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CeCILL: La Licence Francaise Du Logiciel Libre
News for nerds writes "Researchers at three French government-funded research organizations revealed the new Open-Source license, known as CeCILL (English .pdf here), which they say is compatible with the FSF's GPL. CeCILL is intended to make free software more compatible with French law in two areas where it differs significantly from U.S. law: copyright and product liability. I, for one, welcome our nouvelle overlord of freedom."
Slashdot is too franco-centric!
GPL translations have always been awkward, they don't translate well into the local legal frameword. This new license is good because it's based on French laws rather than a french interpretation of US laws, and as an added bonus, if such a license is ever challenged in court, judges will take it more seriously if it's home-grown than if it's an "import" license.
Now, not being a lawyer and all, my question is: can a french developer use the CeCILL license as a drop-in replacement for the GPL? can he ship both licenses in a software product's tarball and consider both licenses equivalent in terms of rights they grant, in each country?
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
... with some delicious Freedom Fries.
Also, FSF Europe and the EC recently colaborated on a European trademark license for free software (which basically says that the trademark is allowed to be used only if the software is not sold together with non-free software).
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
Just in time for European Software Patents to make it redundant :)
"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
Different legal system, so you need to adapt the license for it.
It's funny (as in sad "funny") that americans seem to think that others dislike them a lot more than people really do. Of course, as some parts of the US have acted out on that misrepresentation the past few years, they are at serious risk of making it self-fulfilling.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
It's nice to see that someone is making Open Source -- or should that be Logiciel Lisible Libre? -- "official". If this licence stands up to the scrutiny of the courts, and with official backing there really is no reason to suppose otherwise, then it's an important step in the right direction. The licence overcomes the Great Omission of BSD -- that is, it explicitly states that if you distribute modified binaries you must also make the source available -- and even provides explicit permission to use the GPL as an alternative licence.
How long before there is a full-on, EU-wide Open Source push? What with rampant piracy in the former Eastern Bloc countries, official approval for the fair alternative can only benefit ordinary people.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
I suspect they just want a "GPL" of their own that doesn't come from those "stupid Americains" ...
Okay, I shouldn't feed the trolls, but...
Yes, you're right: many french people do think "stupide Americians". Most software developers don't however, simply because they deal with other developers from all countries in the world on a regular basis. But if a Franco-French GPL is what it takes to further the cause of free software in the eyes of the general population and in courts, why not? I'm all for it.
This is about developing free software, not about your stupid france-vs-america bull. If you can't talk about developing free software without communicating your totally unrelated biases, then please don't.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
I consider this part problematic. After all, when you start downloading the software, you may not be able to detect the licence, and therefore how should yoi agree to it? IMHO a license should never be assumed to be agreed on until you had at least the chance to see it. Moreover, what about dual-licensed software? Say, a software comes both under this license and under the GPL, and I want to agree to the GPL only?
OTOH I like the following part:
Note that there's no limitation of that clause to software derived from the licensed one, which IMHO means as soon as I accepted this license for a specific piece of software, I'm entitled to use all the licensor's patents covering that code freely in any project, even those not derived from this (i.e. basically the licensor is completely opening up the patents used in that code). However IANAL, and also I fear that this will be refined before any real software is licensed with this.
(BTW, it sucks not having Copy&paste enabled in that PDF)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
French laws are not the same as 'european' laws.
/me should find a job in the france ;)
For example, the intelectual ownership, the 'author' so to say.
In holland this is slightly different. If i am employed for a company, then this company is allowed to claim intellectual ownership about every line of code i write, also for open-source projects. This is because it is hard to distinguish 'personal' knowledge and 'professional' knowledge. In this case, the employer is protected a lot.
So, when employed as programmer, it is necessary to make a good arrangement, at least personal but preferably on paper, that you are allowed to write code in your own time and may publish this under a license chosen by you and that the company will grant you intellectual ownership of your code. However, it may be tough to get this black-on-white.. In practice it is no real problem, but juridical seen it is.
The french have arranged this better: intellectual ownerships is always at the author, as far as i understood.
maybe
A glitch a day keeps the bugs away.
Better than Never The Same Colour though, eh?
Q. Why are American pool tables blue?
A. So they look green on NTSC TV.
I noticed recently that there has been an effort to translate the Creative Commons licence into Nederlands...
see: http://creativecommons.org/ for more info.
Waag Society in Amsterdam were having some seminars about this issue (though their site is a bit broken at the moment www.waag.org).
