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CAPPS 2 Back to the Drawing Board
dagnabit writes "Just saw this over at MSNBC. Apparently Tom Ridge is revising CAPPS II due to the lawsuits and complaints from some Congresscritters As an alternative, the TSA is hoping frequent travellers will voluntarily give up their info..."
From this article at Wired:
"The Department of Homeland Security and the TSA feel very strongly we should not move forward on any program that in any way infringes on preserving our freedoms," Stone said. "That is first and foremost."
Which really means, "we thought that people would just go along with us because we snuck every other piece of bullshit legislation through without notice but we were wrong."
The system, as originally proposed, would require all passengers to provide extra information when booking a ticket -- information that airlines don't currently ask for, like addresses, phone numbers and dates of birth. The system would then check that information against databases of criminals and terrorists and assign each passenger a green, yellow or red score, according to perceived risk.
Civil-liberties groups from the left and right have gained powerful allies on Capitol Hill by arguing the system is both too invasive and ineffective.
Damn straight it's ineffective. The 9/11 terrorists were already in the country legally. What the hell good would this do? They were already flying planes. Would knowing their dates of birth and their addresses have helped? Nope.
Privacy firebrand Bill Scannell, whose DontSpyOnUs website has targeted companies such as JetBlue and Delta Airlines for working with the TSA, welcomed news of changes to CAPPS II, but argued the TSA did not go far enough.
"They should shut down this anti-democratic project and put it into a security system that works," Scannell said. "Instead of retooling, they should junk the entire system and improve physical security."
No way! Improve physical security? You mean like stop worrying about having an algorithm figure stuff out and do it manually? That's work, no way! Plus, we wouldn't be able to create a large database of information on airline passengers that could be easily accessed by other agencies in the on-going fight to end freedom, errr I mean terrorism.
They'll probably just pass a law to immunize from prosecution anyone who collects their dirty laundry for them.
"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
I've travelled and been green lighted by CAPPS I.
So CAPPS II is dead...but is my information still...
...this idea? After all, we KNOW that the gub'ment has never, ever arrested people based on faulty info. Trust the man, people; trust the MAN.
Don't be a looter...and yes, I know that it's spelled with an "A" instead of an "E".
It is good to see that the US government is finally seeing that people do not want their right to privacy infringed upon. If they want to do something like the CAPPSII program it should be instituted voluntarily. Several airlines are already doing this and a rigorous background check to ensure the passengers are safe when they run them through an express check in. If anything US citizens should have their constitutional rights protected and if THEY should decide to give them up it was their decision for convenience of skipping the line.
Aren't "frequent" flyers the ones we care the least about? I mean, if you are dead from hijacking a plane, you typically don't go on many more flights.
"Roger, this passenger has taken 2000 flights in the last 10 years...you know...I have this suspicion he is UP TO SOMETHING!"
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
From the article:
Airlines, some facing lawsuits, have been caught up in the controversy because they provided passenger information for use in testing the screening system.
Has no one there heard of 'dummy data'? Live data - particularly sensitive data - is a no-no in the testing environment. In many cases this is simply because the developers have absolutely no need-to-know; in other instances it is possible for live data to escape the test environment via generated reports, bug reports (e.g. SSNs ending in 4 cause $PROBLEM), etc.
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
Last time i checked, suicide terra-ists don't plan to accumulate mileage.
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
This was "probably" scrapped simply because of the publicity it generated. There are "probably" easier ways to collect private information on the populate using pre-established methods that are less prone to public scrutiny (re: Carnivore).
There does seem to be a fallacy going around in intelligence circles that all that is required for good security is as much data as can possibly be obtained - which of course isn't the case. What is required is good and timely analysis of relevant good quality data. Airlines can't even book seats correctly 100% of the time - what are the chances that their data is going to be good quality 100% of the time?
remember one the first things that Bush said after 9/11?
We will not allow these terrorists to change our way of life.
heh. right.
to be honest, a voluntary system with no rules on what information can be collected scares me more than the all-knowing capps ii program. it puts in effect the same sort of discrimination and information gathering without any of the restrictions that would be in place in a legislated system. say 8 passengers give their information and two don't-- who do you think will get the cavity search?
What Future?
I don't believe in voluntarily. I see a future in which people who did not "voluntarily" gave up information are harrassed and automatically marked suspect.
And not because Tom Ridge just woke up today morning a changed man either.
