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British Town Worried About WWII Ammo Ship Wreck
Radical Rad writes "For 60 years, 1.4 kilotons of unstable world war II bombs have lain in the rusting wreck of a US cargo ship half-submerged on a sandbank in the river Thames. If it explodes it will be one of the biggest non-nuclear explosions ever with predictions of a 3 kilometre high wall of mud, water, and metal fragments causing devastation to the nearby town of Sheerness in Kent." The BBC has more.
no, just unstable... which would be scarier than stable explosives
main(0)
hmmm "The government has been advised that doing nothing isn't really a sensible option any more."
... with something having a continuous risk, no matter how small, the chance of it exploding approaches one over time... it seems like something should have been done immediately... certainly not 60 years later. The only excuse I can think of is the hope that the technology would improve enough to find a safer way to safeguard the town, but surely no one thought this would happen quick enough to be worth the risk... this sounds like a bunch of people not willing to take a risk and just waiting for the next person to take on the responsibility... pah.
She said the last examination, in 2003, showed the site to be no more dangerous than in the past.
Alright, according to the article the bombs could detonate at any point spontaneously, but the risk hasn't changed from the past,
WANNAWIKI Wannawiki WannaWiki WANNAWIKI!
>After all this time that something is going to happen? Would some of the explosives now be inert?
= explosives+unstable+age
Apparently, many types of explosives become unstable as they age, meaning that an explosion becomes more likely over time.
http://safety.utoledo.edu/explosives.asp
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q
According to the linked BBC piece, the wave caused by a potential explosion would not be 3km high, it would be 16ft high. The New Scientist makes mention of a 3000m column of debris: that is material would reach a maximum height of 3km. This is entirely different from a tsunami-like wave baselessly alluded to by the Slashdot blurb.
As a participent/observer, I can attest that (ignoring some misc. issues), it blow'ed up real good! ;-)
Hulk SMASH Celiac Disease
If it's a U.S. cargo ship, are we responsible for cleaning up our mess?
Alternate solution #1 - make the guy who sunk it clean it up.
Alternate solution #2 -Make the guy who started the war clean it up.
There are UXO's from WWI and WWII all over Europe. From all sides. The get cleaned up as they are found, by whomever finds them. Hopefully cleaned up under control.
What happens when explosives are stored improperly (and I can't imagine anything more improper) is the material separates. This leaves the inert material and nitroglycerine. Thats about as unstable as it gets. Nitro is bad news.
In dynamite they use fullers earth, a uniformly porus sand, to evenly distriute the nitro. When dynamite sweats, run, thats nitro. In WWII nitro-celulose was used in many explosives, the same thing can happen.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
By coincidence, I had just read the New Scientist's article about this, which is the source of the BBC article, but in much more depth and with many more details,
The Richard Montgomery is 2Km+ from Sheerness and 10Km+ from Southend-on-Sea [locally referred to as "Southend-on-Mud"] the other side of the estuary.
Furthermore the wreck is underwater (!!) which is going to substantially reduce the flying debris and airbourne shockwave ... the exact effects depending on the tides. Southend's tidal range is about 5-6m so I would expect it to be similar on the other side of the estuary.
I was about to post about this exact same event.
a x
An interesting note, the Halifax explosion would rate as the largest manmade explosion until the atomic bomb almost 28 years later.
The magnitude of the explosion was truly awesome
The Mont Blanc vanished, parts of her landing over 5 km away
2000 dead, 9000 injured, 6000 left homeless, and 25,000 without adequate shelter. Over 12,000 buildings were damaged and 1630 destroyed
the blast knocked items off shelves 100 km away
and was heard over 350 km away.
Now I'd say this is not likely to be any worse (and probably not as bad) however if it were even a fraction of the devastation of the Halifax explosion it would still be a huge disaster.
source: http://www.foothills-sar.ab.ca/TOMLone.html#Halif
Go here. For more specifics about the offshore explosion hazard click here.
(Note: site doesn't appear to work well in Firefox)
Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
What to do if over a kiloton of unstable explosives reside near your town:
Move.
You're welcome!
Largest ever non-nuclear blast has already occured.
Does that sentence make anyone elses head hurt? Of course it has occured. That may have been a big explosion, but this would then suplant that as being the largest. The thing about being the biggest/largest/tallest/longest etc of something, is that you only keep the title as long as nothing else comes along and surpasses you.
I thought that the explosion along the Siberian pipeline was the largest non-nuclear anyways.
I've just signed legislation that'll outlaw Russia forever. We'll begin bombing in five minutes.
Sorry but "London Bridge" has been moved to the suburbs of Phoenix Arizona.
Mostly true, except that Lake Havasu City is about a half day drive from Phoenix.
http://www.havasuchamber.com/lbridge.htm
What happens when explosives are stored improperly (and I can't imagine anything more improper) is the material separates. This leaves the inert material and nitroglycerine. Thats about as unstable as it gets. Nitro is bad news.
