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The New Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL Graphics Card
Dr. q00p writes "Since Apple doesn't offer much information on the new Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL graphics card (and NVIDIA even less) which is required to drive the new 30-inch Cinema HD Display the readers of Slashdot might be interested to read a reply from Ujesh Desai, Nvidia's General Manager of Desktop GPUs, to a series of questions from Accelerate Your Mac."
Reading that "interview" I can almost see the lawyer going over every answer and neutering it before it went out. Either that or Mr Desai is the most boring and lifeless fellow in the history of electronics.
Hank! White!
Also, I liked this:
* Do you have any idea how performance compares on the Mac between the GeForce 6800 Ultra and the ATI 9800 Pro/XT card?
GeForce 6800 Ultra represents the largest leap forward in graphics performance in our company's history. As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI. We will let the benchmarks speak for themselves.
Translated: We'll release some actual numbers when we sell more of these mini-space heaters.
more than some PCs. Amazing!
:)
From the site:
"The combination of a GeForce 6800 Ultra with a dual processor Power Mac G5 driving two 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Displays is the definitive tool for the creative professional."
Yes because I need 2 30" screens to watch Carrie Ann Moss on one screen and Natalie Portman on the other
It won't replace my S3 - 1 meg
Never..
Never......
Never !!!!
As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI
Thats basically like saying "Hey, this new souped Mustang is much faster than a 1992 Taurus!"
I mean, it better be whole hell of a lot faster than the old cards for the huge premium you are paying right now.
Q & A with Nvidia on the Mac
Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL Graphics card
Posted: 7/20/2004
Shortly after Apple announced the Mac Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL card for the PowerMac G5s (which is required to drive the 30in Cinema Display), I sent a series of questions to a contact at Nvidia on the card. Yesterday I received the reply from Ujesh Desai, Nvidia's General Manager of Desktop GPUs. Although some questions didn't get as complete an answer as I hoped (often due to the fact Apple controls OEM Mac Nvidia products), I appreciate his taking the time to reply.
* How does the NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL card for the Mac differ from the PC version (i.e. Does the PC version have dual link DVI?)
The GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL card was designed specifically for the Mac to provide two dual-link outputs to support Apple's displays.
* Does the Apple version of the GeForce 6800 Ultra GPU run at the same core/memory clock as the PC version?
The Apple cards run at 400/550, just like the GeForce 6800 Ultra GPU on the PC.
(Note: Some vendor's 6800 cards are clocked higher than the standard/reference design.)
* The GeForce 6800 Ultra for the PC has two Molex power connectors - does the Mac version source all the power from the G5's AGP pro slot? (or does it have a aux power connector?)
There is an on-board power connector on the graphics card and the motherboard to provide power, so there is no need for an external power connector from the power supply.
(although the only Mac 6800 photos I've seen are tiny, it appears there's a stub connector on the card that (I suspect) uses the ADC (28V or 24V usually) DC power connector on the motherboard that's normally used for ADC display power to provide additional power (regulated down) for the 6800 card. That eliminates the need for Aux. (Molex) P.S. connector(s) like the PC/standard 6800 card versions have.)
* Does the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL have a low-noise fan?
Yes, the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL runs very quiet.
* Will there ever be a control panel with 3D/GL/FSAA controls for the NVIDIA cards on the Mac platform? (ATI's retail Radeon cards (and OEM models with the 3rd party patch) have a '3D/GL overrides' feature - which is seen as a big plus by many end users.)
Apple provides all the drivers for NVIDIA-based add-in cards. We supply them with the source code and they provide the final driver.
* Regarding the previous question - if there's no chance of an Apple supplied NVIDIA card control panel (for advanced features/FSAA, etc.) - if a 3rd party wanted to do this, can NVIDIA provide some assistance?
Apple is our customer, so if this is something that they requested, then we would support it.
* There's been talk of previous NVIDIA cards taking a bigger than expected performance hit from using some types of shaders (on the Mac) - is this a concern with the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL?
