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Security Statistics and Operating System Conventional Wisdom

kev0153 writes "Microsoft Windows is more secure than you think, and Mac OS X is worse than you ever imagined. That is according to statistics published for the first time this week by Danish security firm Secunia. "Secunia is now displaying security statistics that will open many eyes, and for some it might be very disturbing news," said Secunia chief executive Niels Henrik Rasmussen. "The myth that Mac OS X is secure, for example, has been exposed." "

73 of 556 comments (clear)

  1. Welcome to Bizzaro World! by Zorilla · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...where MS wants you to use Firefox and Mac OS X is less secure than Windows!

    --

    It would be cool if it didn't suck.
  2. On a side note... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    We would all like to thank the millions of dollars Microsoft invested in our research to bring it to the successful conclusion.

    It took us a couple of tries to get the results so that they would give us the right answer, but eventually we figured out a way. Microsoft kept funding us all along the way.

    Thank you!

  3. And whom funded this 'article' by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Funny

    If you trace the money, there wont be much suprise in who it leads back too.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  4. Until LM authentication is gone... by pegr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Until LanManager authentication is totally removed (not just turned off) from Windows, Windows will not be secure. There are just too many exploits involving LM authentication to take Windows seriously.

    1. Re:Until LM authentication is gone... by julesh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Until telnetd is totally removed (not just turned off) from Linux, Linux will not be secure. There are just too many exploits involving telnet to take Linux seriously.

      What's wrong with having insecure features that are disabled by default? Many people operate in secure environments where such features (which they need for interoperability reasons) offer a "good enough" degree of security. There's no point in making these people's life harder.

    2. Re:Until LM authentication is gone... by richie2000 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Until telnetd is totally removed (not just turned off) from Linux, Linux will not be secure.

      So you're saying Linux is secure? Good. You see, it's been a few years since telnetd was installed in a base Linux install. I'd say that qualifies as "totally removed".

      --
      Money for nothing, pix for free
    3. Re:Until LM authentication is gone... by pegr · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not sure I understand you. You seem to be implying that when LM auth is disabled (via local/group policy), it is still exploitable? This is news to me.

      You can certainly turn it off, but unless you disable storing the LM hash, it's still available for cracking. In the wild, my experience is that LM hashes are available as a general rule (90% of the time or better). My insistance that LM authentication be removed outright is due to the "lazy admin" factor. So yes*, in practice, unless it is removed outright, many times it is still exploitable.

      *Definately needs qualifying. Can you turn off LM effectively? (yes) Do admins do it? ('fraid not...)

    4. Re:Until LM authentication is gone... by lpontiac · · Score: 4, Informative
      Until telnetd is totally removed (not just turned off) from Linux, Linux will not be secure. There are just too many exploits involving telnet to take Linux seriously.

      Bad example. There's a telnet service in Windows too.

    5. Re:Until LM authentication is gone... by tlhIngan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, what you say is true, but in order to obtain LM hashes, you must be either a domain admin (for AD retrieval) or a local admin.

      Funny. I cracked the administrator password of XP (Pro, on a domain, with encrypted hashes), *without* admin access (that was the reason I cracked it - I needed admin access!).

      What I did, was boot Knoppix, and copy over the SYSTEM and SAM registry hives. Most apps will crack with just the SAM hive. However, the SYSTEM hive contains the encryption key to the SAM hive, and a little app known as SAMinside (another l0phtcrack app), *does* understand how to crack this more secure hash.

      Heck, there was a way to do it, so you could get the hashes, import them into l0phtcrack and use it to crack.

      All it took were a couple of demo/shareware apps (l0phtcrack, SAMinside), and a Knoppix CD (to get at SAM and SYSTEM hives, via NTFS driver). And a 3rd party machine.

      And no, none of those apps would work on the machine in question - locked down. I cracked it on my own Win2k machine.

  5. Missing Stats? by BearJ · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Ok, from my read of the article everything is roughly equally insecure, give or take. Question then becomes, how quickly are these problems responded to. Surely Microsoft as the largest company out there would be the quickest right?

    right?

    --
    Stand clear of the doors. The doors are now closing.
    1. Re:Missing Stats? by radicalskeptic · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The stats don't make sense to me. Here's what I see:

      Windows XP Professional saw 46 advisories in 2003-2004, with 48% of vulnerabilities allowing remote attacks and 46% enabling system access, Secunia said.

      So that would mean, multiplying 46 by 48% would give you the number of remote attacks, and multiplying 46 by 46% would give you the number of attacks enabling system access. So for Windows:

      • 22.08 remote attacks.
      • 21.16 system access attacks.


      Don't ask me why they are not integers. I suppose that some advisorys covered more than one bug?

      Now, for OS X:Of the 36 advisories issued in 2003-2004, 61% could be exploited across the internet and 32% enabled attackers to take over the system.

      Using the same system as before, I got:

      • 21.96 remote attacks.
      • 11.52 system access attacks.


      So they're saying OS X allows HALF of the number of attacks that can gain access to a system as XP, but their conclusion is that "The myth that Mac OS X is secure, for example, has been exposed"???Hmmm....
      --
      WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
    2. Re:Missing Stats? by zhiwenchong · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it's just a case of their phrasing being misleading.

      I believe they mean that
      1) Windows is not as insecure as YOU THINK
      2) Mac OS X is not as secure as YOU THINK (they assume Mac OS X users think that the operating system has 0 to few exploits)

      They're not really saying that Windows is more secure than Mac OS X. But the way the said it -- well, sure could mislead a lot of people.

    3. Re:Missing Stats? by richie2000 · · Score: 5, Informative
      Why? Because we've only really GIVEN A FUCK about security for the last half a decade or so. Before that 99% of the worlds PCs were by themselves on a desk, or on some small 10mbit lan with a couple others.

      I'm really tired of idiots on Slashdot that have no clue what the fuck they're talking about. Half a decade. Ptoii! I can start by going back 15 years and easily debunk your lies. At that time, most computers in this here world (disclaimer, I have no idea which world you're from - but you should phone home coz' your green-skinned momma is worried about you) were either in universities or corporations. I'm not counting the C= 64s, Atari ][ and Colecovisions here, kay? They have no bearing on the current crop of operating systems. UNIX does. VMS does. Access control and security were big back then - simply because schools with thousands of students had one 64k line to the world (for mail, ftp, gopher, archie and telnet) and diskspace measured in megs so there had to be ways to keep the students from eating it all up. They had to be kept from use the mainframes to play Nethack, to download ASCII pr0n and to chat on IRC instead of studying. Quotas, passwords, password policies, shadowing, encryption - all that jazz. It's not new. It's been around several decades. Half a decade... Maybe Microsoft haven't cared for it more than half a decade, but the world does not revolve around Redmond.

