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Technology Review Profiles Miguel de Icaza
prostoalex writes "Technology Review has a feature story on Miguel de Icaza, currently Novell VP of Product Technology, but more known as the leader of Gnome and Mono projects. Miguel is the man Don Box would like to see joining Microsoft for his "amazing amount of raw energy". If you read through the Technology review article, you will see that de Icaza was actually turned down by Microsoft at some point."
I met Miguel, like, back in '98 at a conference in Mexico. Yes, Linux existed there back then!
We chatted and I quickly found he was more than just a Rob Malda or Rusty Foster, guys who talk the talk and get all the fame but can't back it up when it comes to lines of code per hour counts.
Miguel simply AMAZED me with his knowledge and skill. He ever opened up a digital projector and messed with the PROM or jumpers or something and fixed it within 20 minutes, just in time for his talk.
de Icaza is nothing short of amazing. I DO however question his judgement to kind of jump into the MS camp with MONO/.NET emulation, but I know that since he's smarter than me he must be doing the right thing.
If you liked my post,
i seem to recall a Slashdot sig or two quoting Miguel saying that he was a MS clipy fan.
/.'er would burn at the stake a man who had said so, but think for a sec before torching up those flames, kids.
...your world is *not* ruined by this man: change your config....ye that bitch and moan how easy it is to twiddle this and that in /etc/here or /etc/there. Yeah, i'm good with that, but gramps is not - what can he use? Gnome. Or Kde.
Many a
Clippy might have sucked and annoyed many of you, but think about those moments when grammy was looking about for a movie of the grandkids.
i know, i know...stretch, strech, but ponder for me your grand parents for a sec: what do they read/write/view email with? Yeah, l33tz as you may be, gramps needs some some help from time to time: Gnome does that. Period.
Gripe and bitch on the 'spatial this' and 'spatial that'
Save the zealotous mass, either is good, but Clippy has helped many a folk get "email"...your ub3r ass needs to realize these are not the folks that care for or about your sendmail/qmail/rfc gripes....they want the pics of the little grandkids.
Rip on Miguel as you like, but recall, this is a man that wants the linux desktop to prosper, regardless of what fanboy, ub3r wannabies latch on.
Let the quote go....listen to the spirit...you do want me to listen to the open source spirit don't you?
I'd like to thank Miguel for his contributions. I'm a gnome user, and it is quite nice. What I don't get though, is why he seems absolutely fascinated with the boys in redmond. He reimplements Outlook, and now he's reimplimenting their reimplimentation of Java. Why not get behind an OSS implementation of the original ala kaffe or gcj, or push the OSS own Parrot?
[...] de Icaza took the interview as an opportunity to lecture managers on why Microsoft should abandon its multibillion-dollar business model and embrace open-source programming. Not surprisingly, de Icaza wasn't hired.
The blurb here makes it sound like he was begging on his knees for them to take him on. Not quite what the article describes. He's not the least "confused on what side he's on".
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
The fork only just happened recently. Miguel did try to pump mono into Gnome and I'm sure he will release a ruined Microsofty version of Gnome at some point.
The man is founder of Gnome and his claim to fame was dissing KDE for not having the right ideals. Now its time to diss Miguel for doing something which is even more threatening than using the QT license.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
This is why I believe the leadership should be completely decentralized and we should never idolize people like him.
This coming from a guy who's Name is Adolph Hitler (713286).
Yea. I know.
These are baseless accusations. I would suggest you keep the conspiracy theories to yourself unless you have some evidence to back them up.
Maybe you are actually someone hired by Microsoft to spread FUD on slashdot!
Miguel's a leader of the community who deserves our respect. I think it's become clear over the years he could have made as much money as he wanted but chose to do what he felt was right.
A lot of people denigrate Miguel as being a "Microsoft fan."
That's not fair. What he is, is a realist. The fact is that as long as Microsoft has a vast majority of the desktops out there, any competing system has a choice: between creating their own 31337 world where only the initiated may play, or instead creating systems that work and play well with others. By paying close attention to what system and paradigms users are used to - that is to say, that Microsoft ships - Miguel helps furhter the rapid adoption of Linux as a viable Windows alternative.
Why he is imporant is not just that he realizes this, but that he does something about it. Real hackers write code for their beliefs, as he does.
Dude, you'd make a horrible Nazi. It's Adolf Hitler.
Ian
Yeah, but a common complaint of CIL-based languages is that they all look suspiciously like C# in the end. Since I've never written Smalltalk et al. for .NET, I don't know, but it's certainly the case that the only widespread languages in use for the CLR are C# and VB.NET, so the multiple languages thing seems like a bit of a lame duck.