I'm not French but I'm getting tired of the jokes that are made each time something about France is published here. The French reading this site are often just coders that share our same spirit of OS and Linux and such.
The jokes are often funny and the criticism is okay. Just not on every single subject that touches France.
In France, stupid people hate the USA for two reasons: fat people and rich people. Making fun of fat people (and McDonalds) is easy, and hating rich people is easy when you're poor. But there was a time (not so long ago) when americans were respected for their successful version of capitalism.
As for us, GPL nerds, we don't care about the USA because we're all some kind of techno hippies that love to share software, there's not even a religious barrier.
But don't be scared if a french guy is insulting an american, we've been doing this for years against canadians, belgians and swiss. Forget stupid people...
In fact, logically, if the GNU GPL was somehow incompatible or did not work fully with French law then the French government could not claim that their license was compatible with the GNU GPL under French law. That is, if the new license is really compatible with the GNU GPL then, by definition, the GNU GPL would work just as well as it in French law therefore there is no need for the new license.
I don't like the US goverment either (as a Ukonian) but the USan free software community and the FSF are the antithesis of the current US government, as they stand up for liberty and human rights--in a way they are the true USans (who follow the ideals of the constitution) as opposed to the USans who now give the US such a bad name.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
Anyway, I imagine RMS will have to say a few thing on GPL-compatibility.
We saw him at Toulouse last Saturday, where he gave a speech about free software. Someone asked about CeCILL during the questions part of the speech, and he basically said it was fine (negating other FSF people's comments like these ones (in French).
blah
but in France if a contract is not in French, it's not worth anything.
The same can be applied to Belgium as well where a contract has to be in either the language of the part of the country. It is more complex then that.
This brings up the question if these are valid in other countries as well. It also is very normal. Imagine you having to sign or agree with a contract or licence in Japanese. Most likely you will not be able to know what you agree with.
Another question then comes to mind. If such a contract is not valid, what kind of licence is there then in, especialy, software. Does the Berne convention come into place (copyright) or is it free for all?
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Well as a French, I agree that some people are jealous of the fact that some americans are very rich, but French don't hate Americans because of their fatness, make fun yes (and even not too loud because we have also the problem..), hate no.
Anyway, the "hate" is more linked to Americans being perceived as being arrogant: "American's imperialism" is the major reason.
The recent war with Irak is a good example of this domination in action: America wants to go to war with Irak, show unconvincing proof to NATA and when told that these proof are not convincing enough, goes to war alone..
That is what French people hate about Americans.
Just what we need: more politics and less quality code. There is no freedom with fragmentation. Microsoft will continue to dominate the computer industry until opponents try to unify
Join Team Mozilla #38050 Folding@home
W Ketchup, America's Ketchup! The perfect complement to your Freedom Fries!
And why not finish your patriotic meal with some Star Spangled Ice Cream, for the complete Conservative American Experience?
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Let me couch this in terms more enticing to understand, let's look at the post in terms of beer...mmmmmm beer. Where I live there's a brewer that makes good beer. Sleemans is a brewery that's been around for more than a hundred years because it makes a good brew. The owner of the brewery, a Mr. John Sleeman speaks out in advertisements that promote his brand name while talking about drinking and driving. He says he knows he can't stop people from drinking and driving but that he feels a responsibilty to speak out against it as he is a brewer. I think Mr. Sleemans' efforts are laudatory. While he can't really do anything to stop people from drinking his brew then driving he can speak to the ethics of the situation and ask that people don't drink and drive.
My post simply spoke to the likelihood that FSF/OS organizations may have to speak to the ethics of the product being used is suppresive states. If and when this scenario comes into play the community will have to address the ethics of the situation. simple n'est pas?
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
Not been for the French all the time, being French myself, but I'm not against the American all the time, being in a community that has its root in the US. But then again, France is not the USA, and our law are different, which is why we needed a FOSS license on our own, because after all if the GPL can't have validity against the French law on certain points (as it was written against the US law) I think it is a very good thing to have a license that can stand in court in France. It is funny to see that SOME Americans think that whenever somebody else is doing something differently, it is obviously wrong and directed against the US as some kind of long lasting hate. Well not at all, but then ask you the question, when the US adopted something not American? well not really often, so as it seem normal for you to keep your American pride, please leave others keep their own pride if they think it is good for them. After all it is the excess of the US regime that we complain about, not the basic.
What strikes me in this licence is the way the claim to be compatible with the GPL. Essentially, it say that the CeCILL licence can be "transformed" into the GPL if a CeCILL licenced software uses of includes a GPL piece of software.
