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Walmart Stored Value Cards Compromised

morcheeba writes "It appears that Walmart's pre-paid gift cards have been hacked. Customers are buying cards and finding that criminals have already emptied them of value. It seems someone has access to Walmart's database and/or registration data, and can create clones of recently activated cards. (via engadget)"

39 of 450 comments (clear)

  1. What't the penalty for this? by LeahofRivendell · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That is, in the ideal world where criminals could in no way pay off the court system with tons of stolen money

    1. Re:What't the penalty for this? by gl4ss · · Score: 4, Interesting

      * It's probably not illegal. If walmart wants to sell snapple bottlecaps for $20 and accept them in their store to buy $20, it's not anyone's problem if their scheme doesn't work as intended.*

      where do you live, in a fairytale world where comic book legal logic prevails? of course it's illegal, probably goes under fraud too and depending on how it was done maybe some misuse of power or illegal telecommunications interception.

      or perhaps you say that stolen calling cards are legal to use as well and that it's legal to use credit card numbers you found from google? and that shoplifting is legal if you just manage to get out of the store? and that hacking into a bank is legal since they put their computer on the internet and you only used public protocols? sorry but that kind of logic only gets you in jail where you'd belong if you did those things.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:What't the penalty for this? by wcdw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Stored value cards are _NOT_ the same as debit cards, in many important respects. For one, the customer CANNOT get cash from the card.

      Stored value cards are classed exactly the same as paper gift certificates, as that is what they are. (They are also subject to escheet laws in most states.)

      I was part of a small team which created the first such card - Blockbusters - and am still amazed at how fast they've proliferated.

      http://www.theboyz.biz/ - Your source for computers, parts and more!

      --
      If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
    3. Re:What't the penalty for this? by abb3w · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Stored value cards are classed exactly the same as paper gift certificates, as that is what they are.

      Possibly; however, did you read 18 USC 47 sec 1029? In particular, Subsection e.1:

      the term ''access device'' means any card, plate, code, account number, electronic serial number, mobile identification number, personal identification number, or other telecommunications service, equipment, or instrument identifier, or other means of account access that can be used, alone or in conjunction with another access device, to obtain money, goods, services, or any other thing of value, or that can be used to initiate a transfer of funds (other than a transfer originated solely by paper instrument) [Empasis added]

      Paper gift certificates, if accessable digitally by an account number, would also seem to be covered here, as well as gift cards.

      Of course, you may be right about the legal distinctions between a true stored value card and a debit card; I believe laws on refund of any remaining balance is regulated by the individual states, and rules do vary.

      --
      //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
  2. I think it's an inside job by plover · · Score: 4, Interesting
    This has to be someone hacking from the inside of Walm*rt. Maybe not an employee, but it sure looks like someone is inside their network.

    First, look at how gift cards work. Many retailers use the model where their gift card records in their database created upon activation. This means they don't even ask the manufacturers for a list of "cards printed"; they simply direct the manufacturer to produce "a million cards in this number sequence, label them $20," that sort of thing. The value is added when the record is created at issuance. I'm assuming Walm*rt is operating in a similar fashion.

    It's theoretically safe, because a shoplifted card isn't redeemable. The cards never actually "store" their value, all the value is located only in the database (more correctly, the value is in the ability to redeem from the database.)

    So, if someone is redeeming the cards in a distant state just hours after issuance, they're doing it by sniffing the data real-time, somewhere on the inside of Walm*rt's systems. The article implies that the thief knows when the card is issued, and cashes it in within hours. Cashing the cards in distant states implies network access to at least run the scam (although that may be an email to a conspirator.) The fact that the victims were located in different states implies the perpetrators either have central access to the database involved, or have access to the POS systems that are selling and activating the cards.