      Security is not new. The problem is that Microsoft built DOS for single-user. It had no real security layer and that carried over into Windows 3.11, Windows 95 and all the way into ME. They had to preserve backwards compatibility, see? They had to maintain their monopoly and they could not let little things like end-user security get in the way of that goal.

      Meanwhile, all the OSes that came from multi-user roots had a lot of that already built-in. They were network operating systems, built from a network-centric point of view. It wasn't tacked on afterwards like the TCP/IP stack for Windows 3.11. Remember that? It was a separate download.

      Half a decade, my ass The Internet has been around and popularized by the WWW much longer than that. I've been building websites since 1995, kiddo. Were you even born back then? I used to log in remotely to SunView terminals and run the WhenHarryMetSally.aiff on my classmates' computers at full volume, that's a remote exploit if ever there was one! The Morris worm. Say no more, Squire!

      And what delusional script kidde MS astroturfers modded your crappy rant Insightful, we'll never know. Hell, I was ranting on the 'net in 1990! You'd think the art would have evolved since then...

      --
      Money for nothing, pix for free
    4. Re:Missing Stats? by burnin1965 · · Score: 5, Informative

      And simply reading the article is exactly what this Microsoft shill is expecting everyone to do.

      This may be asking alot, but I'd like everyone to dig a little deeper and actual go to the secunia.com website and poke around at the statistics yourself. What you will find is that the guy who wrote this article is either too damned lazy to fully research his topic or he is intentionally using these statistics inaccurately in order to prove a false point.

      For those who don't have the time to find out for themselves what the statistics REALLY say, here is what I found:

      In the secunia.com statistics for Windows XP there is only a single exploit related to Internet Explorer. That sounds pretty good but its also blatantly false.

      In fact, if you dig a little deeper into the statistics on their web site you discover that Internet Explorer 6 from 2003 to 2004 had 40 advisories by itself with 98% allowing remote attack and 31% enabling system access.

      secunia.com/product/11/

      So taking into account all the IE vulnerabilities instead of grouping them into one advisory we suddenly discover that Microsoft Windows XP Proffessional had 86 advisories from 2003 to 2004 with 71% allowing remote attacks and 38% enabling system access!

      Now some will say "not fair" because IE is a seperate application. All I can tell you is that if you actually looked at the statistics you would already know that the OSX and linux statistics include security advisories for ALL applications included in with the OS. So it is only fair to also include ALL Windows applications that come with Windows.

      So in conclusion, when I include the vulnerabilities of just one single Windows application the number of exploits in Windows is around double what you have with the likes of OSX or linux. I suspect that including other Windows applications that were excluded from the Windows statistics everyone will begin to understand why Windows is a haven for worms and viruses.

      I don't think I will be migrating from my Mac OSX and linux installs any time soon.

      burnin

    5. Re:Missing Stats? by finkployd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They really do respond quickly, usually the first time I hear of a new exploit is when automatic update prompts me to download and isntall it. Usually a few days before it's posted on Slashdot for the second time.

      From your perspective, yes they respond quickly. Join a few security mailing lists and hang out with security people and you will see just how long it takes them to fix exploits that some people (perhaps not you or slashdot) know about. Believe me, the crackers and script kiddies are not relying on slashdot to let them know about 0day exploits.

      Finkployd

    6. Re:Missing Stats? by argent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It doesn't really make sense to bother counting system access attacks separately on Windows, because unless you lock the system down to the point where it's basically a kiosk there's no way to prevent the user getting system level access. The only statistic you need to worry about is remote user access, everything else is a given.

      For example, if you want to allow the user to release and renew their DHCP lease (which is an essential troubleshooting step for any problems involving IP address problems in a dynamic address environment) you have to give the user the right to load device drivers. Which can be boosted to system level access.

      Since access is associated only with the user... there's no setuid mechanism that allows a program to be run by the user but with elevated privileges... any code run by the user has that right, and thus any remote or local exploit really has to be treated as a root exploit.

      On any UNIX based system, the same operation can be controlled by the setuid mechanism, which isn't perfect but *does* allow more separation of privilege than exists in Windows. And Mac OS X makes extensive use of it... every time you enter your password to allow access to a system function you're using setuid.

      So those stats are really:

      XP: 22 remote access attacks, 43 system access attacks.
      OSX: 22 remote access attacks, 12 system access attacks.

      Also, OS X ships with all remote access turned off by default, including remote file system and shell. You have to explicitly enable it. XP ships open to the world, you have to close it, and there's things you *can't* close without setting up a firewall.

      So the statistics look more like this:

      XP: 22 remote access attacks, some open by default, all leading to system access.
      OSX: 22 remote access attacks, none open by default, no remote system access attacks open by default.

      Here's the statistic that I'm concerned about:

      There has been one significant browser-based hole on OS X. In the same time there have been multiple exploited holes in IE, including almost the same hole that was found in Safari, and after almost 10 years of similar browser-based holes being found on a regular basis with Microsoft making no attempt whatsoever to fix the underlying design flaw that makes them inevitable.

      Hopefully Apple will respond better than Microsoft.

    7. Re:Missing Stats? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Now some will say "not fair" because IE is a seperate application.

      Didn't Microsoft swear under oath that it was not a separate application, but was instead an integral part of the OS?

    8. Re:Missing Stats? by jesser · · Score: 3, Informative

      I wouldn't call that a hole in Safari, since it affected Mozilla too (bmo 243699). It was a hole in the OS. Mozilla now disallows links to help: URLs to work around that hole, btw.

      --
      The shareholder is always right.
    9. Re:Missing Stats? by jasonbw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      i also found it odd that they counted every iteration of windows (and IE 5, 5,5 and 6) separately, yet theres one single entry for OSX.

  6. Follow the money. by user+no.+590291 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that this "Secunia" derives funding from a common source with SCO.

    1. Re:Follow the money. by fuzzix · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that this "Secunia" derives funding from a common source with SCO.

