China Blocks Wikipedia

Lemmingue writes "China government is, again, restraining the access to internet. Ars Technica says they are now blocking the Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. How much time will it take for to Slashdot be blocked?"

Comments

Speaking of blocking...

[the_other_one]

How much time will it take for to Slashdot be blocked?"

Slashdot is already blocked in China and India. Geeks are still productive overseas. This is the main reason for the offshore outsourcing frenzy.

How soon can Slashdot be blocked in North America.

Re:Speaking of blocking...

[Distinguished Hero]

Um, what makes you think that Slashdot is blocked in India? I call BS.

By the way, most of the programming jobs are being outsorced to India, with extremely few going to China (manufacturing is a different matter).

Re:Speaking of blocking...

[the_other_one]

...with extremely few going to China (manufacturing is a different matter)

Just wait...

Re:Speaking of blocking...

[dtfinch]

Just search google for "http proxy list" and you can find tens of thousands of anonymous proxy servers for those freedom loving Chinese to use. They can't block them all can they?

Re:Speaking of blocking...

[timstarling]

Apparently they can. I was talking with a computer-literate Mainlander on this subject in the Wikipedia IRC channel. He said that ordinary HTTP proxies are blocked, and that to access Wikipedia now, you need a secure tunnel.

Re:Speaking of blocking...

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it a bit hypocrite for the most active Wikipedia developer vigilante to make such comments? For the record, Tim Starling used his developer powers to block thousands of Halifax, Nova Scotia citizens from editing the Wikipedia, in order to censor specific "trolls" whose opinions some Wikipedians found troubling.

Re:Speaking of blocking...

[joshmccormack]

So are secure tunnels looked upon with suspicion, or are there 'legitimate' reasons to have one? ie ecommerce, security, etc.?

Is there some sort of dynamic steganography that could serve a site to look one way unless you have the appropriate software and key on the other side?

Re:Speaking of blocking...

[hesiod]

> events carried out against students just like us.

Like us? I think you need to understand your audience. Most of "us" aren't students, in the traditional sense.

Slashdot not going to be blocked

[0x0d0a]

How much time will it take for to Slashdot be blocked?

Slashdot *does* criticize Chinese policy, including information control and the like.

However, it's also extremely critical of the current US administration, which China's current administration is not a tremendous fan of.

Also, Slashdot (at least the English slashdot.org) is not in Chinese, limiting the number of people that can read it. Wikipedia is translated to Chinese.

I do agree that this sucks. Technically, China is still communist, and Wikipedia is about as fine an example of the triumph of successful communist principles (community-owned, from according to assets, to according to need) as you could ask for. Seems like a stupid idea on the part of China.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[LWATCDR]

"I do agree that this sucks. Technically, China is still communist, and Wikipedia is about as fine an example of the triumph of successful communist principles (community-owned, from according to assets, to according to need) as you could ask for. Seems like a stupid idea on the part of China." Guess what China has never been a communist country. In fact there has never been a communist country per Marx. China is a not free and seeks to control every aspect of the life of the people that live there.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[photon_chac]

I think **reason|logic** doesnt speak here. The government will block whatever it deems right and its ourselves who invent those various reasons why why why.

if i say u down , u down

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[Distinguished Hero]

In fact there has never been a communist country per Marx. China is a not free and seeks to control every aspect of the life of the people that live there.

China would not necessarily have been any freer if it had been "a communist country per Marx." I think it's time that people finally accepted that the Austrian / Chicago school of economic thought is far closer to freedom than any of the garbage Marx, Engels, and Lenin were spewing. Free societies require (at least mostly) free markets; history has shown this.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[tobar mersa]

Austrian / Chicago school of economic thought is far closer to freedom than any of the garbage Marx, Engels, and Lenin were spewing

Free Markets like Singapore? or Pinochet's Chile? Or how about Revolutionary France, with guarantees to property?

I know none of these are perfect examples, but simply because a place has free markets, does not make them inherently free.

I believe many people should remember that all countries which have declared themselves to be based off of Marx and Engels have also been one-party dictatorships. Thus, even though all means of production were in the hands of the Government, since the Government was in the hands of a small cadre of party leaders, the Government, and thus the nation, could be considered to be in private ownership by this small clique, and the means of production again created what their owners told them to create, only this time without any effective means of staying out of bankruptcy due to bad management.

