Posted by
CmdrTaco
on from the and-it-fits-in-the-palm-of-your-hand dept.
FTL writes "Turn an ordinary wheel mouse into a 3D pointing device. All one needs is some string, some hot melt glue, and a lot of math. 3D mice have been floatingaroundforawhile, what will it take to get people to use them?"
Yes, I know it's still a 2D display. It's supposed to be funny.
-- It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
Re:What's the point?
by
dirty
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
Possibly, but for general use, there is no reason for people to start using them. Not to mention, think of how tired your arm would get after hours of work on your computer.
I'm sure for specialized tasks 3d mice make perfect sense, and are probably already in use. I just don't want to have them shoved on normal use.
--
-matt
Re:What's the point?
by
tciny
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
On the other hand it'd be pretty comfortable for using a software like Maya or 3dsmax where you currently have to use those transform gizmos in order to move objects in 3D space.
I think tho, that it'd need another solution than just giving 2d mice a third axis.
I'd rather have something like a glove you put on where you can then pick up objects, point at them, etc. It'd just make it far more intuitive and flexible to use... and of course far more expansive, that is:)
Re:What's the point?
by
dirty
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
I'd really love to see some statistics proving that point.
Web development isn't real work? Video production isn't real work? Audio editing isn't real work?
Those 3 items are 90% of the work I do on a computer, and I'd love to see you do any of them with a pen and paper. Not one of them would be simplified with a 3d mouse, or even a 3d desktop. Extra monitors on the other hand, provide a great benifate to all of those areas. And all a second monitor does is extend your 2d work area.
I can't back this up at all, but I would imagine that true 3d applications are nothing more than a small percentage of work done on computers. I'd say the vast majority of all work related computer use is office applications. Yes a good deal of it could be done on paper, but with a lot more effort.
I agree.
Most of the posts so far have only shown that most have no idea how users interact with machines, let alone how the posters themselves interact with their own machines.
Even a 3D GUI couldn't use a 3D mouse. Motion in the virtual space is accomplished much the way we move in real space. Forward and back. Rotate and Tilt. Sounds a lot like flying. Everything depends on point of view and line of sight.
Now for digitizing, a 3D mouse still wouldn't work, although the absolute positioning would be useful. In this case, various commercial digitizing arms already suffice and many softwares already convert photos to 3D. It would be better to have a (radar/sonar/video) sensor locate our finger tips and extrapolate what we are "pointing" at.
Maybe people should look up the old PARC research, eh?
None of this fancy Z axis stuff.. why in my day all we had to get around with a 1D mouse. We had the X axis only and we liked it!
Next to our punch cards they were the bees knees.
-- Beings aspergers AND pulling chicks... I enjoy the challenge!
What will it take?
by
Andy_R
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
As with all technologies: A killer app.
-- A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
Re:What will it take?
by
fuzzix
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
As with all technologies: A killer app.
Perhaps a desktop environment like Sun's Project Looking Glass in conjunction with a 3D output device (like a VR helmet or 3D monitor) could make such an input device feel more natural.
I haven't used Looking Glass yet so I'm not sure how well suited it would be...
yeah, but I also heard that you have to sustain a scroll speed of 88 miles/hour for it to work correctly..and then it gets really, really cold.
-- "Good night, good work, sleep well, I'll most likely kill you in the morning." - Dread Pirate Roberts
Interesting concept
by
Ratface
·
· Score: 4, Informative
And in answer to the people asking what's the point...
a) Because it's a neat hack b) It could be used for simple 3D point scanning to measure points on a 3D model c) Could be used to manipulate information in a 3D CAD/drawing progeam, or to navigate or move objects in a solar representation or similar spatially oriented program d) Because it's a neat hack. Sheesh what more reason do you need?
--
A little planning goes a long way...
Re:Interesting concept
by
Fizzol
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
>Because it's a neat hack. Sheesh what more reason do you need?
Yes, it's a neat hack. But when the question is raised "what will it take to get people to use them?" it needs a better answer than "it's a neat hack."
Re:Interesting concept
by
Confused
·
· Score: 2, Funny
This mouse uses 3 strings to measure distances. For scanning, this reduces the scranning volume dramatically. For example, it would be impossible to scann a simple cube with that mouse, because one of the strings needs to move through the cube. The mouse works only for moving around empty space.
