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Second Post-Apple Newton Life?
An anonymous reader with a lot of time on his hands writes "As seen on Slashdot b e f o r e, the Newton refuses to die. Since Apple discontinued it, it got ATA, WiFi, Bluetooth, Zeroconf and even a NES emulator. Now, several Mac news sites r e p o r t, Newton users founded an association with John Sculley, who pushed the Newton at Apple, as its honorary president. They're organizing a conference in Paris in September. How long until all these users switch to new hardware?"
Sounds like Newton has an inertia of its own!
"An object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."
John Kerry is a Joke!
The Newton does the same job of my Palm Tungsten - and even surpasses it (my Tungsten E doesn't yet have WiFi support, and I can pick up a second hand Newton for quite a bit cheaper). Clearly though, this is a niche market. My Newton is too large for me to use regularly, but it's a great curiosity.
I think of the Newton like the NES - the games on the NES were great, and are still very popular (take the recent GameBoy Advance NES special edition). The NES formed the basis of many great consoles to come. But even though the NES is still a great machine (like the Newton), I probably would prefer to play on a PlayStation. Although, the flaw in this (rather basdly though out) analogy between the Newton and the NES would be one of them sold extremely well...
I liked the article that Crazy Apple Rumors had on it.
The dogcow says "Moof!"
I have a 2000, and i personally love it's form factor, it has a nice large screen. I use it for about everything you would normally use a PDA for.. Calendaring, contacts, etc etc.
I also use it for things such as doing Serial consoles on headless linux servers. The large screen makes the serial term a bit easier to use.
Who needs a color screen anyway, when you have a nice big green one =P not to mention the twin 5v PCMCIA slots for uber-expandability.
Also a good portion of the newton software makers, have long since been giving away their former products, so the software is free as well.
Long Live the Newton!
-Henry
--- #@$DF@#2%@^%3^&*$%FRHG%%[NO CARRIER]
Apple using their iPod popularity to move excitement to a handheld marketed to a younger generation.
I know it sounds confounded but think. They are blowing away the rest of the mp3 player competitors due to their marketing.
Now, I don't think Jobs would even consider something like that, actually he's laugh me out of whatever room I'm in if I mentioned it.
But if they can create such a buzz with the iPod couldn't they ride the buzz with a hip pocket organizer or even a program that syncs with the iPod combining all the third party news grab and weather grab apps into something that the iPod user could use to sync with other information.
Could they translate this underground buzz into something big? I think so.
"It'll destroy you if you try to make it mean anything to anyone but yourself." - Henry Rollins
Which new hardware, exactly, will they switch to? A close co-worker of mine refuses to lay his Newton to rest, asserting that there are no modern products that compare. This is a subjective opinion of his, of course, but it establishes the sentiments that the users of this ancient PDA seem to share.
Funny how the lousy 1 character links (Thanks Michael!!! not) are just 2 stories above a story about lousy UI design. Go figure.
What ever happened to letting us know where the links to go? For some reason, I have a feeling that single character links are not what Tim Berners-Lee had in mind for this thing.
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
The Newton Community is a very interesting case of users continuing to support a product which for all intents and purposes should have died years ago. Is there a good reason, other than 'I hate everything that Microsoft does no matter what and nobody will ever change my mind', why these users would not be satisified with a shinny new TabletPC or Pocket PC? On the other hand why does Apple continue to shun these users when there is clearly a market for an new Apple handheld computing device? Strange that Apple would not wish to compete with Microsoft by offering their own version of the TabletPC. Perhaps some Newton users could comment on these issues.
Some people may know me as the anti apple advocate however after using a newton (5 years ago) I must admit I was impressed by its ability to recognize handwriting, battery life, forward thinking construction and the fact that it was so ahead of its time(and still is in some ways)
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
I started with a Newton. It was big and sort of clumsy physically, though. So, I went to a PalmOS device. It paled in functionality by comparison, though. So I went to a Windows CE-based device. It was slow and clumsy and just not as metaphorically intutive.
In the end, I ended up with a Newton 2000 again. With other PDAs, I eventually just stop using them. With the Newton 2000, even though I bitch about its size, I find myself using it all the time.
It recognizes my handwriting, as fast as I can write it, the way I write it (without needing a cursor to position the text, without needing to learn a special alphabet, without needing to write all letters over one another or write in a specific area of the screen). It has a unique chronological interface for categorizing and indexing (the index view vs. the content view, plus the "scrollable" nature of the content you create, rather than storing things in "files" or "documents").
Recently a friend gave me a Linux-based Zaurus PDA. It's a great little PDA and it's cool to start the Terminal and type linux commands on the slide-out keyboard.
But there's just nothing like the Newton; it's not a subtle difference at all... the Newton's entire user interface is a radical departure from anything else in computing, and until you've tried it for a week or two, you have no idea just how poorly designed current PDAs are, software-wise.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Amiga.