That's, of course, only the case for explosives which use nitroglycerine.
As this is WWII ordnance, we're probably not looking at any of those. Could be straight TNT, which is extremely stable, but various alkali compounds of the sort found in seawater can react with it to form a variety of compounds that are unstable to heat and impact. Could be Composition B, which is a mixture of TNT and RDX, so the same thing applies, or Comp A, which is straight RDX and a plasticizer, not so stable as Comp B. Ammonium picrate was used as a bursting charge, and is incredibly stable to shock and friction, but, again, seawater. Could also be Torpex, another popular one, and another RDX/TNT mixture. Problem with all of these is primarily the seawater environment reacting with the TNT to produce unstable products.
Nitrocellulose wasn't used in any of the common WWII high-explosives, nor was nitroglycerin; most high explosives of the day were varying mixtures of TNT, RDX, and sometimes PETN or Tetryl. Nitrocellulose isn't a high explosive at all; it doesn't detonate, it deflagrates, and the propagation of the chemical reaction through the material is below the speed of sound. What it was for, up until and probably throughout WWII, was a propellant, a replacement for gunpowder. It only explodes at all when confined; flash paper is basically straight nitrocellulose, and you can light that stuff off while holding it in your hand.
It's not a holiday for Guy Fawkes. It's a holiday that celebrates his failure and execution; he is (or rather was, I don't know many places that still do this) burned in effigy every year.
'Even experienced miners hesitate to handle old explosives. They realize that the ingredients in explosives will deteriorate with age and can detonate at the slightest touch. Many abandoned mines contain old explosives left behind when the operations closed down. Innocent looking sticks and blasting caps are potential killers. The best advice around explosives is do not touch or go near. If you find explosives, call the local sherrif's office or the Arizona State Mine Inspector. They will arrange for the safe disposal of the explosives.'
http://www.asmi.state.az.us/stayout.html
Waves get bigger as they approach land. The 3km figure however is not the size of the wave, which is actually projected to be 5m (16 foot) high. 3km is the height to which pieces of debris would be thrown.
Actually, in the case of an ASROC (anti-submarine rocket), that's exactly how it works. It's basically a missile with a torpedo attached to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASROC
There are areas in the USA with buried treasures. An upscale neighborhood (Spring Valley, Maryland) near Washington, D.C. was built on top of what used to be a World War I chemical warfare research facility operated by American University. After the war, most of the material was moved to Edgewood Arsenal. In recent years, people have found buried containers of mustard gas, lewisite and misc. unexploded ordnance.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
The destruction of ripple rock to clear a safe passage for shipping holds that title. 1375 tons of explosives going off about 10 feet underwater. It rattled windows 65 miles away. There's an article here .
There is, however, a considerable amount of UXO in the coastal waters of the US, remnants of U-boats brought down. Any good navigational chart of New York Harbor, for instance, has many sites marked as "unexploded ordinance" or "sunken U-boat". To be fair, I believe the total tonnage is still way lower than the Brits or French (or, I suspect, Germans) have to worry about.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Actually it might be a blessing if it did happen.
If you want to know more about the dubious joys of living on the isle of Sheppey (on which Sheerness is located) then you can find out at the most excellent Isle of Sheppey tourists guide.
Humorous signatures are over-rated.
Find out about my new childrens book: SS Death Camp Criminal Batallion Go To Monte Carlo For The Massacre
Actually, Port Chicago has been made a national memorial:
http://www.nps.gov/poch/index.htm
A pretty big deal actually was made of the explosion; there was a full board of inquiry and it did result in some procedural changes to the way ammunition was handled, as well as the reduction, still in 1944, of the number of blacks at ammunition depots reduced to 30% of staff. At Port Chicago, all of the loaders were black, only the officers were white.
Shamefully, the handful loaders who survived were court-martialed for mutiny because they refused to load ammunition until safety changes were made. While they were released from prison in 1946, well short of the long sentences they were given, that doesn't change the wrong that was done to them.
More info on Port Chicago is here:
http://www.usmm.org/portchicago.html
We don't have the technology to generate a nearly 2 mile high wave, accidentally or otherwise. That's greater than earthquake generated tsunami, it would probably take an asteroid strike in deep ocean to create that.
Having said that, 16ft would be enough to cause a compete disaster to the town. There is no need to exaggerate.
The last image on this page http://www.tuesdaynightclub.co.uk/Tour_01/Medplus2 .html e ry.html
shows what can be seen above water in context, including the proximity to the shipping channel.