GeForce 6 Series GPUs have the most advanced shading engines on the market. Compared to previous generation parts, the vertex and pixel shader engines on GeForce 6 Series GPUs have been completely redesigned from the ground-up. Pixel Shader performance is 4 to 8 times faster. Vertex shader performance is twice as fast. Performance numbers have been outstanding.
* Will there updated/new drivers for the GeForce 6800 Ultra?
Yes. Apple provides all the drivers for NVIDIA-based add-in cards. We supply them with the source code and they provide the final driver. Apple will control the release schedules for drivers that provide even more performance, features and image quality enhancements.
* Do you have any idea how performance compares on the Mac between the GeForce 6800 Ultra and the ATI 9800 Pro/XT card?
GeForce 6800 Ultra represents the largest leap forward in graphics performance in our company's history. As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI. We will let the benchmarks speak for themselves.
(Note: There's no Mac 6800 perf
Nope, they should each show up as a single monitor.
The "dual-link" label is misleading, it's mearly an update to the DVI standard (like DVI-I, DVI-A, etc) too allow for more data.
GeForce 6 Series GPUs have the most advanced shading engines on the market. Compared to previous generation parts, the vertex and pixel shader engines on GeForce 6 Series GPUs have been completely redesigned from the ground-up. Pixel Shader performance is 4 to 8 times faster. Vertex shader performance is twice as fast. Performance numbers have been outstanding.
Absolut (tm) Garbage!! Here's another, this time with the question:
* Do you have any idea how performance compares on the Mac between the GeForce 6800 Ultra and the ATI 9800 Pro/XT card?
GeForce 6800 Ultra represents the largest leap forward in graphics performance in our company's history. As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI. We will let the benchmarks speak for themselves.
Talk about trash!! A simple NO would have sufficed. Looks like he's made the most of his Business-for-dummies Manual. Man, why am I so angry over this?
For n=1 to 12 Q: Blah[n] A: 42! Next n
The 6800 DDL is just a 6800 that supports the new ADC. Apple releases the drivers, don't bitch at us if you don't like the drivers. No, we're not going to tell you about our contract with Apple. The X800 sucks.
Much faster to read, no PR speak to deal with.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
I'm a heavy mac user, and I read this site pretty much on a daily basis, as the guy responsible for the site puts up a LOT of decent Mac hardware and software info on there. But this has got to be one of the most UNinformative, useless things he's posted. I know there's a desire for info about this card - but shouldn't we wait till some more detailed specs are released, or till someone has some actual silicon so benchmarks can be run ?
... As many other people have said, "Nothing to see here. Move along !!"
Yet another example of "no news" being news
There was actually a really great, informative article about the 6800 on Tom's Hardware a few weeks ago.
"NVIDIA has seemingly pulled out all stops in an attempt to deliver cutting edge graphics with its GeForce 6800 Ultra. After gamers for too long have had to be content with mere incremental improvements to graphics performance, NVIDIA new card delivers a performance jump not seen for a long time. The device is also solidly engineered as well as insanely fast."
My brain kept thinking that they were talking about the old Motorola 6800 chipsets that Apple used nine years ago... not a GPU marketed as "6800"... I got so confused...
Wait - I sold those things nine years ago!?!? Damn I'm old.
Can someone explain to me why a Mac would need such a powerful gaming card?!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
why can't we buy and use "PC" Video cards? What is it that makes vendors have to build EPROMs differently (Different?) for the Mac vs. Windows machines for the exact same card otherwise?
It reduces our choices and makes $100 cost $400.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
You're wrong and you're right.
Yes, the issue is data throughput. DVI-D doesn't support high enough resolution.
But, the 30 inch display only needs ONE connector.
DVI-Dual Link is just a protocal/standard that allows that one connector to send twice the data of DVI-D. Think double density.
So... one card, two DVI-Dual Link Connectors, one display (including 30 inch) per connector.
