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Cassini Shatters Titan Theories

Posted by timothy on from the ok-now-give-me-my-money-back dept.

Dozix007 writes "The Herald reports: Cassini pierced the haze around Titan, Saturn's biggest moon, revealing details that have shattered theories about its composition. It has atmosphere and soil similar to primordial Earth and may contain the building blocks of life. Scientists believed bright patches on its surface seen earlier were pure water ice. But the first infrared images taken by Cassini revealed water ice as dark patches because it is mixed with material that may be organic, raining on to the surface."

36 of 461 comments (clear)

  1. Ethical questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think this brings up huge ethical questions. If we are right, and there are the building blocks of life down there, do we have any right to interfere with that process? Undoubtably we are going to do something while "studying" this that causes the process to go all wrong (or not happen at all) like a satellite hitting the surface and contaminating the moon, causing these building blocks to not form (flash backs of the last episode of ST:TNG).

    1. Re:Ethical questions by mikejz84 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not really. Titan is stuck in way out in the cold of space. Everyone believes that Titan is WAY to cold for life to ever exist. This however changes in about 5 billion years when the sun goes red giant and Titan might possibly enter a period of a few 100 million years where it gets earth-like tempatures. The question of course is if titan will survive for another 5 billion years.

    2. Re:Ethical questions by mOoZik · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There could very well be underwater vents, similar to here, that would provide warmth and chemical nourishment. We can't speculate, because there is a whole lot we still don't know. I am looking forward to the landing of the probe next year.

      --
      A blog like any other.
    3. Re:Ethical questions by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It isn't quite that easy. To date, we haven't seen a single form of life (save for microbes) that can survive that deep into the Solar System. Even Mars is downright balmy in comparison to Titan, but there is little sign that life does exist there or ever will.

      The core of the problem is that life needs one thing above all else to survive: Energy. The star we call our Sun pumps terrawatts upon terrawatts of power into the Earth each day. Plants and some forms of microbes are able to take this energy and convert it into fuel stores. These fuel stores are then used to power all other life on the planet.

      The problem with Titan is that it's probably lacking the energy necessary to sustain life. While the soil may be rich in "organic compounds" (i.e. the elements and minerals necessary for life as we know it) those compounds are of zero use if there isn't a sustainable energy source. And the Sun can't be that energy source since barely a few kilowatts of its energy reach Titan. That's not to say that Titan doesn't have some other energy source at its interior, but it is somewhat unlikely. In the end, it may be that Titan would make an excellent place from which to acquire raw materials as man expands into space. Difficult to find materials such as Nitrogen could be hurled from high up in the Sun's gravity well, to lower points such as Mars.

      --
      Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
    4. Re:Ethical questions by barakn · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There could very well be underwater vents

      Ha! Would you care to bet money on that? I'm wondering where you think liquid water is on a planet whose surface is 95 degrees K, 178 degrees below the freezing point of water.

      --
      "I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
    5. Re:Ethical questions by Takatsuki · · Score: 2, Interesting

      this is not a new question. why do you think we take such pains to remove any biological contaminants from martian spacecraft? dont worry. we have much less chance of contaminating titan.

      --
      my other post is +5 insightful
    6. Re:Ethical questions by mindstrm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The same place it is in the arctic, where the surface temperature is 60 degrees below the freezing point of water. Under the ice.

    7. Re:Ethical questions by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There are a couple of things to consider: The first is that Titan is far too coold for most life as we know it to survive... On the other hand, there's life in some of the most inhospitibale places found on earth, so that's no promise.

      The other thint is that, because Huygens was being built for insertion on Titan I believe that some special effort was taken to minimize the possibility of contamination. This is the main reason why Galileo was ordered to deep-6 itself... it wasn't constructed with the possibility of crash-landing onto a life-capable moon, and NASA didn't want to risk it crashing someplace livable 500 years from now and accidently terraforming the place.

      Of course, the xenphile's wet dream is that Huygens never makes it to the surface proper because it gets stuck in the branches of a methane-based forest.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    8. Re:Ethical questions by BillyBlaze · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Depending on Titan's geology, some energy could also come from the heat in its core. On earth, we have life that uses only heat and chemical energy from deep-sea vents. And some theories say life started there with autocatalytic enzymes, with cell walls, DNA, and chlorophyll coming later.

    9. Re:Ethical questions by General+Alcazar · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Exactly. Essentially we have only one data point (life on Earth) to help us determine what are the universal foundations of life. It is very difficult to extrapolate from one data point. For example, why couldn't there be life on the Sun? Who knows?

