Slashdot Mirror
Syllable - The Little OS with a Big Future?
Vanders writes "Tired of endless Windows security problems? Intrigued by Linux's power but discouraged by its complexity? Tempted by Mac OS but not thrilled with the hardware cost? In an OSNews article, Michael Saunders takes a look at Syllable, the OS that picked up where AtheOS left off over two years ago. Michael takes you through Syllable and shows you what we have been doing these past few years."
If it can solve the problems Linux has on the desktop, namely incredibly poor software installation and ugly graphics, it might have a chance. It seems promising, but then again, so does Linux. I've been wishing Linux on to the desktop, but it just doesn't seem like it's happening.
Question: Is there any way to use Linux device drivers with this os? How hard would it be to "port" Syllable to Linux?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Is their web site powered by Syllable? And can it withstand the /.?
the OS that picked up where AtheOS left off over two years ago
Finally!
I've been severely missing an Os that excells in lack of support, lack of compatibility and an unsurpassed vapor-are factor.
I'm in...
Now *there* was a great OS. Small, lean, easy to use, ran great. I know there's an attempt at an opensource BeOS but it seems to be a long way away. I looked at Syllables website, atleast they have a livecd, I might as well try it, got nothing to lose. Until then i'll still keep my midnight candlelight vigil until BeOS comes back.
As to the complexity of Linux issue. It appears to me that Syllable is a Linux based system
Incorrect.
using Gnome
Incorrect.
and it looks similar to Fedora in some ways.
Probably superficial.
So I ask you, how can a Linux system be less complex than Linux?
Because it's not Linux. They swiped the icons. IIRC, AtheOS was written in 100% assembler as a pet project by the guy who wrote it. He (and others) later built some POSIX, KDE and GTK API mappings so that Linux and Unix software could be compiled and used.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Can you run AtheOS and still believe in God?
... sorta sniffed at it when my aging BeBox arrived at its final unsupported destination, but ... I don't remember if this project had architecture-neutrality as a spec ... and i retired the BeBox and bought a powerbook instead, abandoning x86 forever (or at least as much as possible)...
still, a powerpc port of another new and interesting OS would be an interesting endeavour. anyone care to answer the question as to how portable syllable is?
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
AtheOS was written in 100% assembler as a pet project by the guy who wrote it
The kernel is written in C. The high level stuff is written in C and C++.
He (and others) later built some POSIX, KDE and GTK API mappings..
The AtheOS kernel has always been about 95% POSIX compliant. There are no KDE or GTK API's for Syllable; it has always had it's own C++ API and appserver.
Syllable : It's an Operating System
IIRC, AtheOS was written in 100% assembler
not exactly. Generally low level stuff is C, everything else is C++. The API to write gui apps is C++.
He (and others) later built some POSIX, KDE and GTK API mappings so that Linux and Unix software could be compiled and used.
nope, not at all. Syllable has always been a posix OS, so posix apps generally compile effortlessly. But part of the raison d'etre of syllable is to create a more BeOS, Mac, or Amiga inspired OS. This means no X, GTK or QT (a subset of QT was ported to port KHTML, similar to what Apple did for Safari), and these toolkits will never be ported to Syllable. At least not by the core devs.
Schrodinger's cat is either dead or really pissed off...
"Tempted by Mac OS but not thrilled with the hardware cost?"
Ugh, having the start menu at the top isn't really making it like MacOS, and it sure seems that's the only similar thing. It doesn't even integrate the application menus into the title bar. Another great part of MacOS is the fact it "just works." I doubt you get this with Syllable. Furthermore, the MacOS UI is a lot nicer.
Moreover, I doubt this OS will really take off with a "big future." BeOS/QNX/etc were a lot spiffier, and they didn't survive. I wish them the best of luck, however.
Hold on a sec here. I'm pretty sure this was one of those pieces of history I'm not screwing up on.
I think you're mis-remebering slightly.
As I remember it, there was no attempt by the AtheOS author to be POSIX compliant except for the purpose of running BASH and a few other utilities.
No, Syllable and AtheOS really are about 95% POSIX compliant. We even use Glibc. The only ommisions are edge cases which are not technically POSIX anyway, such as missing mmap(). Bash is the default (Pretty much only!) shell, the utilities are GNU Coreutils, Diffutils, Textutils, Sed, Grep etc. just as you would find on most Linux machines.