Of course, this completely ignores the fact that the People's Republic of China does not qualify as Communist nowadays, as they permit private ownership of the means of production (about fifty percent, iirc), and encourage Capitalism, that thing which Marx and Engels were trying to replace.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[Distinguished Hero]

I never stated that a free market guarantees complete and utter freedom; I merely stated that a free market is closer to freedom than a centrally planned economy, a claim which you did not refute. Given two hypothetical countries, both with brutally despotic rulers and the same amount of rights, with the exception of one being centrally planned, and the other possessing a free market, which country is freer?

My point was "Free societies require (at least mostly) free markets." Rebutting this statement by listing states which possessed a free market and yet were not completely and utterly free does not disprove my point; implying that I stated that societies with free markets are always free and then disproving that point it a straw man fallacy.

Furthermore, there is evidence to support the fact that free market economies eventually lead to the downfall of oppressive regimes (see East Asian Tigers excluding Singapore, etc.). Certainly you will agree that a free market economy is far less hospitable for tyrannical rulers and oppressive regimes than a centrally planned economy.

Perhaps there is a reason why all the countries which "declared themselves to be based off of Marx and Engels have also been one-party dictatorships." Sure, correlation does not imply causality, but given enough examples, perhaps one should begin doubting the divinity of communism. There are certainly enough beliefs within the dogma of communism (must be attained through a revolution, forcefully taking controll from some and giving it to others, etc.) which would be conducive to the sort of "one-party dictatorships" that have historically emerged.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[SnoBall]

do agree that this sucks. Technically, China is still communist, and Wikipedia is about as fine an example of the triumph of successful communist principles (community-owned, from according to assets, to according to need) as you could ask for. Seems like a stupid idea on the part of China.

Agreed, communism isn't as great as democracy (although, it (communism) may have some hidden advantages), and I don't know enough about Communism in general to make a statement about this.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm... The high level of pompous rhetoric that peppers your writing makes it pretty clear that someone took Logic 101 last semester.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[tobar mersa]

Given two hypothetical countries, both with brutally despotic rulers and the same amount of rights, with the exception of one being centrally planned, and the other possessing a free market, which country is freer?

They are equally unfree. Simply because a person is free to own a factory in one land does not make it more free than a land where a person is forbidden from owning a factory. The fact that a person is free to accumulate great wealth in this scenario has nothing to do about the freedom to speak out against the crimes of the Government.

My point was "Free societies require (at least mostly) free markets." Rebutting this statement by listing states which possessed a free market and yet were not completely and utterly free does not disprove my point

I probably misread your comment. You also wrote: I think it's time that people finally accepted that the Austrian / Chicago school of economic thought [emphasis added] is far closer to freedom than any of the garbage Marx, Engels, and Lenin were spewing. Thus, I assumed you considered economic and societal freedom, if not causal, at least correlational. I was simply trying to point out that Free Markets do not require Free Societies; thus, a Free Society could easily slide into a non-Free one, whilst the market still went about its work.

Certainly you will agree that a free market economy is far less hospitable for tyrannical rulers and oppressive regimes than a centrally planned economy.

I agree it is far less hospitable than other forms of economic systems. Just it is also not wholy inhospitable. After all, a dictator could easily permit a free market for anyone who does not oppose the regime.

given enough examples, perhaps one should begin doubting the divinity of communism. There are certainly enough beliefs within the dogma of communism (must be attained through a revolution, forcefully taking controll from some and giving it to others, etc.) which would be conducive to the sort of "one-party dictatorships" that have historically emerged.

I think this is more a result of having nearly all Communist countries that lasted any appreciable length of time outside the U.S.S.R. modeled their development after the U.S.S.R. This means that the Coup d'Etat launched by Lenin often termed the October Revolution provided the effective base for single-party governance, as the Coup was mainly Bolshevik in character, and the following Civil War effectively quashed the other parties. Then Uncle Joe Stalin (or, as I prefer to call him, Tsar Josif) took over after Lenin's death, and squashed any rights which interfered with his outlook on how the country should be run (N.B.: this included economic rights. Lenin established the New Economic Policy, which broke up Government owned industries into different sections, which were then ordered to compete along pseudo-Free Market Lines; also, the ownership of small factories and of small stores of under, iirc, ten people was also legalized. Stalin made an alliance with the Old Bolsheviks promising to keep the NEP if he is installed into power instead of Trotsky, who vowed to rid the U.S.S.R. of the NEP. Then, after gaining power, Stalin did away with the NEP and the Old Bolsheviks both.) Then, when other forms of authoritarian Communists were trying to gain power, they followed the way that had worked in the U.S.S.R.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[NanoGator]

"Slashdot *does* criticize Chinese policy, including information control and the like."

