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UN Supports OSS/Free Software In Developing World

headisdead writes "This BBC report has details of the IOSN's (International Open Source Network) role in yesterday's Software Freedom Day. As the article rightly points out, the economic potential of these new markets for large tech corporations like MS makes this a real battle in the making. Question is, can Free Software really stem the tide when other sustainal development projects are struggling so much?"

38 of 239 comments (clear)

  1. Money by Orgazmus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This all comes down to money.
    How can you compete against free, when the customers have little or no money.
    A school in an underdeveloped country buys 100 old PCs.
    Would you use 100 licenced copies of XP, or just download a linux iso for free?

    --
    The system had the verbosity of HTML combined with all the readability of compiled assembly viewed as bitmap images
    1. Re:Money by Scarblac · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The big players, like Microsoft, can use pressure form their government.

      Use MS software, or you won't get as much aid money.

      --
      I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
    2. Re:Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that they are actually downloading windows for free in many of these markets.

      Despite all their whining about software piracy I'm pretty sure that MS is delighted about this. There is even some quote by Bill Gates saying that he doesn't have a problem with that as long as the people pirate MS software, but I'm to lazy to google for it.

      To say it the slashdot troll way:
      1. Let people pirate your software
      2. Be the dominant player in yet an other market
      3. Now start to campaign for stricter intellectual property laws in these countries.
      4. Profit. ;-D

    3. Re:Money by Riktov · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Would you use 100 licenced copies of XP, or just download a linux iso for free? Neither. They would use 100 pirated copies of XP.

    4. Re:Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except, since they're probably using donated equipment that may be five years old there's no way they can expect to get anyhwere with XP. So, they're probably using Knoppix or Damn Small Linux and thinking damn if this stuff is so great that XP must be some real fancy shit.
      Imagine their disappointment when they finally get a chance to see it.

    5. Re:Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Hmmm... pirated copies...

      ...without any kind of support, without the possibility to install patches like SP2 and with a large amount of viruses and worms that exploit the holes

      ...of an OS that requires state-of-the-art hardware

      ...of an OS that has no i18n-support for lesser known languages and no possibility localize it (remember: not everybody speaks English)

    6. Re:Money by jkrise · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To say it the slashdot troll way:
      1. Let people pirate your software ...etc.


      If this is true, I think Microsoft has lesser intelligence than the average Slashdot troll. Bcos, between steps 3 and 4, MS has made their newer versions more daunting to use, and less of a value for the software pirate.

      There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that a home user can't do with Win98 which XP allows him to do. And yet, XP crawls under 128MB on a PIII whereas '98 runs okay on a Pentium with 16MB RAM. The latter is the kind of system most 3rd world users get in hand-me-downs or aid agencies or whatever. MS has made pirating their latest versions useless for such people.

      In another 5 years, I'd imagine there will be more pirated Win 98 systems than genuine Windows LongHorn or ShortShrift users. It really indicates there's little innovation at MS for the common user.

      -

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    7. Re:Money by Alain+Williams · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The trouble is that a modern Linux desktop also crawls under 128MB on a PIII. I regret to say that the Linux desktops are suffering as much from bloat as does MS.

      Serverwise: the bloat does not seem to have hit - fortunately.

      Should we send a request to Muguel & KDE leads to mandate that their developers should use 64MB PIIs as their desktop machine? It would result it usable systems on old machines and take Linux users off the hardware upgrade treadmill.

    8. Re:Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, China signed 12 years ago, and look how well that's gone.

    9. Re:Money by ImaLamer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The trouble is that a modern Linux desktop also crawls under 128MB on a PIII. I regret to say that the Linux desktops are suffering as much from bloat as does MS.

      I don't use Slackware personally but a quick check of their website shows me that they host versions going back to 3.3.

      I'm sure most major distributions have their past versions out there somewhere. You may have to use an FTP searching site to find them but they are out there. RedHat 7.3 your favorite? It's out there. Even Caldera "Open Desktop" is out there. (Or I can send you a copy, take that SCO!)