I remember that KHTML and other KDE software was ported to AtheOS
KHTML was ported, but nothing else. Kurt wrote Qt wrappers around the native AtheOS classes, so there is very little Qt involved in the port. It's almost exactly how Apple ported Qt to OS X. There is no X support for AtheOS or Syllable.
What's lacking: Some features and subsystems not yet coded; limited range of apps; occasional stability issues.
Wow, just glad it's missing the little things that don't matter.
Linux O Muerte!
I don't know if Syllable will be the ones to take advantage of it (or if anyone will), but I think that in the next few years there is a real opportunity for somebody to take over the PC operating system market. Microsoft has delayed Longhorn numerous times already, and it looks like the difference between WinXP and Longhorn will be as vast as the difference between Windows 3.11 and Win95. That added to the fact that many Windows users are already unsatisfied enough to be looking for something new.
Apple will not be the ones to usurp windows because their hardware is too expensive for most people. Linux or other BSDs won't be the ones to take over because they're too difficult for most people. Even the most user-friendly distros like Mandrake and Redhat, despite their continuing progress and great efforts, have some problems. Most fundamentally I think it's the fact that despite all of the friendly aspects, it's very difficult for a user of Linux to avoid ever using the command-line. I think the way OSX uses the command-line is much more appropriate -- if you want to use it and learn it, it's there and you can use all of its power, but realistically, no normal user will ever be FORCED to learn how to use it.
If Syllable manages to get some momentum, they might be able to do it. We'll see.
Apple could become a contender if they decided to take the leap towards porting OSX to the PC, or working to make their hardware cheaper. Neither of those look very likely though, but they're certainly possibilities, and things I would love to see happen.
I would have also liked to see information about what would be involved in developing applications for Syllable. Is there a well-documented API? What about support for multiple languages?
All the information you'd like is on the website but we're Slashdoted, so I can only ask you to try again in a few days time. The API is documented, there are some tutorials, example code is abundent and we're happy to answer questions in the forums and mailing lists. Multi-lingual support is currently in the CVS version which can be compiled if you want it, and will be officially available in the next release of Syllable.
Syllable : It's an Operating System
It's not, at least not where it matters to the user! Consider:
/etc/conf.modules. In Syllable, just copy the driver into a directory.
Driver installation. In Linux, mess around compiling your kernel and/or modprobing modules and editing
User-interface: single toolkit and desktop, sane design. Consistency is the result.
Plus, there are other things. The initscripts are cleaner and shorter (one of the factors involved in the sub-10-second boots), the GUI subsystem is like X and a toolkit all-in-one, and others.
So install it, and you'll see that it's not as complex at all!
The KHTML port is a total dead end; maintaining it is a nightmare. I hope we'll have a port of Gecko within the next 12 months, which will hopefully be much easier to maintain as it is designed to be portable. Personally I think we need stronger debugging tools before anyone tackles a large codebase like Gecko, so I intend to work on the development toolchain some more and then maybe tackle Gecko.
Syllable : It's an Operating System
How is 64 Megs low memory usage?
Seems like a pretty good chunk of memory if you ask me for a less than complete OS.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
How do you pronounce that? [AtheOS]
It's pronounced: "Syllable"
Or is there only 2 different menu systems now?
There is the "Start" button which reveals the program listings and there is the CDE type dock system. Syllable seems to have the Start button. With all the different OS's there should be more than 2 menu mechanism's.
I actually liked Program Manager.
I guess everyone is trying to give the new users a break.
The old saw about Macs being expensive is old and tired.
It is more accurate to say that you cannot buy a "cheap" mac. That is, the lowest price mac you can get is more expensive than the least expensive PC you can buy. But those two machines won't wind up being even close to either other in features or TCO. This is particularly the case with laptops.
There are a bug report and comments at sourceforge, looks like there is something unsound about handling the cookies.
Maybe the new color scheme threw a bad spell...
605413? Yes, it's a prime.
I'm reminded of the good old days, when installing a driver was as simple as clicking on the driver's icon and dragging it into the System:Extensions folder. Alas, most modern operating systems aren't anywhere near as usable as MacOS was in 1989...
Nice to see some are at least starting to get a clue...
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
Until then i'll still keep my midnight candlelight vigil until BeOS comes back.
Like totally you totally need like an Amiga, man! Dude, holy crap, the Amiga with OS/2 Warp was like the greatest system ever and you could install it on like a NeXT and it was like so cool because like... uhhh... ummm... JUST TRUST ME, IT WAS THE GREATEST OS EVER!