Additionally, Slashdot rarely reports the news error free, then it drives so many people to any given site thus blowing it out of existence. Maybe Slashdot isn't blocked because the Chinese gov't is saying "Heh, we don't have to worry about them learning anything new there."

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[astar]

Brutally despotic rulers are not much favored by most people. So I think your set up was a bit artificial. But let us suppose we have some brutal and despotic rulers and also that public stock corporations were discrimated against by the brutal despotic rulers, let us say by high taxes and heavy regulation. Compare that to brutal despotic rulers who let the corporations run wild, break unions, monopolize, cook the books, rig prices, etc. etc.

Now it seems to me given your free trade ideology you would prefer the second. I would then suppose you are pretty happy with Bush's economic policies.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[Wellmont]

Hehe but that's the draw back of living in a communist country, you never get to live arround or experience all your communist benefits. I hear a lot of people glorifying the communist ideals, even holding the authors of modern communism higher than the likes of Reagan, Lincoln, and Washington. Everything that you espoused as a benefit of communistic ideals is a part of "all" governments:
"community-owned" (I don't know of a country that doesn't say it's community owned.)
"from according to assets" (every person in the world will try to stay within their spending [including governments], but few succeed, least of all communist nations of the past.)
"to according to need" (Wikipedia is free, it is however based on a technology that is not free and we see this lack of freedom winning on all fronts on a daily basis [I'm still waiting for the internet to be "to according to need"].)
Wikipedia is a fine example of people working for the betterment of the world knowledge base, without pay. The people involved (including the companies) don't seem to want anything out of it other than slight recognition. Wikipedia is beginning to sound more and more like Francis Fukuyama's Democractic America (satisfying thymos while providing a public service) than Marx's Communist Russia.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, none of those countries are examples of free markets.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[CodeMonkey4Hire]

That is hardly a sound argument. A few counterexamples does not prove that something can not exist.

I expect that you are also applying your middle class perspective on how free a society is. I would too. But how free do you really think the lower class is in capitalist society? Just because the pressures against them are more subtle and indirect doesn't mean they don't exist.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[Anonymous Coward]

Wikipedia could also be held up as an example of Christian charity, or just plain "being a good neighbour" (where the world is your neighbourhood).

To try and extrapolate the co-operation of a few hundred or thousand people on a single project to The Worker's Paradise as dreamed of by Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Castro and other people with facial hair, is like saying the guy at radio Shack is just like IBM because he can solder some transistors.

Wikipedia is wikipedia.
Communism is communism.
China is China.

China blocking wikipedia is a stupid idea, but it probably has zero to do with communism, in theory or in practice.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[possible]

There are no free market countries that I know of. U.S. industries are so heavily protected and subsidized by taxpayers it's ridiculous to think we have anything approaching a free market. Our aerospace industry is subsidized to a stunning degree by taxpayers, as is the communications sector, agriculture, and the energy sector. The U.S. steel, auto, and tech sectors are receiving, or about to receive, huge anti-competitive protections that go against all free trade theories. People in the U.S. don't want free markets in the U.S. -- they want free markets elsewhere.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[Warlok]

Technically, China is still communist, and Wikipedia is about as fine an example of the triumph of successful communist principles (community-owned, from according to assets, to according to need) as you could ask for.

Huh? Get yer head out yer ass - wikipedia is a voluntary organization of people brought together for a common purpose. Communism is the introduction of force to redistribute wealth and prosperity "from those according to their abilities, to those according to their needs". The difference between wiki's and a communist government is the force bit - if I don't want to contribute to a wiki, I don't contribute. If I don't want to contribute to a communist government, I get shot.

