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ATI Updates Linux Drivers
GraWil writes "Famed graphics card maker and documented Linux supporter ATI has refreshed its proprietary Linux drivers (3.11.1) for the Radeon and FireGL series cards. Unfortunately, many of the previous comments still apply and it seems that ATI is not yet committed to supporting Linux well. The procedure for installing is now documented in a separate how-to but it seems that quite a few are stuck in an endless cycle of compiling kernels with/without DRI/AGPGART/RADEON/DBE (insert random module here). For those with strong enough feelings, ATI is seeking feedback on these drivers."
The article starts off: documented Linux supporter ATI. And then goes on to say: ATI is not yet committed to supporting Linux well.
So which is it?
When you get to hell -- tell 'em Itchy sent ya!
Maybe ATi just plain don't know how to make decent X/Linux drivers? A graphics card manufacturer like ATi would not traditionally hire people with relevent experience, and I doubt they can justify the expense of hiring a specialist to do nothing but create Linux drivers.
Of course, Open Source could help them here, but we all know the arguments for and against that.
The nVidia installer is GPLd, they could use that rather than writing a huge howto. I guess ATI using software from nVidia would be a bit uncomfortable for them though ...
If enough people leave the right kind of feedback, those drivers will be made open source.
There are just a few followers in management who think we need to follow NVidia's business model. They are wrong.
I use the ones provided with XFree86 and/or from DRI. Runs like a charm. I don't bother with those binaries at all.
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I am not the only one who is either thinking about or has already switched to Nvidia just because of the drivers.
I have been waiting for a year for proper drivers for Linux but as they still have not materialized the next card will be Nvidia, no question about that.
I got an idea: How about some 64-bit drivers. I'm sick and tired of my AMD64 3400+ having a GL refresh rate of a dead dog, or having to run it in 32-bit mode
(Which I refuse to do. I got 64-bits, I'm using them damnit. If I wanted to run a 32-bit OS, I'd run windows)
I'll believe that when my crappy Radeon supports 3D and my TV tuner at the same time.
If ATI's drivers don't cut it for you, this project has been helping out for a long time.
Tech News, Reviews and Tutorials
I can't be bothered buying their cards. I have used ATI boards since 1987. I have owned the EGA Wonder 800, VGA Wonder, Mach8 accelerator (a Win 3.1 accelerator!), Rage chipset boards, Radeons from 7000-9000. Since I ran into a Linux brick wall with them (no specs, no binary drivers) my last two purchases have been Nvidia. I recommend the same for you if you use Linux.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
These drivers aren't new, they are out almost a month now and they suck just as much as every ATi driver before... I don't want a HOWTO to install a friggin' driver, I want to type ./install, restart the Xserver and have great framerates.
Just two years ago most people despised ATI's Windows drivers as well, at least in comparison to Nvidia's. Give them time to come around, I'm sure they will.
adventure-today.com
If the user interface is nice enough, does it really matter what exact steps are taken to install the driver? Even today, you hardly realize that a recompilation is going on with nvidia drivers, as they provide a nice little progress bar. To the user, the progress bar could represent copying files, compiling them from source, or whatever, he doesn't really care.
I'm not sure the problem is with ATI.
I see no reason why the drivers cannot be binary just like on Windows. There needs to be a pragmatic approach to this, one which lets binary drivers exist with an interface that doesn't change all the time.
GPL is perfect for GNU tools and the Linux kernel, but has no place for drivers. If always enforced for drivers, then manufacturers just will never support a Linux kernel.
For example, if glibc was change from LGPL to GPL, then Linux would die overnight for commerce, and commerce is what is driving Linux into the enterprise.
before people started comparing the ATI drivers on windows vs linux..
here's my take:
I've got a laptop and a desktop, but with ATI cards in them. Setting up the video card properly on my laptop (windows) was a huge pain. It's a "mobile" card so finding the exact driver was... well.. painful. Go to HP (laptop manufact.) go to ATI, try this.. try that. Nothing worked right (often the installer would say I didn't HAVE an ATI card).
Then I went to install the ATI driver for linux (gentoo). Same problem. This driver, that driver.. big pain in the arse.