Except of course for JoS. And Freedows, which begat the equally successful Alliance OS.
And don't forget Haiku OS, which nobody knows what it is or why anybody'd bother working on it -- it's another one of those JoS-style "announcement engineering" projects, where they've got 200 pages of elaborate plans and a really beautiful, artistic, state-of-the-art website... But no working code and nobody trying all that hard to write any. They're too busy appointing committees and making plans to make plans to debate their plan-making proceedures.
Rule of thumb: If a project has a website already but hasn't yet released a working alpha or prototype, it's unlikely ever to release anything at all. If the website is plain-vanilla HTML 1.0, maybe there's a slim chance, but if it's got CSS? Forget it. Just a bunch of losers playing with themselves.
There aren't many things too big for two or three programmers to whack together a halfassed prototype/proof-of-concept (or at least proof that you HAVE a concept) and get it running. You don't need a website for that, and you sure as fuck don't need graphic designers and a logo. I seem to recall hearing about some Finnish guy banging out a fubar'd first crack at a Unix-ish OS kernel all by himself some years ago... And THEN he asked for volunteers.
Be Inc. gets credit for at least releasing a usable operating system (I was quite fond of it, though I didn't use it much because no useful software ran on it), but they get a big fat Cock-in-the-Face Award(TM) for providing a "solution in search of a problem" and therefore failing utterly in the marketplace.
Why do we keep trying to bridge this "gap" between Linux and windows? I mean really there is a gap there for a reason. I do not expect nor do I want every modern home user using the operating system that since its inception has been FGBG (For Geeks By Geeks).
There are other more geek-ish OSes, yes. However, linux is the mainstream one with the most support. There are a few reasons that the gap should stay the huge gap that it currently is.
If it became a mainstream operating system, maybe not even necessarily on the scale of M$ Windows, it would become even more prone to virus, trojan horse and other horrible attacks. I am not saying these things do not happen now. On the contrary there are vulnerabilities exploited all the time. However, most geeks know how to fix the holes pretty quickly and there are not enough linux machines to make a hardcore evil-doer write a virus for it. After all when was the last time you heard a nifty name on the news for a linux worm. I can name at least two dozen Windows worms/viruses.
For home users tech support is already enough of a pain in the butt. Dell and HP/Compaq must get millions of inane questions a day, and most those chimps they have working for them read from a book and probably could barely turn a PC on themselves. So I can see a conversation between tech support involving the install of a program. My mom has a hard enough time double clicking setup.exe.
Backwards compatibility is also a hold-back. I mean who wants to give up their present machine and lose with it all the other games and software which they came to love oh so much. WINE is good for a lot but there are still a lot of games that cannot keep up when in WINE. While there may be a lot of replacement programs available for users that isn't what they always want.
In the end Linux needs to just stay put. It isn't about catching the big evil M$. The fact is they will somehow manage to self-destruct themselves on their own. Leave Linux and any other "geek" OS alone. They should stay with the geeks and some of those lucky server admins.
I think Syllabus will prove to be another "fad", a fake "linux" of sorts that never quite made it. To be honest the OSes we have now are enough. If you want simple to use with a pretty powerful interface hidden away then use OS X. If you want a fairly stable, even if buggy, OS with lots of support and tons of software and ease of use (for the most part) use Windows XP (maybe 2K) all others are CRAP. If you want true power and don't mind the occasional frustration and want to seem cool around your geek buddies then use Linux, [fill in the blank]BSD, or maybe even that proprietary OS Solaris.
---
"The same thing we do every night Pinky; Try to take over the world!"
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
You might say that this is very "lurgciting" news...
www.clarke.ca
I suppose you haven't seen the eMac or iBook, then. Yes, you can get a Dell for less, but are the bottom Dells as good? Will they hold up as well or last as long? Are the batteries as good?
This sounds like the Amiga DEVS: directory, where each driver was a *.device file, IIRC.
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
so far my experience with syllable has left a bitter taste in my mouth, not only did it lock up on startup, but left my machine hanging. (power button didnt even respond!)
of course maybe that was only a problem with the machine's hardware, or compatibility with it.. but still, even linux doesnt do that, nor does beOS or bsd or anything else I've tried..
I'd give it several more releases before trying it.
User-interface: single toolkit and desktop, sane design. Consistency is the result.
At least until someone ports GNOME or KDE over. Please, pass a law banning freedom or we will never get a free desktop suitable for the masses!
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!