Look at how long the Amiga fans have been holding onto that platform. If it wasn't for them, I would probably no longer remember what an Amiga even was. Same can be said for OS/2 - look at eComStation. Great products tend to outlast vendor interest.
How long until all these users switch to new hardware?"
Considering the number of Amiga fan sites, and people that still use Amigas - not any time soon.
cluge
AnygryPeopleRule
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
Since modern PDAs run the same CPU as the Newton, why hasn't someone tried to write a Newton emulator for PocketPC, Zaurus, etc.? That would be the best of both worlds: Newton OS on a faster ARM CPU.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Most computer users have gotten very used to the windows/mac/gnome/kde/cde/etc way of doing things. Sure, they all look different, but I'll bet you can figure out the basics and successfully get general user-level stuff after a little aclimitization. It's all the same ideas in different skins.
The Newton interface is different. Whether you love it or hate it, it's still interesting to see that there are other ways of doing things.
Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
My company bought me a first generation Newton when they came out and sent me to developer school for them - I prototyped a neat real estate app for them.
Anyway, it (and the MP2000 I use today) are still great PDAs - does everything I need it to do with a lot of thoughtfulness in terms of UI design. Best of all, in the 10 years I have had it, I have never once lost a single piece of data on the system - never restored a backup either!
It was also a blast to write code for.
iSync already synchronizes contacts and appointments to an iPod. Further, you can put text files into a root-level folder on the iPod called "Notes", and they appear under Extras->Notes(you can put notes on the root level menu if you want).
I believe there's also some sort of way to do rich-text documents, and rudimentary databases, but I'm not sure.
I do the text file bit all the time for driving directions- the only irritation is that the iPod jumps back to the whatever's-playing screen rather quickly. In fact, with the text-clipping functionality in OS X, I just drag the selected text to the iPod icon, it spring-boards open, then drop it on Notes. Done!
Please help metamoderate.
Because Apple believes that the PDA and cell phone markets will likely converge in the near future, and aren't really interested in competing in the cell phone market right now. Steve Jobs has said as much in numerous interviews.
Now that the PDA market is in full swing, apple could get back into it and make some money.
:(
They created the market, if they only had the patience to stick it out
You really cant replace a Newt with the dismal offerings of today. It was designed from the ground up as a handheld device, what we have today uses desktop OS's grafted onto a palm sized device...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
...is what made it a great thing. Okay, that statement's completely obvious, so why did I mention it?
I bought my Newton 2100 just after they were discontinued. I loved it, but couldn't use it at work (factory at the time). My Palm V, and later two Sony Clie's (the second of which I still have and use) just fit in my pocket and did everything I needed them to do. Where they quite as elegant? No friggin way, but they fit into my pocket.
Now were the Newton's OS to be put into a "modern" form factor, I think I'd be sold again. Just thinking about is makes me kind of miss it (although I guess I could say the same for my C=128).
On the other hand, I'm kind of now in the ballpark of believers that the PDA-only market is not going to recover. It's going to be PDA/mobile phone combinations. The current line of such combo's is ugly (hey, I'm a geek but don't have to look like a nerd). My T616 is a good step, but it's missing about everything else that's not built-in to a Palm or Netwon.
--Jim (me)
The eMate is the coolest thing. Ever. But what's wrong with it is that the processor is too slow. And while it's true that there are projects making the newton OS work with wifi, bluetooth, etc., in practice, I can do very little with this stuff. I bought a wifi card that is supposed to be compatible but found out it doesn't work with 802.11b. I'm not sure what it works with, but it's useless to me since my network, like most people's, is 802.11. I got an ethernet card that is supposed to work. There are drivers. But the catch is the ethernet card is only good to use for AppleTalk, and I can't see the device under OS X. I got a Keyspan USB adapter to install programs and it works for five minutes then the computer (not the newton) crashes. This happens whether I use Escale, NewTen, or NewtSync. All of these may be problems stemming from my own impatience; I haven't spent more than a few sleepless nights trying to get this stuff to work. But in answer to your question about why new hardware, two reasons: 1 - faster processing. It would be so great to have this emate run as fast as a new palm. 2 - you don't need to give up your job and family and friends to spend time getting things to connect to modern systems that it really isn't intended to connect to. It's great for hackers but not for the rest of us. Finally, I want to add why I do want a new newton -- the OS is great, but what I really love is the form factor of the emate. The newton handhelds are cool too but as the parent points out, too large. But for someone like me who needs to write a lot and who likes a good keyboard, the eMate is the godfather of portables. It's light. It's plastic, and it takes a beating. Its keyboard has great response but is almost totally silent so you can sit in a lecture room and type notes without bugging your neighbors. It has a handle. Handles rule. Apple should put handles on everything. It has instant on -- no waiting for the damn thing to boot. And it's a chick magnet! Oh please Apple, or anyone, figure out how to put a modern processor in a case like this. I don't even need a color screen (prefer battery life!) or tons of disk space or mp3 player or camera or any of that stuff -- just give me portability, battery life, basic text editor applications, some internet stuff - web browser, minimalistic email program, and a telnet/ssh terminal program.
