Librarians to the Rescue

Go librarians! by Elpacoloco · 2004-08-14 14:10 · Score: 3, Interesting

Apparently, publishers don't like libraries. It decreases sales of their book.

However, it massively accelerates research. Clearly a good thing.

(Mod me down, this post is stupid.)

Re:Go librarians! by michaeltoe · 2004-08-14 14:21 · Score: 5, Informative

We barely used our libraries at school, we usually got our information off the web.
This wasn't because the information in the libraries was bad (actually, it had a lot of good stuff), but as high school students we were generally lazy.
Better than college though, where publishers will force people to buy whole new editions of math books just because they changed the order of the problems at the end of each chapter.
Re:Go librarians! by wfberg · 2004-08-14 14:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

Apparently, publishers don't like libraries. It decreases sales of their book.

On the other hand, it massively decreases incentives to set up efficient second hand marketplaces for books. After all, first doctrine means the publisher never gets money for "used" books getting read by their new owners anyway.
And if a library doesn't offer the latest Stephen King, romance novel or in a nutshell, a lot of people end up buying a new copy..

Having said that, they're always working their evil little ways to get libraries to pay for lending out books or having copying machines.. When you have a dead poet's estate prohibiting a poetry festival from "performing" his poems, you know the system's gone mad.

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SCO employee? Check out the bounty
Re:Go librarians! by jesterzog · 2004-08-14 14:32 · Score: 4, Insightful

However, it massively accelerates research. Clearly a good thing.

Not to mention literacy, which presumably sustains sales of books in the long term. Imagine what it'd be like if anyone who wanted to read had to pay.
Re:Go librarians! by kfg · 2004-08-14 14:44 · Score: 5, Funny

When you have a dead poet's estate prohibiting a poetry festival from "performing" his poems, you know the system's gone mad.

Indeed. Anyone who's ever been to an open mike night knows that in a sane world it would be the poet who would be prohibited from reading his own works.

KFG
Re:Go librarians! by Sparr0 · 2004-08-14 15:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

i tend to use resources on the web to write my papers. then ill go to the library to find the books the web site cites and cite them.
Re:Go librarians! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-14 15:48 · Score: 5, Insightful

Imagine what it'd be like if anyone who wanted to read had to pay.

We'd have a culture where most people get their information from visual and audio media like television and radio and ignore in-depth analysis found in newspapers and magazines.

Oh.
Re:Go librarians! by Photar · 2004-08-14 17:05 · Score: 2, Funny

We obviously need this

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He who knows not and knows he knows not is a wise man. He who knows not and knows not he knows not is a fool.
Re:Go librarians! by Discoflamingo13 · 2004-08-14 19:34 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think his point was that regardless of how biased or one-sided it was, print media goes farther in examining an issue because of the nature of the medium. It's easier to understand more about a single event (and key supporting events) in ten pages than in 10 minutes of TV coverage.
Re:Go librarians! by ultranova · 2004-08-14 21:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

However, it massively accelerates research. Clearly a good thing.

Not for publishers. Research lowers the cost of entering the publishing business, and thus increases competition. The Internet even allows publishing for free - and I don't mean book pirates, but people who upload their own texts for everyone to enjoy. I've read several book-length quality pieces of writing on the Net, and this had certainly decreased my need to buy paper books.

Research threatens established power bases - or, more to the point, the fruits of research in the hands of the general public threaten established power bases - and thus is a bad thing, as far as those in power are concerned. Do you really think that the Internet would had been allowed to happen if the politicians and big business had known beforehand what it would become ?

Freedom is the natural enemy of Power. People freely exchanging information and making their own decisions is the worst nightmare of a politician. People producing and trading with each other is the worst nightmare of a corporate overlord. And everyone having a cheap access to publishing is the worst nightmare of a publisher.

All of which means that we will propably go back to pre-emptive censoring, of needing a prior permission to publish anything, before long. Propably as soon as we get mandatory DRM on our computers. That's the real reason for it...

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Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Re:Go librarians! by phiwum · 2004-08-15 01:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

i tend to use resources on the web to write my papers. then ill go to the library to find the books the web site cites and cite them.

Presumably after first reading the relevant text to be sure that it agrees with the paper you've already written.

Of course, even if you do check the original sources like you ought, failing to cite the web site where you originally obtained the information might be a form of plagiarism. Especially if the information is presented in your paper more like the web site presented it and less like the original.

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Phiwum's law: anyone that names an obvious law after himself and then puts it in his own sig is just pathetic.

well by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-14 14:11 · Score: 3, Interesting

don't get too excited slashbots... balance in this case is 80% closer to the RIAA and MPAA side than what you think balanced is. Use your computer for something useful, like reading up on copyright laws, and why we have copyrights.

Re:well by tomhudson · 2004-08-14 14:18 · Score: 4, Insightful

For once I agree with an AC.
And not just because to "balance things out", you'd have to push a line that would make all copyright questionable.
The proper way to "balance" this is to not allow the **AA access to the schools. This isn't education, it's propaganda. Let them buy time in the media like every other business.
Re:well by invalid_address · 2004-08-14 14:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

i agree to the propaganda nature of this:

BSA marketing exec 1: hey, what should we do this year to increase legal software sales?

BSA marketing exec 2: i know! let's infiltrate the schools with some 'educational material' about copyrights, and how they should be reverently followed. 90 some odd years is not enough.

BSA marketing exec 1: sound great, but how are we going to do that?

BSA marketing exec 2: we'll umm, make a cartoon character and have the kids name it, yeah! it will be great

BSA marketing exec 1: what else?

BSA marketing exec 2: we'll have legal work with the teacher's unions to force compliance to instruct the children with our coursework. if that doesn't work, we'll bury them in subpoenas and fines!

in walks a lone librarian.

librarian: your tactics are nefarious and strongarm. we will not allow this without proper perspective.

