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Why Offshore When Canada's Next Door?
Roblimo writes "A study by accounting and consulting giant PriceWaterhouseCoopers claims Canada could lose up to 75,000 IT jobs by 2010 to offshore outsourcing, but could also *gain* 165,000 jobs through U.S. outsourcing contracts. The trick is, according to this story at IT Manager's Journal, that while Indian, Chinese, and Russian programmers may cost 80% less than U.S. programmers, the time zone, language, legal, and other problems involved with sending work half way around the world can eat up much of the labor savings, while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"
From L.A. But, I'm Canadian and just came down to L.A. to make some American money.
I'm part of what Canada calls the "Brain Drain" where large numbers of highly (yet cheaply) educated Canadians rush to the States after graduating. The U.S. (California in particular) provided an opportunity to make a lot of money. My company stopped hiring Canadians (and actually anyone out-of-state) soon after I started, to cut out relocation costs.
I've been saying that companies should out-source to Canada ever since this out-sourcing thing became a big deal. Now that the tide is turning, I wonder what they will rename the "Brain Drain" to!?
As a point of interest, my company tranferred me to London, England for 2 years. Overnight my salary more than doubled, but my costs more than tripled. I've since moved back and despite the large paycut from returning to a Canadian salary, it works out better for me in the end due to cost of living differences.
Mercer human resources has a chartoutlining cost-of-living differences in the world. Ottawa - my current home - is almost exactly 40% cheaper than New York. Canada's most expensive city (Toronto) is only slightly higher than the US's lowest city (Pittsburgh).
"Looks like I'll be moving up north" or
"Where do I sign up?"
Well, you can Sign up here
Thats the Citizenship and Immigration Canada website, with all the forms and whatnot for admission to the country. Enjoy!
Unix is mysterious, and ancient, and strong. It's made of cast iron and the bones of heroic programmers of old -
Uh, we don't have to take drug testing, and AFAIK, urine testing is against our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And I work, in Toronto, for an American company which does drug test in the states.
No, reelly I don't!
Living in Canada, you may be making 40% less, but you cost of living is essentially 40% less as well, and that's including all the taxes and pension plans we pay.
Consider that a chocolate bar or a can of Coke costs $1cdn here and when across the border the same candy or Coke costs $1usd, that alone accounts for the cost of living savings. Americans can't buy new Canadian cars and import them back to the US because they are cheaper here.
Granted living in NYC has its advantages, but don't compare a large city such as NYC to some small city in Canada. Compare it to cities like Toronto, and Montreal, where you can do just the same things, and probably experience MORE culture there than in NYC. These are large international cities that host world events such as NYC, and dramatically a lot safer too. No worries of gun toting bandits in Canada.
- I once went to a sporting goods store in the US, and found stacks and stacks of bullets sitting on the floor without any sort of security with a sign marks "On sale, 25% off all calibre bullets and shotgun shells". Don't they lock up dangerous goods behind secure areas???
Live forever, or die trying.
No, don't move up north. We have the same problem here as the United States does. Too many programmers not enough jobs. That's why it's so damn cheap.
You'll find it even harder to find a job then we do being a foreigner without a permanent visa.
You missed one.. The cost of living is also around 40% lower in expensive Canadian cities than expensive American cities; so you really do go without much.
Rod Taylor
I'm a software developer in Toronto, my brother is a developer in Sunnyvale, CA. He has 2 years more experience than me, but is comparable in skill and experience. He makes 30-40% more (30% now, but that's because the Canadian dollar is doing better against the $US) and pays 5-10% more for rent. The cost of living is higher in the states, but if you are living in a big city in Canada (Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, not so much Montreal) the cost of living isn't that much lower.
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Tax rates are tiered in Canada. For someone making $50,000 Canadian a year, their yearly tax would be about $12,000--this includes fed + prov + Canada Pension Plan + tax credits.
The approximate tax rates are (fed+prov combined):
Up to 35,000: ~22%
Up to ~70,000: ~31%
Over 70,000: ~38%
But we also receive tax credits, and if you contribute $ to your retirement savings plan you can greatly reduce the amount of tax paid.
Overall I pay about 26% tax on my yearly income. Nowhere near 50%!
That's not true at all. The only section of Canada that is dominated by French is Quebec (85%) and they don't even want to be a part of Canada... That's a whole other issue though. In fact most provinces have less than 5% French speaking citizens. Especially out west, we have less than 2% french speaking citizens. Your statement is like me saying that everyone in the US speaks with a spanish accent.
Here's some census in fo for you.
1996 Census info on Language
WURD!!
Of course, I went and believed a person from B.C. who told me this and now I look it up and much to my chagrin....... It ain't so.
"I went on a diet, swore off drinking and heavy eating. And in fourteen days, I had lost exactly two weeks. Joe E. Lewis
I'd like to know how you're paying 50% tax.
The maximum tax rate in Canada at the federal level is 29%, and that kicks in when you make more than $113,000. Since the tax rate is progressive, you pay nothing on the first $8000, 16% on the money between $8000 and $35,000, 22% on the money between $35,000 and $70,000, and 26% on the money between $70,000 and $113,000.
The highest tax rate in the country is in Newfoundland/Labrador, and at it's MAXIMUM, you pay a TOTAL (that means including federal tax) of 47.02% on money over $113,000. Remember that the tax rate is progressive. If you make $113,001, you pay 47 cents of tax on that ONE DOLLAR, but everything below that is taxed at a lower rate.
Nowhere in Canada does you full tax approach 50%. You may be paying anywhere from 30% - 40%, depending on how good a job you have.
