Pilgrimage 2004 American Demoparty Announced

Vote Demoparty 2004! by Commander+Trollco · 2004-07-12 17:13 · Score: 5, Funny

No word on candidates yet.

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http://persianews.on.nimp.org/?u=Tar_Baby

One Word: by yuvtob · 2004-07-12 17:16 · Score: 2, Funny

Demo "eXistenZ" - captial x, capital z - new from Pilgrimage.

Re:One Word: by Orick · 2004-07-13 04:37 · Score: 2, Funny

I can't attend. Anyone willing to at least send me the demo of the event so I can play the first few levels?

Re:hmm by scrame · 2004-07-12 17:25 · Score: 1, Offtopic

No, the question is: When are they going to start an emulated amiga demo competition and bring it back to the old school?

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Scrame: Sunglasses are for assholes.

The Product 3 by radd0 · 2004-07-12 17:34 · Score: 1

Yes, there will be. Your article is officially overdue. :-)

Re:hmm by scrame · 2004-07-12 17:37 · Score: 1

Why do you need it emulated? There are still amiga compos you know?

Virtual Overclocking?

--
Scrame: Sunglasses are for assholes.

Re:hmm by radd0 · 2004-07-12 17:39 · Score: 2, Informative

Pilgrimage 2004 will be hosting a classic computer museum featuring demos running on original C64 and Amiga hardware (amongst several other oldschool machines), so an emulator should not be necessary. :-)

What's with the hotel listing? by AltaMannen · 2004-07-12 17:42 · Score: 3, Funny

It's a demo party, so why would they have hotel listings.. people sleep or something?

Re:What's with the hotel listing? by Dion · 2004-07-12 19:10 · Score: 1

They are US'ians, remember?
In europe people either don't sleep (which is cool as long as your mom drives) or crash whereever they feel like.
At Assembly people usually sleep in a separate area of the hall.
At Scene Event people sleep in tents.

--
-- To dream a dream is grand, but to live it is divine. -- Leto ][

Re:hmm by Knos · 2004-07-12 17:54 · Score: 1

What would the point in that? If you want to make a point by showing off a particularly quick demo, you do it on native hardware. If the native hardware is not fast enough, you use another.

I don't quite see what that would achieve to release an "amiga" demo that wouldn't work on existing "amiga" hardware.

--
. . . . . . . .. . . . . . . .
may u!sh 2 sm!le at dz!z bad nn.!m!tat!ion

Do I like Demos? by krahd · 2004-07-12 17:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yep, actually I don't know. Does it make sense to like something just because it is very hard to achieve? Is it art? Would it be the same a party or compo about who makes the biggest pile of cards? Or is it a sport? (ain't it what athletics is all about? doing useless stuff better/faster than the others?).

What bothers me is that offline rendering achieves much better graphics, so, again: what's the point? Is it beauty? Why then don't go offline? Realtime rendering obvius strength relies on interactivity, but demos are not interactive...

That said, I think I do like demos. I download'em mourning for the day I'll be so rich that I'll travel to every demoparty which looks cool...

--krahd

p.s. I love sports too, the list goes that way: sex, surfing, reading, football, eating are top 5 things of the world :)
p.p.s. football is what most-of-you call soccer. Do you know why? 'cos it's original name was "Footbal Association" (that's where the A of FIFA comes from). So soccer comes from asSOCiation

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mod me up scottie!

Re:Do I like Demos? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 18:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

the how you do something is as important as the result. traditionally, the demoscene has not been about the artistic value of the created works perse, though as the medium has evolved, it's focus has shifted more towards that. but still, a lot of it is about just being *able* to things. like, being *able* to make a functional 3d engine work on a C64, being *able* to fit a fully functioning texture generator, softsynth, 3d engine plus effects and 2d effects into 64KB.

art is more than about just the way it looks, wether we're talking about computer art or traditional art.
Re:Do I like Demos? by Knos · 2004-07-12 18:06 · Score: 4, Interesting

In a more didactic way:

First, the scene is a community, so it is not so much about demos than about the way they are created and shared.

One of the main values is efficiency. People can and will distribute demos and intros easily because they are rather small and efficient. Inefficiency (pre-rendered movies) hurts redistribution.

Secondly, by having to be run realtime, demos emphasize code over any other sort of more static methods to create visuals/music. It is in that sense necessarly a generative discipline, whose medium is the manipulation of information and the emergence of concrete visuals / sounds from an abstract material, the code.