Its because they realized when senators and congressman and lobbyists on either side of the spectrum told them that snooping on influential people aint a good thing. Its not me or you they are worried about offending, its the people who they need, who can make or break them that they cater to.
But they would violate the rights of every non-american who step off or on their planes with out a second thought, because every immigrant is a potential terrorist, isnt it? Every tanned face will be pulled aside, strip searched, his financial / public and private records scoured and reviewed by people who could very well abuse that power.
Well..here's to Good Ol America.
Rapid Nirvana
I'm a native born, US citizen, of (obvious) northern European ancestory. I have 2 degrees, an honorable discharge and have filed a tax return every year since I was 15 (that's 19 years if you're counting). I held a secret clearance for several years and have been bonded several times. I've had a couple speeding tickets, but never even been accused of any other misdemeanor, let alone a felony. In other words, my life has been documented by our government in quite substantial detail.
Despite this, every time I fly in the continental US I get searched. At the security screen where everybody else is passed through the x-ray and detector, my shoes are removed, I'm patted down, my hands and shoes are swabbed for explosive residue and my bags are rifled through. When I get to the gate and hand my ticket over, I get hauled off to the side, patted down again, and my bags re-searched. Every plane change, every pass through a gate or security station brings the same result. I have not boarded a flight in the US in the last 3 years without this happening. There is no appeal, there is no questioning why, there is only the choice to submit to this or not fly. My crime? Well, the only event I can come up with is I declared a firearm in my luggage after 9/11. A perfectly legal thing, I followed all the rules - demonstrated it was clear, locked the case, and placed it in the suitcase with the "steal me" tag.
It's embarassing, being dragged off to stand in the "special line" by myself. Mainly, I wonder what lowlife is getting through while they interogate me? Security personel are a finite resource, people have to be moved through at a reasonable clip or else flights are missed. When they spend 15 minutes with me, that's 15 minutes they could be investigating someone with bad intentions. Mistakes on credit reports can be researched, documented and appealed, usually successfully. This is unappealable, hell, nobody will even admit I've been flagged, it's "random".
At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
Alan Greenspan
Honestly, yeah.
I hope your governments will protect your privacy, but I don't care if mine does in order to protect me - I care if they break *my* privacy, but not that of a non-citizen. I assume most of the world is the same way - I certainly don't hear a whole lot of French people complaining about the well-documented practice of French airlines assisting French corporations in industrial espionage.
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Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
particularly the current flight security lines.
Lets face facts:
1. The 911 flights were brought down with box knives that did not go through security at all.
2. A box knife is no longer an effective way to hijack a plane. This is simply because a hijacked plane is no longer about a 3 day trip to Cuba. Now its about becomming a lawn dart. If you tried to hijack a plane prior to 911 with a knife, maybe we'd sit back and enjoy some cigars when we landed. Today, this firefighter and dozens of other people on the plane are going to shove the box cutter up your ass sideways. I'm not a kung-fu master by any means, but I am a 200 pound man in pretty good shape. Its a narrow plane. If I come running down the isle at you, you are going to fall down. I may get cut with a box cutter. So be it.
Now, making me wait 3 hours in line so you can take my nail clippers away isn't going to change anything at all. There are LOTS of ways we could still take stuff on planes (and if I can think of them, so can anyone else -- but I'd rather not broadcast them).
Tom Ridge and his ilk like to keep people scared because they get more power and funding that way. One way to keep people scared is to make them stand like cattle in long lines to give up deadly nail clippers.
Here's an idea, lets not vote for this administration this time either!
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
CAPPS just plain doesn't work. I am a privacy advocate and have sent several letters to my congressmen and representatives apposing CAPPS, but there are graver issues involved here. Beyond the fact that the government will have extremely large neural networked databases built on people to be used for "national security" and to "keep people safe" it actually makes air travel less safe from attack!
e cks-on-our-employess-for-your-safety scam. Repeat after me, TSA and CAPPS has helped weaken security.
Check out the Carnival Booth paper put out by MIT. It is long and technical, but well worth the read. I would much rather go back to the private security agencies instead of this bullshit TSA no-hs-education-required-we-dont-do-background-ch
Steal This Sig
Its a great idea, keep a database of terrorists - kinda like the pedophile lists, so once they've done one offence and got on the list you can make sure they dont get on a plane again. I also like the name check system that checks to see if a terrorist has made a fake ID with an anagram of their name or their same date of birth! Biometrics is going to be the key here, you've got to iris scan everyone to make sure they are who they said they were at the passport office or who they told that guy they got the fake ID from.