In hindsight, I would have gotten an nvidia card. I got my PVR (which also runs gentoo) and stuck my old geforce2 card in there. Not a single problem from day one getting the card to work in X... svideo out and everything worked almost flawlessly the first time (any problems I found out later were my own).
so, my take... but nvidia. they might not have the super duper fastest card all the time, but it's close enough that the saved time on driver headaches makes it well worth it.
Piss me off. Got a Dell 2001FP to work with a second machine I set up. Figured for what I needed I didn't need to get a 9600 so I went for a 9200 only to find out that for some reason the DVI output is hosed. After some googling found no one else can seem to make it work either. Not a hardware problem as it works fine in windows. Never again for ATI.....
"TV, a medium as it is neither rare nor well done." Ernie Kovacs
I knew that sometimes /. isn't exactly quick on the uptake, but these drivers first appears AUGUST FIFTH, very nearly a month ago. It really doesn't take much to get a front page posting anymore.
Hey, did you guys here about this crazy Utah company suing International Business Machines???
It's more like lack of staff, I believe. They've got something like roughly 4% as many developers doing Linux development as they do Windows developers- and these are developers dedicated to Linux driver development.
And they HAVE recently hired relevent experience- Michel Danzer just hired on out there and he's one of the DRI team's better developers. I don't know if the problems are due to them not doing something like NVidia (which is that their driver core is largely the same codebase for Linux and Windows...) or if it's that combined with the shortage of capable people working on them.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Seriously, I've been on the ATI beta testing team (although not anymore) and submitted feedback for every driver release to date.
I cannot get 3D working (2D works fine) with my 9800 pro - although exactly the same setup works fine on my old 8500 for 3D.
ATI have not responded to my emails, to my feedback, to any forum posts (although that isn't unexpected) - and this just plain sucks.
Please, if you want a 3D card in Linux, check people have the same hardware and it works if you're after an ATI card. Although only a small group of people have this issue, it is real and does exist.
Gentoo discussion
Rage 3D discussion
Quick Summary Enabling DRI causes X eat all my CPU and not start unless I have a working framebuffer.
With a working framebuffer I get screen corruption, menus and windows are not drawn properly and running any OpenGL application causes X to hang and eat all my CPU.
In both cases I can ssh into my box and kill X or the OpenGL app and I can use the box again.
The only common demoninator seems to be Asus motherboards with certain ATI cards - but the same hardware works fine for Windows XP!
Since I ran into a Linux brick wall with them (no specs, no binary drivers) my last two purchases have been Nvidia. I recommend the same for you if you use Linux.
I wouldn't. The thing is that proprietary drivers and no documentation are against the principles of F/OSS. If I had to recommend a graphics card, it would be ATI radeon 8500 which works well with Free drivers (accelerated OpenGL etc.)
If you encourage hardware companies to keep their documentation secret you will have a future where you have to use non-free drivers for all your hardware. That is a disaster from the perspective of both Open Source and Free Software movements. I would like you all to understand that the software freedom has a value and functionality is not the only meter of the goodness of software.
I updated my old ATI 7500 All in Wonder to a 9600 AIW, thinking that "ATI tries to support the community - they are releasing some specs to the DRI developers, if not for the newest boards."
/. ATI into realising that they need to support us BETTER - after all, telling people "Sorry, our drivers don't work with DirectX 9.0, you have to downgrade to DirectX 8.0" would not fly, so why should we be told to downgrade from XFree80 4.4 or Xorg to XFree86 4.3?
/. story will be, as the bard put it, ".. a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".
First, the proprietary drivers do not work with Xorg - only XFree.
Second, they will lock up solid if you are running 4K kernel stacks - you need to have 8K stacks. Ven then, while their glxgears program runs, I cannot run UT2003 - as soon as I try to launch the game the monitor shuts down and the system locks.
Third, for reasons unknown I've lost all Xv support - so video playback sucks and I can no longer access my PCHDTV card.
Fourth, GATOS and the proprietary drivers don't mix - so you cannot use the tuner section at all.
I've asked one of the ATI developers who hangs out on the DRI mailing list to push for ATI deploying a Bugzilla-like tracking system, and to support the tuner in the proprietary drivers (since all they need to do is make the tuners an Xv subsystem).