BSA marketing exec 1: who let this person in here?! security!!!!

there will come a day when this will all be trivial. either that or...

our children will grow up with no capability for creative thought, as that will violate some copyright somewhere somehow, and we know what that leads to.
Re:well by kfg · 2004-08-14 14:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

It is possible to be both a strong supporter of the philosophy of copyright and yet oppose specific copyright law.

Not to mention private interests being allowed to making their case as fact in the public schools without so much as a representative of a counterpoint.

I certainly hope school librarians take up the gauntlet, but my experience suggests that to do so might well endanger their jobs.

KFG
Re:well by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-14 15:03 · Score: 3, Informative

Let them buy time in the media like every other business.

Uhm, they *are* the media.

Ever noticed how "unfair and unbalanced" all the stories about copyright are? They kinda miss the whole "there's a large section of the population that think the laws go too far " kinda angle.

Look at the latest stories about DVD Jon finding the streaming key for the AirPort Express.. "HACKER CRACKS AIRTUNES ENCRYPTION" .. uh yeah. I guess it's a more interesting headline than "SMART GUY FINDS HIDDEN NUMBER".

I don't have a lot of hope for the world to fix itself in the short term when it comes to this, maybe 2-3 generations from now when people finally realize that just because it happens in a computer, doesn't mean it's magical and special and worthy of 50 extra obscene laws.

By then I'll be long gone.. but of course my copyrights will be in full effect.
Re:well by tomhudson · 2004-08-14 15:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

either that or...
our children will grow up with no capability for creative thought, as that will violate some copyright somewhere somehow, and we know what that leads to.

I seem to recall a recent sci-fi short story along those lines in one of the monthy anthologies. Stuff taught from textbooks with all sorts of copyright notices, and you could only be taught material that was he clear property of some copyright holder somewhere, for fear of "submarine lawsuits" for copyright infringement.
Let's hope this is one case where sci-fi is more to provoke thought than to predict the future.
Re:well by Melantha_Bacchae · 2004-08-14 15:47 · Score: 3, Insightful

I doubt most slashdot readers are ignorant of copyright laws, the founders distrust of the concept, and the decision to only include copyright in the US Constitution as a carrot to promote innovation.

I imagine most slashdot readers are aware of the abuses of copyright law: the endless extensions, the DMCA, stifling of free speech and fair use, impoverishment of the public domain, the lack of rights for the creators of content (publishers using contracts and work-for-hire to take the copyrights for themselves). All of which are extensively documented on Slashdot.

I imagine most slashdot readers are well aware of campaigns by copyright holders (the publishers) to use them to extort money from mostly innocent people (as few cases go to court and so the allegations of infringement are unproven).

While it has been a while, I imagine at least some slashdot readers remember Microsoft's terroristic marketing campaigns to scare customers into buying too many licenses just to be "safe" from audits.

If you don't, AC, maybe you should use your computer for something "useful". ;)

It is good that libraries are going to be educating youngsters in Fair Use. After all, libraries are the sacred temples of Fair Use.

As for the media sharks, remember the Yahlen? Quit being mean, or your yachts are belong to Mothra!
(To be used in the Queen of Monster's thirty-eight year old War on Mean Terrorists.)
"Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster", 1966
Re:well by swillden · 2004-08-14 16:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

It is possible to be both a strong supporter of the philosophy of copyright and yet oppose specific copyright law.
Given the current copyright law, it's pretty much impossible to be a strong supporter of the US founders' philosophy of copyright and *not* oppose specific copyright law.
The only way you can really support the current copyright system is if you buy into the content producers' notion that copyright is some sort of perpetual, natural and even inalienable right to collect cash for every use, rather than the carefully balanced social contract originally intended.

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Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Re:well by Flexagon · 2004-08-14 17:43 · Score: 4, Insightful
This isn't education, it's propaganda.

My kids are past elementary school, but we've had to deal with at least two other equally bogus programs that were nevertheless strongly supported by some of the administrators:
- McDonald's providing arithmetic practice sheets driven by its products and pricing for use as in-class exercises. This would have been fine as a hand-out at its restaurants. The justification was that teachers can always use free teaching materials, whatever the source or motivation.
- The American Heart Association running a fund raising drive disguised as PE and charity work for the organization's direct benefit, but during school hours. This one would have been fine if volunteers had been requested, and if it were held outside of the state-mandated teaching hours.
Much of this nonsense didn't stop, despite numerous complaints from parents, until Consumer Reports wrote up the practice.

The only role that these sorts of things have in the classroom is in a high school level civics style class that discusses why they should not be used in the classroom.
Re:well by Alsee · 2004-08-14 18:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

Wow, a strawman attack and you didn't even need to waste time setting up a strawman argument to attack! What a time saver!

balance in this case is 80% closer to the RIAA and MPAA side than what you think balanced is

Are you talking about balance as in giving a fair and honest explanation of existing copyright law, or balanced as in what balanced law should be? Not that it matters because the RIAA/MPAA/BSA fail on both accounts. Their "educational program" is pure propaganda to push an agenda. They have no interest in giving an accurate and balanced picture of copyright law. They ignore or misrepresent any aspect of copyright law which does not support their agenda, and they simplify and overgeneralize any portion of copyright law which does support their agenda.

Oh yes, those eeeevil librarians are dong this to spread disinformation and lies to undercut the MPAA/RIAA/BSA's fair and balanced message. It's all part of the eeeevil librarians' plot to brainwash our children and conquer the world! Muahahahaha!

As for what balance law should be, well things would be a lot closer to balanced if we simply repealed a couple of rotten laws the copyright lobby has bought in the last few years. The DMCA, NET, Sony Bono, AHRA, and one or two others. If we were to include state laws I think there were a few statyes stupid enough to pass Super-DMCA bills, and two that bought into the UCITA.

But of cource that makes me some some evil anti-copyright nutjob because I want good old traditional copyright. A-yup. I'm an evil anachist for wanting the perfectly good laws we used to have.