Re:Slashdot not going to be blocked

[hesiod]

> The high level of pompous rhetoric

Not understanding what "pompous rhetoric" is proves that you NEVER took Logic 101. He was right, straw man argument -- and I last took logic about 7 years ago.

Three words.

[the_other_one]

Humor, artistic license

Re:Three words.

[Distinguished Hero]

I see. I would have personally attempted to link the rampant growth of the Chinese economy with the low number of Chinese citizens reading Slashdot. In that case, you would be engaging in a logical fallacy, but at least the the individual statements which you would be linking would be factually correct. I find humour to be a bit more humorous when build upon reality rather than fiction disguised as such; then again, what do I know...

Re:Three words.

[pjay_dml]

On the cyber-highway, a lonely surfer gets pulled over: "Sir, could we please see your licence and registration please?"

Re:Three words.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you always such an asshat, or only when you're wrong?

Or was that redundant?

Just another reason why...

[Read Icculus]

We need to develop tools to share and distribute information securely, anonymously, and efficiently. Government control in these matters is not in our best interests, and in the best interests of the rest of the world. Sure this sounds like your normal "information wants to be free" rant, but when the government here in the United States tries to send someone to jail on trumped up Terrorism Charges for running a website... well it's quite clear that freedom of speech and the rights I hold dear mean nothing to those in power. "Even" in the "freeset nation on earth".

Sure there's freenet and what have you, but when it comes to oppressive governments I'd rather not have anyone know I'm functioning as a freenet node and a relay for certain information.

Re:Just another reason why...

[reverius]

check out i2p... maybe it's exactly what you're looking for. if you're really impressed, and you can, please contribute! we need this network functional and -used- as soon as possible, given the state of politics worldwide and the necessity for free speech.

http://www.i2p.net/

Re:Just another reason why...

[pla]

check out i2p...

From the very page you linked: "Please keep the www.i2p.net url private as before, no Slashdot links"

So, I take it that, for some reason, you dislike this project and want to kill it young, via a Slashdotting? ;-)

Re:Just another reason why...

[reverius]

LOL, never noticed that... whoops. I find it odd that they have a publicly available website, complete with domain, if they want it to be "kept private"... I guess in retrospect, I'm sorry I posted the link, but it never occurred to me not to. :)

They are so fragile

[ericandrade]

If the chinese government thinks that wikipedia is a menace to their power, I wish them good luck in the years to come.

Re:They are so fragile

[pegasustonans]

Well frankly, I wish them bad luck. Maybe then people will get fed up enough to start demanding their freedoms on a greater scale.

Is slashdot.org blocked in China?

[jsse]

See it yourself.

Re:Is slashdot.org blocked in China?

[jsse]

Thanks bloody slashdotters! You knocked the test engine down! :)

Anyway, slashdot.org is not officially blocked or restricted in China - YET. If your China friends found it difficult to access /. from China it might due to some self-disciplinary measures by individual ISP.

zh.wikipedia on Tianenmen

[beeplet]

I thought it was interesting - but not terribly surprising - that the access was cut off just prior to the anniversary of the Tianenmen Square massacre. It's odd to be able to access a Chinese site from the US that is blocked there... (Or has the block been lifted?) In any case, I was poking around and found their page on Tianenmen. Some of the pictures are familiar - I wonder how many people in China would find them as familiar as I do? Too bad they can't see them.

Still, I think this is a stopgap measure at best. The wikipedia is an easy target because it's a clearing house for links to information, but as long as there is any internet, there will be a way for this information to be passed around. A better model for disseminating information underground would be a highly decentralized system - harder to navigate, but more robust.

I also thought it was odd that there were only 100 regular contributors, out of a country of 1 billion+ people. Is it lack of computer access? Or fear of reprisals? I have to have admiration for the people who put the zh.wikipedia together in the first place.

Re:zh.wikipedia on Tianenmen

[Jon Chatow]

At first, zh was blocked in and around Berlin a couple of days before the anniversary; this block has since expanded to cover most of our IPs, and our whole set of DNS domains, and being blocked throughout China, from what word we have had passed on.

All Wikimedia servers are hosted in Florida, so life is unaffected for the rest of the world. Sadly, this is not the case for our Chinese brethren.

Wikipedia [[User:Jdforrester]].

Re:zh.wikipedia on Tianenmen

[arwel]

At first, zh was blocked in and around Berlin a couple of days before the anniversary...