The best use I can imagine for this thing is to attach a fly to the pointer an track it's movements.
Next on Slashdot: Nano-Piercing for flies made easy.
Re:Interesting concept
by
Twinbee
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Even in 2D programs, this would be useful. Think of simple controls like moving a slider or zooming in/out. There are plenty of other program specific functions too. For example, in paint programs, it could represent the opacity (translucency level).
Almost any type of program could benefit from the extra dimension. In fact, the mouse wheel on a lot of mice already counts as this 'extra 3rd dimension'. But unfortunately, it uses discrete steps to funtion, rather than a smooth continuous movement (one would think there'd be a market
for analogue mouse wheels, but no company seems to produce them... shame...).
Re:Interesting concept
by
gfxguy
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
I think that would be pretty awkward when anybody seriously using paint programs is also using pressure sensitive pens.
But there are certainly some good uses for a 3D mouse or other pointer in some 3D applications. People have mentioned CAD, but there are also things like examining volumetric visualizations of 3D data (like medical imaging). Games could even take advantage, and you wouldn't need 3D glasses or anything fancy - good use of shadows and other visual cues gives a good enough representation.
Keep in mind some of the real interesting parts of a 3D mouse - not just moving in 3 dimensions, but many 3D mice allow you to rotate the mouse... so you move in 3D and press the button to select an item, then you can look at it from any angle by rotating the mouse...
There's a lot of good uses, IMO, although I also freely admit that it'd be games that cause something like this to catch on "mainstream."
-- Stupid sexy Flanders.
what's the purpose?
by
softwave
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
what will it take to get people to use them? seriously, a purpose? I remember that Logitech had a pointing device that would allow 3D-movement, that was like 10 years ago. Can't remember the name though. I frankly don't see in what niche there would be a use for a 3D-mouse. Not even gaming, not even 3D-development (such as CAD/CAI). But I'm curious to hear it from other users...
What will it take to get people to use them?
by
GillBates0
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
3D mice have been floating around for a while, what will it take to get people to use them?
Most likely a functional 3D GUI.
-- An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
A different solution...
by
Oscaro
·
· Score: 5, Informative
...can be built with two analog joysticks. See here
That "interesting", but what about...
by
ShaggyZet
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
...just using the wheel as the third dimension, depth? And not just for zooming in on a window, but for actually navigating in a 3d space. I never much liked the idea of a scroll wheel anyway. It's find for reading documents (yes, I know that all some people use their computers for), but it doesn't really fit in to any other UI paradigm that exists today. I think using it for depth in a 3d space would feel very natural.
6d mouse more useful
by
XavierXeon
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Re:6d mouse more useful
by
mt-biker
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
Absolutely. I use a space-mouse at work (VR), but I guess relatively few people on slashdot know about them?
You don't move it around like a regular mouse, rather you hold the hockey-puck sized control in your hand and push/pull it _gently_ in one of 3 directions. Being able to twist the puck gives you the other 3 degrees of freedom.
The device is sprung and returns to center when you let go. The total movement of the puck is only about a centimetre (0.393700787 inches;) in any direction.
When you're used to using a normal mouse, it takes a while to get the feel of the relatively sensitive spacemouse, but since your hand remains stationary on the desk while using it, it's not tiring.
Drawbacks: Cost - the things are EXPENSIVE! Also I doubt it would totally replace a normal mouse - with the speed turned up high it wouldn't be accurate enough for fine tasks, and with the speed lower it'd take you forever to get from one side of the screen to the other. The space mouse is intended to manipulate models in 3D space.
see: inexpensive 3d mouse
by
192939495969798999
·
· Score: 2, Informative
What they really mean is "inexpensive 3d mouse". There are already 3d mice available for CAD applications, but they cost A LOT (Logitech Magellan for $579).
I always thought the vagina mouse(not work safe!) was 3d....
Muscle fatigue...
by
timbloid
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
...is surely the problem with all these designs?
How many hours a day (out of an 8 hour day) do you think you could hold something (even of tiny mass like a mouse) in the air, away from your body.
And what happens when you want to type/relax/urinate? You put it down, lose your place in 3d space, and have to get it back to the same position to continue?
It's a nice hack, don't get me wrong, but there's a reason why helicopters use a 2 handed control system rather than a mouse. Doing it all with one hand just isn't very accurate, easy, or safe...