And actually there's a rather unlikely item I'd like to add to the list of bad copyright law, though I have to stretch waaaaay back to 1976. And what item would that be? TITLE 17 CHAPTER 1 Sec. 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use.

Yes, that's right, I want the Fair Use clause stripped out of US law.

Why? Because it's redundant and it has led to widespread missunderstanding of fair use. You could strike that clause from the law and fair use would not change one wit! If you check the cogressional record when it was first passed they stated it was intended to reflect existing fair use, and that it was not intended to expand, restrict, or alter existing fair use in any way whatsoever!

Since Section 107 of the law describes fair use, many people have the mistaken impression that that law somehow grants, defines, and restricts fair use. They have the mistaken impression that fair use can be altered/restricted/eliminated simply by rewriting that law. That is incorrect. Fair use existed before that law existed, therefore it cannot be that law which created fair use.

You you actually read that clause carefully, it does not place any limitations on fair use at all! In fact what it says is that fair use is whatever the courts say it is. It merely lists examples of fair use, and gives a minimum list of factors to consider in determining fair use.

If you read the history of copyright law, fair use was established by the courts on constitutional grounds from the very beginning. It was repeatedly found that copyright law would be unconstitutional if it actually attempted to impose the sweeping restrictions it claims to impose. Rather than striking down copyright law as invalid, the court bent over backwards to assume that copyright law implicitly never even attempts to apply in cases of fair use. That copyright willingly flees in the face of fair use.

It is not copyright law which grants and defines and restricts fair use. It is fair use which rescues copyright law from being struck down as unconstitutional.

Where fair use treads copyright is entirely swept away.

The fact that fair use was written into law in 1976 in section 107 has led many people to false beliefes about fair use. Rather than acknowledging and protecting fair use rights as intended, section 1

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Re:well by Idarubicin · 2004-08-15 04:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

Why? Because it's redundant and it has led to widespread missunderstanding of fair use. You could strike that clause from the law and fair use would not change one wit! If you check the cogressional record when it was first passed they stated it was intended to reflect existing fair use, and that it was not intended to expand, restrict, or alter existing fair use in any way whatsoever!
Since Section 107 of the law describes fair use, many people have the mistaken impression that that law somehow grants, defines, and restricts fair use. They have the mistaken impression that fair use can be altered/restricted/eliminated simply by rewriting that law. That is incorrect. Fair use existed before that law existed, therefore it cannot be that law which created fair use.

Actually, the impression that fair use can be restricted, expanded, or altered by changing Section 107 is entirely correct.
Despite some recent bad law (*cough* DMCA *cough*), it is generally taken to be true that the concept of 'fair use' is a necessary and constitutionally implicit part of copyright. However, until the provisions of the 1976 Copyright Act were passed, the notion of what constituted 'fair use' was left entirely up to the courts. Beyond established case law, there were no hard and fast guidelines to aid an individual or corporation in determining what constituted acceptable and fair 'fair use'.
Through Section 107, Congress created a legal framework in which fair use was defined. Its aim was to describe fair use in a way that was acceptable both to Congress and to the courts, and provide a more formal structure to what has previously been a patchwork of rulings and debates. Until 1976 there was a legislative vacuum in that area, and the courts were left to make it up as they went along. Section 107 allowed Congress to at least shape that doctrine while still working within the bounds of the Constitution. (Incidentally, in some cases it may have expanded fair use, as well.)

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~Idarubicin

language? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-14 14:14 · Score: 5, Funny

In September, the ALA will hold focus groups with teenagers to better understand...what language they use.

OMGLOLWTFBBQ?

Re:language? by John+Courtland · 2004-08-14 15:08 · Score: 2, Funny

Conan the Librarian : "Don't you know the Dewey Decimal System?!?"

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Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.

The BSA? by civman2 · 2004-08-14 14:15 · Score: 5, Funny

"Citing concerns over materials being distributed to American students by the BSA" The Boyscouts of America?! What's wrong with the Boy Scouts?

Re:The BSA? by jc42 · 2004-08-14 14:32 · Score: 4, Funny

... the BSA" The Boyscouts of America?! What's wrong with the Boy Scouts?

Probably the same thing that was wrong a few years ago with the GSA (Girl Scouts of America) - They sit around campfires singing copyrighted songs without first getting written permission from the copyright owners and paying the license fees.

Bunch of anarchic, socialistic copyright-violating pirates with no respect for the law, all of them!

--
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Re:The BSA? by rpj1288 · 2004-08-14 14:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

The business Software Association. If they're gonna go by an acronym, they need a different one. BSA ment the Boy Scouts since the early 1900s. They were there first!

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Marvin knew: "Think of a number, any number..."
Re:The BSA? by The_Unforgiven · 2004-08-14 14:41 · Score: 2, Informative

Funny thing is, I've met gay scouts when I was one (a scout, not a gay scout :P). It's like any other place: Some groups are accepting of it, and just say "eh, he's a decent guy, who cares", and other people are bothered by it.

I suspect the religious connections in scouts are why there's that offical anti-gay thing, but offical and practice are two differant things.

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http://wsulug.org
Re:The BSA? by harkabeeparolyn · 2004-08-14 14:42 · Score: 2, Funny

??? I thought BSA was Bovine Spongiform Angioplasty.
Re:The BSA? by DAldredge · 2004-08-14 15:18 · Score: 2

How does the BSA take tax dollars?
Re:The BSA? by Alsee · 2004-08-14 18:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well, almost the same thing as before. However this time with the BSA (Boy Scouts of America) - They sit around campfires singing copyrighted software without first getting written permission from the copyright owners and paying the license fees.

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.

