super nice wrapper on it. They've got managers who keep developers focused and executive officers who keep managers focused. Often, the open source community has a very narrow and selfish view when it comes to certain things. Like, why make software easy to install, like OS X? No need- any Linux user (present or future) is smart enough to compile his own software, resolve dependencies, etc.
A person has to ask- could the OSS community ever have produced a gem like OS X? Could it have produced Java? OSS has the skillset, some of the sharpest folks on the planet. But who is keeping them coordinated? Who is the CEO with a single, cohesive vision?
Don't get me wrong on OSS here. It has produced cool, big things like the Linux Kernel, Gnome, KDE, XFree86, etc., etc. All wonderful pieces of a puzzle that just doesn't seem to fit together quite as well as they need to when it comes to building a complete OS platform.
Well, i'm not sure how sun is making a ton of money off of java now. They give the virtual machine as well as the web client away as it is. Maybe it is somethign to do with thier java desktop wich I asume won't be gpl'ed. Maybe if "opening the source" will get things runing faster and a little smoother There would be more of an market for thier desktop system.
AS far as running microsoft and liking it? Thats because it is there. Most people won't even look under the hood and care, with java, people are going out ang getting it so they know what is there and more of the people using it are the ones that would bitch about microsoft. The difference is the amount visible to the public. Microsofts users would have more that didn't care where java users would have more that did care.
When Jonathan Schwartz spoke at the Utah Java Users' Group he said Java drives a LOT of server sales for Sun. He specifically mentioned embedded java, e.g. in cell phones, as opening new revenue areas for servers. Java licening fees themselves are a drop in the bucket relatively.
It will be interesting to see what kind of license Sun goes with given their oft-given fear of forking Java. Seems to me that something like the Qt license would be the way to go.
IF they release it under the GPL, I see this making the open-source world a lot friendlier to Java. IF thy release it under a GPL licence, then KDE/GNOME will integrate java more closely(I.E. standardize).
I think the smartest move would be for Sun to relase Java's source under the plain old GPL, but not let any implementation use the Java trademark unless it meets their criteria( so they can keep Java from fragmenting)
Java is managed by a standards organization. It's call the Java Community Process. Any individual can join for free and contribute to the Java standards. Companies can join for a reasonable cost. Everything that goes into Java is standardized by the JCP and every JCP standard is freely implementable.
.NET is better because it's an ECMA standard. He's too dense to understand that not all of .NET is part of the ECMA standard and it's not truly an open standard because although I can freely implement what the ECMA standard says, I can't do jack crap to change what's in the ECMA standard. The standard is controlled wholly by Microsoft.
Explain to me why we need ANSI or ISO?
A colleague of mine insists that
Explain to me how this is better than the JCP?
The JCP is already slow enough. The last thing Java needs is some bloated organization like ANSI or ISO to get involved.
If you develop in java, you don't have to pay sun any money. Sun uses what they call a "protected source" license, which basically says, "Anyone can use this, but only we can make changes, or release new distributions."
Open sourcing java wouldn't really hurt them, and god knows java could use it.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
I keep wondering if they mean the java class libraries or the Java virtual machine (which runs those java applications)?
Opensourcing can only help java. It will definetly spread its adoption to be standard on many linuxes.
But as I understand it I can compile my java code under gcj, kaffee, jikes, javac and it will work. But what if someone, let's say Microsoft, comes along and uses their monopoly within let's say the OS market to push their own version of the java language and call it ... um ... J++. So people are out the writing J++ compaitable programs that won't run on anything but Windows. But they think they are writing in java cause it looks just the same.
This is not what Sun wants.
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
...a significant popularity. You mean just like Mono, or WindowMaker, GNUStep, DragonFlyBSD? Its a miracle when any piece of software, no matter what it is or what license its under, becomes popular. Simply taking a closed or heavily guarded app or language, remember the specs and Java API's are there for anyone to read, and turning that into an OSS project is not going to make it more popular, but will make it a lot less useful to Sun. If Microsoft suddenly opened Windows tomorrow, would that make Windows magically better then it was today? Would you spend the time submitting patches to a system that you would have to give up to Microsoft?
Java is Sun. While that probably doesn't mean all that much to most people, it does to Sun and everyone whose spent the time and money to certify there apps as J2EE Certified. Sun would have to be smoking some really good stuff to think that giving that up would be a good thing. Java and C were made for very different reasons, C was to be the prefered language for Unix development, so it was stupid not to have it open and standardized as Unix went down the same path, Java was always concieved as something that Sun would keep, leverage it and open it enough that it would be used, but still Sun would have control.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Mono beta 2 now includes a Java VM. "allows Java and .NET code to run side-by-side. It contains the latest release of IKVM.
.NET, turn to them and say, you can still use Java.
Sun's Java Class Libraries are very nice and full featured, if Java was open-sourced, I'd see Mono and Java merging together quite nicely. Write in whichever language is most comfortable, and call whichever API does the job the best.
I see this as a good solution for Sun which is seeing developers leaving for
``That said, I hope java doesn't end up fragmented.''
You mean, more fragmented than it already is with Sun, Microsoft, Apple, Kaffe, gcj, Latte, Jikes, and so on and so forth all providing their own implementations?
``One of the really nice things about java is that despite a few problems, it's very portable.''
Oh yes. About as portable as C, Python, Fortran, ADA, Pascal, Common LISP, Scheme, PHP, Ocaml and a plethora of other languages.
