Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Syllable - The Little OS with a Big Future?

Posted by simoniker on from the um-ah-dah-leh dept.

Vanders writes "Tired of endless Windows security problems? Intrigued by Linux's power but discouraged by its complexity? Tempted by Mac OS but not thrilled with the hardware cost? In an OSNews article, Michael Saunders takes a look at Syllable, the OS that picked up where AtheOS left off over two years ago. Michael takes you through Syllable and shows you what we have been doing these past few years."

36 of 397 comments (clear)

  1. Sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If it can solve the problems Linux has on the desktop, namely incredibly poor software installation and ugly graphics, it might have a chance. It seems promising, but then again, so does Linux. I've been wishing Linux on to the desktop, but it just doesn't seem like it's happening.

    Question: Is there any way to use Linux device drivers with this os? How hard would it be to "port" Syllable to Linux?

    1. Re:Sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Poor software installation ? Have you ever seen apt-get and portage ?

    2. Re:Sure by Vanders · · Score: 3, Informative

      Question: Is there any way to use Linux device drivers with this os?

      Almost all of the drivers are Linux drivers, originally. They have been ported to use Syllable API's, but they're not that different. If you know enough about device drivers you can port a driver from Linux in a couple of days. Some people have ported drivers in a matter of hours.

      --
      Syllable : It's an Operating System
    3. Re:Sure by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Furthermore, it shouldn't be necessary to use a CLI, ever.

      I agree. I would further propose that it shouldn't be necessary to use a GUI, ever.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Sure by moonbender · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Anyone can install a tarball and with great scripts like CompileProgram anyone can install it with one command.

      No. You can do that, and I can probably figure it out easily enough, but no, most people can not install a program from source. Although I'm sure they could be enabled to do it - portage is a start, an easy to use graphical portage would be even more of a start.

      --
      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
    5. Re:Sure by ajs · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Define ugly graphics.

      There are about 2000 themes for various desktop systems (from Gnome to KDE to WindowMaker) and of those there are probably about 20-30 that are solid enough that I would consider them full default-theme replacements.

      Are you refering to all of those, or did you just install some random distribution and declare it "ugly" (by your standards)? Are you refering to the lack of 3D acceleration on the desktop (e.g. what MacOS/X gets from having written their desktop on top of an Open/GL layer)? If so, that's a valid concern, but starting with the work x.org has done and implementing the rest would certainly have been easier than writing from scratch.

      Question: Is there any way to use Linux device drivers with this os?

      Probably not, and even if this OS were able to take advantage of Linux drivers, I doubt that it could take advantage of the larger subsystems like filesystems, networking stacks, cryptography, etc.

      What I'd really like to see is some of these (obviously massively talented) people who go off and do their own thing, actually starting with a working system like BSD or Linux, but building something of their own, not just a distribution.

      For example, these folks seem to want a system designed for the end-user with lots of media features... ok, so why wouldn't you start with a Linux kernel that supports just about every graphics and sound board on the planet... then layer on pieces as needed. Perhaps a modified X server would help, perhaps not... use it if you need it. Perhaps the filesystems aren't quite up to what you want, but you can always modify existing code. Maybe gstreamer is a good support library for what you're doing, perhaps not.

      Well, you get the idea.

      When Linus started off, he wanted something that didn't exist. BSD wasn't actually available for x86 yet, and down-porting it from Suns and VAXen was more work than he could afford. Meanwhile, Minix was too limited to even work as a good starting point. That's no longer the case, and efforts like this one seem to me much like Linus having decided that he wanted to write his little terminal server by first designing his own system bus.

      Still, I wish them all the luck in the world. I hope it works out well for them... it's just that I can't help thinking about how much more they could do with a good starting point.

    6. Re:Sure by Vanders · · Score: 5, Informative

      ..so why wouldn't you start with a Linux kernel that supports just about every graphics and sound board on the planet...

      Not to be too crude, but it is because the Linux driver model sucks large Dyson Spheres through capilary tubing. It has an extremely high Lovelace value. Anyway, the Linux and Syllable kernel APIs (I'm talking about the driver->kernel API, not the API's that define how a driver is managed) are very similiar, so much so that most drivers are ported from Linux in about a week or two. The SiS 900 NIC driver was ported by Michael Krugger in half a day. I ported the Ymfpci OSS driver in about a week of a few hours a day. Syllable has the advantage of being able to draw on a large driver codebase while at the same time totally avoiding what many of us see has the total sucktitude of Linux driver management in general.

