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Zinc Whiskers Cripple Colorado's Computers

Mr. Christmas Lights writes "While zinc whiskers, small metallic fibers which grow on surfaces that have been electroplated with zinc, aren't a problem for Christmas lights, they can cause serious problems for computers. The Denver Post reports how they caused computer outages for the last three weeks in the Colorado secretary of state's office. This basically halted business and elections document filings. Zinc whiskers are becoming more of a problem as computers electronics get smaller. NASA has a good reference site which includes a interesting PDF summary paper complete with pictures. /.'ers with computer rooms might want to check this out."

63 of 276 comments (clear)

  1. Wow! by MikeXpop · · Score: 3, Funny

    Shocking! /sorry, couldn't resist.

    --
    Etiquette is etiquette. He kills his mother but he can't wear grey trousers.
    1. Re:WOW! by shepd · · Score: 3, Informative

      They are only blocking slashdot referrers.

      IE-ers can drag the link to their address bar.

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
  2. You can clean them off... by Three+Headed+Man · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...with a magnet!

    --
    I'm probably at the karma cap. Mod up a funny troll instead, it lightens the mood :)
    1. Re:You can clean them off... by filledwithloathing · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That is a myth. "Magnetic fields and magnetic storage media do mix, as long as the field isn't really amazingly strong. The field has to be really strong, because it has to exceed the coercivity of the magnetic coating on the storage device. Hard drive platters have a coercivity of a few thousand Oersteds, which means a field of the same number of Gauss is needed to demagnetise them. The ferrite magnet on a computer's PC speaker, assuming it's not shielded, will have a surface field strength of only about a thousand Gauss, so it won't endanger hard drive data even if the drive's right next to it. Even 10,000 Gauss rare earth magnets can't wipe a hard drive if they're not sitting on top of it."

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  3. I WISH THERE WAS NO ZINC! by stratjakt · · Score: 5, Funny

    Zinccccccc Zinnnccccc! Oh my god what have I done!

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  4. More work to do... by calags · · Score: 5, Funny

    I guess we have to shave all zinc cats before we let them into the building.

    --
    Never attribute to stupidity what can be construed as a monopoly preservation tactic.
  5. Re:Absolutely no way by McCarrum · · Score: 5, Interesting

    (rolls eyes)

    Where I used to work, we had this issue - in our case they grew from the cheap computer floor panels in the room. The case was so bad, you could see them in direct sunlight, and the flowed in the breeze like grass.

    We had no choice but to go through cleaning, as the underfloor was about to be used for blowing air to new systems, without it, the zinc whiskers would blow free and cause hell on all our systems. As it was, three systems failed in the week after the clean. We don't want to think what would have happened if we didn't clean it.

    It's not bullshit. Get over it. Interestingly, there are very few people who know of this issue, but knowledge is spreading.

  6. I RTFA and it's not the computers, it's the floor! by the_rajah · · Score: 5, Informative

    The metal frames for the raised floor are where the zinc whiskers are coming from. They get sucked into the power supplies and short them out.

    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain

    --


    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
  7. we just finished replacing our Data Center's floor by jeremyol · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We are in the final streach for replacing the entire datacenter floor where I work because of zinc Whiskers. We had the underfloor area cleaned for the new A/C that blows from the floor up. We promptly lost 11 power supplies and the total count is up over 20 now. We did verify the presents of zinc whiskers in the dead powersupplies thanks to the onsite electron microscope.
    Thankfully the high temperature never got above 85 degrees so the old A/C was able to keep up.

  8. It's ... by ngdbsdmn · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... amazinc.

  9. Google cache by akgoatley · · Score: 3, Informative
    --
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    Incoming mod-bombing for having a different viewpoint, 2 o'clock! Heads up!
  10. Re:I RTFA and it's not the computers, it's the flo by McCarrum · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yup.

    And the metal that the whiskers come from, have been used for computer room floor tiles, racks, and even (shudder) PSU cases.

    Now that's scarey.

  11. What about conformal coating? by winkydink · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I thought almost all quality electronic devices have a conformal coating (non-conducting polymer) applied to PCBs? Colorado must be buying el-cheapo crap. Remember, you get what you pay for.

    --

    "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

    1. Re:What about conformal coating? by SagSaw · · Score: 2, Informative

      I thought almost all quality electronic devices have a conformal coating (non-conducting polymer) applied to PCBs?

      Generally, no. Conformal coating is normally only used on circuit boards which will be exposed to extreamly harsh conditions. Unless the designers expect the circuit board to come into contact with liquids or corrosive gasses during typical use, the circuit board will not be conformally coated.