More Lawsuits! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-14 14:24 · Score: 5, Funny

The MPAA announced today that they will begin filing lawsuits against two current fifth-grade students who were former winners of the MPAA's own student essay contest. Winners were provided with MPAA T-shirts as well as copys of last year's Best Picture winner "Return of the King". According to the MPAA, one of the winners showed the video to her entire class during a "pirate pizza party" while the other student allowed his cousin to borrow his winning t-shirt w/ out paying the proper licensing fees.

Not suprising. by c0dedude · 2004-08-14 14:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

Librarians and free media have always been the standard-bearer for issues of personal liberty. A while back, a group of publishers sued libraries for distributing books. Libraries have carried books, even when they've been shunned by society. They were the first ones to rail against the PATRIOT Act. They are one of the most significant forces against promoters ignorance, misinformation, disinformation, and junk science in existance right now. Remeber who had the fewest misconceptions about the Iraq war?

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Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?

Re:Not suprising. by dj245 · 2004-08-14 14:46 · Score: 2, Funny

They are one of the most significant forces against promoters ignorance, misinformation, disinformation, and junk science in existance right now. Help me get a TV! [freeflatscreens.com]
I find it extremely amusing that you talk of ignorance, misinformation, disinformation, and junk, and then include a link to a scam for a free LCD TV in your sig. Should have been modded funny.

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Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Re:Not suprising. by Boiling_point_ · 2004-08-14 14:56 · Score: 5, Funny

Remeber who had the fewest misconceptions about the Iraq war?
You mean, apart from all the rest of us people outside the USA?

--
"If you create user accounts, by default, they will have an account type of Administrator with no password." KB Q293834
Re:Not suprising. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-14 15:20 · Score: 2, Funny

There are "people" outside the USA!?
Re:Not suprising. by tunabomber · 2004-08-14 18:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

Heh, whatever. Laura Bush is a librarian. Although I guess its possible she has completely different political beliefs than her husband, but keeps her mouth shut about them in public like a good Christian housewife.

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pi = 3.141592653589793helpimtrappedinauniversefactory71 ...

Another "Yay Go Librarians" Article by LordStrange · 2004-08-14 14:30 · Score: 5, Interesting

...by Kurt Vonnegut I Love You, Madame Librarian

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License: By reading this you are agreeing that you agree with me.

Re:Another "Yay Go Librarians" Article by jburroug · 2004-08-15 06:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

You're not familar with Vonnegut are you? He was, in his own imcomparable way, being sarcastic and satirical in that essay. He didn't compare all christians to Nazis either, he did point out that Bush calls himself a christian just as Hitler did, with the implication that just because one calls himself a good christian person doesn't make it so. Nor did he compare the actions of the US Army to those of the Wehrmacht or the SS, he's comparing the way people in the world today feel about American forces to how people felt about the Nazi's during/before WWII.

And Vonnegut knows a thing or two about Nazis and of war. He's a WWII veteran and was a POW in Dresden during the firebombing raids. His novel, Slaughter House Five is an account of that experience.

Vonnegut's style is to use extreme, often absurd and bizarre examples, as well as satire, to present his theme. Granted it's more effective in novel form than in essay form, unless you're already familar with his work and know what to expect. To the uninitiated this essay, if not read carefully, could come across as the liberal equivilant of an Ann Coulture essay, but trust me there's far more substance there. I would personally suggest picking up a copy of Mother Night or The Sirens of Titan (his first book) as good starting points if you want to read any of his books. Slaughter House Five is very personal and quite painful at times, so I woudln't recomend reading that until you've tackeled a couple of his other novels.

Micheal Moore is a chump compared to Vonnegut.

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"Listen: We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different!" - Kurt Vonnegut

Old-fashioned librarians are great people by LibrePensador · 2004-08-14 14:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

This borders on the obvious but librarians love books, which means that they are often well-informed liberals in the enlightenment sense of that word, i.e., someone who is broad-minded and tolerant of the views of others and expect others to behave in the same manner.

They also understand that our cultural heritage depends on free sharing for its preservation and nurturing -as does innovation. Librarians are therefore quite suspicious of those who try to place limits on the sharing of cultural outputs, particularly when they do so to benefit from the social conjectures and economic dislocations produced by a given technological moment in history.

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Pragmatism as an ideology is not particularly pragmatic in the long term. Keep it in mind when you dismiss Free Software

Re:Old-fashioned librarians are great people by jyoull · 2004-08-14 14:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

I wish i had some mod points for that IDEA.Civilization / society owe a lot to librarians for just providing some of the glue that holds it all together (as much as it barely sticks together at all). Also you should work with reference librarians whenever possible, and don't give me that crap (prior post) about "we just use the Internet." A great research talent is an incredible secret weapon.
Re:Old-fashioned librarians are great people by jc42 · 2004-08-14 15:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

Also you should work with reference librarians whenever possible, and don't give me that crap (prior post) about "we just use the Internet."

Actually, the idea that the Internet competes with libraries, while enticing, turns out to not be true at all. Public libraries all over are getting tied into the Internet, and for the poorer parts of society, this is often the only access to most of the world's information.

Librarians have generally figured out that the Internet doesn't replace hard-copy books; they complement each other in useful ways. Having Internet access in the library gives the librarians the freedom to be a lot more selective about what books they have on their shelves. They are starting to figure out what sorts of things are best presented in book form and which are better online. And libraries are migrating to a system that stocks up on the former while making the latter available via computers.

They just have to figure out how to handle the pr0n and spam problems ...

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Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Re:Old-fashioned librarians are great people by shigelojoe · 2004-08-14 15:10 · Score: 3, Funny

They just have to figure out how to handle the pr0n and spam problems ...

I agree whole-heartedly. I mean, last week I went to the library, checked out a book about financing a new home and found nothing but ads for Viagra and hookers. ;P
Re:Old-fashioned librarians are great people by Alsee · 2004-08-14 19:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

The Enlightenment is a specific period of history and that is what the poster was talking about.
The Enlightenment emphasized reason, tolerance and learning.