      Maybe gstreamer is a good support library for what you're doing, perhaps not.

      Actually, ffmpeg drives almost all of the media codecs currently available.

      Syllable did not spring into life from a total vacum. It was forked from AtheOS, when AtheOS was already at quite an advanced stage. Kurt wrote AtheOS for fun. I and many other developers thought AtheOS was very cool, and I created Syllable to keep it alive and keep it cool. If I were to sit down today, and AtheOS and Syllable did not exist, I would probably do exactly as you describe and start with Linux. I don't think it would be half as well designed as Syllable is.

      --
      Syllable : It's an Operating System
    7. Re:Sure by be-fan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When Adobe ports Photoshop to Linux how are they going to distribute it to anyone that wants to download it from their site?
      Set up an APT repository for it :) If there isn't already one, it would be pretty easy to create a program that would open "repository files" and automatically add them to your sources.list.

      There is no simple, standard way to distribute an application for each version of Linux that will install. Windows DOES IT. Linux DOES NOT.
      Linux isn't an OS. Debian is an OS. There is a simple, standard way to distribute an application for Debian, just as in Windows.

      Furthermore, it shouldn't be necessary to use a CLI, ever.
      It's really not necessary to use the CLI to do package installation. It's just easier to describe on the web. A GUI like Synaptic let's you do everything from finding packages to installing them, all from one interface. Much easier than doing the same thing under Windows.

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
    8. Re:Sure by Nasarius · · Score: 3, Informative
      echo net-www/links -X >> /etc/portage/package.use

      Portage has had this feature for many months now. BTW, I assumed you're actually talking about links, because lynx has no X USE flag.

      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
  2. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  3. The question is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Is their web site powered by Syllable? And can it withstand the /.?

  4. Finally! by Daneurysm · · Score: 3, Funny

    the OS that picked up where AtheOS left off over two years ago

    Finally!

    I've been severely missing an Os that excells in lack of support, lack of compatibility and an unsurpassed vapor-are factor.

    I'm in...

    1. Re:Finally! by Scrab · · Score: 4, Funny

      I take it you don't use windows then.... ;)

      --
      RoseColor red={0, 0xffff, 0x0000, 0x0000};VioletColour blue={0, 0x0000, 0x0000, 0xffff};find / -name *mybase*|chown you
    2. Re:Finally! by DarkHelmet · · Score: 4, Funny

      I prefer dead operating systems over unborn Operating Systems thank you very much.

      --
      /^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
    3. Re:Finally! by LnxAddct · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well gosh you could have had that since before Linux, I suggest you walk over to GNU.org and download yourself the Hurd!
      Regards,
      Steve

  5. *Sigh* Where are you BeOS? by NightWulf · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Now *there* was a great OS. Small, lean, easy to use, ran great. I know there's an attempt at an opensource BeOS but it seems to be a long way away. I looked at Syllables website, atleast they have a livecd, I might as well try it, got nothing to lose. Until then i'll still keep my midnight candlelight vigil until BeOS comes back.

    1. Re:*Sigh* Where are you BeOS? by craqboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      there are many different Beos opertating systems that have tried to pick up where Be left off. I just installed BeOS Max last week and love it. I have my tv tuner card working with firefox and some other stuff. I never thought an OS would run as good on the lil pentium 200 with 256 Mb of ram.

  6. Re:syllable.org slashdotted by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Informative

    As to the complexity of Linux issue. It appears to me that Syllable is a Linux based system

    Incorrect.

    using Gnome

    Incorrect.

    and it looks similar to Fedora in some ways.

    Probably superficial.

    So I ask you, how can a Linux system be less complex than Linux?

    Because it's not Linux. They swiped the icons. IIRC, AtheOS was written in 100% assembler as a pet project by the guy who wrote it. He (and others) later built some POSIX, KDE and GTK API mappings so that Linux and Unix software could be compiled and used.

    --
    Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
  7. Holy AtheOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Can you run AtheOS and still believe in God?

