Hell, I read the original article as "soldier in space" the first time. I just couldn't think of anything funny to make of it.
Water in a frypan can be similar
by
Ratso+Baggins
·
· Score: 3, Informative
Put a teaspoon of water into a well heated frypan and the water (while it is still a liquid) will generally form up in little blobs and behaves in a similar fashion. ie. moving in a circular motion.
--
-- "we live in a post-ideological world..." - Billy Bragg.
Re:Water in a frypan can be similar
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 3, Informative
When it starts to do this, then it's ready for the pancake batter.
Re:Water in a frypan can be similar
by
delus10n0
·
· Score: 4, Informative
I don't think that is the same thing.. what you're describing is the Leidenfrost effect.
-- Not All Who Wander Are Lost
Re:Water in a frypan can be similar
by
Spock+the+Baptist
·
· Score: 1
Maybe it should be 'not all those who wonder are Leidenfrost.'
-- "Oh drat these computers, they're so naughty and so complex, I could pinch them." --Marvin the Martian
Re:Water in a frypan can be similar
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
I can't believe this actually got moderated "Informative".
Re:Water in a frypan can be similar
by
tsg
·
· Score: 2, Informative
What makes the water skitter around the pan is the steam underneath the droplet escaping to one side. The boiling rosin vapor may be escaping from one side of the ball and creating a jet.
-- People's desire to believe they are right is much stronger than their desire to be right.
Re:Water in a frypan can be similar
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
I can't believe my penis is so large.
Did anybody else...
by
venomkid
·
· Score: 2, Funny
...read this "Soldiering in Space"?
And then think "Wow! What kind of gun is a FLUX!?"
pfft.
--
vk.
Re:Did anybody else...
by
CXI
·
· Score: 0, Redundant
And then think "Wow! What kind of gun is a FLUX!?"
... and what sort of capacity might it have?
-- Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
handmadehands.co.uk
Firemarshall Bill sez
by
Tumbleweed
·
· Score: 4, Funny
"Lemme SHOWYASOMETHIN'!
Let's say, kids, that you're in space, doing all those amaaaaaazing astronaut duties, like, say, performing a SOLDERING EXPERIMENT!
There you are, performing your scientific experiments on soldering in space, with SUPERHOTSOLDER! Suddenly, your astronaut compatriot, who had the little spaceman's mexican meal packet, farts REALLY POWERFULLY in your direction, distracting your attention, and the SUPERHOTSOLDER goes right into yours eyes, blinding you for life!
Be careful up there, kids - space is dangerous and full of monsters and SUPERHOTSOLDER!"
Why it spins.
by
CryptoEngineer
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
As to why the rosin separates from the solder, I don't know. But I think I know why it spins.
Heat is being conducted into the rosin ball from the molten solder. The rosin is boiling or vaporising. Initially, this is symettric, but if only a small jiggle occurs, one side of the blob gets cooled by the air, and starts to vaporize at a lower rate. The other, trailing side vaporizes at a higher rate, and in reaction of the ball experiences a push from that side. The movement increases the cooling effect on the upwind side, and the process feeds on itself. Since the rosin blob touches only the liquid solder, there is little or no friction , and these tiny effects can build up.
The astronaut was lucky the rosin ball didn't come right off and hit him in the eye.
Re:Why it spins.
by
Orne
·
· Score: 2, Informative
You'll notice in the video he's wearing goggles.
Re:Why it spins.
by
RobertB-DC
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
The astronaut was lucky the rosin ball didn't come right off and hit him in the eye.
I noticed, though, that the smoke from the heated ball of solder and rosin was clearly "rising" away from the astronaut. I'm guessing that they were using a fan or something similar to blow gases away. I'd be curious to know what happens when you melt this sort of solder without a breeze -- I'll have to google "zero gee flame" to see what the latest combustion experiments have yielded.
Also interesting... at 0:43 or so (in the Windows Media version), it looks like the guy holding the fan got distracted as the rosin bubble started spinning. The smoke starts moving in other directions, and a small chunk of... something... goes flying off to the upper right of the frame. Wonder what that was?
-- Stressed? Me?
Of course not.
Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Re:Why it spins.
by
shfted!
·
· Score: 3, Informative
You need a forced ventilation system in space, as microgravity and a confined space doesn't create enough of a gradiant to properly mix and balance the various gases in the air (like oxygen). So yes, they have fans.
-- He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.