It's sad that emphasizing reason, tolerance and learning is considered a period of history. We could do with a revival.

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Re:Old-fashioned librarians are great people by number11 · 2004-08-14 19:28 · Score: 2, Informative

many librarians have been very active in the destruction of the historical record they are supposed to be preserving, in their active efforts to badly microfilm, then pulp, historical newspaper collections.

Cites?

Didn't think so.

Well, it's probably more library administrators (some of who are librarians) fighting to deal with inadequate budgets and space, and the demand for (and sexiness of) newer technologies (Internet access, CDs, etc.) that enroach on existing physical space. You want cites?

Do we want to keep our newspapers?
Novelist buys and saves old papers to avert their destruction

Re:Bah, parents aren't doing their jobs! by aelbric · 2004-08-14 14:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

Actually, education begins at home, indoctrination begins at school.

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nos laetus epulor qui would domito nos

Finally, some good news. by sexybomber · 2004-08-14 14:40 · Score: 3, Interesting

What a refreshing break from "Your rights are being diminished." "Bush is on the warpath." "SCO is being generally evil."

The librarians have enlisted Legolas by Dave21212 · 2004-08-14 14:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

The librarians have enlisted the help of Legolas Greenleaf of Mirkwood, Sindarin decendent of the Teleri...

I think the chance of being victorious over the BSA, MPAA, and RIAA's evil minions is good !

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"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."--Benjamin Franklin

Re:Bah, parents aren't doing their jobs! by jc42 · 2004-08-14 14:44 · Score: 5, Funny

It's even worse than you think. Most parents repeatedly attempt to instill in their impressionable childrens' minds the idea that nice people share their toys with their friends. This is a clear enticement to copyright violation.

And it's even worse than that. Many of those parents knowingly hand over their children to "schools", which are institutions that also attempt to teach the children that they should share.

After years of this sort of indoctrination, it's not surprising that the result should be teenagers (and even adults) who think that it's ok to violate copyright by sharing ideas, documents and music with each other.

These organizations are merely trying to interrupt this process and teach the children that ideas and songs are like toys and other kinds of property: Every child should have his or her own, every one should be paid for, and they should never be shared. Sharing is an economic perversion that undermines the private property that is at the heart of our corporate economic system.

(Lessee; will I get a "Troll" or "Funny" rating here? Maybe I need a ;-)

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Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.

I'm not enlisting in this "war" by orthogonal · 2004-08-14 14:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

"We're trying to educate children at a very young age about the importance of protecting copyrighted works," said Diane Smiroldo, vice president of public affairs for the BSA. "It's important to start talking to them at a very young age about creative works online and what you can and can't share with your friends."

Smiroldo compared the BSA's program to an antismoking or antilittering campaign. The curriculum doesn't talk about fair use but focuses on what are "right and wrong" behaviors online.

Hmm, lemme see, smoking harms the kid himself, littering defaces the entire community, and "pirating" copyrighted works hurts -- oh right, the Business Software Alliance.

And lemme see, these kids, having mastered all that readin', writin', and 'rithmeticin' -- ain't no child left behind no any more --, they've got plenty of time to spend learning a corporate lobbying group's version of "right and wrong".

I've never pirated music or software, and I do believe that the MPAA and the BSA should have the protection of copyright -- including the right to bring civil suit.

But when they try to co-opt the education of children and get the Department of Justice to bring their civil suits for them, and to pile criminal charges on top, well, it seems to me the corporations are getting much more than a fair shake.

Begins to remind me of the "War on Drugs" -- a "War" we'll never win but which benefits corporations building and running prisons (and the drug mafias and the prison guards' union) at the expense of cops and taxpayers and citizens.

It even makes me wonder if the "content providers" have gone so far as to forfeit their moral rights to copyright protection. There comes a time when you just have to say that the "cure" is worse than the "disease" (as for instance, the "War on Drugs") and tell those grabbing more than their fair share of money and legal power, "this far and no farther".

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Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?

Re:I'm not enlisting in this "war" by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · 2004-08-14 17:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

>I've never pirated music or software

Have you ever sung "Happy Birthday" in a restaurant?

It's still under copyright, by Summy-Birchard.

If you've performed it in a public place without paying ASCAP, you are a pirate in the eyes of the RIAA.

>it seems to me the corporations are getting much more than a fair shake.

I agree with the folks who modded your post insightful.

Re:No! Unfair! Confusing! by Tar-Palantir · 2004-08-14 15:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

They support porn access for kids...

There is a major difference between "supporting porn access for kids" and "opposing arbitrary, corporation-influenced censorship for all patrons".

I'm not sure how seriously you meant the quoted passage in your post, but it's wrong and I wanted to point that out.

All hail the librarians!!! by stox · 2004-08-14 15:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

IMHO, no other group of professionals in our society have done more to protect the American ideal of life. If you don't already, talk to your locla librarian. You will find them to be one of the most remarkable resources in your life.

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"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "

We need your help by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-14 15:40 · Score: 5, Informative

Librarians are getting overruled these days, not just by national directives such as the USA PATRIOT Act, but by activist governors.

Last month the South Dakota governor removed a section of the state library Web site because it gave health advice to teens.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/webguide/internetlife /2004 4-07-13-sd-censor_x.htm

This month the Kansas governor had rap CDs removed from all libraryies.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/06/li brary y.cdsettlement.ap/index.html

A Librarian

Re:We need your help by vettemph · 2004-08-14 16:44 · Score: 2, Funny

This month the Kansas governor had rap CDs removed from all libraryies. http://edition.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/06/li brary y.cdsettlement.ap/index.html
This statement is not helping your cause, trust me.

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The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.

Not even needed at most schools by ShatteredDream · 2004-08-14 15:50 · Score: 3, Interesting

At many schools the attitude is already decidedly against those groups. At my university, James Madison University in Virginia, AudioGalaxy usage was so high that we almost had our own self-contained AG system because that's how many local users had that many mp3s to share. The university only eventually busted users for bandwidth abuse when it got to the point that people in certain dorms couldn't even really use basic online university services like webmail.