      The beautiful thing about linux is two-fold. First you can create your own "distribution" based on what you need. (Plus, there are plenty of slim distributions out there, many working off of floppies or compact discs) The second thing is this; they can't stop you from distributing it further once you get your hands on it and they can't stop you from forking your own from a version.

      There is no need to stay attached to one distribution, you can create your own. A developing country can do just that. As computer use rises they can use students or enthusiasts to create a custom distribution for their country. Not only does it solve their problems but it also can help as a teaching tool when it comes to the basics of computer science.

      That is the good thing about free software, you can do what you want with it - no one can stop you from doing what you want to do with it. I'm sure there are good quotes on this in "Free as In Freedom", which I'm looking at now on my bookshelf, but I'm too lazy to look them up.

    10. Re:Money by Bloater · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is the contribution to worldwide environmental damage due to the accelerated End-Of-Lifing of products that are otherwise good for 15 years. Products that contain large quantities of heavy metals that are not normally present in topsoil and freshwater.

      IMHO we need to start designing application software like OpenOffice and Mozilla for clusters and get those old 486s shipped out to schools in developing countries. The bonus is more robust, cheaper solutions for the western coporate markets.

  2. A fundamental question.. by jkrise · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What role does the UN play in deciding what type of software gets used / bought in the World? Is the UN a sort of marketing organisation? Does the UN make no distinction between promoting democracy and promoting capitalism?

    -

    --
    If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    1. Re:A fundamental question.. by alphan · · Score: 4, Insightful
      your point being?

      what is the relation between recommending FOSS and promoting capitalism?

      UN should help nations, especially developing ones.

      Clearly communication and computers are important parts of development process. What is wrong with suggesting a cheap way?

    2. Re:A fundamental question.. by jkrise · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sometime ago Kofi Annan was suggesting that 3rd World nations could 'leapfrog' into WiFi notebooks! (running Windows). Entities such as the UN cannot be relied for their knowledge on technical matters and software.

      A better role which the UN could play would be to fight against software patents etc.

      -

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    3. Re:A fundamental question.. by Teun · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What role does the UN play in deciding what type of software gets used / bought in the World? Is the UN a sort of marketing organisation? You don't get it.
      As an impartial Global organisation they help with knowledge and training.
      A lot of developing nations see the UN as a valuable aide on their way to a better future.
      MS and the likes have their own sales teams all over the place, the Peoples Alternatives, eg. FOSS, are often not known with the decision makers but do deserve consideration where money is tight.
      The nature of FOSS development is an other reason why 3rd. world nations might want to concider it, it can realy be a grass roots sytem where local needs can be met by local developpers.

      Does the UN make no distinction between promoting democracy and promoting capitalism?
      Weird question, one does not exclude the other!

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    4. Re:A fundamental question.. by ctr2sprt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't want this to turn into a diatribe against the UN, but don't ever mistake it for a neutral, impartial, or unbiased agency. That's the exact opposite of what it is. It's more like the sum of all the biases and partisanship in the entire world, and it just happens that most of them cancel each other out via all the elaborate balances in the system.

  3. Diversity by bioglaze · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hope this will increase the use of free standards like Ogg Vorbis, XViD, PNG etc and it is only healthy to have many different operating systems.

    --
    Who is John Galt?
  4. Developing countries and OSS by PingKing · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It certainly won't be easy for free software in these developing countries, especially considering how inexperienced with computers many of the users will be. Love it or hate it, any idiot can use Windows.

    It's certainly an oppurtunity to introduce many new people to the Free Software philosophy. This can only be a good thing and give MS cause for concern. in these new markets.

    --

    Patriotism - the last resort of scoundrels.
    1. Re:Developing countries and OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Love it or hate it, any idiot can use Windows."

      *Sigh*
      No, he can't. Look at the millions of infected PCs, just work one day at a help desk for normal users and you will know that most people are not able to use Windows.

