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419 Scammer Gets Scammed
johnduffell writes "There's a lot of awareness of 419 scams at the moment, including a report from the BBC of a baiter who managed to get $80 and a birthday card by courier! He did this by convincing the scammer that he was in the Church of the Painted Breast and there's even a photo of the scammer with his breast painted! Presumably the scammers are hoping that the scammees are as stupid as they are."
The question now is just, whether the stupid idiot on the other hand might
;-)
actually sue those who tricked him for having been scammed for US$80.
There is not much chance he would get anything out of this, as he
tried to scam people himself, nevertheless - it might keep the guy
here quite busy for a while (because he might STILL have to appear
in front of a court).
Now - THAT would be interesting to see...
Always remember - they might be on the "safe side", since THEIR
judicial system doesn't care too much about them. But on the other
hand, by tricking the 419 scammer out of his money, we are breaking
OUR laws (be that in the US, Europe, or wherever you are - and our
courts look very different on these issues!). Or - in simple
terms: Two wrongs don't make a right!
Also - in comparison, the guy in Nigeria is guilty of ATTEMPTED
fraud, whereas the guy who tricked him out of his US$80 is guilty
of ACTUAL fraud...
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for making sure that this whole 419
scam thing stops. But I don't think we should simply skip the
principles of our 'western world' while doing it!
Isn't running a reverse scam like this one illegal? I mean, the nigerian scammer got what he deserved in every way, but isn't it kind of dangerous to do these kinds of reverse scams? I know the governments in the U.S. and UK might actually prosecute, which the nigerian scammers don't have to worry about from their govs.
From the article:
If you're tempted, just remember Prince Joe who's still sending e-mails saying he's sticking to his promise and saying the daily prayer: "When all above seems a great test, Get on down with the Holy Red Breast."
w00t! Where do I join?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
The story about the whole Church of the Painted Breast thing has been on 419eater.com for quite some time now. It's long, but certainly amusing.
Personally I like this one better:
http://www.419eater.com/html/kothapalli_rao.htm
...the first time one of these smarmy nerds gets his ass handed to him by a pissed-off criminal, I'll definitely be feeling the urge to laugh a bit...
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Greed is the common denominator whether it be the greed of the scamee or of the scamer. It goes way back to the old adage, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't. Couple greed to gulibility and you've got the wild west show that is the www.
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
When they get counterscammed for a significant amount, let me know.
"Presumably the scammers are hoping that the scammees are as stupid as they are."
Having met a decent slice of Human population, I can say that in fact that is the case.
"/Dread"
If they ever knocked on the 419 eater's door, all he'd have to say is, "Listen, I know what it looks like on the website, but it's all photoshopped and fake. I emailed the guy, but he never sent the money. It's my cash, a picture the guy sent, and a photoshopped photo of the envelope."
They'd never get a conviction.
I AM NOT A LAWYER, but if the guy ever gets that knock, the only thing he should say is, "I want a lawyer," over and over again until he gets one.
You're correct, though: two wrongs don't make a right. There's no point in having a Criminal Justice system if we don't uphold our laws and lead by example. Rather than punish the scammer by ripping him off, he should have used the information he gathered to get charges pressed against him in Nigeria.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
"If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."
Several commenters have expressed concern that what this guy is doing is equally wrong, and that he could risk getting sued.
Besides the previously mentioned unlikeliness of any sort of extradition, the article made clear that all proceeds from these reverse scams go to a children's charity. Therefore he's clearly not doing this for personal gain.
I'm would guess that as long as this type of thing doesn't become a serious epidemic, there's no reason the reverse scammers would receive an adverse judgement. Besides, someone has to lodge a complaint against this activity, and who's gonna do that?
Customs Agent: Reason for entering the country?
Scammer: I'm here to beat the tar out of David Hyde Pierce of the Church of the Painted Breast, who stole $80 from me while I was trying to rip him off for $18,000.
Customs Agent: *puts on gloves* Step into this room, sir.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
If you don't want to directly engage the scammers, but still want to hurt their cause, check out this site. All the images there are taken from the fake banking sites that the scammers set up. The pages refresh every 2 minutes to keep the bandwidth usage going. If you REALLY want to hurt them, and have bandwidth to spare, try going to this page. It will load 12 images, all from the aforementioned fake banking sites as fast as your connection will allow.