Our CS program is also basically MS free and we're starting to get some real recognition by the NSA and DoHS for our information security work. Most of the CS and many of the other classes I've seen outside the department also are pretty hostile toward the views of these groups.

Good work, thanks libraries. However, the situation is much better on most campuses than many would believe.

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Click here or a puppy gets stomped!

Re:No! Unfair! Confusing! by anthro398 · 2004-08-14 15:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

You, MBCook, are a damned fool. The ALA supports a few things you might not have heard of on Fox News. We like to call them democracy, freedom, and liberty. You see, we, and I really mean me and the other library students with whom I am friends, believe that each American has the right to information and that access to information is the cornerstone of democracy.

Public librarians, of which my wife is one, do not want children to look at pornography. They also don't want children to wonder why they can't research papers on gay rights or learn about breast cancer. Filters do not work. They let some bad things through and they block some good things. Every day we see children unattended in the library. Their parents and apparently you would like to impose upon us the responsibility of parenting these children.

So, I find it lamentable that you hate the ALA who fights to protect your right to read without intervention by the Department of Homeland Security and defends Mark Twain from book burning "concerned parents". I am more disturbed, however, that you feel the ALA ideological slant (again, freedom;liberty;democracy) is evil.

evil? by minus_273 · 2004-08-14 15:54 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'm sorry, you can disagree but not label the other party evil. It sounds really childish and dilutes the meaning of a rather harsh term. It also distracts people from the message you are trying to get across.

--
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace

Go ALA by wrathcretin · 2004-08-14 15:56 · Score: 4, Interesting

Not quite familiar with the ALA, but up here in Canada, my library rents out books. It has a couple of small shelves of hardcover new stuff that you'd get for roughly 2-3$ a week. Pretty fair. I'm sure they're paying whatever legal duties or price for those books to rent them out and you can legally read the new Steve King book without shelling out an arm and a leg. That said, I happen to find it bloody interesting that the ALA is getting involved in the whole online/copyrighted scheme of things. This is a public organization, supported by public money (ie your tax dollars) that acquires a broad amount of copyrighted material (and at my local library it extends to music cd's, film, magazines etc) intended for free public consumption. I'm liking the idea of a public library using public money to now make that content available over the internet. The ends will justify the means. Imagine how culturally enriched we could be as a society if every young person (or at least those online - which in 15 years will be all of them) who would never set foot into a library, (come on, the place is flat out boring) could actually access the entire catalogue of available material from their computer when they got bored of ebaum's world. The business world, MPAA, RIAA, BSA etc can rape us of fair use and any use of our purchased items, but I love the idea of the ALA getting involved in this, because the more the average Joe can equate the concepts of copyright with that place where you can pay 3$ for a membership and take out whatever the hell you want and pay $0.05 a day late fees, the more the general public concensus will sway towards maintaining fair use and maintaining copyright for its originally intended purposes.

Re:Go ALA by Idarubicin · 2004-08-15 04:33 · Score: 2, Informative

Not quite familiar with the ALA, but up here in Canada, my library rents out books. It has a couple of small shelves of hardcover new stuff that you'd get for roughly 2-3$ a week. Pretty fair. I'm sure they're paying whatever legal duties or price for those books to rent them out and you can legally read the new Steve King book without shelling out an arm and a leg.
This sounds unusual, and I should correct what are likely misconceptions.
First of all, public libraries in Canada are generally free to use, as they are in other civilized nations. In a few areas, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a creeping trend towards annual user fees and whatnot, but I'm hoping that gets stomped on.
Public libraries in Canada are underfunded, however--again, as they are in most other 'civilized' nations. Libraries look for alternate revenue streams. What the parent describes is an opportunity to check out that new bestseller now, rather than waiting for several months for interest to die down. In exchange for that privilege, you pay a small premium. For a lot of people, paying $2 for a week's loan is a much better deal than buying the hardcover for $30.
That extra revenue in part will go to ensuring that the library does have a stock of the current bestsellers, but part of it I'm sure also gets diverted to other library programs. Note that the vast majority of the circulating collection is still available without charge.
In my experience, the only people that are charged for using the regular collections of a public library are individuals visiting from out of town--there's usually a nominal fee, because they haven't already contributed through their local taxes.
That said, I happen to find it bloody interesting that the ALA is getting involved in the whole online/copyrighted scheme of things. This is a public organization, supported by public money (ie your tax dollars) that acquires a broad amount of copyrighted material (and at my local library it extends to music cd's, film, magazines etc) intended for free public consumption.
Actually, this shouldn't be surprising at all. In working with (acquiring, storing, distributing, reading) copyrighted works day in and day out, members of the ALA are subject matter experts on the effects of copyright law. The ALA regularly has to squarely face questions of both copyright law and the First Amendment. Medical associations regularly make statements to the public on issues of health, even in countries (like Canada) where health care is largely publicly funded--and they do it partly for similar reasons. Your doctor doesn't want you to hear about medicine only from a drug company.
How much copyrighted material do most of us deal with in any given day...or lifetime? The ALA includes public libraries, university libraries, various technical groups, and more. A large university collection can exceed ten million items, and include books; maps; newspapers; magazines; recordings of music and the spoken word on CD, audio tape, and LP; moving pictures on 8 mm tape, VHS and Beta cassettes, Laserdisc and DVD; journals in paper and electronic format...plus university librarians also have to deal with professors who want to use copyrighted material in their courses.
Librarians would have to be a lot dimmer than we give them credit for if the ALA were not to take an active interest in the impact of copyright law.

--
~Idarubicin

Re:Bah, parents aren't doing their jobs! by Fancia · 2004-08-14 16:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

Religion doesn't *have* to be that, you know. There are religions which suggest critical thinking. Go back to St. Augustine in Christianity, and you'll find his *recommendation* to read non-Christian works. He was absolutely against a proclamation that banned the reading of non-Christian books by Christians.