    The points of access are numerous. This could be happening in the POS registers, the store POS servers, the networking gear, the central authorizing servers, the central sales logging servers, or the database. It could be someone in their security group looking at electronic journals on-line. It could be a hacker in the parking lot with 802.11 gear telnetting to any of the above equipment, emailing card info to his buddies. The redemption is probably being done via "forged" cards, which might be as simple as printing a barcode on a sticker, covering the existing barcode, and then keeping the cards after redeeming them to hide the evidence. A smart thief would redeem $149 on a $150 card to keep the card with the $1 balance on it in his pocket.

    That's a lot of ground to cover for their investigators. Given their M.O. I can think of a few traps they can set to catch these guys, but they're probably going to take time to implement. And with the high probability of an inside job, who do you trust in their systems end to help you catch the bad guys?

    --
    John
    1. Re:I think it's an inside job by gl4ss · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree(probably someon on the inside).. no other way for it to be several times at the same store otherwise..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:I think it's an inside job by Quarters · · Score: 3, Interesting
      First, look at how gift cards work. Many retailers use the model where their gift card records in their database created upon activation. This means they don't even ask the manufacturers for a list of "cards printed"; they simply direct the manufacturer to produce "a million cards in this number sequence, label them $20," that sort of thing. The value is added when the record is created at issuance. I'm assuming Walm*rt is operating in a similar fashion.

      More and more stores are selling cards with no value displayed on them. When you buy one it is blank and the person at the register adds both activation information and the value at the time the card is purchased. The cards on the racks are essentially blank.

    3. Re:I think it's an inside job by dagoalieman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wonder why they can't follow the money... they run these things like credit cards, I would assume there's a log somewhere of the transactions.

      Is there a geographical correspondence to where these cards are emptied? Or online?? Get an ip address, subpoena- this sorta stuff isn't taken lightly by the feds anymore.

      Or better yet.. can they spot the activation locations.. do THOSE have a correspondence?

      It seems to me this case would be simple to solve with some minor investigation of the data. And logs (which can be enabled if they aren't already.)

      The only odd thing here is the case went public. Usually you keep these silent until you have a firm suspect. They're easier to catch if they keep at the same routine, instead of getting scared off to not return for a while. I'm guessing they pretty much already have this guy in hand...

      --
      We don't need no Net Explorer We don't need no Thought control
    4. Re:I think it's an inside job by maeka · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Redeeming all but a few dollars on a card is a good idea I hadn't thought about but (if Wal Mart is smart) it isn't going to be enough to save the theives' asses.

      IANAWME but I do know that the cleaner American big-box discount retailer (think red) video captures every credit card transaction and I don't think it's going very far out on a limb to assume they do the same with gift cards. If Wally World does the same it will be only a matter of days before the crooks are caught...unless they are running this like the old cloned-cellphone game where the crooks sell the cloned goods, but don't actually use them personally.

    5. Re:I think it's an inside job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      I agree(probably someon on the inside).. no other way for it to be several times at the same store otherwise

      Not at all. It's trivial for an 'outsider' to do it!

      Step 1) Copy down a bunch of Gift Card's serial numbers. Just grab them off the rack, go to a quiet area of the store, write them down (or read the numbers into a tape recorder, or swipe them into a card reader). Then replace the cards.

      Etep 2) Call the automated 1-800 number onthe back of the card and see if those cards have any value on them. If not, skip to the next card. If they DO have value on them, proceed to step 3.

      Step 3) Take a gift card, and re-write the magnetic strip on the back, so it has the number of the card that has money on it.

      Step 4) Go to the store and buy stuff with the card. It is unlikely the cashier will compare the number onthe card with the number that prints on the receipt.

      Like I said- Trivial. And it easily explains why it was several fromthe same store, too.

    6. Re:I think it's an inside job by jkeyes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      that wouldn't work because the card serial numbers have the golden stuff you have to scratch off with your finger nail.

    7. Re:I think it's an inside job by CodeMaster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Don't overrule smart "consumers". As you pointed out they simply direct the manufacturer to produce a million cards in this number sequence The numbers ARE sequential (to some degree - they do need to pass some mod10 check or alike - not too different than credit cards), which means - you only ned one card number, and then a way to check the status of other numbers (available online). To redeem at store - get hold of a mag stripe writer and just use the same card (nicely branded) with your new numbers.