      P.S.: Just because a lot of idiots use Windows doesn't mean any idiot can use it. Btw., I know a lot of idiots using Linux, what does that tell us?

    2. Re:Developing countries and OSS by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ``It certainly won't be easy for free software in these developing countries, especially considering how inexperienced with computers many of the users will be. Love it or hate it, any idiot can use Windows.''

      Dude, take of your blinders! Icons are just as easy to click in X11 as they are in Explorer. A system that just keeps working is easier than one that crashes and gets infected. And don't forget the benefit of a real command line (typing is more intuitive than moving a pointer with a mouse in a different plane).

      Windows is only easier to use if you're more used to it, so especially for people inexperienced with computers, Linux is at least as easy.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  5. Back to the roots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Isn't empowering people one of the main ideas of free software? So giving people that until now had no means to use modern information systems the opportunity to finally participate is great and somehow at the heart of the free software movement.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that Linux (or rather GNU/Linux) is making inroads in corporate environments and has a lot of backing from big business like IBM, HP, etc., but I sometimes got the impression that the most important idea behind free software, giving the people means to make more of their lives, somehow slipped into the background recently.

    So in this sense this is really going back to the roots of free software and that's a good thing.

    1. Re:Back to the roots by 808140 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nowadays, computers are really rather like telephones -- they are tools that facilitate communication. With a working IT infrastructure, hospitals can be networked, allowing doctors to transfer medical data relevant to patients to specialists at home and abroad, and they have access to a great deal of the world's information. And these days, thanks to FOSS and Moore's Law, "good-enough" computers can be had on the cheap.

      Your post is essentially like saying, "What do they need telephones for? They still have problems feeding themselves!", as if having the former were a prerequisite for having the latter. Economic investment results in economic growth, which betters the lives of the common people.

      Problems should be attacked in parallel, not sequentially.

  6. Not so by DigiShaman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would say Bill Gates doesn't mind. In fact, he might even give away a special edition of Window just so he "indoctrinate" the youth and thus lead that generation to the life of Microsoft. Think about it. Once your a Windows user, most people stay that way. But if you started off using Mac, then that will be your religious..err..I mean..user friendly path in life.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
  7. F/OSS Won't Save The World by reallocate · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The primary advantage of F/OSS compared with proprietary software is that it can be acquired without cost. That's a big advantage. Once acquired, though, very real costs are incurred in installing, training, and maintaining. Sys admins do not work for free, regardless of the development model used by their OS.

    Microsoft could, presumably, reduce the cost advantage of F/OSS by cutting the price of Windows. While the loss of potential revenue would be large in countries as populous as India or China, it would be much easier to absorb in small countries like Bhutan, Lesotho, or Gambia.

    The consequence is that MS is in a position to make Windows cheaper to acquire, and, potentially, to reduce the cost of support it provides directly. F/OSS, on the other hand, cannot reduce the acquisition cost of its products and has no real control over the cost of support.

    Many Western eyes typically fail to see the differences throughout the underdeveloped world. Some nations have a burgeoning IT sector and a veneer of prosperity riding atop massive poverty. Opprtunities for indivudal economic success are present in some countries, while in others opportunity is stifled by ideology or religion, corruption, and incompetence.

    Many nations cannot (or do not care enough to) provide their populations with safe drinking water, minimal health care, and sufficient caloric intake. Rather than conjuring visions of besting Microsoft in these markets, the F/OSS community would be of better service if it conjured ways to use its products to enable these nations to tackle those more pressing problems.

    --
    -- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
    1. Re:F/OSS Won't Save The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "The primary advantage of F/OSS compared with proprietary software is that it can be acquired without cost."

      No, the real advantage of F/OSS as you call it is that it can actually be acquired. You can't acquire Windows, you can only get a license to use it.

      Now why does this matter? Because the open source model gives a lot of countries a far better opportunity to develop their own IT infrastructure then Windows will ever be able to do. That is probably the main reason why countries like China and South Africa are so interested in open source software.