      --
      Come test your mettle in the world of Alter Aeon!
    2. Re:What about conformal coating? by Animats · · Score: 5, Informative
      I wish. Automotive electronic units are routinely conformal coated, but most consumer devices are not. Many blank boards have a masked insulating layer on top, but that's different than a conformal coat. A conformal coat is applied after the parts are mounted, so the whole board becomes a sealed unit.

      You can conformal-coat boards yourself, using Fine-L-Kote spray. We use this stuff on the Overbot.

      It's a flammable, toxic chemical mixture until it dries; you need gloves, goggles, a respirator mask, and proper flammable liquid storage. Cover connectors with masking tape before spraying. It's a clear coat, but glows in UV, so you can check for missed spots.

    3. Re:What about conformal coating? by winkydink · · Score: 2, Informative

      I like Humiseal, myself.

      --

      "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

  12. Maybe not zinc whiskers, but tin whiskers exist by Zarquon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And are a problem with the new lead free processes.. especially as lead spacing decreases, and the euro lead-free requirement kicks in.

    Agere wrote a good article in Analog Zone, available at http://www.analogzone.com/grnt0216.pdf. It has a good micrograph showing the problem.

    --
    "'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
  13. Hospital ORs have problems with Zinc whiskers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work in a large midwest hospital, and we've got a constant issue with Zinc whiskers in our network jacks in operating rooms. Supposedly the origin is the cleaning solutions that they use for the floor.

    1. Re:Hospital ORs have problems with Zinc whiskers by Artifakt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The preferred Zinc compound for mineral supplements is usually Zinc Picolinate, which is the form most readily metabolized by humans. Zinc Oxide is frequently the form used in mixed multi-vitamin and mineral tablets, but some nutritionists argue that the manufacturers are cutting corners to save a few cents there.
      Zinc Oxide is also absorbed very, very slowly through the skin (as when used in sunblock cremes, so that most of the sunblock's Zinc is washed off instead of entering the body). Pure Zinc metal is not nearly as reactive as sodium or calcium, so it really isn't very toxic compared to them. People eat pennies frequently (4 year old people that is), with few harmful effects, although pennies are mostly zinc with a copper surface.
      For comparison, a significant amount of pure sodium won't just give you chemical poisoning, it will oxidize so rapidly with contact with air or water, and liberate so much heat in the process, that the burns you would get from handling or swallowing it would probably kill you as fast as the toxicity, or even quicker.
      Yes, Zinc metal fiber in a hospital environment isn't nearly what I would call perfectly safe. Pennies usually pass before too much dissolves, and getting a lot of metal fibers inside a surgical incision before closing is not such a benign environment. Still, there are a lot worse possibilities for substances to get in a wound.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  14. Re:Absolutely no way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    I call FUD on your FUD call. There are many documented instances where metal shavings stopped computers.
    1. pacemaker recall.
    2. F-15 Radar. Google for B. Nordall's port in Aviation Week and Space Technology
    3. Patriot Missile II (Anoplate, Suspected tin whisker related problems, Fall 2000)
    4. Nuclear Utilities Tin plated contact support arms on relays grew tin whiskers causing a resistive shunt path.
    5. Rocket motor starting


    But I could google on and on. Hey, poster (NigritudeUltramarine). Care to explain your nickname? Was it intended to offend? I suspect it's just a trash /. account to get the first +1 so your troll gets a +5 right quick.
  15. HP seems to think it's an issue? by greyfox199 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We have 3 rooms where I work that house our servers. We are migrating some stuff over to an HP-UX system running oracle. When we had some HP representatives come over to our area to check out the place we intended to house the HP servers, they insisted that zinc whiskers could potentially be very damaging and that we make sure our rooms were clean and free of zinc whiskers (not that our rooms were particularly dirty). I always wondered how legitimate their claims were.

  16. Zinc Whiskers by Zinc+Whiskers · · Score: 2, Funny

    Zinc Whiskers? Hey, they stole my username!

    Ok, no they didn't.

  17. Re:Absolutely no way by NigritudeUltramarine · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It's not bullshit. Get over it. Interestingly, there are very few people who know of this issue, but knowledge is spreading.
    There are tens of thousands of data centers in operation in the United States, and likely an order of magnitude above that worldwide.

    In each, often hundreds (or even thousands) of computers are consolidated in one room.

    You simply cannot convince me that this is a real problem that we need to worry about. Yes, OBVIOUSLY you don't start pouring out bags of metal filings into your ventilation system. We already KNEW that. But not buying anything made from zinc? No way. We'd have data centers shutting down all over the place, if as Rich Hill says, "Metal on floor panels and even in computer cases can secrete zinc crystals over time."