      Also - many retailers have the cards just lying around the store - flip them over and if you are lucky (B&N, Borders, CVS, etc...) the card number is just there. Write it down, and wait for someone to activate it (buy it). the rest is up to you.

      Again - all you have to do is be an observant shoper - what do the cards look like, are they sequential, is the card numbered covered with a scratch-off (better security), etc... Because most of these gift cards ride on the Visa/MC/AMEX networks, they have to conform to these rules, thus have easily guessable numbers, stupid PIN numbers etc...

      Just my $0.02

      get a free ipod! This really works... Only one GMAil invite left!...

    8. Re:I think it's an inside job by fredklein · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not all retailers hide their card numbers. Besides, it just takes a few people not noticing the number is already 'scratched' for this to work.

    9. Re:I think it's an inside job by AsnFkr · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I know how this is being done, our local Walmart has a big problem with this over the last holiday, and after some investigation they figured out how it was being done. Here's the know-how:

      Quick background:
      -None of the "amount data" is stored on the gift card. It's all server side, interfaced by the cash registers when swiped. All the card has is a unique ID number to identify itself to the register when swiped.

      -The cards used have credit card type stripes on the back, easily readable by *many* cheap swipe readers. http://www.barcodediscount.com/cats/credit-card-re aders/ You can also by rather cheap swipe formatters/programmers with a quick google.

      -The cards are also sold on shells that anyone can get to, and they are on cardboard backing packaging where is it *very* easy to just bend the package and have full access to swiping the card.

      The procedure:
      -First the criminal buys a bunch of cards for the lowest possible amount. I think this is $5. They now have valid cards.

      -Next the criminal takes a small Credit Card swiper into the store, grabs a hand full of the cards and swipes a ton of them..stores the card info into memory on the device or a small laptop/pda in their pocket or purse. then they place the card back on the shelf and go home.

      -They go home and use the numbers they have taken from cards at the store and program them over the valid $5 card they had bought.

      -A few days later, under the assumption that the cards they had copied have been legitimately sold and not yet used they go into the store with their copies and use them. All it takes to verify the card is working is to find a stupid wal-mart drone and ask them to scan it and tell you the worth of the card. As far as the cash register system is concerned the card is valid because it has a valid ID number. If it comes back with more than $5 on the card available for spending, they criminal wins. Spend the card and go on their way.

      -Now when the actual owner of the card comes in it will appear to have been spent, as its ID number is the same as the one used by the criminal has been used, even though the card technically has not.

      Its rather ingenious actually, and works best at Xmas. You scan cards the 15-23 assuming they will be activated and you will have a few days until they are spent (at least until the 25th) as they are popular Xmas gifts. It's also hard but not impossible to track the criminal, as you have to find the time of the transaction and dig up video of the transaction taking place...and most walmarts have rather shotty video quality at the registers, but the chance of getting caught in the act are slim and none. But if you do it, don't be surprised if cops show up at your door a week later. Snoogins.

    10. Re:I think it's an inside job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Assuming the cards at WalMart work like the ones at target, the balance can't be transfered. The only operations appear to be adding money to a particular card(associating the dollar value with the barcode on the back of the card) and spending the value on merchandice.

      Are you sure that the WAPs are for the registers? At Target the registers are on twisted pair wire. It's probably ethernet, but IBM could still be using token ring. They may use the WAPs for the portable inventory control terminals. I don't think that the ones we had at Target were 802.11, but it might have been faster if they were. The Portable Data Terminals we used had no access to the gift card system, but since they just ran a telnet session to the store computer it might not be the same at WalMart.

      The fact that they haven't found the person suggests that the gift cards look just like the real thing. The ones at Target have a fancy color picture on the front and have the number stamped onto the back in black ink. Melting off the old printing and printing a new barcode would be much easier than getting access to the central database .