      Not true. Secunia is its own private concern and judging from correspondence they have with the inquirer I very much doubt they'll be swayed by "contributions" as easily as our R&D friends at Adti.

      That said, there are some omissions from the article such as which applications in the Linux distros were vulnerable and how long it took for each vuln to be patched.
  7. no of vulnerablilities vs actual exploits by martin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Would be nice to see how many of these *potential* exploits resulted in actual malware/hackers using them.

    Just because the potential is there doesn't mean these holes have exploits running in the wild.

    It's a risk thing...Windows exploits are *more* likely to be exploited than Solaris ones, but that doesn't mean the Solaris ones won't be exploited (cf a couple of super computer centers getting hacked!)

  8. Before we all jump on the AdTI bandwagon... by Xshare · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...and everyone says that Microsoft is paying Secunia to do this, etc. (like with AdTI, though AdTI really is getting funding from MSFT, different story), read this: http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/32370.html
    It seems that it was Secunia which released lots of IE bugs, and that Microsoft has had scuffles with them before. Unless someone here has evidence that they got funding from MSFT since then, don't say that.

    1. Re:Before we all jump on the AdTI bandwagon... by robogun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Explain then the FUD from these guys, and why they ignore, in terms of everyday use, why only Windows/IE users can get r00ted by simply browsing a website, and OSX users can't. How come when I re-install Win2K SP# it takes 63 security updates over nine reboots before I can even consider plugging in directly to the net.

      This article is so beyond common sense and everyday experience, I cannot see how it can possibly hold up to examination.

    2. Re:Before we all jump on the AdTI bandwagon... by rufo · · Score: 3, Informative

      While in general, people are lazy and haven't learned to care about security (I don't really blame anyone about this, there's never been a need to before), I think it's mainly because Microsoft gives you root rights by default, whereas Apple does not.

      Seriously... I believe I'm using the same account on my Windows XP box that the installer set up for me. I don't think I've ever had a single permissions issue with editing the registry, installing/uninstalling software, etc. Never been asked for my username/password, outside of logging in. On my Mac, on the other hand, any time I do anything remotely related to modifying the system, up pops a dialog asking for my username and password, and informing me what application is requesting this information.

      Now, this dialog isn't anywhere near secure - I think it'd be trivial to put together a fake dialog that looks like it's some other application, but uses the information typed in to its own nefarious advantage. But it does give you the idea that Apple seems to be more concerned about security out of the box.

      --
      My English teacher once told me that two positives don't make a negative. Two words for her: Yeah, right.
    3. Re:Before we all jump on the AdTI bandwagon... by equiraptor · · Score: 3, Informative

      why only Windows/IE users can get r00ted by simply browsing a website,

      An unpatched OS X system can "get r00ted" by simply browsing to a websight. Safari has an extension association that would allow a page to call the command terminal and run any command desired. Oops, you're rooted. It has been patched, but so have most of the bugs viruses use in Windows.

    4. Re:Before we all jump on the AdTI bandwagon... by Have+Blue · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can't get r00ted through that, you can only get "usered". Losing your account is by no means a good thing, but owning the entire computer would require a restricted operation, and that unavoidably pops up a dialog box which the user would hopefully be smart enough to cancel.

      (Of course, if it turns out in the future that OS X has any privilege elevation bugs, all bets are off.)

  9. Mac OSX and Linux - face the facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The Mac and Linux communities need to accept the fact that Windows, however much you might HATE Microsoft, is more secure.

    How many independent reports have we seen that come to the same conclusion? 10? 20? The head in the sand approach won't work. The "Microsoft Shill" theory doesn't hold water.

    No, it is time for the Linux community to address these issues and bring Linux back up to the level of Windows.

    And by the way, I'm a cybersecurity consultant, so I know what I'm talking about.

    1. Re:Mac OSX and Linux - face the facts by mangu · · Score: 5, Insightful
      How many independent reports have we seen that come to the same conclusion?


      I once read that Hitler ordered a report made, signed by a hundred scientists, proving that Einstein was wrong. When they asked Einstein about it, he answered "if I was wrong, one scientist alone would be able to prove it".

  10. Micorsoft? by philkar77 · · Score: 3, Funny

    from the article: "The Micorsoft Windows application is more secure than you think..."

  11. Patches do not equal problems. by djh101010 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Looking at my email inbox, I see a ton of junk generated by the Windows virus/worm of the week. Looking at my firewall logs, I see very little probing for any of the Unix exploits.

    When the difference in use of exploits is an order of magnitude or two higher for the 'doze stuff, it's hard to see how a mere "count of vulerabilities fixed" means much at all. The basic design differences between unix and 'doze are profound, which is why the 'doze exploits do so well.

  12. Article is an irrelevance by eamacnaghten · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The article is an irrelevance and does not deal with the real issues of security.

    If a sysadmin is lazy and security unaware, he will ALWAYS be cracked into and exploited regardless of the OS system used, Windows Linux whatever. At the same time if he is vigulant and security aware he will unlikely to be seriously cracked and his systems will be stable, again regardless of the OS involved.

    What I have found is that managing Linux properly is a lot easier and cheaper than managing the Windows OS's properly due to the better OS design in philosophy and security, and attitude of the OS maintainers.

    THAT to me is what is relevant.

    --

    Web Sig: Eddy Currents

  13. Don't dismiss this by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The facts are hard to look at, yet we all know that Linux, despite opinions to the contrary, has suffered from system holes. And to be quite frank, the fact that Mac OSX is leaking like a swiss cheeze should not come as a surprise to anyone.

    Linux is fallaible, but at least with open source we can find bugs and get rid of them quick, without waiting for patches. Windows is not as bad as OS X in this regard either.
    I find the statement Linux suppliers took longer to release patches. Is that true? I know security consious admins will patch themselves but is it true that vendors will igorne minoe bugs?

    Perhaps this is what the MS reps meant when they said Linux was becoming morew like windows.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  14. Again Windows only vs. RedHat/SuSE plus apps? by Knuckles · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't see it metnioned in the article, and neither can I find the relevant stuff at secunia.com, but this is the first question I want to answered before I spend another 10 seconds on this: do the numbers actually compare Windows with RedHat/SuSE stripped down to what a plain Windows install does, or do they yet again include all the security advisories for the 3.000 (or whatever) packages included with the distros?