Thirdly, well, the scene is no more interesting than tractor pulling or poker championships, I guess it does look very similar at times. It plays the computer equivalent to what graffiti plays for the visual arts:
- a style
- a pop movement
- a new medium

--
. . . . . . . .. . . . . . . .
may u!sh 2 sm!le at dz!z bad nn.!m!tat!ion
Re:Do I like Demos? by Silh · 2004-07-12 18:24 · Score: 1

I've always likened demos vs pre-rendered movies to theatre vs film, seeing how theatre is done real-time, whereas film is not. Yet there are certain aspects of both which appeal to different people, though obviously not to everyone.

Perhaps there is something about it being created at the time you are watching. Or maybe it's about working with limited resources. Or to some the appeal is in how it was done rather than what you see.

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-- Silhouette
Re:Do I like Demos? by Troed · 2004-07-12 20:25 · Score: 1

When demos were popular (C64, Amiga, Atari ST) you did everything realtime because you couldn't do it offline - not enough storage space neither in ram nor on disk!

Oh - and a lot of demos were interactive.

/me - Red Fox of Sync

--
it's in my head
Re:Do I like Demos? by Renegade+Chemist · 2004-07-12 21:30 · Score: 1

Hmmmm.. I think now would be a good time to point out an apparent malfunction in your PC hardware. To be more specific, something seems to be dreadfully wrong with the cable which connects your PC to the internet.. This kind of situation usually needs immediate attention so what you'll probably want to do is, without necessarily shutting down the machine, carefully unplug both ends of the cable. You're probably looking for a RJ45 cable; looks like a telephone plug but a little wider.. You'll know which one when you see it, there should only be one chord connecting your modem to your PC. Despite what many may think, for most people this cable is quite redundant and often more a curse than a blessing so after unplugging it, if at all possible, the best way to go may be to dispose of it and make sure no cable or one like it ever assumes its function again. If you are using an internal modem, you may have to get someone to assist you in removing it from your machine and disposing of it in a responsible fashion. Remember: if you are good to mother nature, mother nature will be good to you! Thanks and good day!

I see Microsoft by Trogre · 2004-07-12 18:09 · Score: 1, Interesting

... is a major sponsor.

I guess there's not much hope of seeing Linux demos this year.

*sigh*

--
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife

Re:I see Microsoft by akaiONE · 2004-07-12 18:29 · Score: 1

If you head over to The Gathering wich is one of the top four Demo/Computer-parties in the world, held every easter here in Norway you will see that TG also has Microsoft as a huge sponsor, but that does not mean that there was no Linux-demos at TG04, TG03, TG02.. etc. Actually, the number of Linux/Amiga-based demos keep steadily rising at TG. If you have a peek: here you'll see that there is 3 Linux-FastIntro-demos and Four Win32-Fast-Intro-demos, hence, nearly equal numbers, and at TG2003, Microsoft was a masjor sponsor, as they've been for the past four years or more. Hope this helps you keep hope for Linux-based demos :)

--
"-Who said sit down?!"
-- S. Ballmer @ MSDC 2003.
Re:I see Microsoft by Trogre · 2004-07-13 10:46 · Score: 1

...you'll see that there is 3 Linux-FastIntro-demos and Four Win32-Fast-Intro-demos, hence, nearly equal numbers...

Just took a look at them. I guess they were done in a big hurry. They're not really up to any kind of decent demo standard, Linux or otherwise. Crappier demos have been seen, but not by reliable witnesses.

With apologies to the Douglas Adams estate.

--
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Re:I see Microsoft by akaiONE · 2004-07-13 19:28 · Score: 1

Just took a look at them. I guess they were done in a big hurry. They're not really up to any kind of decent demo standard, Linux or otherwise. Crappier demos have been seen, but not by reliable witnesses.

Are you aware of the rules for these demo-compos? The FastIntro democompo with its content and goals are released AT the party, hence the main purpose is to show that you are able to meet the deadline and bring the content in line with the rules for the compo. Not to show off smooth graphical design skills, and to be honest, there is not really anything worse than a FastIntro-Compo. It's suppose to be Fast. On the other hand, a FastIntro-compo also lay strict limits on how much gui you can expect. Please see guidelines for the FastIntro democompo at TG2003 here. Also read up on what you need to do with a FastIntro democompo here. Hope this helps you to understand :)

--
"-Who said sit down?!"
-- S. Ballmer @ MSDC 2003.
Re:I see Microsoft by pahvant · 2004-07-14 03:59 · Score: 1

You "guess" completely wrong, but in a manner totally consistent with a dothead that engages in baseless MS bashing.