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Bít, zabít, jen proto, ze su liska!

Libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-14 16:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

Wonder how many hypocrite copyright holders have ever borrowed a book from a library (and thus ripped off a poor publishing house).

Same with musicians. How many have benefitted from fair use and now vehemently oppose anyone "stealing" their work most of which is a derivation of fair use.

Re:No! Unfair! Confusing! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-08-14 16:15 · Score: 2, Funny

porn is bad, because it involves sex

violence is good, because we use it to kill bad guys

I don't know why people in the "outside US" (if that really exists) can't understand this

sex=bad, killing=good

basic American English lesson 101

Re:Hooray! by rock_climbing_guy · 2004-08-14 16:24 · Score: 4, Funny

CONAN, the LIBRARIAN!!!!

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Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???

So Where Can We Get It? by SEWilco · 2004-08-14 16:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

So where can we see the information?

Yup, the article mentions high school librarians will get copies. I'm sure high schools will be thrilled to have more visitors to their libraries. We need a date posted, so we can /. libraries.

The ALA's aims by 0x0d0a · 2004-08-14 16:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

Hmm, lemme see, smoking harms the kid himself, littering defaces the entire community, and "pirating" copyrighted works hurts -- oh right, the Business Software Alliance.

To be fair, copyright is a mechanism with a purpose other than just enriching the BSA. It's part of a system designed to allow content funding to be produced.

The ALA is just interested in people not having something presented as "right" and something else presented as "wrong" -- they'd rather have people consider the benefits themselves.

I have no problem with copyright per se -- the question is whether it is still practical and useful in its current from in present day, where it is nearly impossible to enforce, and where it has been extended far, far beyond the intent of its creators.

Many Slashdotters may not like Britney Spears. However, she clearly entertains many people, and I don't have a problem with publishers making money off her if they are entertaining people -- if that's what people want, let them have her.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that they should have her for her lifetime and well beyond, nor am I convinced that copyright can be enforced any more, nor am I comfortable with DMCA-based end runs around fair use. That doesn't mean that we should "drop copyright" -- we have a number of content-producing mechanisms that are based around it, and no good systems that will necessarily replace them. It does mean that copyright reform may be necessary, and given that I feel that the ALA is a group of people with a good deal of insight into copyright-related issues, I'm more inclined to listen to what they have to say than a number of the other players in the copyright game.

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May we never see th

Burn, baby burn... by HermanAB · 2004-08-14 16:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think it is time that Americans come to their senses and burn all the evil libraries down.

Repent! Repent! and Read no More!

Come to think of it, the American school system is actually doing a marvelous job with creating illiterate young adults, so the **AAs have nothing to fear. Eventually, everybody will have to pay someone (in another country) to read for them and all reading will be outsourced to India.

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Oh well, what the hell...

Re:No! Unfair! Confusing! by Qwaniton · 2004-08-14 16:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

Don't blame him. He's blindly spouting rhetoric. The reason he's a neocon is because neoconservatism strongly appeals to insecure people...i.e., nerds. Neoconservatism is a "manly man" political philosophy. (I'm trying to remain as neutral as possible.) Neoconservative rhetoric appeals to the insecure because it makes people feel dominant, in control, alpha-male, and morally superior.

As far as I'm concerned, as a recovered ex-neoconservative, this rhetoric does not correlate with reality. However, I can't blame him. It's taken him over like a virus, just like it had done to me. Even the most logically rigorous are prone to this powerful fallacy.

Schools and indoctrination by 0x0d0a · 2004-08-14 16:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

And it's even worse than that. Many of those parents knowingly hand over their children to "schools", which are institutions that also attempt to teach the children that they should share.

Schools are an interesting system -- they both indoctrinate and inform. Control of the schools is one of the most powerful long-term institutions to control.

It's not even that I dislike the BSA/RIAA/MPAA that much -- I just don't want *any* corporate marketing taking place in schools. If the BSA/RIAA/MPAA wants to fund a marketing campaign, they can certainly do so, and there are many channels that will let them target children -- but not in the schools, dammit. If schools are filled with marketing drivel, how can children trust anyone? It's not that I'm saying that people shouldn't question what they're taught in schools, but some things have to be at least accepted in the short term in order to operate, while we learn enough to find inconsistencies in arguments -- the stuff in schools is normally less trusted than than in 30 second spots between advertisements.

If the Weekly Reader wants to sell a section of their space to the BSA, I'd at least like to see them have to donate equal space to groups like the ALA and the EFF, to present kids with both sides of an issue and let them think their own way through the issues involved.

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May we never see th

Re:No! Unfair! Confusing! by JimRay · 2004-08-14 17:33 · Score: 4, Informative

They support porn access for kids and have a serious liberal slant and there are so many reasons I don't like them.

Um, what? Porn access for kids? Can you point me to a link where the ALA advocates giving out porn to the kids that walk in their libraries? Google seems to be letting me down here.

And the liberal bias thing - I just don't get it. Most librarians I know support smaller, less intrusive government, which seems pretty conservative to me.

The occasional forays into politics that librarians have made in the past few years seem to be the moderating voices of reason, like questioning the value of having a government mandated censor at the firewall or letting the FBI see what books you check out without so much as warrant. These seem like valid questions to be raised, and if the government were suddenly making your job more difficult, while cutting your funding, I'd expect you to be raising similar questions, as a matter of patriotism.

Or were you just being disengenuous?

--
My other computer is your Windows box

Re:Business Reply Mail by Tesral · 2004-08-14 18:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

Why? Just mail it blank. Print a hundred and mail them blank.

Oh, and just so it is known they are NOT paying 37c a piece. They have a business reply bulk rate, you can bet on it.

That said, money is money, and money spent to get blank survays back would be a bear. I wouldn't even print the survey side. Just the reply side.