    11. Re:I think it's an inside job by idiot900 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But why would you?

      For the intellectual challenge.

    12. Re:I think it's an inside job by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your typical store has at least 6 sets of switches: UPC office (where the servers are kept), GM (general Merchandise), GRC (Grocery), Garden Center, PICS (In the electronics Department, and Receiving. These switches are laid out into at least 3 vlans: POS, Non POS, and Wireless. By Default, the POS vlans are set to ports 1-12 on the switch. The switches are connected by a fiber backbone that usually involves two separate physical routes...so if one is cut, the other will be able to pick up the load. They're concnentrated to some cisco routers, and it'll go out either a 56K modem line or a T1 line, using a Hughes Sattelite link as a backup.


      So these 6 sets of switches are located in various places in the store? And there's a fiber backbone linking them all togheher?

    13. Re:I think it's an inside job by DAldredge · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Those WAPs are for the handheld terminals that the CSM's (Customer Service Managers use) and some of the Automotive depts also use the same wireless network for their workorder entry.

    14. Re:I think it's an inside job by Gonarat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You don't need access to WAP, or even the central database to pull this off. Most retailers have their cards in an assigned BIN range, which is a range of 16 or 19 digit (can be other lengths, but 16 or 19 is typical). If you can figure out what the range is (easy -- just buy one or more cards), get a card number generator program, use the 800 AVR (Automated Voice Response) number, and keep trying until you hit a card number with value. Fix up your card, and you're in business.

      These guys may get away with this for awhile, but most Retailers get fraud reports which they can use to analyse this kind of thing. Once they figure out the pattern, they can wait for the criminal(s) to make a mistake.

      It is not easy to prove fraud since gift cards are not linked to a customer, so they must catch the criminal with an altered card, or prove there is no way that a card bought at store A could be used at store B in a given time frame.


      --
      Beware of Sleestak
    15. Re:I think it's an inside job by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Yes, the grandparent is a fool. I worked at Wallyworld, not in LP, but I knew someone who did. He said, basically, that other employees don't have any idea what's going on there. The management deliberately doesn't tell them anything, so basically everything's a rumor. I suspect that the management figured out that employees are probably more likely to steal from the store, and also realized they didn't want to be told this. But, hey, like I said, I don't know anything...I'm just one of the few people who worked there who realized I don't know anything.

      Of course, I was a cashier, so the only thing I was even vaguely expected to do toward loss prevention was to open up coolers and tackleboxes. People who shoplift normally don't even go though the checkout. And the only things I could steal were pens and tictacs. (Well, obviously, I could have stuck a few hundred dollars in my pocket and sprinted out of the store. But not undetected.)

      However, I simply can't go with the idea that all cameras are recording. There's no reason they wouldn't have told us that, and what we were supposed to do about shoplifters are predicated on altering management without letting them out of our sight, and we were told that basically nothing would be done if we did let them out of our sight.

      In other words, if you shoplift in Walmart, wander quickly around the store immediately afterwards, and you'll probably get away with it. They don't want people pretending to shoplift and then sticking things back on shelves when no one's looking. Which makes no sense at all if the cameras are always rolling and have complete coverage...they could just check the tape before stopping someone. (Or, at least, before searching them.)

      Like you said, we weren't told jack about how actual LP works...but I don't understand what they would have to gain by telling us that it's more important to watch the shoplifter than to alert someone, if in actuality they have tapes of everything.

      That said, I couldn't care less. While I loathe Walmart, I don't plan to start shoplifting from there. I do laugh as I casually get 20 dollars cash back on a 59 cent purchase, though, secure in knowing that my bank charged them 2 dollars for that.

      And if they ever talk about a schedule power outage...that's a bomb threat. Just in case anyone cares and actually wants to get out of the store.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  3. Old adage.. by Ikn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Something like "idle hands are a devil's playground"? Well, bored geek employed at Walmart = ..well, this.