      I think it is important to try and take as broad a view as possible about what life might actually be. I mean, what the heck IS life, anyway? I find Stuart Kauffman's thinking very interesting.

    10. Re:Ethical questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      read this
      note the part about

      In all living systems the building blocks of the DNA and RNA exist exclusively in the right-handed form, while the amino acids in virtually all proteins in living systems, with very rare exception, occur only in the left-handed form

      also read this

      There is only one life on Earth. This is one of the most profound recent discoveries of biology. All life forms on Earth have the same biochemistry. Life is based on a common set of some 20 amino acids. Both left-handed and right-handed (laevo- and dextro-rotary) isomers of these acids exist in the laboratory, but life uses only left-handed amino acids. When you die, the amino acids in your body will gradually convert to 50% left-handed and 50% right handed by quantum processes. This racemerization can be used to date organic remains. All life shares the same genetic code: RNA and DNA. Thus life shares a common ancestor.

      so the amino acids to form life DONT exist naturally and never have ....but they got here somehow......................

    11. Re:Ethical questions by mikerich · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Not really. Titan is stuck in way out in the cold of space. Everyone believes that Titan is WAY to cold for life to ever exist. This however changes in about 5 billion years when the sun goes red giant and Titan might possibly enter a period of a few 100 million years where it gets earth-like tempatures

      It's quite significant, since many of the complex organic compounds on Titan are very similar to those that would have been raining down on the primordial Earth before that began evolving. Spectroscopy has already found chemicals such as hydrogen cyanide (HCN), cyanoacetylene (HC3N) and cyanogen (C2N2) in the Titanian atmosphere - these are thought to be essential in the manufacture of amino acides.

      Secondly, Titan is in a cold place, but it may not be cold - it is a sizeable body which may well have differentiated - under all of that ice there may be rock heated by radioactive decay - which would provide plenty of energy to drive chemical reactions.

      I'm sure a physicist will be along shortly to say if Titan also receives energy from tidal pumping in its orbit around Saturn - that keeps Io, Europa and Ganymede hot around Jupiter, and Triton hot around Neptune.

      I'm just surprised how much this composite image of Titan looks like the early images of Mars.

      Best wishes,
      Mike.

  2. 2001 by dirtmerchant · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Does anyone else find it interesting that in the original draft of 2001: A Space Odyssey, the craft is bound for one of the moons of Saturn as opposed to Europa as was portrayed in the movie. Now after some preliminary exploring Europa we find that Europa's a dud and the easy-bake life mix is in fact on Titan.

    1. Re:2001 by Lispy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, I wouldn't count Europa out to fast.
      It might well hold some surprises.

    2. Re:2001 by ROOK*CA · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Where do you get your information ? we're still at the point where's there is NO WAY to determine if life is viable on Europa or not, we have no idea if a liquid water ocean exists under its solid ice surface and won't until we have a lander capable of drilling (or melting) through the surface ice(a LONG ways a way). BTW the Huygens probe's primary mission is NOT to look for life on Titan, rather it's to study the chemistry and geology of that moon. It's HIGHLY, HIGHLY unlikely that any life exists there (as we understand life that is) since the surface temperatures hover at near absolute ZERO (-178 DegC or so), and the atmospheric chemistry is all wrong to support life. Perhaps deep within Titan, but's that's a long shot.

    3. Re:2001 by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Europa's a dud? Where did you get that idea? Sure, a number of astronomers have hypothesized that Europa's ocean is acidic, but confirmation of this hypothesis will rest on the observations of a as yet undesigned mission. Besides, low pH is not an absolute barrier to life, as evidenced by the variety of extremophile bacteria here on earth.

      As for the "Easy Bake Oven Mix" theory, what you Nomeites don't seem to realize is that most terrestrial style life prefers a slightly warmer climate. Nasa elides over this small matter, though, as mentioning the word "life' seems to be a good way of attracting favourable media attention and its attendant appropriations.

    4. Re:2001 by ResidntGeek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ok, maybe I lied. According to an article in August's Discover, there weren't enough pictures to build a convincing model of Saturn.

      --
      ResidntGeek
  3. Not just life, understanding planetary environment by TrevorB · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Actually I think the big question is the next question: "Why didn't live evolve like it did on Earth".

    Suppose we find evidence of fossilized life on Mars, and that Mars was once a warm, wet world. What went wrong? Was it simply that Mars was colder, or is something more subtle going on?

    On worlds where "life may once have been", we also have an excellent opportunity to examine worlds in many ways like Earth that failed to produce life. Mars, Venus, Titan... These could potentially be what Earth looks like millions of years from now. Exactly what nudges a world in that direction? Carbon Dioxide? Hydrocarbons in the air? Something else we don't even know about yet?