      "Many nations cannot (or do not care enough to) provide their populations with safe drinking water, minimal health care, and sufficient caloric intake. Rather than conjuring visions of besting Microsoft in these markets, the F/OSS community would be of better service if it conjured ways to use its products to enable these nations to tackle those more pressing problems."

      And the community does. Believe it or not but there are many projects that are working exactly in this field.

    2. Re:F/OSS Won't Save The World by vadim_t · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And your point is?

      I've been to a very interesting conference by (IIRC), Marcelo Branco about Free Software in Brasil at HispaLinux.

      He very convincingly explained, that Free Software *does* help. In countries that aren't filthy rich, the Microsoft tax is actually very significant, and makes a lot of money go to Microsoft instead of being used for something useful. When Brasil buys thousands of Windows licenses, that's millions that are going to Microsoft, instead of the local industry.

      The mistake you seem to be commiting is the same as the people who say we shouldn't explore space before we solve poverty on earth. Well, I've got some news for you.

      Many of those things are related. Of course, Free Software won't save the world. However, if we get countries to switch to Free Software, they'll stop sending money to Microsoft and instead use it to feed their own computer scientists.

    3. Re:F/OSS Won't Save The World by 808140 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My sibling posts say the same thing I'm going to: the true advantage of Free Software is freedom. But let me explain why.

      Microsoft is seen worldwide as a very successful American corporation. This is not surprising, because, well, it is. Many countries (China in particular) are nervous about allowing an American corporation to control their IT infrastructure with so many little black boxes.

      The Chinese government did not choose to move towards OSS because it likes Linux's interface more, or because it costs less than MS. It's moving in that direction because Linux, and all free software, is trustworthy. Cost doesn't factor in. With Linux, they have an enterprise level operating system that scales to absurd numbers of processors that can be audited and modified. A starting point, if you will. They know there are no backdoors because they can take a look.

      Microsoft and Sun and most of the big guys offer "Shared Source" like systems that seem to offer the same deal, but it isn't the same at all. Because while you're welcome to take a look at the source, you're not free to change it. And with a vendor comes vendor lock-in; for example, suppose the Chinese government buys MS's bit and goes for Windows instead of Linux, using MS's shared source initiative as a means to "look through" the code. They do this, and build their entire infrastructure on MS solutions. Write their documents in Word. Etc. After a few years of this, MS could just stop offering the Shared Source initiative. Stop allowing their code to be audited. And by then, the Chinese gov't is screwed, big time. They know they should dump MS, but they can't; their whole country runs on the stuff, depends on its proprietary formats, etc.

      But Linux will always be free. There is no evil American corporation controlling it, possibly putting backdoors into its software to steal your most precious secrets. Because its source is open and documented, there can be no format lock-in.

      For foreign governments with no reason to trust the US or anything that comes out of it, the fact that Linux is free as in freedom, rather than free as in cost, is the true selling point.

      As an aside, your point about Linux requiring sysadmins, support (and thus actually costing money and not being truly for-free) etc is a non-starter. This is trivially true of all software. Microsoft/Sun/etc software also have maintenance and support costs. Unless you're saying that the cost of obtaining MS/Sun/etc software PLUS the cost of maintaining it over a long period of time is lower than just the cost of maintaining a free system, you have no point. If you are saying that, it's just MS's "lower TCO" argument in disguise, which has been dissected here a million times and which not many of us believe, so I won't bother ripping into it.

    4. Re:F/OSS Won't Save The World by Alioth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you're missing his point. Of course it costs something to support. But with Microsoft software, you are spending $BIGNUM_LICENSING acquiring + $BIGNUM_SUPPORT supporting. With Free software you're only spending $BIGNUM_SUPPORT and not sending the equivalent of $BIGNUM_LICENSING overseas.