``I've never personally had a problem moving my code from one machine to another.''
You lucky bastard. You must never have moved your code developed with a modern Sun JDK to a machine using Microsoft's VM. Or an old (1.0.x or 1.1.x) Sun JVM, for that matter. Or tried running AWT code on pretty much any of the open source JVMs, which are kind of your only choice if your machine is not x86, PowerPC or SPARC, or the operating system is anyting besides GNU/Linux, Solaris, Mac OS, OS X, or Windows.
Java is a dream that never came true:
1. Write once, run everywhere is a myth, because you need a good VM and class libraries, which are only available for a few platforms.
2. The official distribution is bloated to the top and runs slow even with JIT compilation. Java programs use lots of memory. This makes Java unnatractive even if you can guaratee it will work on your target system.
3. GUIs in Java are a nightmare. AWT can be a bitch to code for, lacking many useful components. Swing uses "pure Java" widgets, which are slow and don't fit well with the native widgets on your system. SWT ought to be better, but is not included in the distribution, so if you want it, you need more bloat.
4. High performance apps are out. GUI apps are a nightmare. What's left? Simple command line utilities? Nah, much better written in a different language. Whomever heard of multi-second startup time for hello world, and BufferedReader in = new BufferedReader(new InputStreamReader(System.in)); before you can do something useful with standard input?
Oh yeah, it runs on cellphones. At least, the very much scaled down J2ME does. But don't expect good performance, and don't expect software written for some cellphone to run on yours. It's the same story again.
Java has failed.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
> I disagree that "most" closed standards fall out of use. Many survive.
:) JAVA is the only language with a corporation full of lawyers threatening to sue anyone who releases an implementation they don't like.
Outside the IT world you have a point. But name ONE major IT standard that is still relevant that is a) closed and b) not a microsoft 'standard'. I exclude MS because they are a convicted monopolist and have certain unfair influences on the marketplace that has permitted them to maintain closed standards for a little longer than everyone else.
Networking standards are the obvious example where closed has been the kiss of death. Closed information services were crushed by the Internet, all non-IP network protocols are now in legact maintaince mode. How many email systems are left other than SMTP/POP/IMAP? Instant messaging is the one holdout because Jabber couldn't get their act together to the point where every ISP became expected to host a Jabber locator server just like they host a mail/dns/news/etc server.
File protocols are rapidly converting to open, with the notable exception of MIcrosoft and their Office formats. A host of closed graphics formats fell to GIF, JPEG and PNG. The myriad audio and video formats have all but collapsed to WAV/MP3/MPEG/AVI/WMV/OGG. Even the MS standards are fairly open (for MS tech) with the exception of rights restricted flavors of WMV. MP3 and MPEG are artifacts of a day when RAND licensing was considered open.
JAVA must open or face a decline. It is the only current language with any real restrictions on implementations. Anyone is free to write a C compiler, and many do in school. Anyone if free to rewrite Perl, but would be daft to try.
Even worse, with the current situation Linux distributors can't include a JVM (Sun's or IBM's) in their collection, even those who are willing to bundle closed apps, so no JAVA app can ever be a core app in the Linux or BSD worlds, and considering the state of affairs in Windows land it isn't likely to happen there either. That Sun can't see that widespread, unfettered distribution of the runtime is a plus for all Java advocates doesn't bode well for a real Open Source release of the JDK.
But anyway, JAVA the language probably has a future but JAVA the emulator/VM really doesn't. Sun can slow the evolution down through skilled lawyering but native compilation similar to what GCC is now doing is the future, one where JAVA is just another language and source gets compiled to native code and depends on the normal system libraries.
The only reason for the emulator was to allow closed source apps to be semi portable, but as closed source becomes less of an issue there will be less and less reason to pay the emulation penalty of the JVM. In the Open Source world portability is achieved with GNU autoconf, not by compiling all code to run on a mythical platform which is then emulated on whatever host it happens to be running on today.
Democrat delenda est
So you've gone and confused generics with autoboxing. And we're supposed to listen to you demand someone does templates. Uhuh.
"You know you want me baby!" - Crow T Robot
There are various implementations of Java with truly good enhancements, like real templates, design-by-contract and other good stuff
There are two dangers to this:
1) Incompatible forks. Java is supposed to be "write once, run anywhere". Different implementations of a common standard can be good. Diverging language features can't be.
2) At heart (without the class libraries) Java is still a small, simple, clean, readable, easy to learn language. Enough well-meaning enhancements, and it could end up looking like perl. Ugg.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
Why do I sense so much hatred and ungrattitude against SUN? It has been one of the pillars of UNIX, has given away many technologies that today define UNIX/Linux. Without SUN UNIX would have been irrelevant long ago, and with it Linux would have been just as irrelevant.
Why don't people see the strategic importance of the UNIX world (which includes Linux) holding together and fight against the real enemy?
I do have my concenrs regarding Suns recent "peace" with the enemy, maybe we can no longer rely on SUN, but at least one must acknowledge what SUN has done for the UNIX community.
The lack of historical perspective and irrationalism of many of the SUN haters is shocking to me. It almost makes me think that the enemy has sent inflitrators on slashdot with the purpose to spread division and internal struggle inside the UNIX world.
Well, i'm not sure how sun is making a ton of money off of java now.
They do it by selling software services.
Sun: "We'll sell you software stuff and services."
Customer: "OK - what will it be written in?"
Sun: "Java"
Customer: "Cool - we already use java, its free, and we can use your software anywhere."