    The state said, "The outages ... highlight why the state's various websites should be brought under one authority." Huh? What? The answer is that they needed some excuse, they found Data Clean, and they got it. I would bet top dollar that if an indepdendent team were brought in, an entirely unrelated cause would be found.
  18. Re:any one hear of dusting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Dusting, god no. The last thing you want to do is get these fuckers airborne, that's when they start to cause problems. They get sucked into a tower or rack by the air convection, and wind up settling into places they shouldn't. Next thing you know, you have equipment shorting out.

    Forget the duster. Cleaning will probably involve mineral oil, or some other decently viscous but harmless liquid, being sloughed across the floor, sponged up, then washed away using conventional cleaners. The oil would weigh down the zinc whiskers to the point that they couldn't get into the air and cause problems.

  19. its a new BOFH excuse for the rolodex by ErichTheWebGuy · · Score: 4, Funny


    #931654: "Sorry, our computers seem to be growing metallic whiskers. What did you say your username was? bwahahahahaha"

    --
    bash: rtfm: command not found
  20. I don't know what it's called... by teamhasnoi · · Score: 2, Interesting
    but old Hammond organs get a greenish-white 'film' or coating on the metallic chassis and parts. Humidity seems to make it worse.

    My A-100's chorus/vibrato likes to go on summer vacation when it gets humid in the house, but works fine during the winter. Just thought I'd throw that in - I think the stuff is zinc-plated...

    1. Re:I don't know what it's called... by ErichTheWebGuy · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's called oxidation.

      --
      bash: rtfm: command not found
  21. Re:Absolutely no way by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I so agree with you.

    back in college I paid my way as a maintaince guy at a foundry. we had rackmount Pc's that would have almost 1/4 inch of metal/sand dust on the motherboards and the computers were STILL working.

    Cince then I have worked as a freelance consultant and specalist for many different companies that certianly do not have their computers in a "clean room" (machine shops for the best example) and they never EVER have these problems and they are exposed to nasty air + metal. The worst was a water filtration plant I worked at for 7 years where a workstation for monitoring the vats of hydro-flouro-sisicilic acid ( what they put in your water to add flouride) a product that is so corrosive that it eat's through the rubber lined fiberglass tanks within 3 years had, just by the amount released in the air during tank inspections, had eaten almost all the legs off the surface mount chips on the motherboard and it was STILL operating.

    Maybe some really REALLY old mainfraime computers might see the problem in a 20-30 year lifespan that the article suggests, but even the PDP-11 I saw back in college that was retired in the basement but still maintained operating by students did not have any problems like this.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  22. Re:Absolutely no way by Smidge204 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Zinc whiskers are quite real, and they can pose a hazard. The reason you don't see data centers around the world having this problem has many aspects, some of which I can think of include:

    -Too new. It takes years for these whiskers to grow to any length (1mm/year), and it may take years before it even starts to happen.

    -Only happens to electroplated surfaces. Dip galvanized objects (Like electrical boxes and bolts and such) don't seem prone to this effect.

    -Newer machines are more vulnerable with their more delicate circuits and smaller, tighter tracings and pins. A data center with older machines might be all but immune to it simply because the equipment is old and robust enough.

    High taffic areas they are likely to get stomped on/eroded away long before they pose a problem. So you would have to have a situation where you have a spot like under a table, where you have objects electroplated with zinc sitting undisturbed for a long time, then get disturbed. Then you would have to be unlucky enough to disturb them and get it into the air.

    Ironically, there are wood based floors used in data ceneters with steel reinforcing on the back of the tiles that are zinc-electroplated (thus being essentially undisturbed for years). So if a fairly old data center, that happens to have the right (wrong?) type of flooring, undergoes an upgrade or reorganization... well that might do it.

    Now if these guys ARE just using it as an excuse, that's another story. But that doesn't make the problem any less real.
    =Smidge=

  23. according to the article... by zogger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...small compact computer designs get these whiskers easier. I don't doubt it happens, but where are all the millions of laptops shorted out then, or the mini itx machines,game machines, etc?

    Is there something else here causing whiskers to grow some places and not in others, even though both have zinc?

    1. Re:according to the article... by servognome · · Score: 2, Informative

      These whiskers take time to grow and are fragile, you would need to have a situation where the equipment is undisturbed for a period of time, this allows the whiskers to grow, then when there is a disturbance (ie construction vibration)they break off and can cause shorts. I don't think most people leave their computer undisturbed for long periods of time
      dendrite growth has a different mechanism can also have similar consequences. This happens in things like old electrical systems, where you can have moisture with high current.