However, Python, which bears little resemblance to Java, runs very nicely on the JVM thanks to the Jython project, and can import and use Java's class libraries and so forth. So maybe the JVM (and Java byte code) is more generalised than you thought.
Why do so many people around here seem to think that Java is more free than .Net? This is far from true.
Java is just as patent-encumbered as .Net is. Hell, Sun sued *Microsoft* over some Java patents shortly ago. Who is to say they wouldn't do the same to gcj if it served their interests?
In fact, it is argueable that it is moreso since a single, commercial body controls it (Sub) whereas with .Net at least you have a standards body (ECMA) who has ratified the spec, which means that an independant implementation of the spec API (Mono) is less likely to have problems than an independant implimentation of the Java API.
The reality is that everyone is against .Net soley because it is made by MS. Yay for groupthink!.
I was at the Burton Group conference where Miguel de Icaza, John Montgomery, and Graham Hamilton participated in a forum discussion.
I mentioned how prolific scripting languages had become, that some very large and revenue-generating systems were built on scripting languages. I asked given the industry-wide move toward virtual machines, what each of their products would be doing to facilitate scripting languages targeting the VMs.
John Montgomery admitted that the CLR did not really handle dynamically typed scripting langauges very well. Graham Hamilton did not say the same thing about the JVM, but did mention they were working on getting the JVM into better shape to be able to allow dynamically typed scripting languages more ease of integration.
Python, which also bears little resemblance to C#, also appears to run very nicely on .NET and pretty well on Mono. http://ironpython.com/. While they aren't all open source, there are also many other languages with compilers directed at the CLI: http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/lang/.
.NET because Java can be run on Mono via the IKVM project http://www.ikvm.net/.
Finally, there seems to be no reason to suppose that Java is somehow more flexible than
I'm not advocating the use of Mono (and I'm certainly not advocating the use of Windows), but arguments against it should be technically correct.
Kluge
Miguel is working on one of the most important and exciting projects in the software world. Regardless of what Novell does or doesn't do with Mono, it will still be open source, and it will forever alter the competetive landscape (by increasing competition for Microsoft).
Amazing magic tricks
Some languages map very nicely to the JVM or the CLR
/clr flag which is a very convenient
(the same developer that did Jython now has
a very fast implementation called IronPython that
was unveiled and demostrated at OSCON).
The problem is with languages that require pointers:
Fortran, C, C++ and some extra support is convenient
for some functional languages that the CLR
provides.
I mean, nothing really ground breaking, but the
CLR had a chance to learn from Java's limitations.
The new MS C++ compiler generates pure CIL executables
when using the
way of integrating existing C/C++ codebases with
managed codebases.
Miguel.
I think it's worth pointing out that Novell are unlikely to have taken such a keen interest and involvement (and ownership) in Mono without a reasonable degree of risk and legal analysis. That doesn't mean we are 'safe' but it should put some perspective on the level of fear that some people seem to have.
Microsoft are certainly a competitor but the open source community will only be doing itself a disservice if fear of what Microsoft might do is an overriding principle. If you want to avoid treading on Microsofts toes you may as well just give up now.
If they want to control something they should be made to fight for it.
For me it is difficult to put my finger on exactly what has hampered Java's uptake in the general open source community. Java certainly has an open source community (as is evident from Apache projects etc) but it seems almost completely disconnected from the general open source community.
In part it must come down to Sun. It seems insane to me that sheer force of enthusiasm seems to striding towards making Mono an attractive and viable platform for GNOME/GTK development while years of Sun involvement in that project has done no such thing for Java. Quite a lot of posts say "Why not Java?" as an alternative for GNOME. I wonder the same thing, there just doesn't seem to be any energy for it. It's ludicrous to think that some sort of epiphany is going to suddenly divert Miguel or Novells energy towards Java. That energy will have to come from somewhere else. Simply standing there and saying "Look, Java!" isn't going to get anyone anywhere.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Mod me a flamebait, but I feel Mono is just driving users to windows where the best development tools are.
Development tools are one of microsoft stronger suits. Its going to be hard to get development tools that good for linux, so in the end more users will end up developing on windows.
I looked at mono for development, and ended up at java/eclipse. Eclipse is one of the most impresive open source projects since apache. I wish sun was more open and every linux distro would come with java preinstalled.
You can't win with either java or mono(c#).. Maybe its time ffor python/perl/php/ruby.....