I too noticed the spin. The instant I saw it I thought of the motion of our planets, solar system, even galaxies. I would like to see more experiments done on this. Perhaps the introduction of heat to objects may introduce new ideas about the scheme of our motion in space. Or am I just high?
Re:Why it spins.
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 0
It spins because there's gas (from the flux) leaving the blob of solder. As the blob of solder isn't uniformly hot, the flux will leave from one point. the jet of flux pushes the blob into a spin. It may even be just the flux spinning round the blob of solder as there'll be very little surface friction.
I think you are dead on here, I was thinking the same thing...
On a related note - I wonder if the flux in welding rod (stick arc welding) would behave the same way? I also wonder if NASA could build a MIG-style solder gun (and use argon or something as an inert gas for preventing the oxidation - though that wouldn't cure the wetting issue of solder)?
I have an alternate hypothesis: As the droplet moves, it is encountering hotter solder on it's leading edge. The resin wets the metal beter at the higher temperature and the droplet is pulled around the solder by this leading edge.
I believe a similar effect has been employed to move small water droplets around on a flat surface by pulling them along with a laser.
Re:Yes but what about the ants?
by
2nd+Post!
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
Dunno, seems kinda fundamentally useful to know. Theory is one thing, observation is another.
I mean, would you have predicted that outcome in space? If no, then there is value, because that unexpected answer is basis for all sorts of future developments to build upon that answer.
If yes, then please tell us what else we can do with this discovery?
Re:Yes but what about the ants?
by
AKAImBatman
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Believe it or not, this type of thing could be very useful to know. Sure, it's just a simple solder now, but what about other melted metals? For example, take 3D printing. Gravity tends to limit the types of shapes you can make, and the materials you can use. But what if we could 3D print steel? We could build a spaceship in record time! All we'd need are some "printer" robots and CAD software to control them!
Re:Yes but what about the ants?
by
Sgt+York
·
· Score: 1
I hope you're just being sarcastic, but my sarcasm detector is on the fritz.
Somebody did something in their free time that you deem a waste of time and effort? Go figure.
If you read the article that you linked, you will see that the astronauts did this in their *free time*. As in time during which there was nothing else planned. As in time to goof off and relax.
I'm actually kind of impressed that they see their free time as a chance to do *more* experiments. Besides, this is the kind of basic science, the fundamental pursuit of knowledge just because it's cool and it piques you interest. This is what pure science is all about. How can you call yourself a geek and not know that?
BTW, if anyone hasn't read that article, you should check it out. It's kinda cool.
--
There is a reason for everything. Sometimes that reason just sucks.
Re:Yes but what about the ants?
by
kippy
·
· Score: 1
I'm only half sarcastic. If you check here you'll see that this soldering thing has become an actual project on the station.
after looking at the list of projects going on on the ISS, I still am left wondering what they are doing to justify the crippling cost of building an orbital manned habitat. How many of these things are practically automated anyway? What is the justification of putting humans in this station when they are completely dependent on re-supply missions? How much time and money is spent on building, maintaining and expanding the thing as opposed to doing science?
I'm all for manned space exploration but only if it can lead to self sufficiency. ISS will never have any hope of being cut free of earth based support. I have yet to see a convincing argument that ISS is uniquely suited to any experiment that could be done by machine, on earth, on another world or in transit to another world.
ISS is a dead end and everything being done on it could be done while on the way to settling space in a more practical manner. Please cite some examples if you disagree.
Re:Yes but what about the ants?
by
Sgt+York
·
· Score: 2, Informative
The free time comment was directed only at the thin-films link you posted. I was under the impression that the soldering was started as an official project.
You won't find much disagreement from me about wether ISS is run well. It's not. It could be used for some very good things, but currently, it's not. It is uniquely suited to physiological research on the effects of long-term microgravity exposure (needed for manned exploratory missions) and is a good testbed for manufacturing technologies and research applications. There are some things that can be done better in space; molecular biology structural research, for one (many crystals grow better w/o gravity). I'm a biochemist, so that's the only one I'm familiar with, but I have heard of technologies that would benefit from vaccuum and/or microgravity. I just don't know enough to discuss them intelligently.
ISS could be a great place to determine the feasibility of these manufacturing applications, the success of which could help draw industry and private groups into space. Granted that's a lot of "could's" and the first run of these tests should be done via automated satellite, with the second run on the shuttle (or its replacement). ISS testing should be final phase, but it should still be a phase.
