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On Microsoft's Embedded DevCon Keynote
An anonymous reader writes "WindowsForDevices reports on the keynote talk at Microsoft's Windows Embedded DevCon (developer conference) taking place this week in San Diego. The story includes some interesting comments and highlights from the talk. Don't miss the cool bit about the ARM7-based 'SPOT' development platform that runs a tiny version of the .NET Compact Framework -- Microsoft is demoing a robot that's run by SPOT. There's also a pointer to an online video demo of a project to create a digital picture frame using Win CE."
I can't wait to buy my copy of WinCE so that I can build a picture frame out of it, seeing that my only other options are:
1) Buy one at a store for $2
2) Build the same damn thing with Linux for FREE!!!!!1
Believe me, nobody else looks forward to running virus patches on his fucking Picture Frame than I do!
M$ is demoing a robot that's run by SPOT. See SPOT run. Run SPOT, run!
Blue Screen of Death Gallery
The more you know, the less you understand.
Line breaks are for pussies =/
In my opinion Windows XP Embedded is the largest boondogle I've ever come across.
Is there a way to keep these boxes(cancer) secure?
"think of it as evolution in action"
Wow, now there are 2 things that Windows is actually good for: playing solitare, and running digital picture frames!
"Microsoft's Embedded DevCon Keynote"
Should be
"Microsoft's 'In Bed With Donkey Kong' Note."
I work for a company that does Point of Sale software and we looked at Windows CE. The company that built some of our hardware (I won't give their name, let's just say its Not Columbia Records) sent us a CE image and a little boot utility that copied the image into memory off the hard disk and kicked it off. It booted up okay, and reminded me of a really bad version of Windows 95. (Heck, Windows 95 is a bad version of Windows 95, but this was worse). Particularly amusing was that apparently it had been expected to be used with flash memory rather than a real hard disk, so copying files took a long time as there was no head movement optimization.
The disk goes Clcklklklklklklklklklklklklklk for about 3 minutes to copy the 6 MB image.
Also, if there were bad sectors on the drive, it would corrupt the root directory and you'd have to reformat the drive and start over. This was especially bad for us as most of the hard disks on our customer's systems are inches away from a cash drawer that flies open then gets slammed shut constantly.
Needless to say, the customer we were evaluating this for is still running MS-DOS.
Unknown host pong.
Looks like there will be more and more devices like ATM's getting hit with the latest virus. I can see it now 5 killed due to exploit in Windows Automotive breaking system. Your brakes have been updated. You must restart for them to work.
Windows + .Net for a simple picture frame ?
...
wtf ? do they not teach the concept of KISS in school anymore ?
I think the likes of TRON will be around for quite sometime
Sunny Dubey
Line breaks are for pussies =/
You
take
that
back
!
I don't have any WinCE experience(VXworks, custom schedulers, and Integrity mostly), but one of my coworkers, whose opinion I generally respect uses CE for all his moonlighting contract jobs and he calls it rocksolid, easy to use, etc. etc. He's got lots of embedded experience, mostly safety critical, and he considers it a truly useful tool.
I can't ignore it outright, because he really does know what he's doing, he's written his own schedulers and memory managers for projects for 8051s and whatnot, so he's not just saying "oh, this looks easy I'll use this". But I'm also hesitant to believe that M$ has made something reliable enough to run embedded hard real-time.
Anyone want to enlighten me further?
refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
Now all it needs is wireless capability and we can transmit photos from the PC in minutes!
When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up... reading.-Henny Youngman
The ability to load pictures onto a digital frame, then have them stolen by script kiddies, so that the picture of me and my friends shows up on every p2p network. w00t. Though you have to admit "My picture frame has a virus" sounds funny.
"Embedded"? Isn't that kinda a joke in itself?
1) Term for a bug report is now "you missed a spot" report.
2) Name was inspired by Microsoft's spotty security record.
3) Virus writers are now hard at work at viruses that hit the SPOT.
4) Geeks everywhere will deny the spot even exists.
5) Locomotives will adapt this embedded technology through the TrainSPOTting initiative.
6) The MONO folks will be creating a GNOME-based port. No word yet on what they'll call it but rumor has it that it'll start with a "G"
Could the jukebox in this picture possibly be the one on this site?
bundaegi is good for you
Microsoft. Robots...Hmmm...
Now I'll just WinCE as my karma vaporizes!
But seriously, the SPOT concept is interesting, maybe a bit too heavyweight for my liking, but I like programming microcontrollers in assembly, maybe I'm just weird.
I've discovered a remarkable proof, but this margin is too small to contain it...
Robots running Windows?
You could have put a warning, now we know the secret behind I, Robot.
I always wondered why Gates thinks certain technologies and products are going to be big. Tablet PCs for example while is a great concept, it is severly limited by todays technology (Poor handwriting reconition, short battery life, etc). And yet, Gates has put his money down on it 3 times (Pen Services for DOS, Pen Services for Windows 95, Windows XP Tablet Edition). Compare him to Steve Jobs, who has had good sucess since he has returned to Apple (iPod, iTunes, iPod Mini, Airport Express/Extreme and iMac) Its probably just their philosophies.