That was my first thought too. Why not just use the scroll wheel for the third dimension, z-axis? I would think that it would be a lot more intuitive after a bit of use. With the configurable controls you have today attached to your mouse you could set your axis any way you want. The article seems to take a Rube Goldberg approach to a 3-D mouse in my eyes. Hey where is the fly swatter attached to the hamster wheel to do the mouse clicks!
Why don't we use wheel as "depth" (zoom) command for 3D navigation in "world behind the screen"? That seems so obvious...
Those devices from TFA are more like "make your computer read your hand's 3d motion", which is IMHO too anti-ergonomic to be useful (except maybe for some kind of workout).
Useability; A mouse is the wrong shape
by
91degrees
·
· Score: 5, Informative
I was working as part of a research project for 3D (as well as 4D, 5D and 6D) designs for better comuter input devices. What we found was that a mouse is the wrong design.
Firstly, It quite simply doesn't make sense. Mice don't fly unless you throw them. This cognitive dissonance causes users considerable problems.
We solved this quire easily by replacing the "mouse" with a "bat".
Secondly, it creates arm ache. Holding the bat up for several hours just isn't possible. This was solved by the simple and rather crude device of a counterweighted piece of string on a pully on the ceiling. Of course, this isn't goinf to be suitable for a home user. I suggest we'll probably need some sort of rotor assembly to avoid the tangle of strings and wires.
It appears that no other researchers have even looked into our research, preferring to reinvent the wheel at every step.
Re:Useability; A mouse is the wrong shape
by
ZagNuts
·
· Score: 2
For 10 dollars I would have told you that you can't hold something in the air for several hours without getting tired, and that a new product deserves a new name.
I don't know if it's that other researchers prefer to reinvent the wheel so much as that these are obvious points.
just two nights ago I wondered whether I should post "ask/." on how to make a 3d mouse. Such device will be very useful for debugging my CAE program (calculating concrete) that I write for my PhD.
now I'm off to make this mouse and see how it works.:))
Re:What's the point? Music!
by
argent
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
With a 3d mouse you could build a digital theremin.
He's holding it wrong! (UI ideas)
by
argent
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
What you need is to put the ring on your finger, then get one of those laser-pointer mice and hold it: now you get:
3d position of your hand. 2d attitude of your hand (pitch and yaw). 2 or 3 buttons.
Now let's pretend you have a device like this that's light enough that you can wear it like a glove (no Nintendo jokes, please) and it's wireless. Add "roll" input and implement the buttons using something like midi drumsticks based on finger movements.
Now, what's the user interface for this going to look like?
Let's avoid the gorilla-arm problem by making a state change when you rest your hand on the table. On the table it acts like a mouse, except you're not holding a mouse you're just moving your hand or finger on the desktop and tapping it to click.
So, if you're used to a mouse, you can use it like a mouse.
Next, add gestures. Thumb and forefinger together and you're dragging. Curl your fingers into a fist and you just cut (grabbed) what you selected. Open your hand wide and you paste (drop).
Now, move your hand off the desktop. A couple of inches away and you shift to 3d mode. Gestures work the same way, but now you can drag windows forward and back as well as up and down.
Next, move your hand near the actual screen. Now it works like a light-pen with gestures, so you really can move that window out of the way by reaching up and dragging it. Why, you could even apply virtual white-out on your monitor!
Finally, curl your fingers around like you're pointing at something. Now you're using a virtual laser-pointer... the mouse moves wherever your finger is pointing at. This extends the "light pen" mode back away from the screen, so you can rest your hand on the desk without breaking that metaphor.
I'm sure that not all of these modes will end up being useful, but it wouldn't take much of a change in our existing user interfaces to find something that would work better than the mice we use now.
Re:He's holding it wrong! (UI ideas)
by
Solder+Fumes
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
I like how you think. Now here's another wrinkle: make sure the pressure sensors in the fingertips have high enough resolution, and/or have a pressure sensitive pen that communicates with the glove while you're holding it. Now, you have a full-featured graphics tablet (pressure, position, tilt, rotation) where the only size limit is your tabletop. You could even use the third dimension to get an accurate simulation of airbrush spray at different heights.