Did you even look at the results from last year? There was a FreeBSD demo released all while Microsoft sponsored us.

There won't be any linux demos as long as noone submits linux demos. The same is true for any other platform. Nowhere do we require that demos be on a specific platform. All you had to do was read our compo rules in order to learn that.

But hey, that would require actually knowing something before you dish out slurs. Have you thought of a career in journalism?
Re:I see Microsoft by Trogre · 2004-07-14 08:14 · Score: 1

Okay,

But just have a little think about why on earth someone like Microsoft would sponsor you.

To encourage innovation? I hope you're not that naive.

--
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Re:I see Microsoft by pahvant · 2004-07-14 11:13 · Score: 1

<sarcasm>Yes, there must be a conspiracy!</sarcasm>

Pffffffft.

They sponsored us because the organizers asked. Its no more complicated than that. All of the sponsors were asked to help and they did.

If anyone is "naive" here, it is your automatic assumption that everything done by MS is part of some evil conspiracy to suppress linux or open source or whatever you feel is your One, True, Valiant Cause. Even after your initial fallacious assumptions are pointed out as such and after it was pointed out that only a few seconds of clicking would have told you this is the case, you still "suspect" something else going on.

Re:hmm by scrame · 2004-07-12 18:10 · Score: 1

Its a joke, man. Sheesh.

--
Scrame: Sunglasses are for assholes.

That Teapot by 0racle · 2004-07-12 18:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

I always wondered why that teapot was a standard privative in 3d Studio Max. Also another siting they don't seem to have in there is the 3d pipes screen saver. If you changed the joint options to 'Mixed' on the 3d pipes screensaver in Windows and watch it for a while, some of the joints will be that teapot.

--
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."

Re:That Teapot by krahd · 2004-07-12 18:46 · Score: 1

The teapot whas the first object made entirely of cubic splines (IFRC in the university of Utah).

--krahd

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mod me up scottie!
Re:That Teapot by foobsr · 2004-07-12 22:12 · Score: 3, Informative

A Brief History of The Utah Teapot.

With dataset.

CC.

--
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
Re:That Teapot by mnemonic_ · 2004-07-12 22:13 · Score: 1

James Blinn's teapot, yes the same Blinn after which the shading algorithm is named. It's been a longtime sortof inside joke among the 3d graphics community.

Sorry kids... by joshamania · 2004-07-12 18:15 · Score: 1

...but 3D Studio Max killed this little revolution, imho. I'm sure the programming and the effort involved in producing that invitation was immense.

That being said, it's like watching Picasso draw with crayons.

Re:Sorry kids... by bVork · 2004-07-12 19:57 · Score: 1

You appear to be missing the point. A video made with 3D Studio Max can be more impressive graphically, yes, but it doesn't show any coding skills whatsoever. Programming something like a 64k demo (such as one with a realtime raytracer) with good graphics and nice audio is a much bigger feat than just rendering something in 3D Studio Max.
Re:Sorry kids... by DrStrangeLoop · 2004-07-12 23:26 · Score: 1

That being said, it's like watching Picasso draw with crayons.

exactly.
while you propably think of this comparison in a defamatory way, i think it expresses why i like watching demos quite nicely. it must have been pretty inspiring to watch pablo picasso draw one of his crayon [ok, rather coal, but you get the idea] scetches, since he as an artist just knew how to express something with very little effort. this, in my opinion, is also true for some of the best demos, which feature fx which are almost as nice as the best prerendered movies, but achieve this with just a few clever algorithms.

-strangeloop/feedface.com.
Re:Sorry kids... by joshamania · 2004-07-13 02:26 · Score: 1

Know what I'm missing?

I'm missing that "man, that's way freaking cool" coming out of my mouth when seeing new demos. That demo, while sort of nifty, didn't look appreciably better than the one the Future Crew (or whatever) did back in the day...I think I had a 486/66 to run it, with a VL Local Bus video card.