    I believe that examining the chemosystems and environments of non-Earths is immensely valuable. And in my opinion, the knowledge gained far outweighs the (negligable) risk of using nuclear RTG for the trip, something we've all happily forgotten after Cassini passed Earth for the last time. If understanding Titan gives us a better knowledge of our own environment, we need to use this argument next time someone protests using an RTG on a launch vehicle.

  4. There is no prime directive... by John+Seminal · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I think we have every right to determine who/what we are, and if that means examining every corner of the universe for our history then I say do it. For those who have not noticed, it is a cold cruel world out there. And nobody is in agrement like the fabled Federation of Planets (look at the UN where power varies by country might; it is not a division of power where every voice is equally important). The USA founding fathers conquered the indians. Are we better off for it, or should we never have left europe and stayed under the rule of Kings?? The logic which says to not disturb/influance others natural rights does not exsist in nature, where animals eat one another. Why should we act in an un-natural way, personifying some amino acid?

    Second, was there a big bang? How did it all happen? These questions are relevent in how we think about our life and morality. Did life form on earth based on what was on earth, or was there some comet which had a fragment with the building blocks of life fall down to earth? What does it mean in terms of our religious beliefs? Perhaps science can bring all people together.

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

  5. Re:Temperature to Support Life? by CrazyDuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Cryobacteria. (Surprisingly there isn't much on the net on this)

    Bacteria that can survive under extreme cold. If I remember correctly, some Cyanobacteria (bacteria with chlorophyll) made a living under a few inches of water ice near the polls of this planet.

    Any preliminaries on the temperature of that ice on Titan? You can also add chemicals to water to keep it liquid (a la natural antifreeze some antarctic species use.)

    Another thing to consider is volcanics. If Titan has Volcanic activity for whatever reason there may be life there similar to the chemical based life at the deep see vents on this planet.

    Just a few ideas...

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
  6. Europa vs Titan by Delta+Vel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Can someone explain why NASA was so concerned about contaminating Europa that they smashed a spacecraft into Jupiter that could otherwise have lasted a lot longer, but where Titan is concerned no one seems to think about contamination?

    --
    It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye. Then it's fun and games without depth perception.
  7. Because by PhysicsGenius · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We are already funding the possibility of life in Africa (cf starvation).

  8. It's an ethical question we've already answered by taxman_10m · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The questions surrounding the "process of life" and the "building blocks of life" have already been hashed out in the abortion debate. The answer is that the mere process or the mere existance of building blocks is not life itself, and does not have to be treated as such.

  9. Re:Please drop the human == BAD viewpoint by orangesquid · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Oh, it's just that... Humans are just notorious for causing a LOT of radical change very quickly. Native Americans are typically considered to have lived in harmony with the planet. Does that mean they never killed anything?

    What, are you kidding? A man's gotta eat, and you can't just walk around letting whomever and whatever take advantage of you and/or get in your way.

    Consider this analysis of the Wiccan Rede. You can't get too much accomplished if you never break any rules (like the Prime Directive, or the local ordinances of your town, or social mores), but minimizing any "harm" that is done is always wise. (written in quotes because what is "harmful" is very subject to interpretation!)

    The point is, it's never good to set in stone what you should or should not do. Many have tried to write a "complete code of ethics" that covers every situation, but such a thing will never exist, because there are new twists to every situation, and nobody can think of every possibility.

    Should we interfere with developing life in the Universe? Well, quite possibly, yes! Wouldn't you be disappointed if the SETI project failed for no other reason than all the other life out there had decided not to fuck with us because, well, maybe we were still "developing?"

    But then again, nobody should go aronud stomping blindly where they might be important developments occuring underfoot.

    Humans are powerful creatures, in the sense that we have the capability to do an awful lot of change very quickly, if we so desire. With great power comes great responsibility, to quote a recent blockbuster release...

    --
    --TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
  10. Just wanted to extend my appreciation, Cassini... by tizzyD · · Score: 4, Interesting

    for taking me to a place that sadly I will never be able to go. Growing up on sci-fi, Star Trek, and Space 1999, I dreampt of standing on Titan's shores. Now I know a bit more about what is really there. So, from one explorer born about 500 years too early, I just extend my thanks to the Cassini team. Congratulations, and keep the science coming!

    --
    ...tizzyd
  11. Put a NASA Donation box on the Tax Forms by Vandil+X · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've been saying for years that the IRS needs to replace the "Contribution to the Presidential Campaign Fund" box on tax forms with a "Write in your desired donation to NASA" box.

