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Source Engine - In The Belly Of The Beast?

Posted by simoniker on from the jonah-and-whale dept.

Thanks to Half-Life 2 Fallout for its fan-written feature discussing the content of Valve's Source videogame engine, as used for Half-Life 2. The piece explains: "The Source engine is not just a 3D engine (in the sense it's not just a renderer) -- it contains many different modules that are all brought together into one package", and tries to clarify discussion on subjects as diverse as lighting ("Something that has caused confusion in the past is 'dynamic lights' [in the Source engine].... All a light has to be in order for it to be qualified as dynamic is to be able to move and have changeable attributes.... It doesn't mean that it will [necessarily] cast real time shadows like in Doom 3 or Unreal Engine 3.0"), and in-game water ("When Valve say the water is physically simulated, they mean objects have buoyancy. They don't mean the Source engine has fluid dynamics.")

41 comments

  1. AI is "very, very powerful" by lunarscape · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The sequence where the Strider blows up the bridge was unscripted and unexpected by Valve

    That was unscripted??? Wow. Just wow.

    The NPC's will refuse to take stupid orders

    What do you mean you won't walk into that flaming pool of death? I gave you an order!!!

    1. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hey.. take it with a bit of salt.

      the fucking company has lied more than once about their AI's state for hl2.

      still, give us a date that you can keep.. it would be about time!

    2. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by Winterblink · · Score: 4, Interesting
      That was unscripted??? Wow. Just wow.

      Was it really all that impressive, given what else can be said about the AI? Things react to the environment much more in HL2 it seems, so I'm sure the progression of thought from the Strider's perspective went a little something like this:
      1. Me kill humans
      2. Me tall. Bridge in way.
      3. Me kill bridge.
      4. Me kill humans

      Not bad. Not shockingly great, but not bad. :)
      --
      "I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
      -Hoban Washburn
    3. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by The+Ultimate+Fartkno · · Score: 4, Funny



      5. Profit!!

      Assuming, y'know, that he's not doing all that work pro bono. Killer robots have to pay rent, too!

    4. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by inkless1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      it's generally been my expierence that most "unexpected outcomes" are euphemisms for bugs ;)

    5. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 4, Funny

      You mean like "When it's done"?

      Oh yeah, I went there.

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
    6. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by Zorilla · · Score: 5, Funny

      The NPC's will refuse to take stupid orders

      I believe Warcraft already had that feature. You know, the one where you'd try to flank the enemy, but because your troops think your orders are stupid, they instead find a really good shortcut that involves going in head-on single file towards a large number of enemies.

      --

      It would be cool if it didn't suck.
    7. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by MindStalker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but thats still better than it will be released next month. Opps sorry, no it will be released a year from now.

    8. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by Snowmit · · Score: 4, Funny
      No, no, I'm sure it was:
      1. Why, I say, looks like time to go out and hunt humans!
      2. Gadzooks, it seems my height prevents me from getting past this bridge-like structure. I wonder how Molly and the children are faring up north?
      3. There we go, a nice blast took care of that pesky obstacle. Truly, there is much to me said of the satisfaction of a good explosion. The Futursists where right when the said "Art and war are the great manifestations of sensuality; lust is their flower."
      4. Still, I can't help but wonder: what's it all for? It seems my life is this endless meaningless loop of slaughter with no beginning and no end. Why am I here? Well, better get on with the killing.
      --
      I have a lot of opinions about Cyborgs and Architects
    9. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 4, Funny

      Powerful AI? Scripted sequences?

      I can just imagine...

      "But what's my motivation in this battle?"

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
    10. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by dfj225 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While it might not really be a startling reaction from the players point of view, I can imagine being pleasantly surprised if I developed the game and knew that it was not scripted. I mean most people say that games have good AI if they manage to take cover when you try to destroy them, but actually destroying a bridge to hinder the player or doing other actions stop the player from reaching their goals really is unheard of in gaming today (at least any game that I can think of).

      --
      SIGFAULT
    11. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by Soul-Burn666 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      6. Me kill whoever I need to pay rent to.

      --
      ^_^
    12. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by Soul-Burn666 · · Score: 3, Funny

      5. What is this thing that is flying around always misses... it needs a nice name... miss miss.... missle! ... I wonder if it will be friends with me?

      6. ...silence...