Or even in and around Beijing! :)

Re:zh.wikipedia on Tianenmen

[Jon Chatow]

Umm. Yes. Don't mind me. Was thinking about the Berlin Wikimeet at the time :-).

Only Chinese version of Wikipedia?

[a.koepke]

Having a look at the article text is states "Ten days ago the Chinese government blocked Internet access to the Chinese version of the Wikipedia".

To me that seems to imply that the English version of the site has not been blocked. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

Re:Only Chinese version of Wikipedia?

[Distinguished Hero]

The very next line of the article states:
"This past weekend that block was extended to include other language versions as well."

Re:Only Chinese version of Wikipedia?

[Anonymous Coward]

The next sentence says:

"This past weekend that block was extended to include other language versions as well."

Re:Only Chinese version of Wikipedia?

[nroose]

Wikipedia is reporting that All of wikimedia, including wikipedia is blocked as of June 12.

Internet_censorship_in_China

Re:Only Chinese version of Wikipedia?

[tobar mersa]

I find it particularly ironic that many people call the Chinese Firewall the "Great Firewall of China". The Great Wall of China did not do its specified task very well.

Most of the Great Wall that we see, know, and love today was made under the Ming Dynasty, which ruled from 1368 to 1644. They probably did this in order to keep out the Mongols again. Of course, when the Ming fell, they were taken over by the Qing, or Manchu Dynasty, which attacked across the wall, and conquered all of modern-day China, and then ruled if for 360 some years.

I don't think the supposedly Communist Chinese leadership wants to use that as an example of their Firewall policy.

Totalitarian societies

[Red Warrior]

can't abide free flow of information.

All governments rely on the consent (or at least aquiesence) of the governed. As soon as the majority really BELIEVE that there is something better possible, it's all over.

Re:Totalitarian societies

[Anonymous Coward]

> All governments rely on the consent (or at least aquiesence) of the governed. As soon as the majority really BELIEVE that there is something better possible, it's all over.

Depends who's holding the guns. I'm sure a great percentage of folks living in Stalinist USSR believed there had to be something better - getting that without getting killed or shipped off to Siberia, that's a different problem.

Re:Totalitarian societies

[Jesrad]

Then jsut calculate what the majority is by weighting in executive power ;)

Re:Totalitarian societies

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinese society operates by a different paradyme from what others are used to. For the average Chinese individual, life is about ones family and friends. Great notions of changing the government are less a part of their sphere of concern than in other parts of the world.

China is an ancient and vast civilisation that has always been ruled by emperors and despots.

Why block Slashdot?

[duffbeer703]

Any subversives looking for information to undermine the Communist regime would instead find themselves posting inane posts about dead operating systems, hot grits and beowulf clusters.

Hmm... maybe /. is actually a mind control device.

Wikipedian discussions

[teslatug]

For some discussions have a read at the wikipedia-l mailing list.

It had to be said

[moosesocks]

IN COMMUNIST CHINA, Wikipedia blocks YOU!

Pro-China posting

[GuyMannDude]

How much time will it take for to Slashdot be blocked?

We just have to liberally sprinkle lots of pro-China comments in our messages to ensure that our geeky breathern in the Far East can continue to enjoy the scintillating, intellectual banter found everyday on this great site.

• Lucas should have cast Jet Li as Jango Fett!
• I'll bet the upper levels of Starfleet Command are all Chinese. That's why you never see them on the Enterprise. They're too important to be in harm's way.
• Chun Li could totally kick Guile's ass!!!

There, I've done my part.
GMD

Re:Pro-China posting

[Distinguished Hero]

We just have to liberally sprinkle lots of pro-China comments in our messages to ensure that our geeky breathern in the Far East can continue to enjoy the scintillating, intellectual banter found everyday on this great site.

Given the political leanings and the level of historical knowledge of a large portion of Slashdot' s posters (just like most of Western civilization's inhabitants), this will probably occur naturally.
Why are there so many anti-Israeli protesters and yet so few Free Tibet protesters. If one were to sit down and logically analyze the two issues, would there still be such a disparity between the number of people supporting each cause?
Why is there so little outcry when the PRC decided to "test" yet another missile across the Strait of Taiwan? Why are Europeans so concerned with the actions of the US yet so (relatively) apathetic toward the actions of China? (I can understand why some Americans are so concerned about the actions of their own government, but what about the Europeans and the Canadians?)