    --
    "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    1. Re:Again Windows only vs. RedHat/SuSE plus apps? by robin_j · · Score: 5, Informative
      I can't see it metnioned in the article, and neither can I find the relevant stuff at secunia.com, but this is the first question I want to answered before I spend another 10 seconds on this: do the numbers actually compare Windows with RedHat/SuSE stripped down to what a plain Windows install does, or do they yet again include all the security advisories for the 3.000 (or whatever) packages included with the distros?

      The list of advisories for RedHat AS 3 is listed at the bottom and currently it contains 51 advisories and what they were issued for. I copied the list and sorted them so here you can see a list of exactly what they included:
      CVS
      ethereal
      FreeRADIUS
      gaim
      glibc
      gnupg
      httpd
      iproute
      ipsec-tools
      kdelibs
      kdepim
      kernel
      krb5
      lftp
      LHA
      libpng
      libxml2
      mod_python
      mod_ssl
      mozilla
      Mutt
      NetPBM
      net-snmp
      nfs-utils
      OpenOffice
      OpenSSL
      PWLib
      Quagga
      rsync
      slocate
      squid
      squirrelmail
      sysstat
      tcpdump
      utempter
      XFree86

      As you can see a lots of these are what might be called non-OS components. I've had a quick look at XP Home and it doesn't even seem to include issues with IE which according to MS is an integral part of the OS unlike Linux and Mozilla, yet they happily bundled them together.

      Strange that..........
  15. what does it prove? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Mac OS X does not stand out as particularly more secure than the competition, according to Secunia.

    The proportion of critical bugs was also comparable with other software - 33% of the OS X vulnerabilities were "highly" or "extremely" critical by Secunia's reckoning, compared with 30% for XP Professional and 27% for SLES 8 and just 12% for Advanced Server 3. OS X had the highest proportion of "extremely critical" bugs at 19%.

    Oh, okay, well, by MY reckoning, none of the OS X vulnerabilities were "highly" or "extremely" critical, therefore by MY reckoning, OS X is the most secure of them all!

    These studies analyze the statistics of the security advisories and attempt to draw conclusions. I don't see the value of it.

    Here's what I do: I just *assume* that all operating systems and software is insecure (unless djb wrote it, heh). After all, I'm constantly updating FreeBSD, Gentoo, and Windows, all the time, anyway.

    Since it only takes ONE show-stopper bug to let in an attacker, it really doesn't matter to me how *many* bugs each OS has.

    In my experience, the easiest OS to upgrade is OS X. However I don't manage any production OS X servers, just my own computers, so take that with a grain of salt.

    Next easiest is Gentoo. You can upgrade just the components you need, BUT it's a little hard to separate the security fixes from the non-security fixes (they are working on that though).

    Next is FreeBSD. Like Gentoo, it's hard to pick out just the security updates, but they are working on that too. Rebuilding the base OS is time-consuming and risky, so FreeBSD gets a mark for that.

    Next is Windows. Too GUI-oriented, and service packs are too complex and cause breakage.

    However we do manage to keep all machines up to date and implement layered security (firewall, network IDS, host IDS [tripwire], remote syslog, log monitoring.......)

    1. Re:what does it prove? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Oh, okay, well, by MY reckoning, none of the OS X vulnerabilities were "highly" or "extremely" critical, therefore by MY reckoning, OS X is the most secure of them all!

      How can you not find arbitrary remote code execution from a web browser highly critical? It meant that if a bad guy hacked a website popular with Mac users, they could take control of many machines potentially without their users noticing - just like the problems Windows has.

  16. The solution is clear ... by operagost · · Score: 3, Funny
    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  17. Straight from the horse's mouth by paranode · · Score: 5, Informative

    These are the statistics that really matter:

    Secunia Virus Statistics

    Of course you'll notice the common Win32. in front of all of them.

    1. Re:Straight from the horse's mouth by JohnFromCanada · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "These are the statistics that really matter:
      Secunia Virus Statistics"

      Uh, no there not. Viruses in many cases stem from exploits in the underlying operating system. If there are exploits in the OS and it is worthwhile virus writers will start programming/scripting viruses for Mac. The fact that they continue to hold such a low market share makes it really unnecessary for a virus writer to target them, when they can infect 100000 times the amount of machines on a Windows OS. Exploits can lead to viruses and are easily just as problematic as without the exploit there would be no virus. Furthermore, Apple has been incredibly slow at releasing updates and fixes in the past. Unlike what all the Apple marketers want you to believe their OS is easily vulnerable just like all others. MS may be the worst but that is yet to be proven as they hold such a dominant position in the market that there is virtually no effort to produce viruses for the other platforms. Security takes effort and knowledge no matter what platform you are on.

    2. Re:Straight from the horse's mouth by valmont · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All this rambling about OS X's lack of security is moot. Here is the only factor that matters:

      A DEFAULT INSTALLATION OF THE CONSUMER-LEVEL VERSION OF MAC OS X (that ships with every mac) HAS ABSOLUTELY ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, NOTHING, NOT ONE NETWORK SERVICE ENABLED BY DEFAULT.

      There's no way you can remotely own a default installation of Mac OS X.

      Take a deep breath and re-run that sentence to yourself in your head.

      Plug a default installation of XP (that ships with every PC) on any open network, you're owned within seconds. It's that simple.

      Statistics are pointless when not scoped around what they really mean and their impact. So here's me doing everyone's job:

      As a consumer-level operating system, Mac OS X, since day 1, and up until today, has always been, and remains FAR MORE SECURE than windows. Because the consumer-level version of Mac OS X, also known as "Mac OS X Client" does not unnecessarily enable by default any services, because the vast majority of users don't need'em, and the few who do can turn them on easily. Windows could have done that at least since 2001 and heydays of CodeRed and Nimda, yet never bothered to take this very very VERY simple measure. This is your first basic most simple, strongest line of security: if you don't need it, don't even turn it on. Be humble about the software you run, and understand that in may in fact be vulnerable, at the very least, to buffer overflows. APPLE HAS GROKKED THAT FROM DAY ONE, MICROSOFT NEVER DID, though i'm hoping SP2 will turn all that useless crap off. Saying that Apple has been lagging in releasing security updates is simply untrue. They've addressed all real ones very fast.

