Hollywood and NFL Fight TiVo

An anonymous reader writes "MSNBC/Washington Post is reporting that the NFL and tinseltown have asked the FCC to stop TiVo from expanding its service to include the ability to transfer recordings to PC's and other remote devices. TiVo says the system is secure. I say its source code will end up on the box. You do the math."

Comments

Go ReplayTV!

[Noksagt]

Without the mindshare and press of Tivo, ReplayTV has sported this feature for a long time. Ownere preemptively filed suit to make sure they could legally use show-sharing.

Re:Go ReplayTV!

[The Lynxpro]

"Without the mindshare and press of Tivo, ReplayTV has sported this feature for a long time. Ownere preemptively filed suit to make sure they could legally use show-sharing."

Yes, and that's also the feature that bankrupted SonicBlue. Replay is now on its third corporate parent thanks to the failure of branding, simplicity, etc. that TiVo captured. TiVo has 1.6 million subscribers; how many does Replay have? The last time I heard, Replay peaked at 200k. And the only person I know that owns one is Brentano on G4TechTV's "The Screen Savers." And TiVo and Replay have both been on the market roughly the same amount of years.

Re:Go ReplayTV!

[Noksagt]

Unfortunately not--it was voluntarily and prematurely ended by the media companies. They agreed not to sue Replay owners, but the legality of Tivo or others using the same technology wasn't tested. See EFF for more information.

Re:Go ReplayTV!

[LoadStar]

I DO know that Tivo has had a very suspect privacy policy in the past and that they DO transfer personally idendifiable data back to their dbs.

WRONG. TiVo has a very upfront privacy policy, which can be viewed at http://www.tivo.com/5.11.3.asp. TiVo also has hosted on their website a PDF file of a presentation to the FTC that details exactly what information they store on their customers. In short, information is only collected anonymously (this has been verified by multiple third parties) and used in aggregate. If you do not want to participate in this anonymous, aggregate data gathering, you can call TiVo and opt out completely.

Tivo is owned by Phillips

WRONG again. Philips does not own TiVo. TiVo is a publically traded company independent of Philips. Philips did (and still does, I believe) produce products that use licensed TiVo technology.

Re:Go ReplayTV!

[The Lynxpro]

"Mod parent Flamebait"

Oh really? And what about your post?

"I DO know that Tivo has had a very suspect privacy policy in the past and that they DO transfer personally idendifiable data back to their dbs."

You can opt out of aggregate viewer totals. This has been covered ad nauseum (sic) here on Slashdot as well as the general internet community. This is not an issue.

"Tivo is owned by Phillips and sold out to Hollywood, which is why they are still around in their current, Hollywood friendly incarnation."

No its [TiVo] not (owned by Philips). Philips owns a stake in TiVo, just like Time Warner, Viacom, Comcast, NBC Universal, Sony, and Disney. Here's the info:

http://www.tivo.com/5.4.asp

So before recommending someone's post is flamebaited, try getting some of your facts straight in your own postings. That'll make Slashdot all the better a place to visit.

Too Hard to Regulate

[artlu]

If the FCC/NFL is that parnoid about TIVO then they would also have to requisitiona ll video card manufacturers to not include video inputs on their cards. I would assume that most of the information going to computers and then torrent sites are coming from video in cards and not TIVO. On the other hand, I definitely feel bad for advertisers because TIVO could potential hurt their effectiveness, and ads make the world go around. No ads. No Slashdot.

GroupShares Inc. - A Free and Interactive Stock Market Community

Re:Too Hard to Regulate

[tomhudson]

Interestingly enough, the same story mentions a bill that codifies into law your right to kill off objectional material. Maybe objectionable material can include, for example, advertising to minors.

Meanwhile, yesterday, the House Judiciary Committee approved a bill that would significantly broaden user rights. The bill would exempt from copyright law technologies enabling users to zap objectionable parts of shows and movies so the programming can be viewed by children.

Re:Too Hard to Regulate

[stanmann]

Like the RIAA the NFL isn't interested in STOPPING piracy or copying, but simply making it non-trivial. SO they go after TIVO and Kazaa, but ignore video cards and FTP/NNTP. WHy? because it's counterproductive to sue NVIDIA/ATI or Worldnet/AOL. So they are wisely(?) picking only battles where they can achieve a public win. And they are picking battles where they can stop the "average" consumer from making the copies. Remember the Betamax decision?? they can't afford another one. so they can only go after "substantially infringing" media. So, Can they stop TIVO?? perhaps, perhaps not, depends on whether or not the judge(if it gets that far) determines that the "secure" copy to PC has substantial non-infringing uses.