Re:Pro-China posting

[Anonymous Coward]

> Given the political leanings and the level of
> historical knowledge of a large portion of
> Slashdot' s posters (just like most of Western
> civilization's inhabitants), this will probably
> occur naturally.

Except for you, right?

There is plenty of grassroots outcry against the occupation of Tibet - if you haven't seen it you're deliberately ignoring it. It's not in the mainstream press because big business (and therefore the US government) doesn't give a shit about Tibet because it's worthless politically and economically to the US.

You are, incredibly, blaming American protesters for lack of attention when it's clearly the American government who doesn't care. The government does nothing because it's in the national interest to do nothing. China is a big trade ally and a nuclear power. Israel is basically a big US military base in the middle east. The US doesn't care who the Chinese and Israelis subjugate for now, unless it makes for good PR (pro-democracy college kids and a statue of liberty clone getting crushed by tanks was great fodder for cold war propagandists - the Timorese holocaust, for instance was not).

The Taiwan-PRC is rooted in 19th and 20th century American and European interventionism. Mao and the nationalists were both corrupt killers, but primarily because of American dollars, the opposition to Mao's popular takeover survived long enough for a series of civil wars interrupted by WWII. The stage was/had been set for a totalitarian regime no matter who came out on top - starvation, mass murders, and civil war were unavoidable for a country carved up by Europe and then pitted against itself by America. Now we are supposed to be outraged by China's gunboat diplomacy against the heirs of the nationalists? They learned it from the West. I'm wondering if more foreign intervention is really what they need?

Re:Pro-China posting

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are there so many anti-Israeli protesters and yet so few Free Tibet protesters. If one were to sit down and logically analyze the two issues, would there still be such a disparity between the number of people supporting each cause?

Two reasons:

1) Israel is a democracy. Everyone expects brutal dictatorships to supress their own citizens, but democracies are supposed to support human rights. Man Bites Dog has always been far bigger news than Dog Bites Man.

2) Israel is supported and supplied by America. The attacks on civillians in Palestine are a direct result of US policy. In contrast, there's very little Americans can do about the situation in Tibet without getting involved in a nasty conflict with a nuclear superpower.

Re:Pro-China posting

[Anonymous Coward]

they're also Jews, and most leftists don't like Jews.

Oh the historical irony.

How China Edits /.

[jazman_777]

How much time will it take for to Slashdot be blocked?"

All Chinese accounts read at mod level 6:Confucian.

Re:How China Edits /.

[pingurslapp]

Confusious Says: Even the greatest of whales is helpless in middle of desert. What will they do now without wikipedia, I know devolop there own language and have no need for english... OOps too late

me chinese, me play joke...

[NanoGator]

I'm in China right now, and I just wanted to let you all know that Slashdot is still avai-0x$942k29482... [NO CARRIER]

Posting on the /. won't help them either

[romanm]

This issue has been raised on wikipedia-l mailing list and there were some opinions that they should try to resolve things quietly before making headlines. Posting on the Slashdot at this point of time sure won't help anyone (OK, so people have the right to know).

SPAM to the rescue

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Maybe someone should use a spambot to mass mail every net user in China encouraging them to rise up on a specified date.

Spam may end up being useful. The irony alone is compelling

Re:SPAM to the rescue

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe someone should use a spambot to mass mail every net user in China encouraging them to rise up on a specified date.

And attach a random page of the Wikipedia.

Actually, _wikipedia_ blocks http proxies

[Anonymous Coward]

Wikipedia has a policy of banning all HTTP proxies from editing, citing "no legitimate use", even if whole IP ranges are blocked. Of course, this plays in the hands of technocrats. There are reputedly many private proxies on dialup IP ranges, supposedly used by trolls. Wise Wikipedia sysops, of course, know that "these are all one person", similar to medieval scholastics attributing all evil to just one "Devil", and accusing all that sympathize with that one as "heretics". Obviously, the implications of the Chinese block are quite huge for the current technological escalation warfare between Wikipedia sysops and "trolls".

why flamebait?