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  24. another site with pictures by danlor · · Score: 4, Informative

    and a narative
    Access Floors

  25. And Sea-Water too. by OceanWave · · Score: 5, Informative

    I know I speak against my own name, here. But:

    Living by the sea, especially with the high humidity that comes with it...and the salt...can give your more than just a few zinc whiskers on the PC board.

    Salt oxidation--depending on how long the windows are open--can really eat a PC in two years or less; never mind the quality of the MB.

    Sea salt is hydrophilic. If it accumulates on something, episodes of high humidity will attract moisture from the air, and add the basis for typical corrosive effects. I have had containers with dry sea salt, which have pulled moisture out of the air on their own.

    (Most acids need water...so does salt to release it's own ions, which can have a corrsive effect similar to an acid on metallic equipment...usually involving the non-metal in the salt. Sea salt has lots of chlorine, a very strong oxidizing agent.)

  26. Tiny wires? by MoriarGryphon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If these things are so small as to require an electron microscope to see, why arn't they simply vaporized/melted as soon as they find themselves shoved between two (relativly) massive wires?

    You'd think that a microscopic piece of zinc would go before a macroscopic fuse/chunk of copper/etc. And since it's alot of single pieces blown around, it's not like several million are all going to do it at exactly the same time.

    I've melted zinc, and it's pretty snappy, (Pennies after 1982 are mostly Zinc. When you melt them, you get a cool copper-skin effect going on.), but with the same torch ($15 propane torch) I was unable to even visibly affect the copper.

  27. Re:I RTFA and it's not the computers, it's the flo by SuperBanana · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The metal frames for the raised floor are where the zinc whiskers are coming from. They get sucked into the power supplies and short them out.

    I'd be a lot more inclined to believe the "whiskers" are coming from movement of the tiles when people walk across them(they do shift, as does the frame slightly) and not some "growing whiskers" BS.

    Furthermore, the problem is easily solved via any/combination of these:

    • Using the floor for return only(ie, suction) and using good air filters in the A/C units
    • Using ducted A/C under the floor if you must do supply via the floor
    • Regular maintenance, ie blowing the dust out of power supplies and such, combined with some sort of vacuum to collect the dust you raise
    • Using filters in equipment itself
    • Wiping all surfaces down with swiffer-ish cloths on a regular basis, ie dusting the place.

    Furthermore, if the little buggers are metallic, why don't you just install a few small but powerful magnets in various ducts? A metal grate made up with a set of magnetic rods would probably work like a swell charm, and only require periodic cleaning...

  28. sweet! by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Funny

    I work tech support. I can't wait to start using this as an explanation of all sorts of things:

    Customer: When I go on mah Innernet, I get this error 'bout id not bein' displayed.

    Me: Sir, it looks like you've fallen victom to Zink Wiskers. No sir, you don't need to get rid of your cats.

    --
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  29. Re:protecting electronics? by Tony-A · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I suppose in the mean time we'll have to do our own safeguarding if we are in a risky area.

    Hmmmm, seems like if you wanted to grow something like zink whiskers, you'd want a nice stable environment, free of foreign contaminants, and time, lots of time. From this standpoint, a dusty garage is a safer environment than a carefully controlled data center. Problems with monocultures.

  30. Re:Absolutely no way by shostiru · · Score: 5, Informative
    You simply cannot convince me that this is a real problem that we need to worry about.

    and therein lies the problem: you just asserted that this is an item of faith for you, not reason; facts be damned, you cannot be convinced.

    Never mind that there are several companies who do raised subfloors who've been addressing this problem for some time. They're all peddling snake oil, and NASA is helping them do it.

    Never mind that Zn whiskers grow slowly, Zn-electroplated subfloor panels in data centers aren't that old, and PC board density has been increasing. Or that they only occur on electroplated zinc, and only grow long enough to be problematic in very low traffic areas. Nope, must be bogus.

    Never mind that hospitals are affected as well and take this seriously. Or that the condition is well known among electroplaters and materials engineers, and was discussed at least ten years ago in the literature. Or that it's been involved in at least one product liability case. Or that Bell Labs has known about it for over fifty years (since 1948).

    And never mind you could have found everything I mentioned above within the first 30 google results for "Zinc Whiskers". Nope. It must all be a myth, because there's no such thing as newly discovered age-related problems.