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Garry AKA -Phoenix- Rising Above the Flames
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

Re:Look near the bottom of slashdot's webpage by chary · 2004-08-14 18:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

"I think it's important to remind everyone that even slashdot seems concerned about protecting it's copyrighted material"

So does the FSF. What's your point? When Slashdot starts sending out COD letters to people because they've copy and pasted a goatse link, it's time to start shouting and screaming...

hey, teacher, leave those kids alone by Doc+Ruby · 2004-08-14 19:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

How about teaching kids their basic rights, like when they're stopped by police on the street, in their car, or in attempts to search their home? Is copyright more important to inculcate than Miranda rights? Or their rights in a jury to nullify an unjust law used in the trial? Until these priorities are addressed, public education is just another tedious exercise in corporate indoctrination.

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--
make install -not war

Re:hey, teacher, leave those kids alone by dangermouse · 2004-08-15 01:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

Uh, public education has ALWAYS been nothing but a tedious exercise in corporate indoctrination.
Really? That's funny, I somehow came out of public grade school (in the late 90s) both literate and reasonably well read; with a pretty good background in history; with knowledge of the basics in chemistry, biology, and physics; with mathematics through some elementary calculus; and most importantly, with a desire to learn more and knowledge of how to do so. I was neither "bored" nor "bewildered" (per your buddy Gatto) when I graduated, and somehow I doubt McDonald's gives a shit about any of the things I learned.
There's some bad shit going down in the public school system, but the root cause is not that public schools were built to fulfill some evil corporate agenda-- it's underfunding, plain and simple. People talk a good game about reforming the schools, but always look for solutions that don't involve paying anything, even if they have to solve the wrong problems to do so.
I've just read the site you linked, and sorry pal, but the Gatto's a grade A conspiracy nut.
What better way to habituate kids to abandoning trust in their peers (and themselves) than to create an atmosphere of constant low-level stress and danger, relief from which is only available by appeal to authority? And many times not even then!
I there's some evidence in his book, but I've read my fair share of UFO and conspiracy magazines, so I know this pattern and I have a pretty good idea of the kind of evidence I'm likely to see. This is exactly the same spiel as "the government is keeping us scared so they can impose martial law", or "the UN secretly instigates wars so it can stay in power". It's paranoid bullshit, and it obscures real problems in need of real solutions. I'm sorry if your schooling (public or otherwise) didn't prepare you to discern sensation from insight... mine did.

4th graders probably won't even matter by ShatteredDream · 2004-08-14 23:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

I remember the "don't copy that floppy" bullshit which was a lot more imaginative than the new campaign they're trying. It didn't work then, it won' work now. The ones they tried to indoctrinate last time became the "file sharing generation" for God's sake.

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Click here or a puppy gets stomped!

Intellectual freedom by thrashor · 2004-08-15 00:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

I was pleased to hear this announcement and am hopeful that other national library organizations will follow suit in their own jurisdictions - students should not be exposed to a single perspective on this or any issue. To quote Tony Samek, of the University of Alberta's School of Library and Information Studies, "The largest current threat to intellectual freedom in Alberta [Canada] is the dwindling numbers of Teacher-Librarians employed in the province." Who else will defend intellectual freedom in the K-12 system?

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i just want to play go

All I have to say is by ShadowRage · 2004-08-15 01:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

yay, go librarians. seriously. this is a good move. last thing I'd want is for my child having to go to school to get brainwashed by some companies to fit their financial interests.

It's much like how the communists infiltrated schools, or the McCarthy era here, where all teachers told their children to report their parents' communist activities to them. etc.

It's very sick that people use children as tools.

One thing people always seem to do is use younge children and the elderly, becauset hey know the two groups arent likely to sock them in the face and tell them to fuck off.

Re:No! Unfair! Confusing! by Tarwn · 2004-08-15 02:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

While I agree with the general thrust of your commentary, I feel I have to point out the major fallacy in your supporting points:
"They also don't want children to wonder why they can't research papers on gay rights or learn about breast cancer"

The purpose of fighting against the proposed filtering programs twofold. One, because the ALA believes people have a right to access constitutionally protected material in a public institution, and Two, because even with a definition of obscenity/et al, the tests of filtering software show that there are many cases whee the software will let through "obscene" items while also suppressing non-"obscene", First Amendment protected items.

The reason I pointed out the particular phrase above is because it gives rhe wrong impression. The ALA does not want to support children's questioning of why materials are blocked because the basis of that statement is that materials are blocked.

I too believe in parents having to take responsibility for parenting their children, unfortunatly I am a conservative, which in these environs generally means everything I say, regardless of content or logic, is either incorrect or gross inflation of some party line.

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Whee signature.

More cheers for the ALA! by intnsred · 2004-08-15 02:12 · Score: 4, Informative

While the story topic is nice, IMHO, the ALA's work in publicizing Ashcroft's demand that libraries remove information about certain US laws from their libraries is far, far more important of a public service!

Everyone's favorite tyrant AG John Ashcroft wanted ordered the American Library Association to destroy all copies of the federal laws on asset forfeiture and to prevent disclosure of their content. Thanks to quick action and a lot of publicity by the ALA and others, the fascists backed off.

Kill the copyright weasel by makhnolives · 2004-08-15 05:18 · Score: 3, Interesting

As an anarchist librarian, it's good to hear that my association is going to launch an aggressive campaign about fair use and the problems with copyrights. I've been advocating against copyrights and intellectual property laws for over ten years, so it's really exciting that more and more people are seeing through the stupidity of IP laws. This swing will continue as the greedy corporations continue to engage in stupid things against the public domain and idea sharing.

Hey Disney, you didn't invent Sleeping Beauty!

World changing? by IWannaBeAnAC · 2004-08-15 05:47 · Score: 4, Funny

You know the world has changed when librarians start getting miltant...

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