I would look into the Matrox Parhelia series of cards. They are designed for high end use in DV, CAD GIS etc.
I answer questions with no add-ins of emotion. There is no technical reason why I would answer otherwise.
Sincerely,
Ujesh Desai
No, there are the same number of cables(2), it's just that more of the pins are actually used for digital data. You might run into a problem if a cheap cable was made assuming single link DVI but any cable which follows the spec should work fine. The interesting part is that there is no KVM capable of switching dual channel DVI AFAIK.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
..."the new ACD", as in "the new 30" Apple Cinema Display", ok.
But if you actually meant ADC, or "Apple Display Connector", that is no longer used. With the new line of displays, Apple has (thankfully) gone back to standard DVI for the displays and for their future OEM video cards.
Apple teeters on the precipice of doom, one step away from plummeting to its ultimate nadir of bankruptcy, chaos, and implosion.
I thought the release date for the OSX version of Doom III was still up in the air...
When you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness. So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
Yeah, because that .3" is a HUGE lie perpetrated by Apple, who obviously have a VESTED INTEREST! 30" is just a nice, round number. The fact that it's a little more than a quarter inch smaller than that is pretty piddling. Don't you have something more important to complain about?
The 30" monitors from Apple have a resolution that cannot be fed by a single-link DVI connection. So they use dual-link DVI. Both single-link and dual-link are part of the DVI 1.0 standard, nothing Apple specific about them.
The difference between single-link and dual-link is how many of the pins in the connector is used for transmitting data, in a nut shell 12 pins for the former and 24 pins for the later.
Apple is using DVI-D (digital only) DVI connectors with a dual-link pin out for the 30" display. So one dual-link DVI-D connection is capable of driving one 30" display. The 6800 adapter used for these displays provides two dual-link DVI-D outputs, so one adapter can drive two 30" displays.
As a reference...
DVI connector type summary
DVI 1.0 specification (PDF)
Humm not fully sure... dual-link works by sending even and odd pixels for a given color channel down two different links. Single link transmits even and odd pixels over a single link.
Basically DVI defines 6 signal pairs for pixel data, in single-link 3 of the 6 are used, one for each color channel (RGB). In dual-link even pixels go down one bank of 3 while odds go down the other bank of 3.
From what I can see the channel definition for connections is the same for single-link and dual-link. So in theory it could work if the adapter could toggle between sending just even pixels to sending even and odd pixels on the first set of links.
A single dual-link DVI-I port can drive any DVI-I monitor, so the answer to the grandparent is Yes, as long as you get the ADC -> DVI adapter.
Actually this isn't true or we wouldn't have dual-link for example. It depends on the resolution and refresh rate, basically the bandwidth needs of the display.
Also...
DVI-I = connector carrying both a digital and analog signal
DVI-D = connector carrying just a digital signal
DVI-A = connector carrying just analog (extra to DVI specification)
For the digital aspect of DVI connections you can have either single-link or dual-link (supported by either DVI-I or DVI-D connectors, at least fully connected ones). So don't confuse DVI-D as implying dual-link, it just implies a digital only connector.
Apple's new displays use DVI-D connectors (at least that is what I recall seeing) with the 20" and 23" screens using single-link and the 30" using dual-link. The older displays used ADC connectors (basically single-link DVI with pin out for usb and display power). Apple's DVI to ADC converter has a DVI-D connector on it (looked at the one under my desk). Apple doesn't provide a ADC to DVI converter but third parties do (also ones for ADC->VGA).
DVI -> ADC converter converts a DVI output to an ADC output (what you need to drive an ADC only monitor if you adapter doesn't sport ADC)
ADC -> DVI converter converts a ADC output to a DVI output
I am not sure if the adapter in question sports DVI-I or DVI-D outputs (traditionally I believe adapters have DVI-I, at least high end ones). You can plug a DVI-D cable into either a DVI-D or DVI-I output. Also having DVI-I outputs allows the easy split out of VGA if needed.