One more idea: Curl your fingers into a fist and place the edge of your hand on the table. You now have a virtual joystick. Squeeze fingers to activate trigger buttons, move your thumb around for hat switch etc.
Re:He's holding it wrong! (UI ideas)
by
lifebouy
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
How about using cameras to track the glove movement? Use reflective tape of various colors for the software to track, then it knows also where your fingers are and really does know the attitude of your hand. You could really manipulate things. Digitally, as it were. (get it? aw, nevermind)
I'm sure someone would try to scream patent, but the fact is, there is prior art all the way back to the PDP-6 at MIT back in '66 or so for using cameras in similar ways, albeit for robotics. David Silver was his name. So three cameras, positioned around the work area, could give very acurate posisitional data and allow a person to manipulate objects in very cool ways.
Who needs all the wires? Keep 'em
Also, as to why to do it? It's the hack! Look at the Altair. Why'd people assemble them? After completion, it was basically a box with blinkenlights and switches. So why did people do it? They did it because it was fun. It was about the challenge and the sweat and frustration and joy and... well if you don't understand, then it's not for you. Move along, there's nothing to see here.
-- Drop me a line at:
Key ID: 0x54D1D809
What about a real 3D input solution?
by
eric2hill
·
· Score: 2, Informative
The Spaceball is specifically designed for 3D manipulation. You can push/pull the ball in 6 directions, and twist it in another 3 axis. You don't physically move the ball around in 3D space, it's more like a 3D-enabled trackpoint.
Logitech had a '3d' mouse back around, oh, 1995 or so. It had a stationary base and a mouse shaped handle. The whole thing moved in an XY space, and you could roll-pitch-yaw the handle. It 'emulated a mouse' so that you could use it to replace one - or so the box said.
The REAL end result was hand pain the likse if which you've never seen. I had it back in the box and returned to the store in under 30 minutes.
The desktop is a 2D environment. There is no need for a 3D mouse. If a 3D desktop environment actually catches on, then people will need a 3D mouse. Until then, it's a novelty.
What will it take to get people to use them?
by
Oligonicella
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Slashdot Mirror
Seriously, what's the point of a 3d mouse? We have 2d GUIs.
-matt
-B
Next to our punch cards they were the bees knees.
Beings aspergers AND pulling chicks... I enjoy the challenge!
As with all technologies: A killer app.
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
I hear you can make a 4 dimensional one from extra delorean parts.
And in answer to the people asking what's the point...
a) Because it's a neat hack
b) It could be used for simple 3D point scanning to measure points on a 3D model
c) Could be used to manipulate information in a 3D CAD/drawing progeam, or to navigate or move objects in a solar representation or similar spatially oriented program
d) Because it's a neat hack. Sheesh what more reason do you need?
A little planning goes a long way...
what will it take to get people to use them?
seriously, a purpose?
I remember that Logitech had a pointing device that would allow 3D-movement, that was like 10 years ago. Can't remember the name though. I frankly don't see in what niche there would be a use for a 3D-mouse. Not even gaming, not even 3D-development (such as CAD/CAI). But I'm curious to hear it from other users...
Most likely a functional 3D GUI.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
...can be built with two analog joysticks. See here
...just using the wheel as the third dimension, depth? And not just for zooming in on a window, but for actually navigating in a 3d space. I never much liked the idea of a scroll wheel anyway. It's find for reading documents (yes, I know that all some people use their computers for), but it doesn't really fit in to any other UI paradigm that exists today. I think using it for depth in a 3d space would feel very natural.
a space mouse has 6 degrees of freedom and is very useful when working in a "3d" environment such as CAD http://www.3dconnexion.com/products.htm
What they really mean is "inexpensive 3d mouse". There are already 3d mice available for CAD applications, but they cost A LOT (Logitech Magellan for $579).
stuff |
I always thought the vagina mouse(not work safe!) was 3d....
...is surely the problem with all these designs?
How many hours a day (out of an 8 hour day) do you think you could hold something (even of tiny mass like a mouse) in the air, away from your body.
And what happens when you want to type/relax/urinate? You put it down, lose your place in 3d space, and have to get it back to the same position to continue?
It's a nice hack, don't get me wrong, but there's a reason why helicopters use a 2 handed control system rather than a mouse. Doing it all with one hand just isn't very accurate, easy, or safe...