How's the saying go? The 30 year old who has never programmed in Assembler has no heart...the 30 year old who still programs in Assembler has no brain...
Re:Sorry kids... by vjouppi · 2004-07-13 06:22 · Score: 1

Future Crew did theirs in Pascal with some bits done in inline assembler.

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-Jope

What is a demo.... by kEnder242 · 2004-07-12 19:24 · Score: 1

What is a demo....

this is

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my associative arrays can kick your hash - TCL

PilgrImage by inio · 2004-07-12 20:03 · Score: 1

As long as it doesn't involve immersive VR games, I'm cool with it. Just don't make me worry about having an infected bioport.

Shouldn't it be... by ThePDW · 2004-07-12 21:46 · Score: 1

Coders, artists, musicians and enthusiasts from around the world will be turning out to learn, socialize... Shouldn't it be Coders, artists, musicians and enthusiasts from around the world will be turning out to learn to socialize... ;-)

the first north american demo party - NAID 95 by Technomancer · 2004-07-12 21:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

http://www.fusecon.com/pubs/txtfiles/naid95.txt
h ttp://www.scene.org/dir.php?dir=/parties/1995/nai d95

Re:the first north american demo party - NAID 95 by antibryce · 2004-07-14 05:12 · Score: 1

heh

a friend of mine from high school was just talking to me about NAID. I'd completely forgotten about it. The biggest difference between this demoparty and NAID is the fact that now I have money for airfare :)

I see a lot of.. by andr0meda · 2004-07-12 21:51 · Score: 1

..premature sighing when there hasn't even been a demoparty in the last 10 years, period.

If you US code monkey's are going to enjoy showing off your talent, then yes why not start commenting on the lack of sponsorship, the lack of linux, the lack of pinguins, the lack of sceners, the lack of productions, the lack of music, the lack of the good old days, the lack of easy miles to cross, the lack of holidays to spent, the lack of girls, the lack of money..

but hey, don't even think about hitting that keyboard with something constructive.. noooooo.....

--
With great power comes great electricity bills.

The US actually have a demoscene? :) by davidmcg · 2004-07-13 00:13 · Score: 1

Na, just joking.

Good luck on the demoparty. Looking forward to seeing (and hearing) the releases from it.

David McGuinness

Warning - Salt lake city, Daryl McBride.. by adeyadey · 2004-07-13 00:28 · Score: 1

All your demos are belong to us!

--
"You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"

Re:Warning - Salt lake city, Daryl McBride.. by fsterman · 2004-07-13 04:46 · Score: 1

There needs to be a REAL Linux conference in SLC, so I can incite a riot and burn down SCO.

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Is there anything better than clicking through Microsoft ads on Slashdot?
Re:Warning - Salt lake city, Daryl McBride.. by pahvant · 2004-07-14 04:09 · Score: 1

SCO isn't in Salt Lake City. They aren't even in Salt Lake County.

Salt Lake CIty? by Dan+the+Control+Guy · 2004-07-13 00:40 · Score: 1

Hope no one wants a late-nite drink!

--
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

Better graphics by AllenChristopher · 2004-07-13 00:53 · Score: 1

"What bothers me is that offline rendering achieves much better graphics,"

On the contrary, demos produce far better graphics in many, many cases. Download something like The Popular Demo and run it 1280x1024 on a nice new card... the result is vastly beyond anything you're going to get on a DVD.

60 frames a second, high-resolution graphics have an appeal that beats the Pixar alternative... either 480p blur on a DVD or 24 FPS shuddering in the movie theatre.

There's a sense of physical reality there that is more than just "how closely does this shading model reflect reality." Would you criticize a cut diamond because of its low poly count? In some ways, that simplicity and mathematical clarity is the appeal.

Of course, you have to do it properly, which is why I refer to The Popular Demo... the dancing figures made of mirrored glass completely obviate any talk of realism in favor of simply gorgeous animation. No stiff Final Fantasy movie soap-person has ever seemed so alive.

I guess the best parallel in the real world would be stained glass. Is a painting inherently better than stained glass just because it can come closer to photo-realism? Hardly.

Not the only US demoparty by scrm · 2004-07-13 01:19 · Score: 1

Pilgrimage 2004, the one and only American demoparty

What about the NAID parties (North American International Demoparty)? These were held in 1995 and 1996 and were very well regarded. Also check out the compulsory geek pics from the events.