      Now, as a server-level operating system, as far as security goes, it's all in the hands of a systems administrator. All services that run natively to the operating system are, in theory, at the very least, vulnerable to buffer overflows. And this goes regardless of which operating system you use. But frankly, if I was to admin a server, I'd still go with OS X, because I'd know that pretty-much all network services it runs come from the open-source community, if Apple is too slow to release a patch, I'll have known way ahead of time by keeping on-top of advisories and reading workarounds and solutions from the open-source community. If I'm running windoz 2003, I'm at the mercy of microsoft.

  18. Junk Science by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The statistics, based on a database of security advisories for more than 3,500 products during 2003 and 2004

    The proportion of critical bugs was also comparable with other software - 33% of the OS X vulnerabilities were "highly" or "extremely" critical by Secunia's reckoning, compared with 30% for XP Professional and 27% for SLES 8 and just 12% for Advanced Server 3. OS X had the highest proportion of "extremely critical" bugs at 19%.


    This research tells you nothing about how secure an OS is. The number of security advisories has a lot to do with how diligent the OS manufacturer is in informing the public about security problems. For all we know Apple could just be a lot better about airing its dirty laundry than microsoft. I would assume that due to the open source model, the statistcs on SUSE were fairly accurate.
    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:Junk Science by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Spin it however you want, you're just as wrong as anyone in MSFT's marketting dept.

      Not spinning it. Just saying that there's no data here. My statement "For all we know Apple could just be a lot better about airing its dirty laundry than microsoft." was merely to demonstrate how these results could be used to prove anything, and therefore have no value.

      The biggest security hole on any machine is the person administrating it. No OS is immune to a moron.

      I agree completely.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  19. Counting advisories is skewed by upsidedown_duck · · Score: 5, Interesting


    One problem with counting only advisories is simply that there are different levels of transparency to users and developers among Windows XP, Linux, Solaris, and Mac OS X. One thing the study doesn't mention (which is unknowable, so they conveniently brush it off as unimportant) is how many covered-up or known-only-by-crackers vulnerabilities exist in each platform.

    Also, why didn't the study mention OpenBSD? What about default configurations? Where the documented vulnerabilities always relevant or were they very obscure (e.g., service X used by three people in Greenland)?

    I think this article smells biased.

    --
    -- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
  20. They neglect to mention.. by EMR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That OS X doesn't have any network service running when first installed!!.. Nothing, nada, zilch, zippo.. In order to get exploited you need to have something running that accepts connections.. The default install of the Mac OS X doesn't have a thing. Where as Windows has way too much enabled and exposed.. Most linux systems now days, while they may have some things running, most are only listenting to the internal host (not accessible outside the computer) and they default enable the firewall.

  21. Somebody explain to me... by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Somebody explain to me how this article supports the claims that have been based on it.

    ``Windows XP Professional saw 46 advisories in 2003-2004, with 48% of vulnerabilities allowing remote attacks and 46% enabling system access, Secunia said.

    <snip>

    SuSE Linux Enterprise Server (SLES) 8 had 48 advisories in the same period, with 58% of the holes exploitable remotely and 37% enabling system access.

    <snip>

    Mac OS X does not stand out as particularly more secure than the competition, according to Secunia.

    Of the 36 advisories issued in 2003-2004, 61% could be exploited across the internet and 32% enabled attackers to take over the system.''

    So, Windows XP and SLES had about the same number of vulnerabilities, but SLES manages to keep them out of the vital parts better. Mac OS X has had significantly (about 30%) fewer vulnerabilities, with the percentage of vulnerabilities leading to system level access on par with SLES.

    What this says to me is that _if_ the detection ratio for all systems is the same (which I don't believe, but without this assumption, you can't say anything), WinXP is the worst, and OS X the most secure. This is exactly opposite to what is claimed.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  22. Doesn't change the facts... by nattt · · Score: 4, Informative

    Statistics don't change the facts that after running Mac OS X since it's inception, I've not had one OS X virus, or any of these exploits used against my machines. And the stats don't take into account not just how quickly a patch is released, but how quickly the users of that OS patch it.

    --
    -- oldthinkers unbellyfeel ingsoc
  23. Re:How respectable are these guys? by maximilln · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Secunia, IMHO, is a respectable security source.

    I admonish the following:

    Security databases are largely fed with information from people working on open source code. It is much easier to find a logic fault in source code than to notice a bug and reverse engineer its origin in proprietary code. When I mangle entries for security databases the majority are for open source code. By and large the security databases are weighted in such a fashion that makes open source code look less secure.

    When I last looked at my Windows Update history on my machine at work, there were no fewer than 10 security patches and, going to the MS website, each one patched several security holes in this/that/the other. None of these will ever be documented in databases like Secunia because MS doesn't release the technical information. Secunia only lists the exploits which users in the field have found and submitted.

    So relax, people. The article may be inflammatory and perhaps the head of Secunia should be shoulder-checked for 3 hours straight on the soccer field, but the Linux OS is still outperforming the competition.

    --
    +++ATHZ 99:5:80
  24. Black and White by INeededALogin · · Score: 4, Informative

    as a Mac OSX user I have to defend my lil OS that could.

    This poll does not take into affect the time to resolution, effect of exploit, and how hard it was to actually perform the exploit. Honestly, all software has bugs, all software has exploits it is the result of those exploits that I am more concerned with. Quite often Apple finds and fixes exploits before their are programs in the wild to exploit them. The same goes for Open-Source software which I am sure that some of the OSX advisories were a result of given Apples embrace of OSS.

    Ask an Apple user how many Viruses, pop-ups, and unexplained daemons they have had on their system. The number will almost always be 0.

  25. Potential study problem by Synn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The study compares security alerts between OSes, but one problem with that is that at least under Linux vendors not only release alerts for the core OS, but for applications as well.

    If The Gimp has a security issue a Linux vendor will issue an alert for it.

    If Photoshop has a security issue, MS won't inform you.

    Also most alerts I see for Linux are pro-active, someone finding a bug that may be exploitable. Most alerts I see for MS are reactive, pluging a hole that has been exploited. That's the primary difference between open and closed source software. Not the number of bugs found, but when they're found and how fast they get fixed.

  26. Its not the system, its the admin by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    90% of security is the administrator. So it really doesnt matter how secure the 'system' is as a good admin can make most anything secure.

    That said, most 'windows admins' are home users ( by percentage ) that have NO clue what they are doing...

    Home *nix admins tend to have more clue..