      Even if $FREE_SOFTWARE_SUPPORT costs as much as $BIGNUM_SUPPORT + $BIGNUM_LICENSING (which is unlikely), all that money is staying *within your country* instead of leaving it because the people doing the extra support are all part of your local economy.

    5. Re:F/OSS Won't Save The World by vadim_t · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, you managed to miss it. Let me try again.

      Option A:
      Brasil pays Microsoft for Windows, Office and tech support.
      Result: money goes to MS, which is in the US

      Option B:
      Brasil pays less to a local Linux distro for the packaging and support.
      Result: money goes citizens of Brasil

      Yes, both options cost money. However, with option B it's somebody in Brasil who gets paid, instead of MS getting richer.

      Why option B overall costs less? Because Brasil only needs to pay for what it really needs to be well supported. Citizens can get Linux for free, with the result of having more money for buying food or something else. Schools can have it for free if they want. And the ones who pay, benefit the local economy.

      You also seem to ignore that wages are much lower in some places. My aunt, who works as a university teacher in Russia earned somewhere about $100 US a month the last time I asked. Now, doesn't the price of Windows seem to be rather significant when that's your wage?

      See?

  8. Developing countries get a head start by erik_norgaard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think that the developing countries in this area have a real advantage: Since the dependency of IT in the public sector is far behind the industrial countries, they have not been locked in! They have the full freedom to choose without having to consider huge migration costs.

    Microsoft is aware of this, I guess that's why they have made light versions available in some asian countries and are planning to sell this product in more countries. Also, they will probably benefit from the lockin due to software piracy.

    Even if pirate copies are available, or Microsoft offers software for free, there are numerous examples of developing countries taking a step in direction of OSS. They have seen the long term consequences of M$ lockin.

    1. Re:Developing countries get a head start by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What you describe is a well known phenomena of technology generation skipping. As a society develops it often jumps to the very latest tech from nothing at all instead of going through all the historical stages inbetween. For instance Portugal has one of the finest telephone systems in europe, but outside of Lisbon it virtualy appeared overnight by line of sight microwave and satellite coms, they had no huge copper legacy to factor into the economics. We are getting to a stage where development is so fast that we see a development inertia caused by the weight of vested interests in established tech which is already obsoleted. That is to say, your choices are restricted more by what you already have than by what is is possible or imaginable. The Microsoft case is just one example.

  9. FOSS makes a difference by Elektroschock · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Question is, can Free Software really stem the tide when other sustainal development projects are struggling so much?"

    Yes, it can. OSS development models can also solve problems where traditional development can't. Such as: localized software for non-latin languages.

    Another great potential use of free software could happen in the field of maschine translation.

    1. Re:FOSS makes a difference by 808140 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Well, to be pedantic, other software development models can (and have) been able to overcome such barriers as localized software for non-european languages (I presume when you said non-latin you really meant languages that use a non-latin script; English, in particular, is non-latin, so you can't have actually meant non-latin).

      There's nothing stopping most corporations from supporting languages like Chinese and Thai except laziness, pure and simple. OSS has had the edge in this arena for two reasons:
      1. No profit motive. It has classically not been profitable to support languages spoken in third world countries, or in countries where the population was relatively small. Because OSS developers don't care about money (usually), this doesn't matter.
      2. Developed over the internet in an open way. This has allowed developers speaking minority languages to "scratch their itch" and localize apps they use frequently. In a corporate model, this doesn't work because a) techies hired in Europe or the US don't usually completely understand the complexities of non-roman scripts, etc. and b) closed source means that translation by users has not generally been feasible.
      Consider though: for point 1, a profit motive is developing. China, India, Thailand, etc are actually becoming markets that software companies care about being a part of, if only to keep Linux and OSS from getting a hold there.

      For point 2, outsourcing is guaranteeing that there are lots of folks in the third world collaborating closely with company in question, meaning that access to native speakers of problem languages is becoming less of a problem. It's not just outsourcing, it's globalization as a whole.

