California Initiative to Expand DNA Database

vervais_sucks writes "A California attorney is personally bankrolling, to the sum of $1.3m, an initiative to require law enforcement to take DNA samples of every person they arrest for a felony." The (lengthy) initiative is available here (search for DNA on the page).

Comments

I agree with this

[(1337) God]

If we already fingerprint criminals, what's the big deal if we take a "biological footprint", if you will, of them?

Re:I agree with this

[MoonBuggy]

Maybe, but firstly I'd say it's only fair to take it after conviction not arrest - if you haven't done anything they have absolutely no business even knowing your name, let alone your DNA. Secondly, you'd want some solid legislation in place to prevent the use of as-yet impossible sequencing techniques to scan the database for people of a violent disposition (for example) since while possibly helpful many people can control themselves and do not deserve to be bumped up the suspect list.

It can work, but as with all things the potential for abuse should be eliminated before its introduction.

Re:I agree with this

[harlows_monkeys]

If we already fingerprint criminals, what's the big deal if we take a "biological footprint", if you will, of them?

The problem is that law enforcement does not understand how to use DNA. It's true that DNA uniquely identifies an individual (well, to the level of twins and such). However, that is only if you do a very extensive DNA comparison. They don't do this in law enforcement. That is expensive. They only do a comparison at a few points, and that doesn't uniquely identify a person.

What this means is that when used in a Bayesian manner, DNA evidence is very powerful, but when used independently, it sucks. So, for example, if there is a crime, and they have recovered samples from the crime scene, and then, based on other means, they have identified you, me, and a few other people as suspects, and my DNA matches the samples, then it's pretty much a lock--those are my samples. On the other hand, if they just take the samples, run them through their DNA database, and I am the only match, that is pretty much worthless.

An analogy would be if they somehow could tell from evidence at a crime scene the last two digits of the criminal's social security number and the last two digits of the criminal's phone number. If they have three suspects acquired through traditional means, and one has a matching SSN and phone number, that is pretty clearly their man. If, however, they just go to the phone book, find all matching phone numbers, and then check their SSNs and find a match, and that's all they have, they have nothing. There will be plenty of other people that match.

That's basically how DNA matches are done. They compare at a few bases, which is kind of like comparing phone and SSN numbers at a few digits.

Re:I agree with this

[epistemology]

Why wait for a conviction? Or even a crime? Just take DNA from everyone at birth. You guys are too quick to give up your privacy. You are ceding too much power to the government. Why couldn't the government just say, target nigge... I mean inner city types by making it a felony to smoke crack, but only a misdemeanor to do powdered cocaine and then differentially enforce the law so that we get a good database of, you know, those kind of people who usually commit crimes.

It sounds a little bit like overkill

[sixteenraisins]

Perhaps if instead of taking DNA samples from everyone arrested for a felony, if they only took samples from people convicted of a felony. After all, a convicted felon already forfeits certain rights upon conviction. But what about people wrongly arrested?

Re:It sounds a little bit like overkill

[snarkh]

Perhaps they can get it removed, but how often are people really "wrongly arrested"?

You are kidding, right?

E.g, http://www.caught.net/innoc.htm: For every seven executed, one innocent person is freed-an "error rate" of more than twelve (12) percent. In the State of Illinois, 12 people have been executed since 1977 while 13 have been released after proving they are innocent ...

And that is just for the most serious crimes, where the evidence is checked much more thoroughly.

I would imagine tens or hundreds thousand people are wrongly arrested every year.

Good for a couple reasons

[dotslashconfig]

First - it makes it easier to determine if a felony was committed by a previously arrested criminal. It also expedites the speed at which information is shared if we can pinpoint perpetrators in this way.
Second - should someone be sentenced to death, reversing said conviction/sentencing is easier if you have DNA evidence to back up claims. Though, I suppose it sucks for the criminal if they then do some retests, and the final verdict of the testing is that you did it.

Presumption of innocence..? hello...?

[RLiegh]

So, let me get this right; you get arrested, have a dna sample taken and then -if youre found innocent... ...what happens to the dna? (how likely do you think it is that the sample will be destroyed in practice, even if thats the policy?)

Re:Presumption of innocence..? hello...?

[jfengel]

"Upon written notification from a law enforcement agency that a person is no longer a suspect in a criminal investigation, the Department of Justice DNA laboratory shall remove the supect sample from its data bank files." -- Article 3, section 297(b)(2).

Whether you trust them to do so is another point, especially given the next sentence which says that if (by accident, of course) they don't delete it, and you get convicted of something based on that evidence, that conviction stands.

Security standards for that database are somewhat underspecified.

Article 5 is all about expungment of the samples. Basically, you request in writing that you've been cleared of all charges, and if nobody objects, they have to destroy it within half a year.

Again, whether you trust them to actually do it... well, we trust the police to carry guns, don't we?

too far

[Sinful_Shirts]

So sometime in the future we are going to have people being arrested because their DNA indicates that they have a very aggresive/compulsive/sadistic whatever predisposition. It's easy for the authorities to say that they are only going to use it for crimes, but who knows what they might decide to do in the future. I think that this is going to far.

'arrested'?

[Junta]

The article says anyone 'arrested', not convicted, which gives me concern. People can get arrested and found to be truly innocent. Fingerprints aren't particularly invasive, simply a unique identifier, but DNA, as they say, could be examined for more information about what traits a person could carry. Granted, fingerprints aren't nearly as reliable and much easier to eradicate the presence of compared to DNA samples and the DNA bank would be useful, but once you go beyond tracking that which is merely unique from person to person to that which potentially lays out behavorial tendencies, health issues, etc, it becomes much more disconcerting.