The story reminded me of this site. I'm not sure if the responses are real but I particularly enjoyed reading the Cthulhu response to a 419.
There's a very good reason that Mike didn't want to give the BBC his real name. These guys are like the mafia, I don't think they appreciate being made fools of. Many Nigerians believe in "Sharia" - or the death penalty for all kinds of transgressions. Source link
Probably not good people to have your home address and phone.
Or these successful counter-scams (this one and the p-p-p-powerbook thing) sound too funny to be real? The more I think about it, the more I think these counter-scams are just hoax posted by some guys looking for cyber-attention. Well, the p-p-powerbook thing seemd to involve too many people not to be real, but this breast painting thing definately sounds like a hoax to me.
perception is reality
It's a statistics thing. If 50% of all their marks take 3 weeks to find out their some 13 year old playing a prank on their african ass, then it becoem 50% less profitable. IF we ensure the number of counter-scammers and time wasters is equal to or greater then the number of gullible fools then we're doing the fools a favor and reducing how many marks the scammers cand o. Also we might be savign lives. These scammer try to invite these people to their country, then rob/beat/kill them for their possesions. So I'l suggest all \.'s do what ever you can to help. Find a nigerian scam mail? reply and fake interest. At least waste their time.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
convincing the scammer that he was in the Church of the Painted Breast
I work for the Ministry of Silly Walks.
Would the 419'er true and prosecute you for counterscamming? I think not.
It's the old "you can't con an honest man" (not entirely true, but often enough so). People will be hooked in on something that doesn't sound legit, but they're too greedy for sound big-bucks or quick-cash that they fall for it. When they get scammed, they don't go to the police because to do so would be basically admitting they were duped while trying to circumvent the law.
Of course, there are some notably stupid exceptions. I believe police once arrested a woman because she claimed she'd been sold sugar instead of cocaine. They arrested the dealer, and the woman (it was cocaine).
http://www.scamorama.com/bigmac.html
Con artists target the greedy and gulible... They target you and try to convince you that you can scam them.
Conning a con artist is NOT equivalent - you're scamming a person who deliberately targeted you in hopes of stealing from you.
As far as I'm concerned, conning a con artist is like beating the crap out of someone who tries to mug you - something that should be applauded.
Last fall I received an email from a Nigerian who identified himself as a psychologist and was interested in obtaining some stress management materials I referenced on my website. As soon as I read it I thought to myself that this was going to be the start of a 419 scam. I almost ignored it but then thought that I would play along. I told him that to mail the materials I would need $15US to cover the postage and to my surprise a couple weeks later a cheque arrived. I was sure it was going to bounce but when it didn't, I sent him what he asked for. The moral is that Nigeria is a big country and not everyone there is trying to run a scam.
Today's vices may be tomorrow's virtues.
If I were this guy, I'd forget about the spammers -- I'd be more worried about his involvement at the Church of the Painted Breast. I just asked my Most Holy Pastor here at the Church of Scientology, and he told me the Painted Breasters are a scam and just a "stupid made up religion to scam the weakminded out of their money". And my pastor isn't lying -- in fact, he *can't* lie, even if he wanted to. He cast out the demons of lying when that exorcism went on sale last fall. I wish I had the $23,500 required; all I had was $15,000, so I just exorcised the demons of disobedience and free thought.
I'm not normally an irrational zealous dickhead, but I figure "When in Rome..."
C'mon guys, a server can only take so much abuse.
...try it yourself. Study the posted scam baiter correspondence and try to mimic it with a few pet mugus. You'll find that while some of them are wise, many of them will fall for quite a bit of bullshit.
I've not yet conned money from anyone, but I have managed to get two scammers to be 'baptized' in the name of my church (the Church of the Golden Shower), and you can see the pics linked in a previous posting of mine (the pics are also in the 419eater.com Trophy Room, along with two other trophies that I received previously, one of them a Father's Day card for my dad, but right now the site is slashdotted). The "Golden Shower" baits are still ongoing, and I'm tempted to get the scammers to send me something via snail mail. Perhaps not money, but maybe hardcopies of the photos.