In Alberta (the lowest tax rate in the country - a flat rate of 10%), your personal exemption is $14,337 and the federal exemption is $8012. You pay 16% federal tax up to $35,000, and a flat 10% provincial tax.
So, we'll do provincial tax first. You only have to pay tax on $20667 because of the exemption. It's 10%, so you pay $2067 provincial tax.
Federally, you would pay tax on 26988. The rate is 16% in this bracket, so that's $4318. That's a grand total of $6385 on $35,000. That works out to a total of about 18% of your gross income.
Please stop saying that we're taxed at 50%. It simply isn't true. I've given you the number, and you can do the math yourself. NOBODY IN CANADA PAYS 50% TAX.
Whether or not there's corruption and waste in the government is another discussion. (Though it is worth noting that while the government pissed our money away, the books were still balanced. We haven't had a deficit budget in years.)
Oh, and here's where I got the tax info from. Check my math yourself. It's possible that I made a mistake, but the conclusion is still true.
http://www.taxtips.ca/tax_rates.htm
Exactly... My guess is that that "40% less" is not 40% less than all states... just the ones that pay a lot, like California.
:-)
Try using the International Salary Calculator, it's handy. According to that, if you made $80,000 USD in San Francisco, you'd need to make just over $60,000 USD in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (a.k.a. "Silicon Valley North") to enjoy the same standard of living. Also, Ottawa is one of the top 5 most expensive places to live in Canada.
The biggest difference, of course, is that housing is cheaper in Canada, and so is food. You save a LOT on your medical expenses, since Americans spend on average $5400 USD per year on medical expenses, and Canadians only spend about $3500 on average, (if I remember correctly), but get better care than the average American, though I suppose not as nice as the richest.
Also, depending on the province you live in, you can save a lot of money if they have non-profit government run auto insurance. As well, automobiles themselves are cheaper, even ones built on the same assembly line. If you want to check, go to gm.com and do a "build your own vehicle", then do the same exact thing on gmcanada.com, and compare the final MSRPs. You have to do the conversion for the exchange, but it's much cheaper in Canada, even with the higher tax rate.
Gas is more expensive in Canada (about 25% higher, depending) due to taxes, but the cities are smaller, so you tend to spend less time commuting. Other things taxed more are alcohol and cigarettes, but that's supposed to help pay for the health care. Might as well be the drinkers and smokers that carry the burden there, eh?
Food is cheaper in Canada, but clothing is more expensive. Electronics are more expensive, but you can always get a buddy to pick something up for you in the U.S. at cheaper prices.
Broadband internet access is generally wider spread in Canada, and cheaper, because Canadians are more urban than our American counterparts.
Income tax itself isn't that much different anymore, though it used to be. I know for certain, since I have to file both. I'm a computer engineer, and I find that I would pay the same in either country, within a couple hundred dollars. Sales tax, of course, is higher in Canada.
If you're right leaning, you can always move to Alberta, which is a booming wild west place. If you'd prefer the government pay your way, there's always the east coast, and if you're a greenpeace member, there's always the west coast. If you're an accountant, then you'll be at home in Ontario, but Quebec's always close by for those big let-your-hair-down parties. In particular, if you can't shovel snow, Toronto's the place for you, because if it ever snows more than 3 cm, they'll declare a state of emergency and call the army in to shovel your driveway for you.
Just to be fair... Manitoba's population density is 1.9 people per square kilometre and if your dog runs away there, you can still see him running 3 days later, and Saskatchewan is a cooler version of Arizona (dog thing also applies, but the dog will probably be eaten alive by grasshoppers by the 3rd day).
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
I dunno. My family, which was an Indian immigrant family living in the US, didn't have much in the way of problems immigrating to Canada. I think all in all, the process took less than two years. The barrier of entry to become a part of canadian society, is, in my experience, much lower than in the states.
Even getting citizenship in Canada is a breeze compared to the states, especially for us "third world escapees". After I had lived here for 5 years, I applied for citizenship, and within a year and half, had gone through the entire process.
I don't know where you're getting those statements from, but they definitely don't reflect my experience with Canadian immigration. I find the bureaucracy here to be much more tempered than in the states. Not nearly as much red tape to deal with.
-Laxitive
Small businesses get taxed at a much lower rate. In Nova Scotia (where I currently reside), the combined provincial/federal tax rate on small business is a mere %18.1 for the first $300k AFTER EXPENSES, and you can expense damn near anything that's biz-related (trips, meals, cars, computers, etc). You can then also take personal funds from the company out up to $25k/year as a tax-free dividend (may be going up soon!).
The upshot is if you incorporate and you have your wife on board as a signing officer, between the two of you you can pull out $50k @ %18.1 total tax, and the rest at a relatively low marginal rate, all while providing yourself with the trappings of money on the company dime through junketeering and expensing. And if your company grows, you can use additional corp funds by issuing yourself a shareholder loan for basically any amount, at any time.
The mantra that Canada is 'business unfriendly due to taxes' is basically just a warcry for those who want even MORE tax breaks in a country where many businesses would already operate with less tax burden than US counterparts. The reality is that I pay at or below the tax rates of many people to my south (particularly california).
If you're in Canada and making more than 70k/year, seriously look into incorporation. Your tax situation will improve dramatically.
From the site's FAQ:
In short, they're throwing in things that none of us consider to be taxes on income. They're saying "we" pay for corporate taxes and mining and petro royalties.
If we did this to the U.S., it would work out the same because the U.S. also has price controls on tabacco, sugar, corn and a host of other foods. Not to mention the county and state taxes on the phone bill, etc. Don't buy the propoganda.
The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com