Microsoft software architect Don Box even wrote a song imploring de Icaza to join the company and sang it to him in front of a large audience at a party late last year.
Maybe they should have just used a stunt by Steve Ballmer instead?
Steve (onstage): "Miguel, you're a great developer... DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!"
- sm
Hi,
.NET is the best thing since Java.
.NET. .NET is Microsoft's answer to the screwjob that is DCOM. You will need .NET/Mono installed on client workstations to talk to a Microsoft Server based application. Mono can be blown up at any time simply with a patch. Is this confusing any luminaries out there? Is this too deep?
I was just perusing the comments, and it seems a good bit of you folks are convinced that Icaza is a visionary and Microsoft
And the people that aren't "getting it" seem to be these people. If you really want to "get it" see the Samba project. That cat and mouse game has been going on for the better part of a decade.
Mono is a bridge to
You forget that anything proprietary is limited to the goodwill of the owner. Icaza reminds me of the early days of Ransom Love's Caldera project. He admired Microsoft and attempted to emulate them. End game- Microsoft 1 Caldera 0. Mr. Love has had a change of tune since the inevitable happened.
In any case, if Icaza went to work for Microsoft, I would not at all be suprised. And it would not affect my plans for the Linux server and client in the slightest.
OMG.
i'm picking on you because you exemplify superbly what's true of most of this thread, and half the posts on this story: intense fanboyism. you deduced that he was a great coder from a short conversation? what'd he do, spend the whole time reciting the Mono headers? great coder, lousy conversationalist. you can't figure out how good a coder someone is without looking at their code ! and we'll ignore for the moment this flatly stupid idea that LoC/hr is some measure of a coder's skill. all the "he's nothing short of amazing" stuff just doesn't "take" without some rationale behind it, all of which is totally missing from most of the fanboy posts. "he's smarter than me, he must know what he's doing" is triangulated somewhere between funny, stupid, and dangerous. reserve judgment for people with a proven track record, but even Ken and Dennis make mistakes.
and, speaking of track records, anyone know what the current score is for people or organizations that try to "play nice" with our "friends" in Redmond? (hint: it ain't pretty)
i'm amazed by both the number of "he's the only one that gets it" (c'mon, the only one? there's an awful lot of bright people out there) and "he just doesn't get it" posts. people on both sides seem really animated. i've never met the guy, but most people i know who have ended up kinda violently opposed to him. what is it about the guy that inspires such strong emotion? is it just the fact that he's working on topics that touch on sensitive areas for many FS/OS folks (MS, and playing nice with them)? or is de Icaza the new RMS (people seem to have mostly mellowed about him)?
i've got mod points, and i was gonna try to even this thread out some, but i couldn't figure out where the -1 Fanboy rating was.
i speak for myself and those who like what i say.
Insightful, my ass.
This clown has been posting the same drivel on slashdot since time immemorial and I don't believe a word he says.
Pragmatism as an ideology is not particularly pragmatic in the long term. Keep it in mind when you dismiss Free Software
If anyone belives mono is evil, downfall of gnome etc etc i recommend you read the article. Listen to what Miguel says.
.net? According to MS that is a yes. What if all that windows code can run on linux to, without problems, seemlessly. Mono is the key. A compablilty layer, just like wine expect better, to allow us to run the next generation of windows applications. Its a drive at the future market itself. Trying to get a head start on microsoft with a strong development tool kit. If we wait 5 years before mono is built then we will be chassing there tails yet again.
We are talking long term. In 10 years will 90% of windows software be written in
"I know that since he's smarter than me he must be doing the right thing"
One of the single most retarded things I've ever heard.
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
...from where I'm standing, Miguel is not an innovator, he just says "wow cool, wish I could have thought of that " and copies it.
Now I'm not bashing his managerial skills (he got mono done very quickly) or his coding skills, but open source needs idea people, not the "me too"'s of this world.
I am NaN
Point to me a succesfull OS project that has just "idea people"
OS in full of ideas, but lacks strong managers to give solid directions.
I don't think someone who gives the impression he'd rather be a M$ developer than a *NIX developer should be considered a "leader" in the community. I won't deny that he's done some good for the community. Yet, I don't consider MONO one of them. I think it opens the door to possible problems down the road with M$. I feel the best way to approach the war with M$ is to open standards. Not concede that M$ has created them already and conform to them if for no other reason than to avoid litigation.
You are wrong.
;-)
I have never been detained, its a shame, because
the legend is a lot more interesting than the real
story
Miguel.