Don't need a Tivo....

[jsimon12]

Last time I checked "Computer Enthusiasts" didn't need a Tivo to capture TV shows and share them. Not to mention the fact that time-shifting is legal. What is next, garrote survivors suing companies that make wire?

Bring Back the XFL

[Gumpmaster]

Jesse Ventura would have never opposed the free sharing of information. Down with the NFL. http://www.officialxfl.com

If not for Tivo....

[Dark Paladin]

Millions of people wouldn't have known what Janet Jackson's left breast looked like.

I only know because I was out of the room during the halftime show, missed it, had no idea what occured, then within hours had various friends of mine with PVR's sending me the files via email.

And all I could think as I looked at them was "Eh - my wife's are better. And probably more real."

Re:If not for Tivo....

[fupeg]

I call bullshit. Let's see your wife's breasts so we can all judge for ourselves.

Re:If not for Tivo....

[gosand]

Millions of people wouldn't have known what Janet Jackson's left breast looked like.

It was the right one. Not that I noticed or anything.

Re:If not for Tivo....

[Dark Paladin]

You'll have to wait a year until our new baby boy is done with them first....

Re:If not for Tivo....

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone must have sent him a link to the pic on a mirror.

Amazing

[WindBourne]

With each new iteration of technology, new features get added to media. Witness VCR -> DVD. Each time, the media fight it and try to gain control. So far, they have always lost. and when doing so, it turns out that the new features actually helped the media companies , not hurt them. And in spite of a long history of being wrong about it each and every single time, they still wish to try and control it. Insanity at its best.

It remains to be seen how many politicians have been bought.

Only 144 hours to transfer a football game ..

[burgburgburg]

to another registered machine in a different time zone where the game is blacked out? It's like they're just opening the barn doors and letting the horses run free? Where's the concern for the poor copyright holders rights? This will bankrupt the NFL and Hollywood in short order (if we assume that a over 50 decades qualifies as short order).

Too bad, so sad

[Anonymous Coward]

If TiVo makes advertisers' business model obsolete, that's just too bad. Find another way to make money. They're already putting more "ads" into the shows to counter this.

Re:Too bad, so sad

[sTalking_Goat]

You can't have it both ways. Either you accept advertisements (which allow you to watch stuff for free) or you pay for content (yes, that includes the garbage).

Untrue. A number of my friends have HBO. Why? Deadwood & The Sopranos. No other reason. Ocasionaly they may watch a movie or some of HBO's other content. But for them its worth it to pay $10 a month extra to watch two shows. Capitalism at its core is simple. Give people smething they want and they'll pay for it(like HBO). Give them crap a whole lot of crap for free or cheap and they'll pay for something else that trims the crap and JUST gives em what they want (TIVO, iTunes music store).

As tech advances to where you don'tneed all kinds of million dollar exquipment to do the above, this becomes more and more true.

It's Capitalism. Get over it

[LehiNephi]

TiVo, with its associated abundance of convenient features, is merely the response of a free market to a real demand. Keep in mind these facts:

1.) People like certain shows, so they buy a TV.
2.) These shows are only shown on cable, so people subscribe to a cable service.
3.) People can't always watch those shows when the shows are broadcast, so they buy a VCR.
4.) People (in general) don't want to watch commercials, so they buy a TiVo.(I'm not saying that it's the only reason people buy it, it's just one)

With each step, the monetary expense increases. But consumers consider it worth the money. One major problem I see here, however, is that cable channels (in the beginning) were commercial-free. They were paid for by the subscription fees. Now, not only do you have to pay the cable company more than ever to watch the same shows, you now have a third of your time wasted by commercials.

This is why TiVo is becoming more popular. It's convenient. Someone needs to explain that term to the RIAA and MPAA.

Tivo Is Just Legitimizing What's Already Possible

[baudilus]

While I can see why the MPAA and NFL would want to fight Tivo on this, I don't think Tivo is doing anything revolutionary at all. Digitizing content from TV has been possible for several years. If it's illegal with Tivo, then it's illegal with a VCR, a DVD-R, a PC-base PVR, and a host of other ways to get broadcast TV onto the PC. There is no way this can possibly be enforced. Tivo is the target because it is the most popular commercially available PVR, plain and simple. I just don't see Tivo losing this battle.