The best thing about it, though, is the public image and exposure. In the absence of any other space-based industry, the thing that will draw real money there is tourism. As it grows, tourism will eventually bring the industry connected with it. This will draw more people and money up, which will reduce launch costs, which will increase flux into space (I'm talking decades to centuries here).
As for building and maintenance, I work in a research lab. The cost of keeping things going is huge. The cost of housing the animals alone exceeds the salary of two technicians. It costs more annually for me to do my work than it does to pay me (although that's not saying much), and much of that is tied up in utilities, maintenance, ventillation, and the like. ISS is a unique lab, and it is needed to determine the effects of living and working in space long-term, on both men and equipment. The shuttle can't stay up for months at a time. Any work you do on it, at all, furthers this goal. It is an expensive lab, but it is useful.
IMHO, the issue is that expensive labs need to be run well.
--
There is a reason for everything. Sometimes that reason just sucks.
Re:Yes but what about the ants?
by
kippy
·
· Score: 1
We know from decades of time on Mir, Skylab, Shuttle missions and others about microgravity on humans. Conclusion? It's bad for you if you're exposed for a long, long time. How long? I seem to remember a cosmonaut coming down from over a year on Mir and playing tennis after a day of recovery. How many more years and billions should we spend to rediscover what we already know? Take your vitamins and exercise. That should have been the conclusion of microgravity research years ago.
I'm not sure if we need to learn anything more for interplanetary missions. The time to get to Mars is shorter than the longest amount of time spent on a space station so it seems to me that we're set to go on that point.
I'm still waiting on an experiment that must be done in microgravity by a human in person. As for tourism, unless you charge a billion dollars per trip and do at least a trip per month, it's unlikely that it will have any significant effect on the ISS budget. A few million dollars every couple years isn't going to pay for much more than the freeze-dried ice cream.
If NASA wanted good public exposure, it would be stepping up it's manned planetary agenda. ISS is a political miscarriage of a mission and it's public relation benefits are marginal. Ask a kid if they'd rather be an astronaut and go to the Moon or Mars or if they'd want to be an astronaut and go to the space station for a few weeks. I'll bet you anything that the space station looses out.
Besides, it's not like artificial gravity is impossible. just spin the craft. The coriolis forces are not much worse than getting used to your sea legs. This is like when high altitude fighter pilots were first encountering problems breathing in the low pressure of the high atmosphere. Some said they should wear oxygen masks as they do now. Others said that drugs should be developed to slow the metabolism of the pilot so that they wouldn't need as much oxygen. As ludicrous as that sounds, a lot of time and effort was wasted to study that. It's the same now. Rather than taking the obvious countermeasures against 0g exposure (exercise, good diet, spinning the craft), we're wasting time and money re-learning the same stuff.
Re:Yes but what about the ants?
by
Sgt+York
·
· Score: 1
Take your vitamins and exercise. That should have been the conclusion of microgravity research years ago.
It's not that simple. Proper diet and exercise help alleiviate some of the symptoms, but it does not correct all of them. Simply saying "It's bad for you, don't do it" could be applied to exposure to vaccuum as well. But we came up with solutions. Furthermore, there are spinoffs. Examining the effects of the environment not only helps us better prepare people for exploration, but it also helps with normal earthbound physiology. We have learned volumes about circulation, respiration, wound healing, and inflammatory responses because of the microgravity experiments, many done on ISS. And there are equally large volumes of questions raised by that research. We have learned a lot, but have a LOT more to learn; we are not relearning the same stuff.
But you're right on one point. We probably have enough physiology info to go to Mars somewhat safely.
As for exclusivity, there are the crystal growth experiments. These take weeks to months to do properly, and some crystals that simply cannot be grown on earth do grow in space. As for automation, ask any structural biologist. Crystal growth is 75% art, 25% science. You can't automate it effectively. And, as I said, I have seen articles about the benefits of other technologies as well, but I am in no way informed enough to defend them. Maybe someone else reading this thread is.
The tourism angle is a very long term thing. You can't look at annual P&L reports to see it. Besides, NASA is not in the business of business.
Would a kid (or adult) rather go to Mars or ISS? What do you think? If you compare Mars to Epsilon Erandi, or the Crab Nebula which one wins?
Is it even remotely possible for someone to go to Mars right now? No. To make a tourism splash, what you propose must be possible. Therefore, ISS gets it. How long until we can sell tickets to Mars or the Moon? How long until we can sell tickets to ISS, or orbit? One step at a time. We're just taking too long at this step.
--
There is a reason for everything. Sometimes that reason just sucks.