Microsoft is demoing a robot that's run by SPOT.
Wow! That's some cutting edge stuff. Thank Bill we have Windows CE.
What? What's that you say? We've already done robots? Ah. *ahem*
There's also a pointer to an online video demo of a project to create a digital picture frame using Win CE.
Now there you go! Some real future tech. A picture...that hangs on the wall....that changes! Fantastic!
What? They've already done that too? Without CE? You mean that's possible? *ahem*
Ok, nevermind then.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
See Jane try to run Windows Update.
See Dick reboot SPOT.
Bad SPOT.
Well I dunno but it's been 10 years that people been doing Windows Jokes (there was no point doing jokes about Windows 386, or even win 3.1, that was pure cruelty) and no one, even the like of Stallman and other big heads ever made the link between Microsoft (especialy the Clippy years) and The Sirius Cybernetics Corporation's very easy to use products. Oh please.
And now you are asking me what a Microsoft Robot would be like? Me who for the last ten years have been thinking about it? Me with the brain the size of planet... You wanna know what joy will MS robot bring?
Oh look!!! I just have this pain in my lower diodes. Oh well it's been nice to talk to you. I'm so depressed.
And me with a brain the size of...
You had better have a good firewall in your garage for those times when your car says to you we're home, would you like me to go online and fetch your calendar updates?
It's one thing for an unfirewalled windoze 98 box to be hacked and compromised by a remote attacker. It's quite another to have your vehicle compromised unbeknownst to you--
I don't think I want my car "crashing" its OS while I'm at the wheel, unrelated to any driving choices/mistakes I may have made. I can see it now--
"Honest Officer! I think my car must have caught the Download.Ject virus this morning!" I didn't drive into that bridge abutment on my own! Honest!!" The officer replies--
"Sir, didn't you listen to the latest Microsoft warning? You should never use your steering wheel / joystick to surf to 'unsafe' websites with IE! Now I have to write you a Stupid-Ticket."
But seriously...
How concerned are other developers about MS style code being let loose in a critical system like an automobile? I mean, running a PDA or a desktop printer is one thing. When they crash, people aren't so likely to DIE! A malfunctioning four ton Ford Excursion, on the other hand, is something I'd really rather not encounter.
Stupid binary clock written for CF.net. It was rather fun / simple to program simple stuff for it, I think it would be significantly less fun if one had to program a real app for it. The source code has a bunch of code for checking the status of power, etc, so you might find it helpful if you are designing an app like that.
Install cabs
Source
That said, my palm m105 was a lot more stable than my current pocket pc, which is a toshiba.
Toshiba pocket pc support sucks ass by the way, AVOID BUYING TOSHIBA PDAS AT ALL COSTS!!
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Anything like this?
Built with vxWorks, I believe. Just saw one today at the local Coffee Bean. Cool toy, though I wouldn't be likely to shell out any $$ for it ...
Soylent Green is peoplicious!
Anyone up for a round of Corporate Communism?
Let's "bring people together."
It's communal too. No one actually owns it, but the bottle of Vodka is at the TOP.
I agree, they are crapolo, not even a mobilepc2003 update for e740 which they could do but wont so they sell more new e750s.
Though some people now say PDAs are dieing since new mobiles have PDA features/video/cam/notes etc... memory cards.... all in an easier to hold package.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
a secret government white-collar jobs program for U.S. developers.
My company was looking some embedded hardware with some specific capabilities. It took a while, but last year the hardware arrived. Since I was the first user, I was offered the choice of WinCE or Linux. I personally prefer to develop under Linux, but in this case I thought it was best to go with whichever one the hardware manufacturer was most comfortable with, and that was CE.
They supplied prototype hardware. This was just the CPU manufacturers reference design, which they laid up and hand soldered. A contractor recommended by Microsoft then produced a "basic" CE image, and we were away. So far so good. The next step was design and delivery of produce production boards. These were just the reference design with unwanted bits removed, and the form factor adjusted accordingly. Again, they put a "basic" CE image on it, and it all worked.
The final step was to put the "real" CE image on the device. The major differences between this and the basic seemed to me to be be little details, like persisting the registry to flash, making the CF card work, making the buttons work, making USB work with 2.0 devices, making power off work and so on. The job went to the same Microsoft contractor, who promised delivery in a week or so.
That was in January. Lots of phone calls later, and me finally threating to cancel the deal forced them (the manufacturer) to take drastic steps: they made the contractor's staff work in their offices, so they could monitor the work being done and the progress being made.
That was two months ago. Meanwhile the situation was explained to Microsoft, but they insisted the if their nominated contractor couldn't get CE going nobody could.
More threats from me, and the manufacturer contacted another manufacturer in Germany who was using CE with the same reference design. They found who did their CE image, and ask them to do the same job. That was a month ago. Nobody has delivered. Nobody has raised any queries over the hardware design. And I, an embedded programmer by trade, and sitting here mystified by how hard it appears to be to get CE to go.