Reality to NFL and HOLLY WOULD

[Sfing_ter]

That ship has sailed.
The cat is out of the bag.
The gate is open on the corral.
Been there, done that.

Zoidberg: That's why I love Earth. You can do what you want, and no one makes you feel guilty, because no one cares.
Fry: We're not listening!
Zoidberg: That's what I'm talking about!

And frankly, that's it... I have been able to do it with vhs for years, and I will continue to do it with new technology. I have my pvr card so FOAH. I record movies, ppv movies, tv shows et. and it is none of your bizness. I keep what I want.

I am not listening, I am acting.

If it comes to my tv it's for my enjoyment period.
If you don't want me to have it, don't show it.

I don't understand the NFL's concerns

[angle_slam]

The NFL, the largest and most popular sport league in the US, is concerned that someone might TiVo a game and send it to someone else. Why? A game is only useful if it is live. Even a 1 hour delay makes the game's value nearly nil.

There are two reasons a fan would want a TiVo'd game. (1) the game isn't broadcast in their area. E.g., a Steelers fan who lives in Nebraska might not get the Steelers on their TV. The solution: NFL Sunday Ticket. "But that's exclusive to DirecTV?" says the NFL. Well whose fucking fault is that. There are plenty of people who would be willing to pay for NFL Sunday Ticket if it were available through Cable companies. They can't because the greedy NFL signs a multi-billion dollar contract with DirecTV. (I want Sunday Ticket, but my apartment faces north. I can't get DirecTV.)

(2) the game is blacked out. A Steelers fan might not see the Steelers because the game is blacked out. Actually, the Steelers are a bad example because they haven't been blacked out in 30 years. So let's use the Cardinals. Their home games are never broadcast in Phoenix because they never come close to selling out. The whole purpose of the blackout policy is to force fans to buy tickets to prevent the blackout. It obviously doesn't work because the Cards still only get 30,000 fans per game. So why do they still use this outdated, policy that doesn't work? None of the other major sports black out home game.

The NFL can end the market for Tivo'd games by merely offering NFL Sunday Ticket to all cable companies and ending the blackout policy that doesn't work.

Dammit dammit dammit!

[jeblucas]

I feel like a sheep. Like I'm just being sheparded around told what to like, how to like it, and how long to like it before have my hindquarters slapped over to the next pasture. "You're done enjoying that NFL game. Go watch this now." Everytime a company comes along and says "hey, we're not trying to screw you, do what you want," a thousand other companies come out of the woodwork to shout them down. This is just part-and-parcel with the following other travesties:

• VoIP must be stopped! It lets people make phone calls without paying someone [other than the broadband provider]!
• Making people pay [a fortune] for commercial television. I remember when people thought it was okay to pay for cable because you got things like HBO, which didn't have commercials. HBO still doesn't have commercials, but it's still an extra $12/mo on your $60 cable bill.
• When did ease-of-use become piracy? I used to make mixtapes for girlfriends. I had the Jerky Boys calls on some umpteenth generation copy of a copy. I don't remember anyone up in arms about this--the Jerky Boys got a movie deal out of that underground phenomenon. Now that I can easily make a share a mix it's illegal?

Don't give up everyone. Write your Congressperson. Some of you live in Utah. Do something about it.

Hollywood/NFL Living in The Past

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

It's time for hollywood, NFL,RIAA and others to wake up and smell the CPU cycles.
People want to record TV shows,films and radio broadcasts. Not because they're freeloaders. It's because they like TV and want to watch it again. If you can't accept this and make money off it, then you have a poor business model and deserve to get driven out of business by smarter competetors.

The mass media have made money for one simple reason. They had a monopoly on the production and distrobution technologies of the media. Only they could afford radio towers, film reels and copying technology. Through this they have also maintained a monopsony over the base talent which they promote. Hence the low signal to noise ratio on TV and radio. Now, thanks to technology, even your average joe sixpack has the technology to copy a TV broadcast of music track. TiVo has given him the power to record the game, the soaps, the news, so he can watch them again. Does this mean we should shut down TiVo so the monopoly can continue?