A closer image can be found here http://www.gnometech.freeserve.co.uk/html/montgom
The top image says 'present' but lines etc. are still in place so I think it was taken some time ago http://www.ronangel.demon.co.uk/
A map showing the location http://www.submerged.co.uk/monty%205%20big.jpg
How the wreck lies http://www.submerged.co.uk/monty%204%20big.jpg
(Sorry to post as AC - I didn't register yet.)
Cluster bombs based on a spring-loaded collection of small bomblets were used for delivering both HE and incendiary charges in WW2.
I live in a dutch town (Nijmegen) that was destroyed by US bombers, partially using cluster-bombs, in August 1944. Over 800 Dutch were killed and zero Germans. The attack was an accident when several aircraft could not find their primary target in the industrialised area of Germany. The resulting fires attracted other 'geographically-embarassed' aircraft....
I'm certainly glad I don't live in Sheerness though !
Hmmm you might actually be on to someting. Freezing it would tend to make it more stable but not absolutely safe. Just a bit safer. Perhaps safe enough to deal with. Using ROVs from a safe distance. The Isle of Sheppey is a sheite hole by all accounts and some urban renewal might not go unwelcomed by many in the U.K. as has been noted it many post to this article.
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
yep, they just dont build things the way they used to
The Liberty ships were designed with one goal in mind: build ships faster than the German Uboat force could sink them. And they succeeded! The Liberty ships were assembled (from pre-manufractured components) by mostly unskilled labour on the shipyards of Henry J. Kaiser within only 80 hours! On these shipyards, 140 Liberty ships per month would be completed.
The Liberty ships were never built to last. Their quality was rather poor. Definately not up to todays standards in shipbuilding.
--- The light at the end of the tunnel is probably a burning truck.
My guess for the current title is Halifax (Canada, during WWI) when an ammo ship collided with another ship in the harbour, and levelled much of the city. I remember reading about a piece of the anchor being found several kilometres (yeah that's right - metric) away. Here's a link http://www.cbc.ca/halifaxexplosion/
That was the easiest registration to bypass. Article text:
Story on lost hydrogen bomb presents no threat to national security
BY ELSA MCDOWELL
Public Editor
In 1958, a damaged U.S. Air Force bomber dropped a hydrogen bomb in a sound about 20 miles from downtown Savannah after the bomber collided with a fighter plane.
The Air Force searched for the unexploded bomb for a few months and declared it lost.
Now, two men believe they have located the bomb under the mud in shallow waters near Tybee Island and are anxious lest terrorists might also find it, also. They have raised the question of whether the government should try to retrieve the bomb.
Reporter Tony Bartelme told the nuclear mystery story in a front-page feature last Sunday. Two readers criticized The Post and Courier for publishing a story that they feared could lead terrorists to a ready stash of weapons-grade uranium or worse.
One reader said, "I would think this would be a very secretive matter -- if not for CIA, certainly for Homeland Security."
"That's one point of doing the story," Bartelme said. As did the reader, the story raised the question about whether and how the government should be involved in this situation -- a situation that is not a secret at all. Bartelme reported on the scholarly debate about whether the bomb offers a threat of a nuclear explosion. He reported that the Air Force says it is safe and that others question why, if it is safe, it is not dug up.
He quoted some who want the bomb retrieved and others who want it left alone. The reason Bartelme decided to write about the bomb was that it was a good tale which had been reported locally but not very well. Some recent stories in national publications were a disappointment to him.
Over the course of about three weeks, Bartelme checked public records; interviewed respected investigators who had researched the Tybee Island bomb; tracked down the pilots who were involved in the incident back in 1958; sought out the perspective of the Air Force; and questioned scientists.
Bartelme said he was careful not to sensationalize the story and he is confident that his story did not compromise national security.
First, all the information he found was available to anyone who asked for it, he said. He did not get information from classified sources. A terrorist would be able to find the same information he did -- much of it on-line.
Second, it is highly unlikely that a terrorist could conduct a search and retrieve uranium from the bomb without being detected. The alleged site is very close to the beach. People are watching the area. Bartelme also said that, as with the search for the Hunley off the coast of Sullivan's Island, searchers have to expect to spend lots of time. Finding it requires the researchers be exactly on it -- not even 10 feet away.
The story only reported the facts. The course of action is really up to the Air Force. If the bomb is a dud, there would be no need to worry about it being retrieved by terrorists. If the Air Force has doubts about whether it is a dud, it is up to the government to proceed with keeping it out of the hands of terrorists.
"But I'm still right here, giving blood and keeping faith. And I'm still right here."
Most WWII bombs used nitro based explosives. It was cheap, simple and effective. No one knew that the leftovers would be stored for use later. There was no planning for something like this or for the thousands of duds that still get found throughout Europe. TNT is nitro based and when exposed to temprature extremes (improperly stored) it becomes as unstable as any other nitro product.
As for Nitrocellulose only exploding when confined. What do you think a bomb casing is, if not confinement?