At some point I plan to document the email exchanges that led up to me receiving the pictures. I'm not as funny in my presentation, but it would at least give other baiters who haven't had luck getting pics an idea of how to convince the scammers to send one (in my case, I played along until they asked for money, then confessed that I personally couldn't afford what they wanted, but I could appropriate church funds ONLY if they agreed to join the church).
I have no reason to doubt the Church of the Painted Breast bait. The guy in the pic was successfully baited by others (note that one of the pics that Shiver/Mike/David sent is of a group of clowns with other pictures of "Joe" photoshopped in -- those came from other baiters, and you can see one where he's dumping water on his head and holding a sign that reads "SOAKED!") and Shiver is a resident expert amongst the baiting community.
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!
...wasn't even intentional. Guy asked a scammer to pose for a photo holding a sign with a company logo.
Scammer didn't exactly pose with a sign. Scammer did something else, something that no one expected, and that now has the baiter being revered by other baiters as a god (this is not my work, I really envy this guy);
Behold.
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!
they have _murdered_ poor saps who came to nigeria to "collect" on their "deals".
they even hired mafia to carry out a murder in north america, related to the scam.
419 flashmob
It's the anti-fraud statute. I mean, duh - lying to get money from someone is the very definition of fraud.
Everyone knows that damage is done to the soul by bad motion pictures. -Pope Pius XI
That is purely classic.
Trolls lurk everywhere. Mod them down.
I don't think the scammers are going to be complaining too loudly. 419 scams are a form of theft, and under Sharia law thieves have a hand cut off. Pretty barbaric, but these days liberal Muslims would much rather have a modern legal and penal system.
Islam doesn't have a unique claim to this sort of barbarity. According to the Bible, if you find a thief breaking in, you can simply kill him. If he is caught later, and doesn't have sufficient funds to make restitution, he can be sold into slavery.
The people the scambaiters need to fear are not the proponents of Sharia law, but the scammers themselves. The scammers are, after all, simply organised criminals.
Arrested, but not always convicted. Juries can be smarter than laws.
What do you mean, scam?
And, by the way, when do my concubines show up?
Would it be possible to crate a script for writing auto replies to the scammers? You know, the one which says:
,
Dear
I am very interested in doing business with you. Can you send me more details?
So that scammers waste their time on trying to write replies and at least lose some of their time?
Anyone that falls for these scams deserves what they get (ok, not all the scams, but most of them). The basic premise of these scams is that someone wants you to participate in a scam. Why doesn't anyone focus on this fact. These people are asked to help move money, merchandise, or something else, for larges sums of money, and none of them could even for a moment appear to be legitimate. No matter who gets taken for what, if they were trying to help somone spirit money away from the countrymen that it was stolen from, they deserve to lose it all. What about an 80 year old woman on a fixed income? Sure, she should lose it all, she should no better, but in her greed, she was blinded. If you get blinded to basic ethical living by a couple of dollar signs, you deserve to suffer.
According to the Bible, if you find a thief breaking in, you can simply kill him.
That's how it is according to Oklahoma law, too, and many other states.
It's called the "make my day" law: if I find you breaking into my home (castle doctrine), you are presumed to be there with the capability and intent to do me harm. Accordingly, I can employ lethal force in my own defense. And, for the record, I don't consider this barbaric at all: if you're invading my home, why should I have to stand at grave disadvantage and risk of grievous bodily harm while determining what your plans are? Out on the street, in public, etc., yes--circumstances are open to interpretation, and I need to be sure that the threat actually exists. When you break into my home, though, you're explicitly demonstrating some threat, even unarmed. There is no confusion about your intent when you've broken into my home: you're there to break the law, and you've demonstrated that by doing so (B&E is illegal). How many more laws you're going to break, I don't know, but I'm not obliged to wait for you to start assaulting/killing/raping/etc. me/my family before I act defensively.