HDD based TV recorders. MPAA and NFL want to shut them down because they encourage 'theft' of signals floating around in peoples homes. Nonsense. They just wish to maintain a monopoly over the distribution of their content, so they can jack up the price for their wares.

They deserve to be driven out of business.

If you want an example of a company that is using peoples wants and likes to make money out of HDD recorders, look no further than Sky+. Sky actually encourage people to record TV shows and are making a mint off it.

Put that in your smoke and pipe in NFAA!!! :E

Re:What's next - big brother?

[Nfnitloop]

The NFL is not concerned about their highlight tapes. As the article mentioned, they don't want people on the east coast to be able to record a game and send it to someone on the west coast before the game even airs there.

My understanding is the games are blacked out now until every time zone is prime-time so that more people will watch the game and more people will watch the commercials (which is what it's all about anyway, right?)

Re:let me beat the mythtv diy PVR drum =)

[enrico_suave]

I'll play your game rogue...

There ARE easy to setup PC PVR options. I shlopped a PVR350 in a box paired with SageTV (review) and it was pretty simple.

The cost thing is a valid concern. There is potentially a larger initial cash outlay (but no subscription fees.)

With that said the DirectTV deals with Tivo (which are they still being offered? Didnt't DTV and tivo have a bitter divorce quite publiclly last month?) ARE a great value if you go the satellite route. Dual tuning, digital only stream, Tivo ease of use, low subscription...

But out of the box without modification (software or hardware) you can't get the content off your DTV tivo box, which is the point of this article.

Another compelling reason is if you are a paranoid schizo and don't trust TiVo (no matter WHAT their privacy statements say, and oh by the way they can change them at any time) about collecting info on your viewing habits... if you DIY you can have more control over what goes in and out of your DIY PVR (unless you tape MTV, I can't help the GIGO there)

Note: I own and love my tivo and don't wear a tinfoil hat, just thought I point it out as a potential reasoning.

Now if Dishnetwork and DirectTV would supply the needed daughter cards/access cards to digital satellite PCI PVR cards we wouldn't be able to argue about the "re-encoding digital content" issue. (you can use those cards in Europe with subscription satellite services, but not here, from what I understand)

*shrug* YMMV,

e.

Boo-frickety-hoo...

[Shadow2097]

From TFA: "The NFL, meanwhile, is concerned that a user could send a copy of a game to someone in another time zone, where the game is blacked out."

Cry me a freaking river. I'm a huge NFL fan, but as I'm just out of school, I don't have the money to afford to buy tickets for the games. Yet, if the stadium isn't sold out, the home-team TV markets are forbidden from showing the game because if people really wanted to see it, they'd pony up and buy up all the available tickets. Thats the contractual agreement the NFL made with CBS and Fox. So what happens if other people don't want to buy tickets? I'm unable to watch my team play.

The networks are broadcasting it elsewhere, just not in my area. So if the NFL has a problem with me doing what it takes to LEGALLY acquire game footage, they can go screw themselves. Last I heard, having someone give me a tape of anything broadcast on network television, so long as its not sold for profit, is entirely legal.

This is me, playing My Heart Bleeds For You on the worlds smallest violin. It looks amazingly similar to my middle finger.

-Shadow

Re:Can't help but equate with gun rights

[Artifakt]

Guns are effectively the only subject of the 2nd amendment. Until and unless communications related electronics are seen as a subject of the 1st amendment, our rights are not going to see the same level of protection. Right now, the legal underpinning for all to many laws controlling such devices is widely seen, in political circles, as being derived only from customary law or just possibly restricted by the 9th amendment. Ultimately, this is about a struggle for the 1st.

Re:What's next - big brother?

[Blimey85]

When you can access the games you want to see for free via the intarweb, you no longer need to pony up the dollars for NFL Sunday Ticket. I'm a Cowboys fan and I live in Seattle so I don't get to see many of their games... I also live in an apartment where dishes aren't allowed so I don't have the ability to get NFL Sunday Ticket since as of yet the NFL has not made a deal with any cable companies. I can get the same thing for any other major sport and did get it two years ago for NCAA football. If I could download the games I wanted to see, even a few days after they have aired, I would. If I could buy their games, especially playoff and Super Bowl games, I would. But for some reason the NFL doesn't sell this stuff. I bought my dad some highlight tapes a few years back but no complete games are available for purchase... and why not? I don't know why they don't sell them... seems like it would be a pretty good market. I wouldn't mind having all of the Super Bowls... especially the older ones that happened before I was born. All we need is a fiber optic connection to our homes and 16 people with Tivos and NFL Sunday Ticket (16 because there are 32 teams so 16 games each weekend... of course they aren't all on at the same time but this way we are covered). Save the game and share it immediately... or better yet, share it while it's still on... maybe a 10 minute delay or something... but with the fiber optic connection, speeds should be fast enough to stream in real time so as soon as the Tivo has saved enough to start streaming, your good to go. That would be awesome.