    (Oh, and I hear that automobile corrosion is a myth too ... I went to the new car lot and looked around and didn't see any, so it must not exist)

  31. Little problem with the magnets... by the_rajah · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No, I'm not worried about zapping floppies. Your ideas are, for the most part very good ones, but zinc is paramagnetic, if I recall right, and is not attracted to the magnets. Same for tinfoil, BTW. The magnets would be effective in catching iron filings and related ferromagnetic particles, though, but that didn't seem to be the reported problem in this case.

    Your friction hypothesis has merit, too, but growth of whiskers, more scientifically known as dendrites is actually quite common, especially where electric fields exist between conductors. I ran into that in a flexible touch keyboard we had designed using a silver alloy that was screened on as the conductors. Durn things would develop shorts after a while in the field, literally since it was on agricultural equipment. You couldn't see the shorts, but examination under a microscope revealed those nasty little whiskers. A metalurgist was consulted and provided a different alloy that solved the problem.

    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain

    --


    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
  32. Cisco and others have known at least since 1998 by shostiru · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's also worth noting that, at the finishing.com link I gave above, you'll find Cisco and well-known companies have known about this problem since at least 1996. Or perhaps finishing.com is involved in the conspiracy, or Cisco power engineers are idiots.

  33. Comments from the poster by xmas2003 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    A few comments/followup from the poster, Mr. Christmas Lights:

    1. I first like to thank simoniker for adding the "small metallic fibers which grow on surfces that have been electroplated with zinc" to the article - made it more understandable/readable.

    2. The NASA URL is one-level deep (a mistake on my part) - here is the top-level.

    3. Related to #2, I would STRONGLY recommend /.'ers actually READ what that says. The Denver Post article was written by a reporter - would you expect that to be technically accurate/broad/etc? Again, take a look at the NASA site which DOES present a compelling case that this is a REAL issue and not FUD. The original study with the medical equipment makes for facinating reading.

    4. Some Anonymous Coward seems to have a problem with my nickname. Did you actually click on the "Mr. Christmas Lights" and see what is there - tell me that isn't appropriate (it's been used before BTW).

    5. The same AC made a smart-ass comment about the Nigritude Ultramarine SEO contest - while I'm aware of that contest (#4 above is a hint for 'ya!), I'm currently ranking #199 for the keyphrase with less than a week to do, so I'm not a contendor ... although I do rank #1 for the phrase Nigritude Ultramarine Hulk! ;-) ... and I actually did submit a wrapup article a few days ago about this, but it got rejected - good news is the contest is over July 7th, so all those N-U links will go away - they are a bit annoying.

    6. I haven't seen anyone comment on a business (verus technical) aspect of the Denver Post article (but this is /.) where some state mucky-muck basically says this is a reason to bring all state websites under one authority and talks about $7.5 million in funding. One wonders if some empire building going on and/or play for more money!

    7. There have been several Denver Post articles about the failure of these computer systems. I didn't mention that fact in my submission because I thought it would be too lengthy, but apparently the inability to electronically check/file business/elections stuff has been a real big deal - good example of our dependancy on computers.

    'Nuff random late night rambling!

    --
    Hulk SMASH Celiac Disease
  34. It's the DEMOCRATS! by Mr.+Neutron · · Score: 2, Funny
    This basically halted business and elections document filings.

    They'll do anything to keep Nader off the ballot in a swing state. :-)

    --
    dinner: it's what's for beer
  35. Re:Absolutely no way by shostiru · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Those rackmounts you're talking about are frequently built for shop environments ... and older equipment was a lot more rugged anyway. You probably wouldn't have to worry about a PDP-11. I've seen metal dust kill sensitive equipment, I have no doubt it happens.

    Metal whiskers aren't usually a problem on the mobo itself (everything is conformal coated) but on exposed metal -- surface mount devices for example -- and especially in power supplies. And even then, it's only a problem if you can't take (or blow through) a 50-300 ohm short every now and then. Newer equipment is a lot more sensitive -- denser boards, less slop in timing and signals, etc ... and of course manufacturers cut costs wherever they can, even on networking and server equipment. Unless you can afford NEBS or industrial grades, "server grade" rackmounts aren't necessarily any more rugged these days than consumer grade crap.

    But it has been a problem outside of data centers, especially where you're looking at small (analog) signals with high input impedence. Examples include medical monitoring equipment and scientific research equipment, and it's why you don't see established manufacturers of either using uncoated, unalloyed zinc electroplating, especially in humid environments.

  36. Re:Absolutely no way by Tony-A · · Score: 4, Interesting

    we had rackmount Pc's that would have almost 1/4 inch of metal/sand dust on the motherboards and the computers were STILL working.