    1. Re:Holy AtheOS by spektr · · Score: 4, Funny

      Can you run AtheOS and still believe in God?

      Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it. -(Matthew 7:13-14)

      Translated into a more contemporary language, this means that you might still be on the safe side, at least as long as you don't touch Windows.

  8. i remember AtheOS... by torpor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... sorta sniffed at it when my aging BeBox arrived at its final unsupported destination, but ... I don't remember if this project had architecture-neutrality as a spec ... and i retired the BeBox and bought a powerbook instead, abandoning x86 forever (or at least as much as possible)...

    still, a powerpc port of another new and interesting OS would be an interesting endeavour. anyone care to answer the question as to how portable syllable is?

    --
    ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  9. Re:syllable.org slashdotted by Vanders · · Score: 5, Informative

    AtheOS was written in 100% assembler as a pet project by the guy who wrote it

    The kernel is written in C. The high level stuff is written in C and C++.

    He (and others) later built some POSIX, KDE and GTK API mappings..

    The AtheOS kernel has always been about 95% POSIX compliant. There are no KDE or GTK API's for Syllable; it has always had it's own C++ API and appserver.

    --
    Syllable : It's an Operating System
  10. MacOS Comparison by eeg3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Tempted by Mac OS but not thrilled with the hardware cost?"

    Ugh, having the start menu at the top isn't really making it like MacOS, and it sure seems that's the only similar thing. It doesn't even integrate the application menus into the title bar. Another great part of MacOS is the fact it "just works." I doubt you get this with Syllable. Furthermore, the MacOS UI is a lot nicer.

    Moreover, I doubt this OS will really take off with a "big future." BeOS/QNX/etc were a lot spiffier, and they didn't survive. I wish them the best of luck, however.

  11. Lacking? by Mullen · · Score: 4, Funny

    What's lacking: Some features and subsystems not yet coded; limited range of apps; occasional stability issues.

    Wow, just glad it's missing the little things that don't matter.

    --
    Linux O Muerte!
  12. Opportunity by iamdrscience · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't know if Syllable will be the ones to take advantage of it (or if anyone will), but I think that in the next few years there is a real opportunity for somebody to take over the PC operating system market. Microsoft has delayed Longhorn numerous times already, and it looks like the difference between WinXP and Longhorn will be as vast as the difference between Windows 3.11 and Win95. That added to the fact that many Windows users are already unsatisfied enough to be looking for something new.

    Apple will not be the ones to usurp windows because their hardware is too expensive for most people. Linux or other BSDs won't be the ones to take over because they're too difficult for most people. Even the most user-friendly distros like Mandrake and Redhat, despite their continuing progress and great efforts, have some problems. Most fundamentally I think it's the fact that despite all of the friendly aspects, it's very difficult for a user of Linux to avoid ever using the command-line. I think the way OSX uses the command-line is much more appropriate -- if you want to use it and learn it, it's there and you can use all of its power, but realistically, no normal user will ever be FORCED to learn how to use it.

    If Syllable manages to get some momentum, they might be able to do it. We'll see.

    Apple could become a contender if they decided to take the leap towards porting OSX to the PC, or working to make their hardware cheaper. Neither of those look very likely though, but they're certainly possibilities, and things I would love to see happen.

  13. Re:Limited Applications by Vanders · · Score: 3, Informative

    I would have also liked to see information about what would be involved in developing applications for Syllable. Is there a well-documented API? What about support for multiple languages?

    All the information you'd like is on the website but we're Slashdoted, so I can only ask you to try again in a few days time. The API is documented, there are some tutorials, example code is abundent and we're happy to answer questions in the forums and mailing lists. Multi-lingual support is currently in the CVS version which can be compiled if you want it, and will be officially available in the next release of Syllable.

    --
    Syllable : It's an Operating System
  14. Re:not quite there guys. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's not, at least not where it matters to the user! Consider:

    Driver installation. In Linux, mess around compiling your kernel and/or modprobing modules and editing /etc/conf.modules. In Syllable, just copy the driver into a directory.

    User-interface: single toolkit and desktop, sane design. Consistency is the result.

    Plus, there are other things. The initscripts are cleaner and shorter (one of the factors involved in the sub-10-second boots), the GUI subsystem is like X and a toolkit all-in-one, and others.

    So install it, and you'll see that it's not as complex at all!