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  27. Just counting by miraclemax · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They're just counting bug fixes. And counting how many are labeled critical. Well, that still doesn't factor in, at all, how easy it is to exploit. Fact is, if you try to run a system level program on Mac OSX, it STILL will ask for admin password. So a program can't be run on your machine in kernel space without your knowledge. Windows seems to have been made for just this purpose. This study is laughable. It's just a count the bug fixes garbage. Linux has more fixes and updates because open source is more honest. How often have we heard of M$ waiting six months to release fixes that they knew about? How many holes are there that the public doesn't know about?

  28. Still not accurate by signe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Once again, we have someone comparing Windows with RedHat, while not taking into account that RedHat is comprised of many many additional applications that don't have equivalents in the Windows install. Not to mention many server applications (Apache, bind, sendmail, rsync, etc.) that enable the remote access that many of the security vulnerabilities use. I would wager that OS X is in a similar situation (when compared with Windows).

    Let's have one of these companies do a real test. Where they take a Windows install, and then a RedHat (or SuSE) install crafted to match it as closely as possible. No servers, Mozilla installed on the Linux system. Just the basics. Then count the vulnerabilities. It will tell a much different story.

    -Todd

    --
    "The details of my life are quite inconsequential..."
  29. Correlation vs Mechanism by laudney · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In research, it's vital to differentiate between correlation and mechanism. Stating that Linux and Mac OS/X are less secure than Windows based on kindergarten-level integer comparison is correlation: i.e. following/duplicating superficial attributes of known objects in hope of getting the same results in other objects. This is almost always baseless and useless. It's more important to undertand the underlying hidden reasons, or mechanisms: Windows security problems stem from awful designs in OS, such as integration of all sorts of applications into kernel space for speed acceleration. Whilst Linux and Mac OS/X security problems are mostly from mis-configurations.

  30. Security reporting worse than you ever imagined by Frater+219 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The reported study discusses the number and claimed severity of official security advisories for different systems. The factitious claims being made do not address the following problems:

    Different suppliers report vulnerabilities differently. Consider every "cumulative update" you've seen, and every "multiple vulnerabilities in $product" advisory from CERT. A supplier which is more honest and meticulous about vulnerability reporting may have more advisories but better security -- while one which batches up several bugs in a single advisory will underreport.

    A system which includes more software may have more advisories, even though most advisories do not affect most computers running that system. In Windows, a database server is a separate product whose advisories would not be counted against "Windows". Many Linux systems include at least two database servers, but they are not turned on by default. If a hole in MS SQL doesn't count against Windows, should one in mySQL count against Red Hat?

    Unpatched vulnerabilities may go for months without the release of an official advisory. For instance, a number of holes in Internet Explorer have been known and discussed within the security community well in advance of any official advisory from Microsoft.

    Systems which have better default system-wide security settings (e.g. packet filtering, services turned off by default) may have all kinds of "vulnerabilities" that can't actually be exploited. For instance, Mac OS X includes OpenSSH, but it's turned off until the user asks for it. A hole in OpenSSH cannot be exploited on a default-install Mac system.

    Leaving it up to the supplier to decide if something is a "vulnerability" or a "feature" leads to underreporting. Take CD autorun, for instance, which allows the installation of spyware when a (mostly-)audio CD is inserted into a Windows PC. A security-conscious user regards this as a vulnerability, but the supplier regards it as a beneficial feature.

    Some of the most common attacks -- such as viruses -- rely on social engineering, and on "features" that are not classed as "vulnerabilities". However, these attacks are also more prominent on some systems than on others. Any comparative assessment of security which discounts the most common attacks blinds itself to a wide segment of the security landscape.

  31. Anyone find it strange? by midifarm · · Score: 4, Interesting
    ...that in their super critical statistical analysis that he never actually gave a number of OS X incidents, just some vague percentages? No real specifics at all. I mean sure if OS X had 10 security holes and 6 were critical that you be 60%, whereas if XP had 100 holes with only 37 of those as critical it'd only be 37%. By that logic XP would be rock solid secure! This just seems like Apple bashing, and had they mentioned what percentage of the OS X holes were in common open source programs that may have been across the board amongst Linux/Unix systems? At least I can gather that if there's a hole in Windows that M$ is to blame for the bad code, not a class project from MIT!

    Peace

  32. Most secure OS: MacOS 9! by YouHaveSnail · · Score: 3, Funny

    Friends, it's clear from Secunia's own data that we should all switch back to MacOS 9, since Secunia knows of only one security issue for that OS.

    Friends, you just can't argue with pie charts.

  33. Re:Missing Stats? ??? by HiThere · · Score: 5, Informative

    All modern OS's suck from a security standpoint. Why? Because we've only really GIVEN A FUCK about security for the last half a decade or so. Before that 99% of the worlds PCs were by

    I don't know just where you were living, but Unix and Linux grew up on networked systems where multiple college students shared the same machines (well, Linux less than Unix here) because they were too expensive. Actually, Linux is almost an accidental beneficiary here. Linux used Unix as a role-model, and Unix grew up being attacked by hackers who wanted to play Space-Invaders or Cave or Hunt the Wumpus when their school accounts wouldn't cover it. And by Phd candidates trying for a few more runs on their thesis project. It's true these weren't *remote* exploits. They were local ones...where the attacker didn't have priviledged access. But that's the basis of all security. Once you do that, all you have to do is make remote connections a special case of local access.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  34. Lies! Lies! Lies! by fname · · Score: 4, Informative
    I'll quote from the only true site for Mac news, As the Apple Turns:
    Notice also that Secunia yaps on about how, for Mac OS X, "of the 36 advisories issued in 2003-2004, 61 percent could be exploited across the Internet and 32 percent enabled attackers to take over the system"-- but never mentions how many could be exploited across the Internet to enable attackers to take over the system. Personally, we aren't much concerned about exploits that require local access to a Mac, because if anyone's climbing in through a window downstairs, we've got more important things to worry about than whether or not he can mess with our Finder preferences. We picked one of those advisories at random, noted that it's tagged with an impact of "System access" and a location of "From remote," and then scoped out the description of the flaws to find that the only ones listed that appear to allow "escalation of privileges" can only be exploited by "malicious, local users." So as long as we keep the doors locked at night and don't tick off our housemates to the point of digital vandalism, we're apparently all right.
    Please read the entire article, as it thoroughly points out the many flaws to this study, and points to other articles where Secunia makes other ridiculous OS X security claims. Oh yeah, and the site is damn funny too.
  35. Here are the numbers. by JPriest · · Score: 3, Interesting

    XP Professional: 46 advisories in 2003-2004
    48% remote attack
    46% granting system access

    SuSE Linux Enterprise Server (SLES) 8 had 48 advisories in the same period,
    58% remote attack
    37% granting system access

    Red Hat's Advanced Server 3 had 50 advisories in the same period - despite the fact that counting only began in November of last year.
    66% remote attack
    25% granting system access

    Mac OS X 36 advisories
    61% remote attackers
    32% granting system access

    --
    Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
    1. Re:Here are the numbers. by phillymacmike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Time to slashdot my favorite soap opera. This article, a week old already, is a hatchet job.