    Contacts that are exposed to a "harsh" environment generally form a very thin non-conductive film due to oxidation and/or corosion. This would also apply to any conductive surfaces. Depending on exactly what gets laid down, what you describe seems completely reasonable. However, something in a "clean" environment can easily be killed by something your self-protected PCs wouldn't even notice.

  37. Zinc whiskers in my house by SiliconEntity · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I live within a mile of the ocean, and we have a lot of fixtures in our house which must be made of zinc, because they grow these whiskers just like were described. We have a chandelier in particular which looks like it's brass, but it's always covered with fuzz. Then I have a chin-up bar in a doorway and the same thing happens to it.

    I wonder if it has to do with some kind of electrochemical reaction, where maybe there have to be different unlike metals with varying electronegativity, and enough humidity to get a low grade current flowing between them. I never saw this problem, when I lived elsewhere. But if my computers had zinc in them I'm sure it would grow whiskers just like the rest of my house.

  38. Re:Absolutely no way by rcw-home · · Score: 3, Interesting
    and therein lies the problem: you just asserted that this is an item of faith for you, not reason; facts be damned, you cannot be convinced.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    Risk = probability * loss. Since loss is obvious and fairly constant (a flaky or inoperative computer), if you want to hype this risk, besides just showing clear evidence that zinc whiskers are increasing the probability that a computer will die, you have to show to what degree that probability is increased - that is, that it merits more concern than other obscure things that can cause a computer to die.

  39. Re:Absolutely no way by muonzoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well you better start doing your homework.

    I worked for many years on a replacement Air Traffic Control System for Canada and as the project matured, our stage - lab (containing litterally hundreds of machines, a complete lab recreation of the coast-to-coast ATC system) started to experience an MTBF on the power supplies in the equipment that was over an order of magnitude smaller than spec'd by the manufacturer (Hewlett-Packard).

    Since this was a long-term contract that included commitments to deliver over an extended period of time (25 years), the material cost of this problem was VERY significant to the equipment vendor, not the customer. (In other words there was no financial motivation to fail to find fault, quite the opposite; the fault was costing them money.)

    In the spirit of "old HP" they sent us some senior hardware design guys to look at our lab and our environmentals (humidity, temp, pressures, cycles and power suppy spectra) to see what was causing the problem.

    Being about 6 years ago -- I hadn't heard of the Zinc problem yet, and neither had the guys from HP. They took everything back to their labs, including about 6 failed supplies and a couple 'still good ones', some from reserve stock and some from working machines.

    A few weeks later they came back; there was a big meeting -- this was an issue with potentially enormous cost -- including the ultimate customer's representatives.

    I can remember the Project Manager practically spitting his coffee when informed the underlying cause. The 'special ESD safe A/C'd lab' was part of the problem. Thank fully, the final deployed environment had different flooring, so we didn't have to change the sites, just some modifications to the lab.

    This is far from BS -- it's a problem that has cost millions and will likely cost millions more before it's over. But the SEM photos of the failed devices we cool to see.

  40. Re:Absolutely no way by shostiru · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Worked with many switching power supplies? We aren't talking about bulky transformers here where all signals are high current and you can slap a crowbar across the secondary and still not kill it.

    Switching power supplies can be surprisingly fragile. I've killed a couple working on TVs (that's basically what a flyback circuit is) and you can do it in one or two cycles (of your AC, not CPU cycles). And no, you don't want to know how much those power transistors cost. And I've killed computer PS by shorting across IC pins. There's not a lot of current going through these, and a 50-200 ohm short will definitely do the job. Remember, it only has to conduct long enough to nuke the chip.

    Or maybe you'd prefer to ask the Cisco power engineer about it. Naah, he probably doesn't know what he's talking about.

  41. Re:Absolutely no way by _damnit_ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I love this kind of stuff. Clueless moderators mod the parent insightful because none of them happen to have any personal experience with the subject. Lack of personal evidence does not constitute a conspiracy. Really, it doesn't.

    I have personally known about whiskers for over five years. It was becoming a potential problem in an old datacenter at work. It is a serious condition that datacenters with critical machines (or contractual obligations) take into account in datacenter design and maintenance. With 5 9's required for a lot of machines (Hitachi, IBM, Unisys, etc) there is little room for allowing electrically conductive dust particles to flow across every board on your machines.

    The other posters have given examples to satisfy the typical /. need for anecdotal evidence, yet you groundlessly claim that the articles anecdote MUST have some other explanation. Why? I am all for being a little skeptical, but there is such little reason for it in this case. Would you begrudge them the opportunity to clean out their under-tile areas? Most of us know how bad those areas can get regardless of the whisker issue.