There were a few more US parties, but I forgot the names. It's a damn shame the US doesn't have more of them. I remember it got very expensive for US demosceners to keep crossing the Atlantic to get to the parties in Finland and Denmark (not to mention forcing them to get a passport; something that the vast majority of Americans don't have!).

--
---- scrm

Re:Not the only US demoparty by relaying+denied · 2004-07-13 02:33 · Score: 1

NAID were in Canada. The only other US parties I know of are the Spring Break parties 1997-1999. Unless you count the #trax 10 year reunion. While demos were shown, it was not a competition but purely a social gathering.

I think the reason they proclaim the "Only American Party" is that in fact, it is the only one currently being held.

I went last year, competed, met some cool people, drank a bunch of beer, and had a good time. Evening driving all the way from Chicago, it was worth it. This year will be far superior with far greater interest, obviously better promotion and interest. Even in the demoscene itself, last years party flew under the radar.

People scoff... "Ha, US HAS a demoscene?" Well gee, if you weren't so apathetic, and participated more, it wouldn't be like that.
Re:Not the only US demoparty by pahvant · 2004-07-14 04:06 · Score: 1

NAID, Crash, Spring Break and Coma are all dead and don't happen anymore. There are no web pages for those parties where you can contact the organizers. There are no plans to revive any of these demoparties and continue them.

Unless you have a TARDIS, the only demoparty you'll be attending in North America is Pilgrimage. Pilgrimage is the only North American demoparty with a plan to be around for more than 2-3 years as a fluke. Pilgrimage is the only North American demoparty that has a functioning web page.

Pilgrimage organizers have never claimed it was the only demoparty to ever happen in North American. The organizers are well aware of the history of North American demoparties. However, the point is that those other parties are HISTORY not ongoing events you can still attend.

Re:hmm by relaying+denied · 2004-07-13 02:38 · Score: 1

Then bring one. Atari parties and entries are still very popular in Europe. Bring it here or shut up.

Re:Great, all the classic effects are in there by relaying+denied · 2004-07-13 02:46 · Score: 1

Not only was this a walk-through of classic effects, but many are copied/emulated from actual classic and well known demos.

I think many are listed in the .nfo. The spaceship you mention is of course Second Reality.

There are also hints at Cyboman (2 I think), Little Green Men, The Product... Aww hell I can't remember the rest, there are too many.

Mod it by Psyrg · 2004-07-13 14:55 · Score: 1

Orion's 'this is" is one of my favourite demos of all time. It has deep artistic stills, an excellent sound track and a beautiful black and white design.

Watch it. :)

Re:birthplace of modern computer graphics?! by pahvant · 2004-07-14 05:09 · Score: 1

5 seconds of googling for "history of computer graphics" would have answered your question in less time than it took you to post a baseless whine about it here.

Re:Too little, too late by pahvant · 2004-07-14 05:30 · Score: 1

The demoscene is completely orthogonal to open source software and/or linux. This business of "selling their soul to Microsoft" is just complete nonsense. Democoders just code for what's commonly available, like any other software producer. Some democoders who care write demos that are portable to many platforms. Other democoders that don't care about Windows code specifically for their favorite platform, whether that is the C=64, Macintosh, GBA or whatever.

There are people in both scenes who participate in the other, but the demoscene has always had more in common with proprietary closed software than it has had with open source. Very few people publish the source to their demos because they hold their bag of tricks close to their chest, just like proprietary software vendors.

About the only thing the demoscene has in common with the free software movement is that demos are freely available for download and charging money for demos is generally frowned upon.

Also, comparing a demo of Doom 3 to what a democoder produces in a typical demo is a pretty silly comparison. That is like comparing the layout of my household vegetable garden to the elaborate displays at Longwood Gardens.

Doom 3 is a commercial effort (not open source!) with probably tens of man years invested in the code base.

Your other comments seem similarly misinformed. Very few of the modern demos have high hardware requirements and commercial game programs coming out currently don't have high minimum hardware requirements, but they also drop off all the bells, whistles and fancy chrome when you run them on crappy hardware. Democoders prefer to take advantage of the hardware if they need it but don't bother in trying to make scaled-down crappy looking versions of their demos to run on old hardware. The difference is that games won't get funded if they don't run on old crappy hardware, whereas democoders could care less if you've got old crappy hardware and can't run their demo.

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Pilgrimage 2004 American Demoparty Announced

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