Last week I picked up a Tapwave Zodiac as a new PDA after having lusted after -some- form of small, useful PDA for years. I have a Newton 2100, but it's simply too large for my usual uses, and I never picked up the memory cards and wifi card to really make it useful around the house. Someday I still intend to do this, however. But what struck me as soon as I got the Zodiac home is how much the basic form factor of it resembled that of the almost ten-year-old Newton design. Two expansion slots at the top, large (comparatively) screen, flipcover for the LCD, and an emphasis on being able to be used in landscape mode.
Aside from a few design flaws the Zodiac has in regards to the stylus location and a flipcover, it feels like a Newton in many respects - other than the OS. PalmOS really feels quite weak compared to what the NewtonOS can do, and I really wish that Palm had learned more from what Apple managed to do so many years ago. Screens now are creeping up on the level of pixel density really required for some good UI design, but the operating systems just aren't keeping up. Now, it's also a shame it's taking Palm six versions to get to multitasking.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
But is it possible yet to make a beowulf cluster of the darn things? Imagine!
Actually...
A long time ago, I wrote a little distributed object API for the Newton. Although, calling it an "API" is a bit grandiose. But I used it for some simple distributed processing, at that time running some simple genetic algorithms.
So yeah, you can make a Beowulf cluster of Newtons.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I will. I'm an emate fan as I noted in an earlier post. Here's what I want:
- Form factor of the original. It's different for the handheld newtons but for the emate this means a usable keyboard that makes very little noise and a handle (and preferably indestructible green plastic around everything).
- An option to get a greyscale screen. Color will be cool but I prefer battery life and it would be great if there was a much cheaper greyscale option.
- A reasonably fast processor -- no need for 300+MHz they're putting in Axims and stuff, just something as fast as what's in last year's Palms.
- Easy internet with wifi, as well as easy sync of key documents. My biggest complaint about my emate is I can't figure out how to turn the stuff I type into documents on my computer that I can edit easily. Or put textfiles from my computer onto my emate. I can do this with any new pda (I can even do it with my ipod).
- Text editor. Something simple like the notepad included is fine, though preferably something with more modern capabilities. A NewtonOS equivalent of BBEdit would ROCK. (Yeah yeah so would emacs, I suppose).
- A terminal emulater that at least does ssh connections.
- A simple web browser.
- An email program.
That's about it. I don't want a camera, mp3 player, or phone, but any of those things could be included as options. You don't need to design something I can hold with my neck -- just stick a headset jack on the machine. Personally I want it to look like the emate. That oqo is pretty cool looking but I bet the keypad is a bitch to type on. If you're just talking about handhelds, I'd ditch the keypad, or maybe just leave a number pad for dialing (assuming it's a cellphone) on one side of it, but otherwise just go for something like the Clie T55 form factor. Keep it simple. There's no need for a keypad nobody will use. If you want a usable keyboard, make a bigger device. Those are just my thoughts, I'm sure others will disagree....I've been a technology guy at two companies that, at least for a time, were very serious about building software for PDAs and other handheld devices. These days, all of the momentum has shifted to writing applications for phones.
That said, I've had occasion to use at length every single Palm (including the newest Treos and Clies), Pocket PC, MagicCap device, etc.
To this day, I keep a Newton MP2100 charged and ready to go behind my desk. Why? Meetings. The Newton's larger form factor makes it ideal for taking notes in meetings. Laptops are too distracting and unnatural, and anything with a smaller screen is too awkward. Further, the Newt's handwriting recognition makes note taking a natural task. Try graffiti for a lengthy set of detailed meeting notes, and you'll see what I mean.
It helps that the user community has kept up with change. I use NewtSync to sync the notes I take on my Newton back to OS X. It also nicely copies my calendar, contacts, and to-do lists to my Newton.
I must admit that I've ben eying an OQO, but with each passing day, its fixed specs are starting to seem less and less impressive, and I don't think I could see myself typing away at one during a meeting.
Think about this... the original OS for the iPod was based on work from a company called Pixo, which was founded by...wait for it... a bunch of former Newton Group members. The extensability is there. All that is lacking is the support of the man who single-handedly quashed the spinoff of the Newton Group (nee Newton, Inc.) and told everyone to pack their desks. IIRC, the quarter in which the Newton was killed, there were only two profitable divisions within Apple, and NSG was one of them.
