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Mind Scans to Map Decision Making Mechanics

Posted by michael on from the chocolate-strawberry-vanilla dept.

rrangel writes "Newsweek is running an article on the fMRI, which tracks brain function by measuring blood flow, and using it for watching the mechanics of economics and choice. Best quote on economic choice: '... there is no quantity of juice sufficient to get a male monkey to look away from the hindquarters of a female in estrus.' H. Hefner has known that all along."

17 of 218 comments (clear)

  1. Re:..there is no quantity of juice sufficient.. by murraythegreat · · Score: 5, Funny

    very few wives have MRI scanners

    --
    See your sig here
  2. Humans are lucky... by mangu · · Score: 5, Funny
    '... there is no quantity of juice sufficient to get a male monkey to look away from the hindquarters of a female in estrus.'


    We don't need that the female be in estrus.

    1. Re:Humans are lucky... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually it was a well thought out and a well written post. You are the one who is ranting a load of crap. You find the theory repellent so you attack it and the poster rather than argue against it. Not surprising as this is /. after all.

      Steven Pinker discusses similar problems in his book The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature. Suggesting that nature can be an important factor (even if only a little) gets you labelled a extremist nutter. Yet those who say mans instincts are unimportant are considered moderate and acceptable. Robert Winston in his BBC programme also had to deal with similar attacks after his show aired.

      It is clear, to me at least, that a large portion of human behaviour has an instinctive aspect to it. Some reinforced by culture and others reigned in by the same. No one is denying upbringing and culture have an affect on how someone behaves or that people are unable to contain the animal within. (Which I presume is your beef with the post). Just that human evolution has also provided some instinct mechanisms that also affect how someone behaves. I don't recall the 'crap' spouting poster suggesting otherwise.

  3. Two things... by ifwm · · Score: 5, Interesting

    First, why do researchers assume that blood flow and glucose use equals proof of thought patterns? Now, there may be a correlation, but as my research methods professor loved to say "correlation does not equal causation"

    Second, juice may not get him. but cocaine will. I saw a study that showed a monkey will give up everything, including food and sex, for cocaine.

    1. Re:Two things... by glueball · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The BOLD theory, that's why. Blood Oxygenation Level Detection. You are not measuring glucose directly, you are measuring a spin-able for of hemoglobin that is in the state of giving up oxygen. Oxygen is thought to be used in glucose metabolism. Metabolism is thought to be a sign of life. FMRI measures the amount of hemoglobin. The interesting data comes from measuring *changes* in the amount of hemoglobin utilization.

      One can see motor movements in the brain. I tell you to move your finger (or think about moving your finger ) and I can see in the brain the area that: hears me say "move your finger" then the language area that interprets "move your finger" and the pre-motor area firing, then the motor area firing.

      There are a million tests that can be given in the MR scanner. Some of them can be really funny.

      Examples on request.

    2. Re:Two things... by Life2Short · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What if you had to figure out how a computer worked just by looking at how much electricity was being consumed by the various components? You would know something about the various components involved with specific tasks, but you wouldn't understand what was going on in the components themselves or how they work. Some are processing, some are storing, some are pathways, etc. I think this was the point of the original post. fMRI can tell us about what areas might be active, but we still have a long way to go to figure out how the brain works in detail.

    3. Re:Two things... by glueball · · Score: 5, Interesting

      First I met someone at a FMRI scanner. It turns out that she became my wife.

      Second test: Stroop. Never seen so many smart people get so frustrated. A word is presented: "RED" It is written in green ink. What color is the ink? Then, just as you get the hang of it, what is the word?

      Third: Nicotine addictions. Drop a bolus of nicotine into a willing research subject. I've heard "That's better than sex" to "Ohhhhhhh" to "I think I wet myself"

      More later.