Re:Who would download an OLD football game?!

[hal2814]

The article makes it look like the NFL is concerned mostly with viewers overriding blackout rules. For those who don't know, if a broadcast station is within X miles of a stadium, a game is being played in that stadium that day, and the game is not sold out (I think that 85% of capacity is concidered sold out) then that broacast affiliate cannot air the game. This is called a blackout and the idea is that people who really want to see the game will need to go to the stadium to see it. Only after the stadium is full, can viewers watch it on TV.

Re:Suggestion for a new business model

[embo]

This is a fantastic idea. And it will never happen. Why? Because no matter how cheap you make it, there will still be people who won't pay a fucking nickel to see the show, and will want to get it for free. And there will always be enough of them to discourage the purveyors of said media from doing something like this.

The minute you open this up for a nickel a show, there will be free copies of the same thing out on the P2P networks, because people would rather spend the extra time thinking they are getting it for free than they would to take the time to pay the nickel for seeing the show. Say all you want about people being willing to pay for it. There are still going to be enough who aren't, because people, for the most part, suck.

Re:Who would download an OLD football game?!

[JudgeFurious]

Well, I would.

To begin with you would actually need to be a football fan. Since you start off with "Football is boring enough as it is" I think it's safe to assume that you're not one. Obviously this precludes any ability to see the point of recording football games (not that there's anything wrong with that of course).

I live in Houston Texas. I'm a football fan and in 2002 the Houston Texans began playing. I've recorded every game and every off season I make about 100-120 copies for other Texans fans. Maybe the games aren't being shown in their area and they couldn't watch them or maybe they just want to watch a specific series or play again. Whatever the reason the demand seems pretty real to me.

The NFL is exceptionally stupid in the way they handle their old footage. While TV studios are making bank selling old television series by the season the NFL sits on their old games and from time to time doles out a highlight DVD. If they would sell teams seasons to the fans they could be fleecing them year round (instead of just during football season with expensive tickets, parking, and $8 beer).

Dear Hollywood

[Duck of Death]

Dear Hollywood,

I missed the season finale of West Wing this year and no one I know has taped it. Rather than wait until you re-air it in September, I would really like download or stream a copy of the show to my home so I can watch it. Go ahead and downsample it to VCD quality if you want. I just want to watch the show. I'm quite willing to pay, too. I think $1 is a fair price for a 45 minute, low bandwidth copy of a show that has already aired. There are other episodes of other shows I would really like to have copies of (I'm not interested in buying whole collections, but there are certain episodes of certain shows I'd like to own). Please let me know where I can go to pay for and download this material. Seriously. I've got cash.

Dear NFL:

I've never watched a whole football game in my life. You can do whatever the hell you want. I don't care.

Dear Music Industry,

Your prices are too high. You are competing against DVD's for my entertainment dollars and they consistently offer better value. In the past two years I've bought about 30 DVD's and maybe four CD's. And just so you know, I haven't downloaded music for over 2.5 years. Actually, that 4 CD figure is not correct. Last year BMG offered every title in their catalog for $7 and we bought 14 CD's. So it appears that, for me at least, the $7 price point puts you right back in the running for those entertainment dollars I was talking about. Oh, and by the way, BMG messed up the order and sent 8 incorrect titles. They sent along the correct titles and told us to keep the other ones (so we actually got 22 CD's for $100). It appears that it wasn't even worth the cost to return ship and restock those 8 CD's. How much do those things cost you anyway? There are a lot of titles I'm interested in but refuse to buy at the current prices. If you drop your prices to $5, I would probably buy 20 titles immediately and at least 10 titles per year thereafter. You would earn MUCH more off of me than you are under your current pricing structure.

Love,

DoD