I like this. After seeing how that flux moves, all they have to do is figure out how to store the flux energy... in some kind of flux capacitor... then, *bingo*, instant time travel!;-)
-Jim
and in case that was too off the wall, have a look at:
-- The Web is like Usenet, but
the elephants are untrained.
If you don't use rosin...
by
angelrae
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
... wouldn't that prevent the problem of circling solder? It seems to me that the rosin wouldn't be necessary in space because oxidation doesn't need to be prevented. NASA says that
"hydrogen and helium are the prime components and are only present at extremely low densities" in space. Thus, the only reason I could see rosin being necessary is if the soldering would take place inside the space vessel. Otherwise, it seems to me that rosin could be removed from solder that is to be used on the space-side of these vessels.
Re:If you don't use rosin...
by
nusratt
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
"the only reason I could see rosin being necessary is if the soldering would take place inside the space vessel"
I think that was the general idea: the behavior of solder when lacking *gravity*, not when lacking *oxygen*.
I don't imagine that a lot of EVA repair work would involve soldering: anything *outside* the capsule had better use stronger connections than solder.
I wonder if soldering EVA would also run into a problem in maintaining the necessary heat.
Re:If you don't use rosin...
by
cmowire
·
· Score: 2, Informative
See, that was my thought too.
I don't think that doing it in a vacuum is the world's greatest idea. Space suit gloves do a number on your manual dexterity.
Given that you are probably going to have to collect the fumes anyway, it's probably not the world's worst idea to solder in a nitrogen filled bag, which fixes that problem.
The problem, I think, is that not only are you cleaning off any of the newly created oxidation from the soldering iron, you are also cleaning off any of the existing oxidation. And, furthermore, you are also changing the surface tension to better allow the solder to flow. So you probably still need the flux.
I'm just amazed that it took folks this long to start thinking about these sorts of things and actually working on them.
Re:If you don't use rosin...
by
cmowire
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
I thought that maintaining heat would be a problem, too.
Then it was pointed out by another slashdotter that vacuum is an insulator. As demonstrated by the Thermos container.
Soldering *might* be useful outside of one's spacecraft eventually. I'm mostly thinking of plumbing solder for running piping, however. But I imagine that doing relatively precise soldering while wearing spacesuit gloves wouldn't be the world's easiest task. But yeah, they'll probably be more interested in space welding than anything else.
Re:If you don't use rosin...
by
techgeek10101
·
· Score: 0
I am pretty sure this was not done in a vacuum. The man soldering appeared to be breathing just fine.
Re:If you don't use rosin...
by
freqres
·
· Score: 1
Soldering *might* be useful outside of one's spacecraft eventually. I'm mostly thinking of plumbing solder for running piping, however.
I don't think plumging in outerspace is really feasible. The space pants just don't ride low enough on the hips and I don't know what kind of crazy physics type anomaly would manifest itself when you expose plumber's crack to the vacuum of outerspace.
-- Rampant Ninja related crimes these days...Whitehouse is not the exception
Re: "vacuum is an insulator"
by
nusratt
·
· Score: 1
"I thought that maintaining heat would be a problem, too. Then it was pointed out by another slashdotter that vacuum is an insulator."
Yes, but I wasn't thinking of heat being lost to the vacuum of space (during EVA). I'm thinking about heat being lost to anything which is directly or indirectly connected to the workpiece, because *they* would be cold (at least if not facing the sun).
containing the smell?
by
smaksly
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Wouldn't the smell of the solder pose a problem in the spaceship?
I remember reading a story about how strong fumes affect astronauts and that everything that goes into a spaceship gets sniffed to make sure its not emitting any unpleasant odors.
I remember reading a story about how strong fumes affect astronauts and that everything that goes into a spaceship gets sniffed to make sure its not emitting any unpleasant odors.
The difference is that this would be a short term odor source that could be cleaned up through filtering the air through carbon filters. Once the source of the odor is gone (soldering) you can eliminate the odor. A piece of plastic that slowly gives off an odor for months and months is a different matter entirely since you can't eliminate the odor source.
The funny part is that Americans seem to pronounce words exactly how they're spelled, e.g buoy, Gloucester... Or they change the spelling to suit their own pronunciation - sulfur, ax, etc
The first time an American ( a jeweller as it happened) said "sodder" to me I though it was some new way of joining metals.
Why didn't the resin splatter and land on his hand making it very hard to hold everything in place? Solder usually works that way.