An interesting film based on the premise of too much focus on DNA tracking is GATTACA.

I don't get it

[tobar mersa]

Maybe it's just me, but I really do not understand why they will take a DNA sample of every felon. I guess I didn't realize that the commision of fraud required leaving something from which DNA could be obtained.

The next step

[freejung]

So this is just a rehash of the so-called "slippery slope" argument, but it applies and is important.

This sounds eminently reasonable, though I'm not sure I like the "arrested for a felony" part, it would be much more reasonable to use convictions. But they print you on arrest, so why shouldn't they take your DNA too, right?

Ah, but they fingerprint you for a drivers' license too. They didn't, at one time, but now they do. Because the argument was made that, well, if we take your prints on arrest, why shouldn't we take them for a drivers license too? That will, of course, be the next step.

I would actually be completely in favor of this if we had a resonable law enforcement system, which we don't, and if there were any way to assure that this will not be used as an argument for taking DNA from everyone, which there isn't. As it is, I think this sort of thinking needs to be stopped before it spreads.

Question

[DarkHelmet]

I know this may be incredibly ignorant on my part. Keep in mind that I do software for a living, and not forensics or anything of the matter...

But would it be possible to store a hash of a person's DNA? I know that people who run open source software typically check any sort of download for MySQL, PHP, or anything else for that matter against an MD5 string? Now, why couldn't somebody's DNA sequencing match against something like SHA1 or MD5?

I figure it might have to do with mutations / etc screwing up the hash generated. But isn't there some kind of hash that could compensate for that sort of thing?

I'm just wondering if there's a way of matching DNA without storing sensitive information like possible health defects, etc..

Personally, I would not mind something like this used for homocide or rape. I'm just concerned, like everyone else, that this will be a slippery slope towards other things.

Re:Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, everyone has a very odd understanding of DNA fingerprinting. They take a sample of cells. They DO NOT and CANNOT sequence your entire DNA sequence (the Human Genome Project took years to do this for just two people). What they do to make a fingerprint is to copy the DNA, slice the copy up with enzymes looking for certain sequences, then look at the relative weightings of the bits. This IS the hash that you're talking about, only it's a biological hash function, not a mathematical one.

Jeez, I wish people would find out about the technology (it IS /. after all!) before running scared. We're now seeing "satellites tracking where ex-felons are" (no we're not: the GPS system is passive; it's the box on your leg that's (failing) to track you). We're seeing "fingerprints will identify you from a database" (no they won't: there's about a 1:10000 match chance, so matching a random fingerprint against a 250,000,000 database is going to get a lot of false positives).

You know, (supposed) technologists talking to politicians is a very dangerous combination..

Re:Not clear cut, more information is required.

[phoenix.bam!]

Genetic diseases for one. Do you want your insurance company checking up on your DNA record and finding out that you have a dispotision to some costly disease and dropping you? Even convited felons don't deserve that.
How about if a violence gene is identified and those who have it get a +1 guilty in their court trials just because of that?

Big Brother is watching!

[midifarm]

For all of you that haven't, please read George Orwell's 1984. This is yet another step towards that type of regime encompassing every aspect of our lives enslaving us like drones and sheep. For every bit of privacy that we give up, we're one more step towards putting on the yoke of opression. It doesn't matter if it's a criminal or as "benign" as getting your driver's license, you should have the right to privacy and freedom from tyranny from your own government

Putting
Americans
Through
Rediculously
Inhumane
Opression
and
Tyranny

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel." -- Patrick Henry

Peace

An inevitable scenario.

[Biotech9]

In the bad old days of Northern Irelands terrorism, a family of catholics were arrested for bomb making. One of the family members was one of the guilford four. The evidence used to convict the rest of the family came from a semtex detecting machin, which was later found to be contaminated. Every test came up positive for explosive(, laughably, there were no negative controls).

Now Imagine the possibilities with DNA evidence, as it is, DNA is becoming very relied upon for convictions, and the police are getting overly reliant on it. In the future, someone arrested and sampled may get a full iron clad water tight conviction over a laboratory error. A mix up of the DNA sample taken, and a DNA sample taken from the scene of the crime...

This isn't even taking into account the fact that a crooked cop could find it very easy to contaminate a crime scene sample with DNA taken from a suspect.

These concerns could be overcome with good safegaurding, and good laboratory practise, but if the past is anything to go by, it's time to get paranoid.

Idiots!!

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Great yet another attempt erode liberties. Someone should set up a site documenting these travesties.

And as usual the guy responsible has a ROCK SOLID excuse.

"People I love were killed!!"

Oh really! How awful! I guess it's OK to lead us all one step closer to a police state then! Here Swab me first!!!!

Of course he'll call us all heartless cranks who want criminals to get off and he'll say that this won't REALLY undermine democracy. Just like the PATRIOT act!

God I hate these people. Why didn't he donate his money to funding more social programmes that reduce the amount of criminals at an early stage! But I guess that just wouldn't be as efftive as having a poorly administered DNA database now would it.

Re:Slightly different opinion.

[silverbolt]

#2. All DNA samples take from #1 are to be PURGED COMPLETELY from any databases after 30 days.>/i>

I don't see this happening once law enforcement starts liking the power they have with all this new information. No government organization will willingly give up saved data.

Re:Not to test the citizens, to test the system.

[servognome]

just replace random citizens, replace with random goverment official. Then there will be a vested inerest in the officials making the system as good as possible