    If this were made possible I'm sure thousands of people would gladly donate money every year.

    --
    Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
  12. Re:NASA Funding by SengirV · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You must be a Democrat. Only in the democratic party can a budget increas be seen as a cut. Check out this PDF concerning NASA Budgets. Also, The Presidents Space Initiative would increase spending for NASA as well.

    http://ifmp.nasa.gov/codeb/budget2003/03-Multi-Y ea r_Budget.pdf

    --

    Prof. Farnsworth - "Oh a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!"

  13. Re:a quibble and some other comments by WormholeFiend · · Score: 2, Interesting

    can they re-aim the probe at another target site?

  14. Who owns it? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As space travel become privitised and travel cheaper, inevitably old treaties will be revised by corperate interests, in favour of the private ownership of other planets.

    Titan _Will_ eventually become privatly owned by some rich tycoons/corperations/religions looking to make money off it, and whatever life is there will be subject to their bulldozing mercy.

    Might be far fetched, but remember you can buy plots of land on mars here

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  15. Lets try realistic numbers. by WindBourne · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There are more than 300 million in the states. If 1% donated, that would be 3 million. If the average was $10 each, that would be 30 Million. It would help

    The real issue is that the current admin (and probably other ones) will fight this. They want total control of how money is spent.

    We have a similar check-off here in colorado for a number of things as well as we have passed bills that says that the state is to put x dollars into education (we were once one of the tops, now in 7 years we have slid to a level == to Texas; Pretty bad). Now that Owens can not put the money where he wants to, he is upset and try to get the bill repealed, but the citizens are fighting him.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  16. what is life anyway? by BigGerman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We define it today, simply, as sometings that is made of complex organics (proteins), eats, poops and (optionally) moves. But this is definition of just one form of life we know of today.
    When arguing about life on Titan we must first remember what we know about life in general. The only thing that comes to mind - life is omni-present, once it takes hold there is no stopping to what it evolves.
    I am always sceptical reading about possible ET life as bunch of miserable bacteria somewhere under the ice of Europa or rocks of Titan. Make no mistake - if there is life on Titan, it will be teaming with it.
    And it is very possible. I would be very surprised if Titan is life-less. It would be a major "for" argument for the Creationism.
    Titan is the most Earth-like place in the Solar system. Titan has complex organic muleculae, heat from tectonics and athmosperic electricity. They talked about surface features not caused by meteoric bombardment. It means: mountains, rivers, erosion (soil),etc.
    How much we would learn about life on Earth by taking couple of hazy pics from 300000 km out? Keep your eyes open and I think we will be in for a big surprise come October (flyby) and January (probe).

  17. Re:NASA Funding by Cybrr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You should be able to vote "None of the above" or call your representative. Would approval voting make running for congress cheaper so less well-endowed groups can have their say?

    --
    Why did GEAR crush RDP?
  18. Re:NASA Funding by Phragmen-Lindelof · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "The Presidents Space Initiative" is worse than the President's "hydrogen economy". The hydrogen economy may help the environment SOMEDAY; right now, of course, it just lets Bush ignore gasoline efficiency standards in autos. His "Space Initiative" lets him both ignore/underfund many parts of NASA and prepare us to SOMEDAY fly to the moon so we can THEN fly to Mars (very energy efficient). (I do not know if the "Space Initiative" will funnel money to "big" Republicians but who knows?)

  19. Re:NASA Funding by amRadioHed · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hey! Do you think the politicians would give NASA more money if NASA would arrange for some photos of them flying through space clinging to the probe?

    That would be awesome, everyone comes out a winner!

    --
    We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  20. Re:No liquids on Titan by ROOK*CA · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well actually one theory suggests that Methane in Titans atmosphere is broken down by radiation (from both the sun and Cosmic Rays trapped in Saturns Magnetic Field) into Ethane. Since Ethane boils at -89 Deg C, and freezes at about -183 Deg C, it would be quite feasible for liquid Ethane to both exist on the surface and "rain" (or snow) down from the sky. So basically Titan could be the richest natural gas find in history ;-) (and if there was free oxygen it would surely hold the record as the "most flammable world around").

  21. Lucky they didn't measure it in MCGs by ynotds · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Melbourne Herald-Sun is so provincial that in the only issue I've had in my hands for yonks (needed to check a death notice) you had to get to page 25 for a single page of "World News" and blessedly only a solitary story on Iraq.

    The real question is what inspired them to suddenly think of running something from the other side of the asteroid belt. Must have been the ultimate slow news day.

    --
    -- Our systemic servants do not good masters make.