So, let us all
Of course, past experience suggests that this
www.eFax.com are spammers
Still no support for the Radeon 7500.
Gatos and DRI both provide functionality. It's not really necessary, though, the stock kmod radeon and stock Xf86 radeon drivers work.
Except for that pesky s-video port. The kernel has no trouble putting the console screen on the TV but only the VESA driver is successful for Xf86. The VESA driver isn't fast enough to watch DVDs.
Pick and choose, I've tried all the combos:
kmod: 2.4.18-2.6.7, Gatos, DRI
drivers: Xf86 4.1.0-Xf4.3.0, Gatos, DRI
Put the kmod on the x-axis and the drivers on the y-axis and make a matrix. I've tried them all. Only the VESA driver will correctly get the sync values for the s-video port with a Radeon 7500. I've tried the math to convert VESA screenmodes to modelines with no luck.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
It's actually pretty easy to get 3D working if you have an ATI Card. 1) Sell your ATI card on eBay 2) Pick up a nVidia 3) Boom! Your done. Easy! I don't see why so many people are having problems...
I had bought a 9600XT after reading several reviews that gave it outstanding marks for "fps/$." Some OpenGL apps were fine (and plenty fast), but others (notably Wine) crashed my box. Turns out the drivers were oopsing when running an SMP kernel on SMP hardware.
After reporting the (reproducable) kernel oops, I waited 7 months for the next driver release in the hopes it would be fixed. No such luck. I ditched my 9600XT and bought a GeForce 5700U - it just works.
What's sorta ironic is that the 5700U (a massive card, with a huge fan, several passive heatsyncs that requires it's own power input) is in the same "performance ballpark" on most tests (and significantly underperforms on some, like pixel shading, IIRC) as the 9600XT (a small card, with a small fan, and no passive heatsyncs).
It's a great contrast between design elegance and brute force. If ATI could write working drivers...
At least that's my theory.
I've got a Radeon 9800SE All-In-Wonder, which has the new(ish) Rage Theatre 200 chip. This isn't supported by GATOS. I should, of course, have checked this before buying the machine, but there you go. The reason it isn't supported is because it's really complicated and all though ATI have released some specs (under NDA), the GATOS developer(s) haven't gotten round to doing the huge amount of work involved in writing a driver.
I say developer(s), because I think the effort to support the Rage Theatre 200 actually consists of one bloke, called Vlad or something. I think he might be a student of some kind. This may be completely wrong, and I don't want to cause any offence, but that's the impression I've got - one single developer working on the Rage Theatre 200 driver, intermittently, as a hobby. There's been a "don't expect anything for at least 6 months" notice on the website for nearly a year.
The value of open source software is that if something is used by many people and has a long lifetime, the community can build that piece of software into something valuable for everyone, with minimal cost and maximum gain for the participants. This, at least to me, seems to be the key feature of open source.
ATI seem to have gotten the wrong end of the stick and decided that the value of the open source community is that a multi-million dollar corporation can print out a copy of it's specs, along with an NDA of some description, and as if by magic, some student, perhaps called Vlad, will appear out of thin air and do all it's work for it.
Some points for ATI:
Rant over. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the above. In fact I hereby certify that the above is guaranteed to be inaccurate in some way. Please correct me. The emotion is real, though. I'm just fed up with having to reboot into Windows to watch TV.
"The Milliard Gargantubrain? A mere abacus - mention it not."
How bout 12000+ signatures of annoyed linux users. http://www.petitiononline.com/atipet/petition.html
Also this issue and petition has been submitted to /. for 2 weeks now.
> These drivers are binary because both companies do not want to publish
> human readable details about their 3D acceleration.
Actually I suspect another culprit. ATI used to release complete hardware details under NDA to the XFree86 folks, which is why I have decent 3D support on my AMD64 machine with the last card with Open Source drivers, the Radeon 9200. DirectX9 is the dividing line. No card with DX9 support has specs available under any terms that permit an Open Source code release. So three guesses who is reponsible, especially since neither ATI nor NVidia will even discuss WHY they can't release specs. Only one entity can inspire that much fear.
Democrat delenda est