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
And, in fact, the original design would split in half without warning. The remedy was to install a steel collar around the entire ship. So much for quality. Very few people talk about quality, or lack thereof, in the Liberty Ships, but as the other poster noted the quality was not necessary to achieve the ships' intended purpose.
Kris
Kriston
The OP's 4,800 tons of ANFO probably beats your 5,035 tons of various ordnance. The majority of your figure is probably bomb casings which, being made of steel, weigh significantly more then the explosives within them.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Halfiax Explosion Municipal Information Site. CBC Halifax Explosion Info Site.
....
From the first article:
"Around eight that morning, the Belgian relief ship Imo left its mooring in Bedford Basin and headed for open sea. At about the same time, the French ship Mont Blanc was heading up the harbour to moor, awaiting a convoy to accompany her across the Atlantic. A convoy was essential; this small, barely seaworthy vessel was carrying a full cargo of explosives. Stored in the holds, or simply stacked on deck, were 35 tons of benzol, 300 rounds of ammunition, 10 tons of gun cotton, 2,300 tons of picric acid (used in explosives), and 400,000 pounds of TNT."
"The Mont Blanc drifted by a Halifax pier, brushing it and setting it ablaze. Members of the Halifax Fire Department responded quickly, and were positioning their engine up to the nearest hydrant when the Mont Blanc disintegrated in a blinding white flash, creating the biggest man-made explosion before the nuclear age. It was 9:05am.
Over 1,900 people were killed immediately; within a year the figure had climbed well over 2,000. Around 9,000 more were injured, many permanently; 325 acres, almost all of north-end Halifax, were destroyed.
Much of what was not immediately levelled burned to the ground, aided by winter stockpiles of coal in cellars. As for the Mont Blanc, all 3,000 tons of her were shattered into little pieces that were blasted far and wide. The barrel of one of her cannons landed three and a half miles away; part of her anchor shank, weighing over half a ton, flew two miles in the opposite direction. Windows shattered 50 miles away, and the shock wave was even felt in Sydney, Cape Breton, 270 miles to the north-east."
TNT is most definitely not nitroglycerin. Where the hell do you people come up with this stuff?
TNT is trinitrotoluene, otherwise known as C6H2(NO2)3CH3, or 2,4,6-trinitromethylbenzene.
Nitroglycerine is otherwise known as C3H5N3O9, or 1,2,3-Tris-nitrooxy-propane.
Nitroglycerine is prepared by nitrating glycerine. TNT is prepared by nitrating toluene. They are two very different molecules, with very different properties.
I fucking love when people repeat as truth completely inaccurate information, without even the merest thought they might be spouting bullshit. I swear, some days I'm not sure whether I'm reading Slashdot or Fark.
Most WWII bombs used nitro based explosives.
Only in the sense that most high explosives are nitrogen compounds. Most WWII bombs did not, in fact, use nitroglycerin, or explosives based upon nitroglycerin. Go look it up, I'll wait.
Torpex is RDX, TNT, and powdered aluminum. Tetrytol is Tetryl and TNT. Picratol is picric acid and TNT. Pentolite is PETN and TNT. Octol is HMX and TNT. Minol is TNT, ammonium nitrate, and aluminum. Amitol is TNT and ammonion nitrate. Comp A is RDX and a plasticizer. Comb B is TNT, RDX, and wax. Baronol is TNT, barium nitrate, and aluminum powder. The PTX family is RDX, tetryl or PETN, and TNT.
Those are the major explosives used during WWII. Not a single one has nitoglycerin in it.
As for Nitrocellulose only exploding when confined. What do you think a bomb casing is, if not confinement?
There is a tremendous difference between an explosive and a high explosive. Even black powder will explode when confined, but black powder never, ever detonates. You can make a pipe bomb out of match heads, but nobody who knows anything would describe matches as a high explosive. High explosives detonate, meaning that the reaction front propagates through the material supersonically. Low-order explosives don't do that, they simply deflagrate, burn rapidly. Nobody in their right mind would use a low-order explosive like nitrocellulose in a bomb, not when anything more suitable was available.
I repeat: neither nitroglycerin nor nitrocellulose were routinely used as bomb fill in WWII. I won't rule out some Yugoslavian partisan group maybe mixing up some guncotton and using it in makeshift mortars, but that's about all it would have been used for.
Largest I don't know but there have been others.
In 1917 on December 6th the freighters Mont-Blanc (France in-bound) and the IMO (Norway out-bound) collided in the Halifax harbor. The Mount-Blanc was carrying ordance and the explosion took out the harbor.
The ship Gandcamp was on fire in Texas City with a cargo of ammonium nitrate on April 16 1947 when it blew up- very messy to say the least.
It would looklike it's not a good idea to have a ship full of high explosives go off, 60 years old or not. They have a VERY big problem!
God bless who ever has to work on clearing that ship out.