...
This seems somewhat weird as it seems to imply that all CeCILL licence code can easily be transformed into GPL, thus removing all the specificies and french-law related subtelties of the original licence
I think the whole arrogance thing is overblown. Yes Parisian waiters are arrogant - you expect that. But by and large they're just regular people trying to get by in the world just like most people. You find some friendly people, some @$$holes. Same everywhere you go.
It's no different to American tourists in London. The knee-jerk reaction is that they're just a bunch of fat, loud, obnoxious Yanks. But I bet some of them are really nice friendly people!
No, that wasn't a troll. Don't mod it as such.
--
This sig is inoffensive.
By the same token you could say that Americans deserve the hatred that comes their way. And many would agree - the impression that is prevalent in most countries outside America seems to be that you guys are terminally superficial, heavyhanded beyond any anything merited by the situation, infinitely selfish, wasteful and equipped with the narrowest tunnel vision know to mankind.
But would it be reasonable to say that 'this is the way Americans are' just because your government and military are like that?
Remember - you guys started on the nonsense with 'freedom fries', 'surrender monkeys' and 'France's mini-me'. You never heard any French officials blurt out that kind of drivel. Probably too arrogant to stoop that low.
'Arrogant' is a remark I hear all my life about Americans and French alike. What a load of crock. There's what - ~300 M people in these two countries and all of them are arrogant? Your comment, on the other hand, makes you (at best) ignorant.
"I, for one, welcome our nouvelle overlord of freedom."
Hey dumbass, you can't surrender to the French! (I'm kidding...really...I even married one!)
Just another day in Paradise
...will you americans call it the French License or the Freedom License ? :)
BoD
13.2 In the absence of an out-of-court settlement within (2) months as from their occurrence, and unless emergency proceeding are necessary, the disagreements or disputes shall be referred to the Paris Courts having jurisdiction, by the first party to take action.
Does this mean companies can rob French OSS, and then force the creator to haul his ass to Paris to stop them? Or dows it just mean he has to get his ass to a fench law court? Either way some OSS writers may not be able to travel.
Also considering the agreement requires the matter to be taken to a French court with jurisdiction, won't that mean that US, UK or other compnaies who breach it won't be held liable as they were outside the juristiction of any French court?
Vive le difference.
May the Maths Be with you!
Personally, I'd rather people continued to contribute changes to open source projects because they considered the existence of good open source software to be beneficial to themselves, rather than because they were forced to by the GPL, but then I still have some faith left in humanity.
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The French do not follow the same rules as the English for word capitalization. This is evident in the French article, if you RTFA: /.-capitalized title:
CeCILL : première licence francaise de logiciel libre élaborée par le CEA, le CNRS et l'INRIA
Now compare it with the
CeCILL: La Licence Francaise Du Logiciel Libre
Notice how not every single word (including the articles) is capitalized? (Also, why don't Slashdot support accents and foreign characters?)
Judging from various news sources, the license was created as a protection for OSS developers.
French law doesn't seem to allow the "if something bad happens, you've been warned before" clause in the GPL, means a developer can't be hold liable for e.g. lost data. For that reason the "experienced user" term was added to this license, so a potential user has some kind of warning that the code might not perform as expected.
my 2 cents
As a Frenchman myself, I have to agree. When I was in high school in Germany, we had French school books (designed by French people to teach French to foreigners) that were basically saying France is not only about pleasure of all kinds, it also is a major hi-tech nation
They went on showing major French tech achievements: the TGV (French bullet train), the Airbus, and the Ariane rocket.
Not a single word was spoken about the fact that THREE OTHER NATIONS were involved in the Airbus project, not to mention SIXTEEN in the Ariane project.
On that very day, it finally dawned on me why so many people hated us and yet most of us didn't even know it.
Or consider the French European policy. The French government has grown so used to treating the EU as a modern-day colonial empire that it was shocked when most European governments turned their back to it at the first chance they could get - namely supporting the Iraq war, even though it'd mean contempting international law and alienating voters.
OTOH, quite the same thing can be said about the USA. I guess it is related to the fact both countries consider themselves as models to be followed.
Personally, as another islander, I'd have to say that in my experience, a fair percentage of the population of Paris are arrogant bastards.
But then, I'd also say that a fair percentage of Londoners are obnoxious wankers with their own share of arrogance. Not for nothing do the residents of London enjoy a certain reputation around the rest of the country.