      See Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics

      The conclusion:(quote)

      Faithful viewer jfletch pointed out another Techworld article from almost two months ago that also quoted Secunia and claimed that Mac OS X's security problem at the time "makes Microsoft's current Sasser problems look no more than a nasty nip." (Of course, two months later Sasser still turns up in articles on Google News posted just hours ago, but who's counting?) Now, far be it from us to claim that there's some sort of Techworld-Secunia conspiracy intended to undermine Apple's attempt to gain an entry into the enterprise market, because we would never-- oh, who are we kidding? There's some sort of Techworld-Secunia conspiracy intended to undermine Apple's attempt to gain an entry into the enterprise market. We've been jawing about this incessantly for about four days straight, now, so determining motive is left as an exercise for the viewer. Follow the money!

      --
      _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _>8
      Too many errors in one post (make fewer).
  36. Re:The summary is missleading by maximilln · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Clearly, the article is simply saying that all the OSes are equally insecure.

    But the article doesn't mention that Secunia is stocked primarily with vuln information which comes from the open source sector. Vuln information from the proprietary sector is reliant on the proprietary company releasing all of the properly arranged information to make a proper entry in Secunia's database. In the OSS community, every single vuln in every single patch which you got from Windowsupdate would receive a separate entry. It doesn't because MS doesn't collaborate to create these entries. By default the Secunia database is light on actual vulns for MS-Windows. Primarily the vulnerabilities in Secunia's database which are relevent to Windows will focus on third-party software manufacturers.

    --
    +++ATHZ 99:5:80
  37. A ripped text from the wonderful "appleturns" by Biotech9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unrepentant Mac Apologism time! It seems that there are some "statistics" flying around that can be interpreted to mean that Mac OS X is, practically speaking, no more secure than Windows, and we certainly can't let that sort of stuff go unchecked, now, can we? Whether it's true or not, we mean. So we feel it's our sworn duty to cast all sorts of aspersions on the reliability of said stats and on the character and competence of those who compiled them. Of course, you'll have to keep in mind that absolutely nothing we say on the subject carries any weight whatsoever, since, far from being experts on computer security, our real expertise is in the field of making vegetables out of Play-Doh. (Corn on the cob is our specialty. We can get it all bumpy and everything.) However, while we're not security experts, we've seen one on TV; surely that counts for something.

    Anyway, it's like this: faithful viewer C. J. Corbett tipped us off to a Techworld article last week with the ominous title of "Mac OS X security myth exposed" which leads off with this oh-so-fair-and-balanced sentence: "Windows is more secure than you think, and Mac OS X is worse than you ever imagined." See, security firm Secunia claims to have compiled some honest-to-goodness statistics proving once and for all that choosing Mac OS X over Windows is your surest path to having some scary 'net dude invade your system, swipe your financial data, and start leering at digital photos of your family members in an... unsavory manner.

    How is this possible? Well, numbers don't lie, and while Windows XP Professional clocked "46 advisories in 2003-2004, with 48 percent of vulnerabilities allowing remote attacks and 46 percent enabling system access," Mac OS X racked up 36 such advisories, with 61 percent remotely exploitable and 32 percent allowing the takeover of the system. See? Worse than you ever imagined. It's like a wedge of Swiss cheese with a shotgun blast through the middle or something. Meanwhile, Windows users will no doubt be thrilled to hear that their virus-ridden, spyware-loaded, worm-propagating systems are more secure than they think. Good for them.

    There are just a few problems with this argument, however. The first is the claim that Mac OS X isn't much better than Windows XP Professional because it had 36 security advisories compared to Windows's 46. Maybe we're fresh off the turnip truck or something, but 22% fewer advisories sounds quite a bit better to us. Also, if you actually look at the data to which Techworld refers, it's not 36 advisories for Mac OS X at all; it's 33. (Apparently Techworld decided to go back to 2002 to fetch its reported number.) Granted, the Windows number is also 45 instead of 46-- yeesh, Techworld; fact-check much?-- but even so, now we're talking about nearly 27% fewer security advisories for Mac OS X than for Windows XP Professional.

    Now take a look at the advisories themselves, and notice how no fewer than eleven of those 33 advisories (that's a third, for the mathematically inept) are titled "Mac OS X Security Update Fixes Multiple Vulnerabilities" or something similar. Yes, in its advisory count, Secunia is including those advisories it generated just to report that Apple had fixed something. Does anyone else find it a little odd that Secunia penalizes Apple for fixing problems, including ones that were fixed so quickly that Secunia had never found out about them in the first place? (While they may describe a flaw and immediately note the presence of a patch, none of the Windows advisories appears to exist simply to announce that Redmond had fixed a bunch of holes.)

    Notice also that Secunia yaps on about how, for Mac OS X, "of the 36 advisories issued in 2003-2004, 61 percent could be exploited across the Internet and 32 percent enabled attackers to take over the system"-- but never mentions how many could be exploited across the Internet to enable attackers to take over the system. Personally, we aren't much concerned about exploits that require local access to a Mac, because if any

  38. That depends upon how you count it. by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the Forrester report referenced in that article, they only STARTED counting from the time Microsoft PUBLICLY admitted to a problem.

    Which, in many cases, was when Microsoft had a patch ready.

    But www.eeye.com had reported security holes to Microsoft for MONTHS before a patch was made available.

    In other words, if Microsoft NEVER admitted PUBLICLY to a security hole, that security hole would NEVER be counted in the Forrester report.

    http://www.eeye.com/html/research/upcoming/index .h tml

    For the current listing.

    With Open Source software, the vulnerability is usually discussed on the mailing list.

    So, if a hole is discovered in Linux, and discussed on the mailing list and a patch is released 48 hours later.....

    And then Red Hat releases a .rpm 24 hours later...