At the same time I have written my own apps to run on this thing. It is written in C# (which is what Microsoft recommended). I prefer Java as it runs well under Linux - but Microsoft does not supply a Java VM for CE - surprise, surprise! The back end of these apps (the server part) runs on Linux. So I had to make C# run under Linux. I choose PNet (as opposed to Mono) for reasons I won't discuss here.
The contrast between the two efforts could not be more stark. Microsoft CE.Net mostly worked from the start, although it wasn't obvious how to do some things and it did have one of two bugs. Moving beyond that point - figuring out how things work, and fixing the bugs ranged from very hard to impossible - for all the usual reasons. Microsoft's documentation was good, but when it fell short there is no backup - no source, no helpful online community, and no one willing to fix bugs. Granted I didn't go looking for someone looking to do these things for money.
PNet, in contrast, didn't work well when I first got it. It took me a day just to figure out how to make the thing go. But progress after that was rapid. I found bugs, I fixed them and posted the patches. Not a lot of doco other than the source, but if I got stuck I asked what seems to be a thriving and friendly online community.
It goes without saying that the PNet stuff is now rock solid for me. The Microsoft stuff is about where it was when we first started - very close but no cigar, and it seems no one has any idea how to make it progress beyond that.
I now wonder if this experience is atypical, or if I just made the wrong choice at the beginning. I am sure I would of have got Linux going by now - at the cost of a lot more effort on my part. But a little voice inside my head keeps saying - if it is this hard to make CE go, why does everybody keep using it?
I don't want to have my computer-controlled seats, heater, stereo, or whatever else going tango uniform just because the software developers mad an inappropriate choice.
Well, that update was a major bitching point for many people - especially since they promised it, and then renegged.
I had a warranty on my e335 and when it broke, Office Despot sent me an e450 - only caveat, broken charger (from a brand new unit), and toshiba support didn't have any chargers or other parts (cradle, etc) for the e4xx or e800 in stock - and don't expect to for another MONTH.
The damn supervisor pretty much hung up on me after saying there was nothing he could do. It's nice that e335 charger works for it, but if it didn't I'd be SOL.
I hate that company sooo much.
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Don't miss the cool bit
Cool bit at a Microsoft conf is an oxymoron, little one.
If you think otherwise, you're in serious need of a lobotomy.
I've been an embedded developer working on WinCE and PPC OS/Drivers for that past 2 years. WinCE is basically crap. The build times for the OS are 20mins+, even on a P4 2.8. The release directory has over 1Gb of data (I kid you not!), which eventually gets thrown away or squished down to about 30Mb. Actually working with WinCE is a pain, when stuff works it is great, very little setup and it just goes. When something breaks you struggle through documentation that is inadequate or plain wrong. Watching it on a debugger is no help either, because you just watch your program counter disappear down a black box of MS binary only assembly, and die somewhere.
I have to agree with another poster above, MS gets you maybe 60-80% of the way there fast and painlessly, the rest is a total nightmare. OSS stuff is often painful for the first couple of days, but once you grok the code you can do what you like without too many issues.
Given that my iPaq crashes at least once a day, I'm bound to choose Windows for embedded applications, aren't I?
Not.
Wow. That looks *way* longer than it should be.
.NET, but in VB 6 you can have control arrays, which would avoid you all those pages of setting every control by hand.
I'm not familiar with
And even if arrays aren't possible for some strange reason, couldn't you just have made a function that returns an image object? Say, in VB 6 this would have been along the lines of:
Public Function GetImage(n as Long) as Image
Select Case n
Case 1: Set GetImage = Image1
Case 2: Set GetImage = Image2
' etc
End Select
End Function
Then you can avoid all this unholy mess you're making there.
It's kind of neat that Microsoft finally have something available for MMU-less devices too.
Sure it wasnt Embedded NT, since I've heard something that resembles it called BassPoiNT in the past that runs that OS on it. BTW, NCR has deep business related roots with IBM so you will get strange hardware at this level of money - that's why they're now a "solutions company". They still make PC's, but most of them arent PC-4/Decision Mate V weirdness anymore(the cards go on the inside these days if you arent doing laptops) for the ones us mere mortals can get somewhere close to new.
"Forget the engineers." -Carly Fiorina, briber of MIT Technology Review.
Ive been thinking, I wonder how hard it would be to take an old laptop's LCD panel out of the laptop and make it into a Digital Picture Frame?
I hear its easy...
hehe, yeah, I was bored and recall pasting a lot and changing a couple things.
I think some alcohol and a bet / piss off professor X with 500,000 case statements was involved.
I made another version using just ifs or something - I'm not sure what happened to it.
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Great, two completely wrong posts get modded "4 - Insightful". Figures.
CE can do hard and soft real-time. Don't take my word for it - take Dedicated Systems Experts' word for it (remember, we're talking 3.0/4.x/5.0 here, not 2.0 - huge difference), or OMAC (via WindowsForDevices).
You are nobody, both sources are respected, cross-vendor, cross-platform experts.