Anyhow, no, Islam is not unique in how it deals with home invasion, but I don't consider that barbaric, just good defensive practice. As for hand-chopping, well, I don't care for the practice (I think it is barbaric), and I don't like the idea of selling him into slavery, either (though I'm quite fond of the idea of restitution), but I don't get to make those decisions (at least not until I take over the world).
"Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
--Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca
Not only do fators for consideration work on the plane of a decision matrix, but the universe is sufficiently sadistic as to insist on things coming out of nowhere to provide a level of complexity that presently exceeds human understanding. This variability scales down, and that's why things don't always go as planned.
People who buy these kinds of books are simply lackingthe level of imagination necessary to avoid getting caught in some corporate peter principle, and want quick answers as to how they can out-edge or out-compete their rivals.
What the 2x matrix world view, in present contexts, fails to understand is that the challenges ahead are not of competition but of co-operation - not unipolar dominance but multipolar consensus - not an overpopulated mass of hungry people, but a vastly depopulated technologically productive species exploring the universe. There is nothing matrical about that - the vision is completely wrong and off - we need more nuanced and complex decisions aided by a technical offloading of horsepower to machines, not simpler faster ones based on the quarterly bottom line...
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Well, how exactly was he to know the circumstances of your breaking and entering?
The situation that you describe is incredibly far-fetched. How often do people break into the homes of others for benign purposes?
If I catch an intruder in my home, I'm going to assume nefarious intent rather than that he simply needed to use the phone and didn't think to try a different house when no one answered after he knocked.
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!
I know the governments in the U.S. and UK might actually prosecute
True. However, at least in the US, the Bill of Rights, Article 6 says we have the right "to be confronted with the witnesses against" us. Which means not only do you have to find a prosecutor asinine enough to press charges against the counterscammer, but the original scammer has to SHOW UP in court to testify... and risk being arrested and charged in turn.
Furthermore, I suspect (though IANAL) that $80 would not be enough to bring you to the felony level, but that the attempt at scamming $18,000 by the 419 fellow would be. And most prosecutors are quite willing to make deals with small time crooks in exchange for testimony to catch bigger ones.
Plus, of course, "No jury would ever convict me!"
No, the real risk here is that the big 419 crook finds the counterscammer's real name and address, and has connections enough to do something dreadfully violent.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
The most interesting thing to me is none of the law enforcement agencies were interested in their information. Given the face this guy was stupid enough to send $80 the photo could have been of an actual scammer. The joke is law enforcement would be more likely to go after him for the $80 reverse scam than that didn't benefit him than the real thief that is stealing 18 grand a shot. I realize there is little they can do from England and the United States to a Nigeran scammer. Given the millions involved there should be pressure on Nigeria to prosecute these men. It may be bringing in millions to the local economy but the threat of a trade embargo from the US and Europe would scare them and could have an effect. Trust me, if Enron was being scammed out of hundreds of millions of dollars the government would be all over it. The fact it's mostly retired people and people who are stupid or desperate the government could care less.
This is all well and good, but the problem with playing with 419'ers is that it takes a lot of one's personal time. It would be better if someone would write an automated script to make the letters for you. Apparently, it wouldn't take much A.I. to defeat most of these thieves.
A court will not award damages to a party that has 'unclean hands'. The scammers are attempting to negotiate a contract by which they have no itention of abiding--indeed, by which they cannot abide (they don't have eighteen billion dollars, now do they?)--and which would be illegal even if they could carry through their promises. Loosely speaking, the terms: Scammer gives Baiter $80, Baiter gives Scammer $18000, Scammer gives Baiter $millions.
Consequently, the doctrine of clean hands (Link, Link) would tend to preclude successful legal action by the scammers. No court would enforce the contract, and trying to get the original $80 back would expose the scammer to far more costs and probably criminal prosecution.
~Idarubicin
I was burgled this year. The thief took some cigarettes, an old phone, a broken camera and helped himself to food in the fridge.
The food bit was suprising to me. I wonder how we can live in a society where people must steal food in order to live. I felt sorry for him because worrying about eating has never been a problem for me.
Does he deserve to die for a few crusty bit of bread? No. Death is not a suitable punishment.
"Make my day"? I feel sorry for you too.
This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.