      In my opinion, the corps will never be able to compete with Free Software on the localization front, because all it takes to get a free program localized is someone annoyed enough by it not being. Still, the lead we have right now on the important languages will probably be closed. We'll still win when it comes to software available in Twi, Esperanto, Breton, and other "minority" languages, but you can bet that the corps aren't going to let us have China and India without a fight.

      Of course, even if they fight, we'll still win.
  10. Ease of use - anecdote by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A friend's daughter (13 years old) was at our house this weekend, and wanted to "play on the computer", which is loaded with straight-up Debian.

    She watched me click on the menus to pull up a couple of games, and then she was good to go. She played and had a good time all afternoon, exploring the selection of games (Frozen Bubbles and Defenguin were her favorites).

    Her comment at the end of the day was "you sure have a cool computer to play on". I think inexperience actually -helps-, as there is nothing to unlearn. Clicking on icons is clicking on icons, I have watched a lot of people sit down on my Deb system and just start "doing stuff". I have noticed that the hard-core Windows users have the hardest time, but the casual users really have no problem.

    --
    A house divided against itself cannot stand.
  11. gates roi by mattr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Bill Gates has donated perhaps $1G but his organization's attempts to lock in countries is worth much more.. and possibly his donations support that. Developing countries have 2 needs - they need to satisfy potentially destructive political realities, and once they've gotten beyond that they need to best leverage their assets to develop their future. If a country is being given official aid, so long as there is a viable free alternative (or lower cost when tco calculated), commercial interests have no business selling to them. Even giving it away for free is bad if it is done by a known rapacious monopoly, and risky even if done by other companies with lock-in tactics, for what is then really going on is a bargaining away of that country's potential, either by hapless individuals or far more likely, someone who intends to make a profit. Of course if Gates wants to invest a cool billion in cash altruistically that is another story. Perhaps a story we'd like to hear.. how do organizations in fact organize that level of giving and make sure it goes to good use? How can we believe Gates is altruistic when his company is the corporate equivalent of a gang-backed serial killer?

  12. The emporer is fully unclothed! by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My point about support costs, as I said, is that MS is in a postion to both lower the cost of acquiring its software and of lowering the cost of buying its support, if it chooses to do that. The free software community cannot do that, because its product is already free and it provides no direct support.

    I am getting so tired of hearing this old canard.

    I spend a lot of time supporting commercial software, and I support my own FOSS system, so I think I am in a position to argue this.

    Commercial software support (even paid support) in general is no better than FOSS support. In fact, FOSS support is usually better. If you know how to ask, you can usually at least get a dialog with the actual developer of a FOSS product. If he says "fix it yourself", you can usually get someone with the capability to fix/enhance it at a fraction of the cost of a commercial support contract that doesn't provide anything beyond idiot help desk stuff. With a commercial product, you usually get the outsourced idiot help line, or even with a company that keeps that in house, you get third-line lackeys who can't/won't give you the straight story or real support. And customization? No comparison, with commercial software, this is a pipe dream, with FOSS, it is a concrete possibility.

    My experience with developing countries is that there are a lot of young, smart people who are eager to do the coding that needs to be done. These countries don't have the resources to put into the abstracted RIP-OFF that most commercial "support" actually is.

    --
    A house divided against itself cannot stand.
  13. Re:new software markets by Secret+Agent+X23 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It's your choice: improve the economy of the US by selling software to new foreign markets and maintain the success and standard of living that the US enjoys, or give it away for free and see other countries begin to take the lead.

    If the U.S. economy depends on selling Windows to third-world nations, we have far worse problems than even the deepest, darkest pessimist could ever have imagined.

  14. UN support means nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Who cares if UN support free software if this organization is mostly a toothless authority who can't really do much to punish nations violating human rights, with decision making being dominated by US government and multinational corporations, and with 5 countries always hogging the UN security council seats just because they are winners of WWII? If UN can't even do simple things such as stopping Rwanda massacre or making the councils more accountable to everyone in the world, support of OSS/Free Software by UN is meaningless in reality.