  15. Re:syllable.org slashdotted by Vanders · · Score: 5, Informative

    The KHTML port is a total dead end; maintaining it is a nightmare. I hope we'll have a port of Gecko within the next 12 months, which will hopefully be much easier to maintain as it is designed to be portable. Personally I think we need stronger debugging tools before anyone tackles a large codebase like Gecko, so I intend to work on the development toolchain some more and then maybe tackle Gecko.

    --
    Syllable : It's an Operating System
  16. One of the pros was low memory use? by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is 64 Megs low memory usage?
    Seems like a pretty good chunk of memory if you ask me for a less than complete OS.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  17. Re:AtheOS by green+pizza · · Score: 3, Funny

    How do you pronounce that? [AtheOS]

    It's pronounced: "Syllable"

  18. Is it me or .... by theManInTheYellowHat · · Score: 3, Funny

    Or is there only 2 different menu systems now?

    There is the "Start" button which reveals the program listings and there is the CDE type dock system. Syllable seems to have the Start button. With all the different OS's there should be more than 2 menu mechanism's.

    I actually liked Program Manager.

    I guess everyone is trying to give the new users a break.

  19. Macs are not expensive by nsayer · · Score: 4, Informative

    The old saw about Macs being expensive is old and tired.

    It is more accurate to say that you cannot buy a "cheap" mac. That is, the lowest price mac you can get is more expensive than the least expensive PC you can buy. But those two machines won't wind up being even close to either other in features or TCO. This is particularly the case with laptops.

    1. Re:Macs are not expensive by pyrrhonist · · Score: 3, Informative
      Which Inspiron do you mean?

      I have an 8200 with the UltraSharp screen.

      There was no Mac with equivalent features, and the one that was closest was $1000 more.

      I still didn't get Gigabit Ethernet

      Which is absolutely useless. What other devices am I going to be talking to that use GigE? Most hotels don't have gigabit ethernet. My house and most public internet access points use WiFi. Work doesn't have gigabit. The fastest speed I can download from my house is 3 Mb/s, and my other computers all have 10/100. Gigabit is a useless added expense.

      a Pro version of the OS

      I have a Pro version of the OS.

      or Firewire 800

      Yeah, that'll be good for the iPod. Oh, wait, the iPod doesn't have it.

      the external video port isn't digital.

      I don't need digital out for presentations. Most TVs and projectors I encounter don't support it. It's another completely useless feature.

      And it weighs a pound more (6.9 vs. the 5.7 lb powerbook).

      Okay, yeah, it would be nice if the Dell weighed less. But it's not worth $1000 dollars for that.

      Most of what I do is programming, and for that I like to have as much screen real estate as possible. My old laptop had 1400x1050 screen resolution, and I got used to using that. Apple doesn't even offer the "standard" screen resolution of 1280x1024 in a laptop. These other features that you mention just don't do it for me.

      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
  20. Re:Why oh God Why by Gurney5 · · Score: 5, Informative

    (I'm a member of the Syllable community.)

    We are not trying to bridge any supposed gap between Linux and Windows. We're dissatisfied with Windows as a desktop OS, and we're dissatisfied with Linux as a desktop OS. So, we're working on a completely different OS that meets our needs.

    We do not expect every modern home user to use Syllable.

    I honestly find the final argument in thebdj's post humorous. It reminds me of the "Everything that can be invented, has been invented" argument, and reminds me of the arguments against Linux five to ten years ago, which suggested that Windows and MacOS were "enough."

    thedbj's reading an awful lot into the Syllable project that simply isn't there. When I look at the tremendous amount of work being put into Syllable for such little reward, the idea that we're making Syllable simply to be cool is ludicrous.

  21. Syllable development? by aclarke · · Score: 3, Funny
    I'm glad to hear that Syllable development is finally progressing. Now I can use the syllables "fug", "nrut", "lurg" and "gip".

    You might say that this is very "lurgciting" news...

    --

    www.clarke.ca
  22. Re:not quite there guys. by Brandybuck · · Score: 3, Funny

    User-interface: single toolkit and desktop, sane design. Consistency is the result.

    At least until someone ports GNOME or KDE over. Please, pass a law banning freedom or we will never get a free desktop suitable for the masses!

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!