I think you've got it.
by
Libertarian_Geek
·
· Score: 2, Informative
To add to it, as it spins around, the leading edge is cooled more than the trailing edge, therefore keeping one side hotter than the other, letting the vapor jet propel it around vs jittering.
Slashdot Mirror
heh wouldn't want to have to do emergency circuit board soldering in space if thats the way it acts, it could be alot of fun
"WebTV: bringing the Internet into the shallow end of the gene pool since 1995" - Martin Bishop
Now Science Officer Smith can properly mod the spaceship's PS3/XBOX2/etc. for the long trip to Mars.
...who read that as "Soldier in Space"?
Put a teaspoon of water into a well heated frypan and the water (while it is still a liquid) will generally form up in little blobs and behaves in a similar fashion. ie. moving in a circular motion.
--
"we live in a post-ideological world..." - Billy Bragg.
...read this "Soldiering in Space"?
And then think "Wow! What kind of gun is a FLUX!?"
pfft.
vk.
"Lemme SHOWYASOMETHIN'!
Let's say, kids, that you're in space, doing all those amaaaaaazing astronaut duties, like, say, performing a SOLDERING EXPERIMENT!
There you are, performing your scientific experiments on soldering in space, with SUPERHOTSOLDER! Suddenly, your astronaut compatriot, who had the little spaceman's mexican meal packet, farts REALLY POWERFULLY in your direction, distracting your attention, and the SUPERHOTSOLDER goes right into yours eyes, blinding you for life!
Be careful up there, kids - space is dangerous and full of monsters and SUPERHOTSOLDER!"
As to why the rosin separates from the solder, I don't know. But I think I know why it spins.
Heat is being conducted into the rosin ball from the molten solder. The rosin is boiling or vaporising. Initially, this is symettric, but if only a small jiggle occurs, one side of the blob gets cooled by the air, and starts to vaporize at a lower rate. The other, trailing side vaporizes at a higher rate, and in reaction of the ball experiences a push from that side. The movement increases the cooling effect on the upwind side, and the process feeds on itself. Since the rosin blob touches only the liquid solder, there is little or no friction , and these tiny effects can build up.
The astronaut was lucky the rosin ball didn't come right off and hit him in the eye.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/images/sol der/video_final/iss.mpg
As the solder heats up, a little drop of flux starts to spin rapidly around the ball of molten solder. It's a seriously weird effect.
TANSTAAFI: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free iPod.
Did we get results yet on their screw sorting capabilities?
$100 billion dollar space station and this is the kind of results we get? This is almost as pathetic as this.
Blaze a trail to the New World
what charges a flux capacitor. Now, I know. If they can just get it to spin in the other direction, maybe that DeLorean will start working.
I like this. After seeing how that flux moves, all they have to do is figure out how to store the flux energy ... in some kind of flux capacitor ... then, *bingo*, instant time travel! ;-)
2 0c apacitor
-Jim
and in case that was too off the wall, have a look at:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Flux%
... wouldn't that prevent the problem of circling solder? It seems to me that the rosin wouldn't be necessary in space because oxidation doesn't need to be prevented. NASA says that "hydrogen and helium are the prime components and are only present at extremely low densities" in space. Thus, the only reason I could see rosin being necessary is if the soldering would take place inside the space vessel. Otherwise, it seems to me that rosin could be removed from solder that is to be used on the space-side of these vessels.
"I thought that maintaining heat would be a problem, too. Then it was pointed out by another slashdotter that vacuum is an insulator."
Yes, but I wasn't thinking of heat being lost to the vacuum of space (during EVA).
I'm thinking about heat being lost to anything which is directly or indirectly connected to the workpiece, because *they* would be cold (at least if not facing the sun).
Wouldn't the smell of the solder pose a problem in the spaceship?
I remember reading a story about how strong fumes affect astronauts and that everything that goes into a spaceship gets sniffed to make sure its not emitting any unpleasant odors.
Hey whatdya know? I happen to be soldering in space RIGHT NOW.
Logic, macros, and more
Am I the only who laughs at the US pronunciation of 'solder' and 'soldering'. They pronounce it like 'sodder' and 'soddering', how scary ! :-)
It is amazing how far the Iraq=Al Qaeda lie has spread.
Bush lies, soldier dies.
Why didn't the resin splatter and land on his hand making it very hard to hold everything in place? Solder usually works that way.
To add to it, as it spins around, the leading edge is cooled more than the trailing edge, therefore keeping one side hotter than the other, letting the vapor jet propel it around vs jittering.
www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights
www.fairtax.org