I wouldn't call either group representative of the general population of their countries though. Most of the French people I've met here or in France have been genuinely nice, friendly people. Same goes for the 'fat loud obnoxious yanks' mentioned earlier - most Americans are decent interesting people.
There just seems to be something about living in large cities that destroys people's consideration for others. Nothing to do with the country...
Warning: May contain nuts
However I have witnessed how American tourists often gets treated both in the UK and in France, often because they are perceived as loud, obnoxious and entirely without manners. Sometimes it might be true, but just as often it is a case of cultural mismatches.
I think the main reasons Americans apparently don't see people in the UK as arrogant too is that the French are amazing at making their dislike for something extremely in your face, combined with larger cultural differences.
The British on the other hand will, when offended, either use insults that the average American don't quite "get", or will smear it on thick with dry sarcasm that tends to pass straight over the heads of the stereotypical obnoxious US tourist...
These kind of cultural mismatches have nothing to do with peoples real attitudes. For some other examples - when I started dealing with Americans and to some extent other English speaking people in conjunction with work years ago I realised that I would often be perceived as rude because of the way I was used to speak.
In Norwegian you would often be very direct and informal and you use very few phrases that would be considered normal courtesy in other languages. It's very easy to carry artefacts like that over when you speak a foreign language. When Norwegians are being taught French and German it's drilled into your head that you need to watch it because you can really piss some (particularly older people) off, but for English it's often considered a lot less important, possibly because the differences are a lot more subtle.
I still find it weird when people address me "sir" in shops in London for instance, while using the equivalent term in Norwegian would either get you a weird stare or people would possibly take it as an insult (as it could imply you were suggesting they were being snotty and arrogant).
In the same vein my fiance (who is Nigerian) finds it extremely awkward to address my mother and grandparents by first name, being used to having to use courtesy terms or at least last name, while again either would be considered at best weird, at worst rude in Norway (because you'd be indicating that you're distancing yourself from someone, which is a sign of respect many places but would these days more often be interpreted as dislike or disinterest in Norway where the norm is to use firstnames in almost all situations).
One of the other mismatches I often come across where I've both thought people were being rude and had people consider me rude is the (mostly US) thing with asking someone how things are going without expecting a response. Before I knew, I considered it extremely rude when I'd meet an American who'd ask me how things were going, and then keep walking past me without waiting for a response. At the same time, I soon realised that I'd sometimes be preceived as rude for starting to talk about how I was doing instead of answering by asking how they were doing.
Quote: IANAL.
/.? If not, why don't we just post in every YRO story that "No one here is a lawyer." Think of how many "IANAL's" we'd save ourselves.
Quote: IANAL either.
Are there any lawyers on
Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
Speaking as an American who moved here to France five years ago, I think most perceptions of arrogance on both sides are due more to cultural differences than efforts or non-efforts to speak the language.
The French are more polite than Americans in certain situations and less so in others. For example, have you ever stood in line in France? It's every one for his or her self. Americans would find this very rude, but in France it's normal. On the other hand, in France you say hello and good-bye at least once to everyone you do business with, including the person at the toll booth as you plunk change into her palm while hardly even stopping the car. An American probably wouldn't think twice about never saying a word in such a situation, but a French person would probably find it rude.
There are many other examples of courtesies that are simply different between the two cultures. If an American isn't aware of the differences, he or she may find French people rude and perhaps arrogant, and vice versa.
Unfortunately, the grammarian shock troops would probably just toss you in a re-education camp as soon as they arrived.
You probably meant nouveau suzerain (or nouveaux suzerains to maintain parity with the Simpsons.)
Of course, by posting this in the clear and not as an AC, I'm now exposing myself to our new overlords as someone who may also need a few years of work^h^h^h^hre-education, otherwise know as "French II".
-- clvrmnky
Those French! It's like they have a different word for EVERYTHING!
Proverbs 21:19
You are mistaken on this point. The FSF does not interpret the GPL to mean anything about linkage. The FSF interprets copyright law as saying that linkage constitutes copyright derivation. You may disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that the GPL is solely a defense against charges of copyright violation!
If you violate the GPL, then the GPL no longer applies to you. But accepting the GPL is voluntary. If what you do with the GPL'd code is not violating copyright law, then the GPL is irrelevant, and you can argue that you never accepted it. If what you do with the GPL'd code does violate copyright law, then your only possible defense is that the GPL granted you the right to do what you did (which is only true if you adhered to its terms). But the GPL can never take away rights, by definition, because it exists solely as a defense against charges of copyright violation. If there is no possibility of copyright infringement, the GPL is moot.