      --
      ^_^
    13. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by The+Ultimate+Fartkno · · Score: 4, Funny



      "Grr! Argh! Snarl! Rowwwrrr! Erm... Ah... Dammit! LINE?!"

    14. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by TheAdventurer · · Score: 1

      I think this is an oversimplication. Translating your easy to understant english into workable AI code is the inherent challange of AI in the first place. If all programmers had to do was reach your level of logic, they could design the most complicated AI ever just by saying: 1) do whatever me want For instance, try applying this principle to the 3D engine. You could break down things into something like: "Duh, 3D engines are simple. Just program it to: 1) perform game logic 2) render scene" When in reality, it takes months of work to implement those two "simple" ideas.

    15. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by dzym · · Score: 1

      7. Me call cops.

    16. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by Starsmore · · Score: 1
      "Well, you're just gonna have to figure out what it wants. What is its motivation?"

      "It's a rock monster. It doesn't have motivation!!!"

      --
      "If Common Sense was so common, it wouldn't be such a valued trait."
    17. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, now you try programming the A.I. to respond in such an intelligent way in that "Not shockingly great" sequence.

    18. Re:AI is "very, very powerful" by Winterblink · · Score: 1

      Does it really take that much work? Perhaps in games, but perhaps not in life. When researchers can reproduce the "basic" instinctual behavior of insects (interacting with environment, for instance) with analog electronic components, one has to wonder if we're overthinking artificial intelligence. I'm referring to the guy who first designed small micro-robots using such components and was pretty surprised at the level of basic interactivity they can display. I'm not suggesting games ship with a little block of electronics, just that we might be overthinking a process that shouldn't be.

      Then again, perhaps this is a bit too deep to go into it, after all we are dealing with a game. :)

      --
      "I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
      -Hoban Washburn
  2. Hmmm by Weyland+Yutani · · Score: 1

    This piece is definately intended for the layman, for the somewhat more technically inclined there's a PDF about the actual inner workings of the engine over at the developer's section of ATI ...

    1. Re:Hmmm by Weyland+Yutani · · Score: 5, Informative

      http://www2.ati.com/developer/gdc/D3DTutorial10_Ha lf-Life2_Shading.pdf

    2. Re:Hmmm by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's also the official Valve FAQ for modders over at the VERC Collective.

      One interesting thing is that it uses a lot of similar technology and concepts to the original Half-Life engine, only with another five and a half years of development. It sounds like I'll be right at home. :-)

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
    3. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Link to the PDF is broken there, n00b

    4. Re:Hmmm by Allanon01 · · Score: 1

      For the somewhat more technically inclined there's the source code for the engine floating around the Internet. :)

  3. How did they get the information? by Zarks · · Score: 1

    Since it is 'fan written' where did they get all this information on source from? There's not a lot of detailed info but there's quite a lot I haven't seen before.

    Could this be something do with a certain hack?

    Or am I just paranoid? - probably

    1. Re:How did they get the information? by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 1

      There's not a lot of detailed info but there's quite a lot I haven't seen before.

      Valve have said quite a lot about the capabilities of the engine (see the VERC link above) - I was a bit suspicious about this article when I first saw it a few days ago, but on closer inspection it looks like someone's read a few things about the capabilities and trundled off in their own imagination.

      It's not a bad article, but it doesn't look like it's been written by someone particularly familiar with the internals of 3D game engines in general, let alone Source in particular...

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
  4. No fluid dynamics in "simulated water" by PhysicsGenius · · Score: 4, Funny

    That's great. Look for my upcoming release to "Totally Real Interactive Virtual Fighter" where "interactive" means when you press the one button the big on-screen square hops over the monster sprite. All, when I say "immersive 3D technology" I mean that every pixel has an X and Y position and you are seated a certain distance Z from the display.

    1. Re:No fluid dynamics in "simulated water" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus god you're a faggot.

  5. Unscripted... by th1ckasabr1ck · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When the HL2 source was leaked, it became evident that many of the things Valve claimed were not scripted actually were. Keep that in mind and take this with a grain or two.

    1. Re:Unscripted... by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I might as well copy-and-paste from a comment I posted a few weeks ago. I can't be arsed writing another detailed criticism of all these 'scripting' allegations...