    --


    _damnit_

    It's my job to freeze you. -- Logan's Run
  42. Re:Never had this problem. by shostiru · · Score: 2, Informative

    Most of the zinc-plated ducts I've seen are galvanized, not electroplated. It's only a problem with electroplated zinc (not alloy), galvanized doesn't have the same stresses inducing whisker growth.

  43. Re:Zinc Whiskers Are About As Much of a Problem As by _damnit_ · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The real reason for gold plating has more to do with oxidation than the resistance of the different metals. Dending on where you live, those connections can develop problems fairly quickly. I also had someone point out that they paid a LOT of money for their equipment and don't want any dissimlar metal issues. While I'm not sure about the odds of that being an issue, who am I to quibble with him over a 100 dollar cable to hook up 3000 dollar rack equipment?

    --


    _damnit_

    It's my job to freeze you. -- Logan's Run
  44. similar by sydres · · Score: 2, Interesting

    problem happens in copper wiring small copper "whiskers" grow right through the insulation. if two wire are close when this happens they can short out and cause fires. usually only happens in really old wiring

  45. Re:Absolutely no way by gessel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You'd think that, wouldn't you....

    In one of my jobs I got to set up an $800,000 prototyping shop with nice CNC equipment and all that. One of the toys I bought was a 350Amp Synchrowave welder. It was hard wired into the 460V main service we built into the building, all brand new freshly installed from the 10kv transformer to the disconnects. 600Amp 3 phase 460V service just to my little shop.

    First night there I figured I'd try the welder out, flipped the disconnect, hit the start button on the welder and poop, out the lights went go. I turned the disconnect off, checked the fuses - they were fine. I went out to figure out what had happened. The 600A service breaker was popped.

    I figured the welder had been wired wrong, opened the case. It was wired to the disconnect with, well, welding wire - stranded copper about an inch around. One - ONE - little tiny strand had unraveled and shorted across two phases. I bent it out of the way, buttoned up and it worked fine for the next 3 years. The main breaker never tripped again, not even when I was using the welder to blow holes through aluminum plate just for fun.

    Now there's no way that little tiny wire could take 600A at 460V, and I can't think of a plausible narrative to explain why the main breaker tripped - but it wasn't just floating - the CNC had been running and it had a 10HP spindle.

    A whisker doesn't have to survive conducting enough current to let the smoke out of the power supply - in it's incandescent passing, if the ghost of it's exisistance is a sliver of plasma, a very substaintial, if evanescent, conductor is created, literally, out of thin air.

  46. Re:we just finished replacing our Data Center's fl by dotmanor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hi, It just so happens that I work with this guy and he his correct in his statement. In fact my mom is the electron microscopist on site. Please note this is a VERY OLD electron microsope. around 8 - 10 years old. It doesn't have the ability to look at the lattice structure of a molecule because it simply isn't powerful enough. In our case the zinc whiskers where in the hundreds of microns in size. There is an attachment to the machine that can give you a breakdown of metals in the sample you are analyzing. In our case it was very obviously zinc. We have had problems with our new Sun equipment popping power supplies for several months nows (V480, 420R, etc.) although none of the Ultra 2's have had a problem at this point. We thought it was heat and power (thus the new AC unit for cooling) and the power checked out ok. The sun rep said we are the only company we service that was having supplies pop (in fact the data center across the hall wasn't having any issues but they have different tiles than us) when we had the cleaning crew in to clean under the tiles (prep for the under floor AC unit...note that we are using ceiling air now) In the span of 3 hours during the cleaning we lost 13 supplies all on new sun equipment. Once they stopped running vacs and pulling tiles it dropped off. Sun confirmed (with a sample of five dead supplies) that they were all caused by a short. Our tiles were wood core with hot dip galvanizing that had been recycled from an old computer room. These tiles had 20 years plus of use.

  47. Re:Absolutely no way by shostiru · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I did provide a link, and Google has more, but I'm not going to go to the library and scan metallurgical lit articles to satisfy your skepticism. If you don't want to believe it, that's your business, but I find it baffling ... I just don't see what's so extraordinary about a known phenomenon (Zn whisker growth in electroplated coatings) and a known failure mode in electronics gear, just because it's showing up in a new environment (data centers). This is NOT new, it's just new in this environment.

    Given it's a recently understood phenomenon (in data centers), I doubt anyone can quantify the risk. I certainly can't. I'm not trying to hype a risk, I'm trying to dispute repeated claims that this is bogus or exceptionally rare. I certainly don't have any financial interest in this, I've got better things to do with my life than vacuum wood-core subfloor panels.