Palm is probably going to win this market and another incompatible me-too product isn't going to be successful. Moreover the basic Palm technology is a 70 dollar Zire and all the other models are just bigger better Zires with a few extra features. Newton would have to compete on all those product axes simultaneously which of course is silly.
I've been wondering that ever since I purchased my $300 palm Zire 71. The GUI is terrible compared to the Newton. I makes me sad.
So, just how much would it cost to build the old newton at todays prices for screens, batteries, the strongARM CPU, etc. Could it compete with the PalmOS and PocketPC's on price point?
They won't make a new Newton for the same reason why they won't make a new Apple // computer, they want to move on to other things.
They most likely think that the iPod has more priority than making a Newton, so R&D goes towards improving the iPod and not the Newton.
Besides the iPod can easily be turned into a PDA with the right software. Just no handwriting recognition like the Newton has.
What Apple should do is sell the Newton technology or license it to a third party interested in making Newtons. Then sit back and collect the royalties or whatever.
At one time Apple almost considered using a PalmOS device. Remember that is what the Newton would be competing against.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
I've always been a multi-platform user, and have always been able to properly deride and/or appreciate the various advantages and disadvantages each platform brings to the table.
As most will agree, Apple hardware in particular has historically been introduced at higher retail price points. However, I've always been struck by the value inherent to Apple hardware as compared to other platforms. I usually build a new Windows based PC for gaming and administrative tasks every 2 years or so, costing anywhere from $700 - $1000 (I don't use pirated software. I use only name brand components), usually relegating said Windows box to serving using Linux or other serving tasks.
My Newtons, while initially pricey, still play a vital role in my day-to-day business operations today, years later. (to this day, I still get many queries by curious onlookers wondering if this was a new piece of Apple hardware, and where they can get one...) In addition, I still use my first generation G4 Macs for content creation, video editing, and with some peripherals, DVD authoring. I paid upwards of $2,500 for the Macs in 1999, but they continue to serve me today, and I foresee utilizing them for at least another 2 years. This brings the cost of ownership down to Windows box levels, for what I feel are more elegantly designed, integrated machines.
Much can be said about Apples choices in pricing and "chic" design, but I've always found the "now" factor and expense of Apple harware to bear out quite well in the long run. The Newton brought to the handheld market not only forward thinking innovation, but, I think, renewable sustainability.
Right now, there are a handful of devices that could preplace my eMate.
s _h andheld_comeback/
I love the eMate, and the pre-iMac translucent color, but its too slow, and needs a grayscale screen. I do love the keyboard and long lasting battery life.
Here is the lineup of eMate wannabes. The downside of all of them is that they use Win-duh-ohs.
NEC (MobilePro 900c)
Psion Teklogix (NetBook Pro)
Zupera Technology (SmartBook) (China)
Motorola (MPx Pocket Phone)
HP (Jornada 728)
However, HP may be coming out with a very eMate-like palmtop.
Here is the link to the new HP:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/06/hp_moot
Since HP is licensing the iPod from Apple, perhaps Apple could license HP's new little palmtop with a full sized keyboard. It is, after all, supposed to be a cell phone too.
Regards,
Roger Born
writing.borngraphics.com
Hahaha, Newtons!
Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.
Every time the Newt comes up in a /. discussion, many people slam it for its larger-than-palm-sized form factor(s). And I think they have a point, I believe a smaller Newton would have been a market success.
Keep in mind, however, that the lack of a palm-sized Newt was at most a temporary situation. One of the great things about NewtOS and NewtonScript is that they were designed to support a practically unlimited variety of form factors. With some forethought and clever UI design, a single Newton app could run on anything from a watch to a jumbotron sized device - a point *often* made by the Newton developer support group.
In fact, I was in Cupertino only days before the rollout of Newton Inc. as an independent subsidiary of Apple (a move unfortunately aborted by Jobs upon his return). While I was there, I saw physical prototypes of Newton-logo'ed devices the size of watches and legal-sized tablets. I assume these were working prototypes because I saw them on the repair bench.
As an independent developer of vertical market mobile-computing applications, my company was very excited by the potential and possibilities of the Newton platform. When Apple axed it, that was pretty much the end of our enterprise, as no other platform available at the time was as capable for such an affordable price - for some applications, there was no alternative platform at *any* price.
And we were hardly unique. There were scores of small and mid-sized mobile-computing developers that were starting to make a real go of it. Nearly all of them folded up shop within a year or two of Newton inc's demise. Quite frankly, Apple threw away the Newt just when it was starting to catch on with industry. We are only *just now* - years later - starting to see mobile platform solutions that can be deployed as inexpensively and efficiently as was being done with the Newton.
Its a situation very similar to the 'dark age' of voice-rec software we are just now beginning to emerge from following the implosion of Dragon Sytems/L&H et al.