      "Then there are claims of 'scripting' in the leaked demos. Believe it or not, some things have to be scripted. Decent AI might get a simulated soldier to behave realistically and evade or attack the player at appropriate moments, but higher-order behaviours (like, say, breaking a door open) need to be scripted. It would be impressive for a human player to instantaneously figure out all the interactive aspects of a map, let alone a computer-controlled enemy. The scripting for such complex behaviours needs a lot of work to take account of many different possiblities, and it's obvious that Valve didn't include all of them in the demonstration map. But it's not as if the whole lot was faked, like the E3 2000 Halo demonstration...

      "I've done a bunch of single-player mapping for Half-Life. One of the hardest things is the scripting - not the obvious, scripted sequence stuff, but the behind-the-scenes mechanics which makes the world come alive. AI works for the moment, while scripting is needed to set the scene, and to make the enemies more than simplistic automata. AI drives the scripting, and scripting drives the AI."

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
    2. Re:Unscripted... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      some things HAVING TO BE scripted has nothing to do with facts that things valve said weren't scripted were scripted.

      that's like saying "this game doesn't just spawn enemies around the player, it's a full living world" and then when you play the game you go "WTF?" when the world is just one room after another of fancy graphics AND enemies that get spawned right in front of your eyes after you enter the room.

      it's just total bullshitting, like saying that the game is ready in a month when in fact it needs so much work they can't get it out in a fucking year.

      valve has gotten so much forgiven already for making half-life 1 an excellent game, after that they haven't really delivered anything except hype.

    3. Re:Unscripted... by Zed2K · · Score: 1

      " like saying that the game is ready in a month when in fact it needs so much work they can't get it out in a fucking year."

      So basically your just pissed off that you don't have a new computer game to play and you are going to have to spend your summer vacation in some other way?

      Oh darn. Sucks to be you.

    4. Re:Unscripted... by dfj225 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Now I didn't view the HL2 at all and haven't compared what they said was not scripted to what actually was, so I am just taking a guess here as to what they may mean. Perhaps when they say that things weren't scripted they mean that the NPC's reaction to the situation wasn't scripted. For instance, there might be a script to open a door, but it is the NPC's choice as to what action is better: opening the door or simply trying to shoot through a window or other opening. Also, for the scene when the strider blows up the bridge perhaps exploding the bridge is a scripted action, but the choice to do so might not be. For instance, the strider's AI might have noticed that the player was most likely heading for a goal on the other side of the bridge and the best way to slow the player down was to destroy the bridge, this contrasts to the typical AI response of just blasting away at the character (which may be the best course of action depending on the situation). While the animation of the bridge being destroyed might have been scripted it is possible that the characters reaction in the sitution was decided on the fly and not something like this: if character passes certain point, destroy bridge.

      --
      SIGFAULT
    5. Re:Unscripted... by aliens · · Score: 2, Interesting

      He might have been one of those people who got sucked into upgrading last year with the promise of HL2 a month away.

      Not that what they upgraded to is suddenly bad hardware. But for the money he spent last year he could be getting an X800 or 6800 GPU now.

      He also might be pissed if he was somehow involved in business with Valve. Unless they told ATI that the game was in fact going to need another year, and ATI went ahead with the HL2 coupon anyway, I'd be pissed if I was ATI.

      --
      -- taking over the world, we are.
    6. Re:Unscripted... by Zed2K · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Anyone that upgrades their computer for a particular game BEFORE the game is actually on the shelves is an idiot.

      Why would ATI be pissed? They sold a ton of cards they could care less what they are used for as long as they sell their product.

  6. Obligatory Penny Arcade by Landaras · · Score: 1

    The NPC's will refuse to take stupid orders

    What do you mean you won't walk into that flaming pool of death? I gave you an order!!!

    Obligatory Penny Arcade

    --
    My legal education, in nifty podcast format
  7. Explanation needed? by Fiz+Ocelot · · Score: 1
    Maybe I'm just out of the loop, but in the article he says:

    "We can only hope that it's not too long before Valve implements it into Source so the in game bouncy castle is no longer a dream but a reality."

    I'm not sure what this "bouncy castle" is, but is it kinda like castle anthrax? ;)

    1. Re:Explanation needed? by megan_of_wutai · · Score: 2, Funny

      Children's (usually) amusement at a fair, gala or similar, non-porous inflated structure usually shaped like a castle, constantly kept inflated by a generator at the back.

      You jump on it and bounce, have to take your shoes off first ;).

    2. Re:Explanation needed? by megan_of_wutai · · Score: 1

      Hey, ask a stupid question ;) or... any question at all.