That was my first thought too. Why not just use the scroll wheel for the third dimension, z-axis? I would think that it would be a lot more intuitive after a bit of use. With the configurable controls you have today attached to your mouse you could set your axis any way you want. The article seems to take a Rube Goldberg approach to a 3-D mouse in my eyes. Hey where is the fly swatter attached to the hamster wheel to do the mouse clicks!
Why don't we use wheel as "depth" (zoom) command for 3D navigation in "world behind the screen"? That seems so obvious...
Those devices from TFA are more like "make your computer read your hand's 3d motion", which is IMHO too anti-ergonomic to be useful (except maybe for some kind of workout).
I was working as part of a research project for 3D (as well as 4D, 5D and 6D) designs for better comuter input devices. What we found was that a mouse is the wrong design.
Firstly, It quite simply doesn't make sense. Mice don't fly unless you throw them. This cognitive dissonance causes users considerable problems. We solved this quire easily by replacing the "mouse" with a "bat".
Secondly, it creates arm ache. Holding the bat up for several hours just isn't possible. This was solved by the simple and rather crude device of a counterweighted piece of string on a pully on the ceiling. Of course, this isn't goinf to be suitable for a home user. I suggest we'll probably need some sort of rotor assembly to avoid the tangle of strings and wires.
It appears that no other researchers have even looked into our research, preferring to reinvent the wheel at every step.
just two nights ago I wondered whether I should post "ask /." on how to make a 3d mouse. Such device will be very useful for debugging my CAE program (calculating concrete) that I write for my PhD.
:))
now I'm off to make this mouse and see how it works.
#
#\ @ ? Colonize Mars
#
X-Axis (Left right) and Y-Axis (up down) are determined by the Ball.
Z-Axis (Foward, backward)is determined by the scroll.
Or you can use the keyboard and mouse like in so many FPS games. DUH!
Candy-Coated Knowledge
With a 3d mouse you could build a digital theremin.
What you need is to put the ring on your finger, then get one of those laser-pointer mice and hold it: now you get:
3d position of your hand.
2d attitude of your hand (pitch and yaw).
2 or 3 buttons.
Now let's pretend you have a device like this that's light enough that you can wear it like a glove (no Nintendo jokes, please) and it's wireless. Add "roll" input and implement the buttons using something like midi drumsticks based on finger movements.
Now, what's the user interface for this going to look like?
Let's avoid the gorilla-arm problem by making a state change when you rest your hand on the table. On the table it acts like a mouse, except you're not holding a mouse you're just moving your hand or finger on the desktop and tapping it to click.
So, if you're used to a mouse, you can use it like a mouse.
Next, add gestures. Thumb and forefinger together and you're dragging. Curl your fingers into a fist and you just cut (grabbed) what you selected. Open your hand wide and you paste (drop).
Now, move your hand off the desktop. A couple of inches away and you shift to 3d mode. Gestures work the same way, but now you can drag windows forward and back as well as up and down.
Next, move your hand near the actual screen. Now it works like a light-pen with gestures, so you really can move that window out of the way by reaching up and dragging it. Why, you could even apply virtual white-out on your monitor!
Finally, curl your fingers around like you're pointing at something. Now you're using a virtual laser-pointer... the mouse moves wherever your finger is pointing at. This extends the "light pen" mode back away from the screen, so you can rest your hand on the desk without breaking that metaphor.
I'm sure that not all of these modes will end up being useful, but it wouldn't take much of a change in our existing user interfaces to find something that would work better than the mice we use now.
The Spaceball is specifically designed for 3D manipulation. You can push/pull the ball in 6 directions, and twist it in another 3 axis. You don't physically move the ball around in 3D space, it's more like a 3D-enabled trackpoint.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
LOADING...
READY.
RUN
Logitech had a '3d' mouse back around, oh, 1995 or so. It had a stationary base and a mouse shaped handle. The whole thing moved in an XY space, and you could roll-pitch-yaw the handle. It 'emulated a mouse' so that you could use it to replace one - or so the box said.
The REAL end result was hand pain the likse if which you've never seen. I had it back in the box and returned to the store in under 30 minutes.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
The desktop is a 2D environment. There is no need for a 3D mouse. If a 3D desktop environment actually catches on, then people will need a 3D mouse. Until then, it's a novelty.
A reason.
Look, just for the screw of it doesn't suffice.