    Oh, and metallurgy isn't my current field, but despite that I've run across this personally. So I started reading, and was amazed to find out how well known it was given I'd never heard of it. Turns out several engineers I knew (and one military data center guy) were familiar with it too.

    Keep in mind what the parent of my post said: You simply cannot convince me that this is a real problem that we need to worry about. Not, that this is a common problem, or a problem everyone should worry about. His or her claim was much stronger than that: it it's either unreal, or we don't have to worry about it (i.e., infinitessimal or zero risk).

    Furthermore, I found it telling that s/he said "you cannot convince me" instead of "you haven't convinced me". Not the best indicator of logical thought in my experience, but maybe it was just a poor choice of words.

    Like I said, believe what you want. Just let me know if you're running a data center in case I ever need to colo.

  48. Re:Absolutely no way-Silent killer. by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Reminds me of Asbestos. Silently waiting, until disturbed.

    Actually, in addition to have the potential to kill your computer, these fibers can do damage to your lungs to, just like asbestos, according to the PDF

  49. Time to retire bugs? by iamacat · · Score: 3, Funny

    "It's not my code, it's the zinc whiskers"

    As I recall, old computer used to suffer from mice chewing on the wires and they used to keep a cat to keep the programs running smoothly. Then it was bugs and I am not sure if spiders helped or added to the problem.

    I, for one, welcome our new zinc-eating nanobots.

  50. Re:Zinc Whiskers Are About As Much of a Problem As by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 2, Informative

    No, this is real. Here's why: a tarnished connector can become a non-linear junction. Tarnish such as a thin film of a sulfide, in contact with a 'pure' metal, can be a rectifier. If you put one on a curve tracer, you could actually see this. So there really is merit in a gold, i.e., non-corrodable, connector.

  51. Re:Silk screening by mlyle · · Score: 2, Informative

    You're thinking of the solder mask-- and the principal purpose of the solder mask is to-- you guessed it-- mask where solder goes. It's not a very good insulator and also there are large areas where a particle of conductive dust would be bad (on component leads, on various places which are left unmasked, probably wouldn't be good in inductors for CPU core power supply, or in the power supply itself..)

  52. Re:Absolutely no way by stuktongue · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A whisker doesn't have to survive conducting enough current to let the smoke out of the power supply - in it's incandescent passing, if the ghost of it's exisistance is a sliver of plasma, a very substaintial, if evanescent, conductor is created, literally, out of thin air.

    Thanks for this, gessel. In the aerospace industry, where I work, tin whiskers are the problem. In a vacuum (test or on-orbit), a shorting whisker can result in a plasma condition that will arc, allowing literally hundreds of amperes of current to flow for durations on the order of tens of seconds. This has been the cause of loss of many units and even entire systems. Of course, this is in a vacuum; in a non-vacuum situation, though, it is still possible to create localized low-pressure areas that might enable this phenomenon.

    Whether or not this relates to the computer room problems of this article is not strictly relevant to the point I want to make. My point is: Many things happen in ways you wouldn't expect; intuition is not always your best guide to determining cause-effect.

  53. No, you can not! by Poingggg · · Score: 2, Informative

    Zinc is not attracted by magnets. The only ferromagnetic materials are iron, nickel and cobald.
    Magnets will have no effect whatsoever.

    --
    What person will donate an airborne act of love?
  54. Re:protecting electronics? by tcgroat · · Score: 3, Interesting
    It's called "conformal coating". It protects circuits against humidity, conductive contamination, fungus, and other environmental hazards. There are two big reasons PC manufacturers don't use it:

    Anything that adds cost and isn't absolutely essential doesn't go into a product with merciless cost pressure. Consumer-grade PCs will last for years in home use without the conformal coating, so they don't have it.

    Anything that increases production time and isn't essential doesn't go into a high volume product. Applying and curing the coating takes additional time, space, and equipment. A fume hood or spray booth is needed to control fumes during application, and a UV curing "oven" is desirable for high volume products (air drying takes much longer).

    Conformal coating is widely used in military products, and also is in some industrial products that must survive severe environments. But they are rarely used in office equipment, and I've never seen it in a mass market PC.

  55. Yup by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 2, Informative
    My company has just had to replace the floors at two large data centres because of zinc whiskers. The replacement floor panels will be galvanized, not electroplated.

    And before anyone points out that they're the same thing, they're not. Galvanizing involves dipping steel into molten zinc. Despite the name, it has nothing to do with galvanic action, electroplating or Mr Galvani. Galvanized panels don't suffer from zinc whiskers, anyway.

    --
    When I am king, you will be first against the wall.