    Forrester would count that as a 3 day delay.

    You take the medium threat from www.eeye.com that is 49 days overdue (actually informed 109 days ago) and Microsoft releases a patch the same day Microsoft admits to the hole....

    Forrester would count that a 1 day or less delay.

  39. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics by cryptochrome · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This article is complete garbage. Comparing proportions means nothing - particularly since they always add up to 100%! What matters is the actual number of exploits, and how likely they are to occur. The parent is absolutely right.

    --

    ---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?

  40. Let's translate those statistics to medicine by borjam · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wondet what would be the Secunia diagnosis in this case:

    Patient A's clinical history:

    Headache
    Influenza
    A small scar in his hace
    A broken arm

    Patient B:

    Stomach cancer

    Which of the two patients is in a worse state? According to Secunia, patient A would be really bad, he has three lines in his medical record!!!!

    Amazing, indeed

  41. But isn't that contradictory? by khasim · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Somehow, the rest of your post does not support, and seems to contradict, your initial statement.

    A "respectable security source" that knowingly mis-counts vulnerabilities and then publishes an inflammatory "report" based upon such?

    That sounds like the opposite of "respectable" to me.

  42. Proof that the results are BS by schmiddy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I was looking at Secunia's Virus Info Page .. right under the graph it says "Based on Information delivered by BullGuard".

    That set off a few bells... Know what BullGuard is? It's spyware that happens to come bundled with Kazaa. Amusingly, you can see BullGuard on Kazaa's *cough* No Spyware Policy Page, where they try to pretend that their bundled software isn't spyware.

    --
    http://cltracker.net -- powerful craigslist multi-city search
  43. # Advisories != # Vulnerabilities != Security Risk by Trevin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are two major things wrong with this article, which have been touched on by other posters. One is that the number of vulnerabilities is different than the number of advisories, because advisories can cover multiple vulnerabilities.

    The second is that (as other posters have covered) Linux distributors post advisories and bug fixes for all software bundled with their distribution, not just the kernel and core libraries. Looking at the list of MS Windows XP advisories, all I see are the core components, with the glaring omission of Internet Explorer (which these days is in fact a core component of the operating system).

  44. Re:LM Hash Info by pegr · · Score: 4, Informative

    For those of you still on a Microsoft platform: I've heard that L0phtcrack works wonders reversing an LM hash on modern hardware.

    I've used LC and you're right, it works pretty well. It's also ungodly expensive and the serial number is tied to your hardware, so using it on another machine requires tech support "blessing". LC5 is licensed in truly bizarre ways, and did I mention that it's ungodly expensive?

    For the same or better brute forcing speed, lower cost, no hassles moving to another machine, and generally a more polite program, try SamInside Best $40 LM hash cracker around.

    Now for a "free" instant password cracker, use Rainbow Tables, a db of password/hashes that does all the brute forcing up front. For details, check out my journal. I'm soliciting participants to help generate the 128GB of data needed. Other than the pain of generating and storing all that data, it's free and extremely fast.

  45. Ok all you technicality asshats by paranode · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The point is that PRACTICALLY, Microsoft is the most insecure operating system because you cannot hook a default install up to the internet without getting 20 worms by the time you patch it up.

    In THEORY, you are correct that it is all about exploits and there are possibly exploitable holes just as much in Linux or Mac. Difference? In the real world, they are exploited much less on the latter two. Also, critical issues are fixed MUCH faster in the latter two leading to a less vulnerable system.

    MOREOVER, these assclowns count a vulnerability in every piece of free software as a Linux vulnerability and only count core vulnerabilities in Microsoft. Similarly for Mac probably. So yes, exploits are what matters, but in the REAL WORLD there are more exploits for Windows and more boxes constantly being exploited, so your point is moot.

  46. Telnet? You're missing the point by minion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Until telnetd is totally removed (not just turned off) from Linux, Linux will not be secure. There are just too many exploits involving telnet to take Linux seriously.

    Bad example. There's a telnet service in Windows too.


    When was the last time telnet was exploitable? telnet is sniffable. Big deal, so is imap, pop3, smtp, http, you name it. Sniffing should not count against an OS - its a problem with the protocol, which is inherint to all internet based OSes. Heck, lets just say anything that uses TCP/IP is too insecure for internet access.

    Here's an example:

    RHSA-2004:174-09
    Fix: utempter local exploit.

    Ok. A local exploit. Granted, an exploit, but still, its a local exploit. This is what these so called "secuity" groups need to realize - webservers on the DMZ typically don't have local access for joebob to login to. Typically, they have ports 80,443, and maybe 22 open. So now, all of those 60+ exploits attributed to Red Hat become 0 (thats Zero, with a 0). True, Red Hat had more published advisories than Windows did in the same time period, but Windows didn't ship with nearly the amount of software Red Hat did, and no "sysadmin" is going to put a box on the DMZ, running every service on the box, with no firewall. It just doesn't happen.

    So all of these so called security groups can shove it, because thats not real world security. Why don't they do a study on how many linux/unix sys admins patch their boxes diligently vs how many windows admins bothered to patch their boxes with patches available months before code red and other internet problems plagued the internet?

    PS: On Windows, it'd be port 3389 (remote desktop), not port 22... And BOTH services (ssh and rdp) have had remote exploits available, so you can't retort with the "ssh is insecure" BS.

    --

    -- If we don't stand up for our rights, now, there will be no right to stand up for them later.
  47. Vulnerabilities vs Advisories by AYeomans · · Score: 5, Informative
    Note very carefully, they count advisories only once, even though they may include multiple vulnerabilities.

    The Windows XP Pro list includes:

    • Microsoft Windows 14 Vulnerabilities
    • Microsoft Windows RPC/DCOM Multiple Vulnerabilities
    • Microsoft Windows ASN.1 Library Integer Overflow Vulnerabilities
    • Microsoft Windows RPCSS Service DCOM Interface Vulnerabilities
    contain 14 + 4 + 2 + 3 = 23 vulnerabilities but Secunia only count 4 advisories. So the count is now 65 acknowledged vulnerabilities for XP Pro. Not including those silently fixed, nor the 38 vulnerabilities in Internet Explorer 6 alone.

    Actually, Secunia tend to publish alerts based the vendor bulletins. There are better sources for collated vulnerability information, such as Sintelli (free) or TruSecure (fee) which have far higher totals.

    --
    Andrew Yeomans