[Anonymous Coward]

i also wonder how much google's "do no evil" policy is worth if they're willing to give in to censorship demands. but i'm nobody. it's easy to do no evil, until avoiding evil means giving up something that matters to you.

Re:why flamebait?

[Stargoat]

Actually, Google found itself blocked last year for some time.

that should be easy

[Anonymous Coward]

...you can just use all their open spam relays.

How big is the internet in

[vijaya_chandra]

your country?!

All my friends laughed at me when I asked them this question.

Now thanks to the chinese government, they would realise that I am not a fool but a visionary

Big freaking clue

[LWATCDR]

Roosevelt in a speech in January 1941 talked about the four freedoms. They have very little to do with economics. It is much more simple and human than Marx.

"In the future days which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.
The first is freedom of speech and expression --everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way
-- everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want
--everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear,
--everywhere in the world."

What a world it could be. But China is not it. It is not even close. The US is not living up to this totaly but at least a lot of people in the US know where it should be going. I get sick to my stomach when I see all the idiots on Slashdot hold up the right to download kiddie porn and swap mp3s as freedoms. There are places where you can not teach your children about God if you do beleive in God with out worrying that your door will get kicked down and no one ever see you again!
I do not care if a country is capitalist or not if they do not at least try for those four freedoms they are HELL. I know that some people belive trading with China will help it become free someday. I pray that they are right. Start with those four freedoms and then we can work on which system of ownership works the best!

Re:Big freaking clue

[Anonymous Coward]

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way

Does this disturb anyone else? Where is the freedom to deny the existence of this God, to worship someone or something else, or not to worship at all?

Re:Big freaking clue

[LWATCDR]

Nope it really doesn't seem to but if it bugs you the final paragraph should drive you right over the edge.

"This nation has placed its destiny in the hands, heads and hearts of its millions of free men and women, and its faith in freedom under the guidance of God. Freedom means the supremacy of human rights everywhere. Our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights and keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose.

To that high concept there can be no end save victory."
So go nuts. Most logical people would assume that the freedome to worship God in his or her own way also means the right not to believe or worship.

Re:Big freaking clue

[Humpinate]

Ummmmmmmm...Please understand I'm speaking for NO ONE ELSE BUT ME....Now that I've made that clear, Please discontinue ALL religious rhetoric when discussing technical and information issues. Reference President Roosevelt's comments for clarity, should you need to do so.

Re:Big freaking clue

[LWATCDR]

Believe it or not I do agree with you. How ever the freedom of religion is such a fundamental freedom that to talk of freedom and not bring religion up is next to impossible. It does not matter if it is the moron in California that shoots up a jewish kindergarten, Nazis, the Klan, the USSR, modern China,or the idiots that want to ban Darwin from the schools the freedom to think and to wonder about the universe and about nature of God are fundamental freedoms and they are tightly tied together Hitler did not spend much money on building an atomic bomb because he did not trust "Jewish physics". The USSR fell so far behind the many of the fields because they had to fit with "marxist ideals". Nobody can really be safe and free to question, speak, or even think unless they are also free to pray, read holy ("To them") texts, or to not! There are more important freedoms than the right to download porn and MP3s.

Troll Boy

[Anonymous Coward]

She called me after that comment you know, she was crying..

Mod parent up!

[tobar mersa]

This is EXACTLY what I was trying to say; this is much clearer, however.

Great Wall still pretty great

[doodlelogic]

The Great Wall of China did not do its specified task very well.?

You then go on to say that one dynasty survived behind it for nearly 300 years, the next for c.360. Sounds like a pretty good defensive record to me.

Only hope the great firewall falls much quicker. Can you see their suppression of information from space?

Re:Great Wall still pretty great

[tobar mersa]

Yes, but the second dynasty conquered China, by attacking through the Great Wall. As this was a dynasty of Non-Han Chinese, they had no need for the Great Wall, as their Home Province (Manchuria) was on the other side of it.

Likewise, the Ming Dynasty was the one that put most of what we currently consider the Great Wall up. Thus, they went to this extreme expense for nothing.

Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!

[Moqawama]

Tahya al-Moqawama al-Iraqiya!

Fuck the American pigs! Pigfuckers, they all are! Soon we will make all their towering buildings like the World Trade centers!

Death to the American pigs!!
Death to the American pigs!!
Death to the American pigs!!