  4. Insufficient juice by kahei · · Score: 5, Funny

    there is no quantity of juice sufficient

    Oh really? I bet they only tried 'reasonable' amounts of juice. They can't be sure unless they try an infinite amount of juice -- or rather, an amount of juice so unfeasibly preposterously gigantic that the monkey is simply nable to comprehend it, so that changes in the juice quantity no longer have any effect. When they use that much juice, I'll take remarks like the above seriously

    Disclaimer: I am only writing this because I am thirsty and like thinking about juice.

    --
    Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
  5. Re:Rationality and expected value by glyph42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Dropping $20 into a nice, juicy retirement savings plan every two weeks is guaranteed to change your life. Take your lottery tickets, and whatever other impulse purchases you can identify, and divert the money into savings. Why bother gambling? You'll thank yourself many times over when you're older.

    --
    Music speeds up when you yawn, but does not change pitch.
  6. origin of war by ch-chuck · · Score: 5, Insightful

    now imagine TWO male monkeys who can't look away from the hindquarters of a female in estrus.

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    try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
  7. fMRI by bcaffo · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's great to see fMRI getting some press, but the article fails to mention some of the important limitations of the technology. The magnitude of the signal is only 1-5% over the noise and comparisons need to be made at thousands of locations. Also only very simple tasks can reasonably be studied. Regardless, the technology has great promise in medical applications. I am currently invovled in a a study where fMRI is accurately distinguishing between patients who are at high risk for AD and controls. As an additional plug, I think quantitative neurology is great area for CS, Math etc types to get involved in.

  8. Cheaper version of this research by rel4x · · Score: 5, Funny

    I can do this research for about $0.
    How many people here enjoy Hustler or Playboy?
    ok, now how many enjoy "Big juice box weekly"?
    What if they added more juice?
    even more?
    Case closed.

    --

    Before you mod me funny, think, perhaps I was insightfully funny?
  9. What to do with this info! by rel4x · · Score: 5, Funny

    Oo! I've thought of what to do with this information. We can start using sex to sell things, like juice! I wonder why no one has thought of it before!

    --

    Before you mod me funny, think, perhaps I was insightfully funny?
  10. Trust? by MisanthropicProgram · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "If we knew what creates trust and could intervene to encourage it, we could do a lot of good for the world," says Camerer.

    No, it would be used to get people to "trust" a corp. or Government, so that they buy more shit or follow mindlessly the politicians. Because, only the corps or gov'ts would have the money to afford such a procedure.

  11. Consciousness Theory by fishing · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Anyone interested in theories of consciousness and how they might relate to artificial neural networks, you may want to check out "Radiant Cool" by Dan Lloyd.
    In this book he uses multi-dimensional scaling analysis of fMRI scans to predict past and future states of the same brain, as well as doing the same thing with artificial networks.
    It then uses the evidence from this research to propose what (to me, at least) is the first really solid explanation for what consciousness may actually "be".
    The book is written in 2 parts... the first one is a detective novel where the main character is a Phenomenologist and in the process of solving a murder finds a theory of consciousness. The 2nd part of the book is a factual appendix describing the work.
    Awesome stuff, and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in neural nets and AI.

  12. love-hate relationship of Science and Media by abde · · Score: 5, Interesting

    articles like this are especially frustrating to MRI physics geeks like me, because there's a delicate balance bwteen wanting the media to help promote science, and watching helplessly as they mangle it into pure science fiction. The BOLD effect by which fMRI observes brain activity is orders of magnitude removed from the sensitivity of indivdual neuron measurements, and as other commentators have pointed out there's a real limit on what you can expect to understand about human thought processes using that tool.

    I've actually started a blog devoted to megnetoic resonance imaging (http://refscan.blogspot.com/ and would like to invite anyone else interested in MRI to visit and comment. Our patron Saint is Magneto :)

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    Don't blame me - I voted for Howard Dean. http://dean2004.blogspot.com
  13. Re:..there is no quantity of juice sufficient.. by Eccles · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Incidentally, this is why it is a wise dating technique, when sitting down at a restaurant, to try to choose the seat that faces the wall, not the one that allows you to ogle the other women...

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    Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.