One idea though - why not add one of those little "Are you a terrorist?" tick-boxes when you buy tickets? I think if they also asked you the same question at the gate they could check to see if you had changed your choice - which would mean you were probably not telling the truth.
Some great ideas here. Oh BTW If they do start doing all that bank account checking stuff and they discover lots of money going between Saudi-Arabia and certain people in the US, they might want to make an exception if the person in question is the owner of any oil companies or their name begins with "prince" because obviously they're not terrorists! that would be abit embaressing, especially if Bush got pulled over trying to get on Air Force 1!
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
There were, as you can imagine, an insane number of troubles and issues with this approach. And our office was one of the ones that screamed bloody murder over these issues.
If they collected it for all non US persons I wouldn't mind. Although don't they already collect all this info for non US persons. If not, maybe they should.
If that trips your Godwin's Law Filter, try one of the modern variations .I certainly don't hear a whole lot of French people complaining about the well-documented practice of French airlines assisting French corporations in industrial espionage.
I'm not new here, I should not be surprised. Everytime there's a political discussion, some neo-con starts bashing the French for the most unlikely reason.
I thought I had seen it all. According to our well-documented accusers, we sold weapons to Saddam during the embargo, we sold him nuclear weapons, we stole Iraq oil, we're antisemitic, we hate Americans, we've killed Rwandan babies, we protect Serbian fascists, we don't bath... But what I had not yet heard is that our airlines (that would be Air France, I guess) practice industrial espionage. Wow, that's a serious accusation! Bear in mind, next time you're on an Air France flight that your French competitor will know whether you chose beef or chicken!!!
Of course, nobody can never show any evidence for such well-documented facts. It doesn't seem to matter. The French apparently committed a deadly sin when they tried to prevent the US from doing (what IMHO is) a huge mistake in Irak. So anything goes against them. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or not, it's true as long as it bashes the French.
Some of these accusations might be true though. I'm perfectly aware that my country has not always be on the right side and that we've had our share of dark hours or shameful years. I just feel that as a whole, the balance is positive. Maybe I'm even wrong here. And I'm ready to discuss that with anyone interested in an honest debate. But all this constant hatred against the French is something else entirely, and frankly it's frightening.
I do not fear for my country. We've been through worse situations than being bad-mouthed by O'Reilly or some anonymous geek on Slashdot. No, I fear for the US. A country I and most French people love, whatever you're told on Fox News. You know, we're not perfect in France. Our words and actions are not guided by God, more by plain old human experience. And one lesson we learned from being occupied by the Nazis for 4 years: If you let yourself hate someone solely based on his religion, color or nationality, you're on a very, very dangerous slope.
It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
The problem is that the airlines are big backers of the ID requirement. It doesn't do a lot to increase security because fake ID is fairly cheap and all terrorists would have to do would be pick suicide bombers without a record. What it does do is increase revenue by cutting out the ticket resale market.
It used to be that you could sell your ticket if you changed your plans, now you have to try to get a partial refund and the airline can sell a last-minute ticket to someone else at three times the cost. If you had sold the ticket they'd have only been paid once - the horror.
In almost all other areas of our society you are able to buy a service and resell it. If I contract to have your company ship an industrial container across the country you can't refuse later because I resold the left-over space and made a profit. If I buy a book you can't stop me from reselling it, or ripping out the pages and selling them individually if I want. The airlines though saw this great opportunity to, using the bogey-man of terrorism, prevent all resale of their products.
You can't even say the 9/11 terrorists would have been caught had we checked ID because they'd have known about the ID checks and bought fake ID or used someone whose record is clean. Wow, so we cost the terrorists a few hundred dollars for fake ID, we don't prevent the attacks, and we burden everyone with this annoying, useless, and potentially dangerous invasive system.
Sure, sometimes trading liberties for security is a good value, but I'd like to see how they honestly expect to improve security. As is, I think I'm being asked to trade liberties for a placebo, and another government-mandated airline bailout package.
El Al, the Israeli airline, is world-reknowned for its security measures.
Here's an informative article from Business Week about a year ago.
The point is that effective and efficient security can be achieved, and it doesn't require this sort of extreme federal legislation. I think that if US carriers and airports look to the example set by El Al, air travel would be much safer.
"Interesting side note: as a head without a body, I envy the dead."