    --
    I know nothing
  4. reimbursement by X_Caffeine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    at least Walmart can afford to reimburse those customers. After all, they skim a buck from every card every month they remain unused. (If you've got an unused Walmart card from last Christmas, it's lost $9 of its value.)

    --
    // I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans.
  5. I think this has been going on for a while... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I remember reading a while back that one of the major retailers, possibly walmart had gift cards with sequential serial numbers, stored on the magstripe in plaintext, so anyone with a card reader/writer can easily change the id stored on the gift card.

    Theres an 800 number you can call to find out the card's balance, so it just takes a little time and guesswork to find a card number with a balance on it.

  6. Why steal when you can make? by usefool · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If someone has access to Walmart's database and/or registration data, why can't this someone just get a pre-paid card, and change its value according with all matching/tracking records in the database?

    In this case, no other customer is going to report missing money, and this someone can quietly purchase and "top up" the card regularly until maybe the auditing season.

    --
    Uselessful technology (Air-Charged
    1. Re:Why steal when you can make? by SealBeater · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If someone has access to Walmart's database and/or registration
      data, why can't this someone just get a pre-paid card, and change its value
      with all matching/tracking records in the database?


      There might be a system of checks and balances, like the card not being
      activated unless/until the til is checked at the end of the day, to prevent the
      employees simply issuing themselves cards. It might even check against a different
      database..other than the above pure speculation, I agree.

      SealBeater
      --
      -- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
  7. Or system error... by plover · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Yeah, I know replying to yourself is bad karma, but I just thought of another possibility: system error.

    Walm*rt may have an error in their central authorizing servers that's "confusing" redemption replies. Imagine a server that accepts requests from tens of thousands of different registers (probably a mainframe.) All those responses have to go back to the place they came from. What if a response was corrupted and an approval went back to a wrong register?

    Or what if a request was corrupted? What if some stack corruption in their register changed a 12345 into a 22345, and they just happened to match a card issued elsewhere?

    Or, what if the manufacturers screwed up and printed duplicate serial numbers on the backs of a batch of cards? Jane Doe goes to buy a card, but that serial number was already purchased by John Smith in a different state. If Jane's purchase request was made "offline", the card would be given to her immediately, but the card activation would have to be made after she left. Now, if Jane redeems her card, she uses John's value. Walm*rt would have no way to go back to Jane to say "Sorry, we gave you a bad card."

    For these scenarios to work with a card being cashed within hours of being issued seems highly unlikely until you remember one thing: Walm*rt operates over 8000 stores, with probably over 200,000 POS registers, each of which is cranking through perhaps two or three hundred transactions a day. When you start factoring in just how many transactions might be corrupted, having a couple of "unlikely" coincidences seems more like a statistical certainty than a random chance.

    --
    John
    1. Re:Or system error... by Colol · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The number printed on the card is really irrelevant -- they're read by the mag stripe reader at the POS, both for activation and debit (just clarifying; not discounting your idea). This actually makes production flaws all the more interesting to me. What if the machinery kept printing the right numbers, but every card produced was given the same serial in the stripe?

      Walmart's cards are "rechargeable" after all (and anyone can add funds to any card), so the POS system might not find anything wrong with 100 people crediting $20 to card 412345678.

      Heck, you could walk out with some gift cards that hadn't been activated yet, reprogram/restripe them to match your card, and stick them back on the shelf. As long as you knew when the balance was increased, you'd have a veritable cornucopia of digital cashflow. Granted, you're limited to spending it at Walmart or Sam's Club, but it's there.

  8. Re:Bad Publicity by Edmund+Blackadder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But I hate it that they always initially refuse these things. It's like you have to make a big deal out of it in order to get your money back. Or, in other words, the store takes advantage of people that are too polite too nice and/or too busy to make a scene.

  9. Corporate Policy? by Bowling+Moses · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Given how Walmart mistreats its employees (forced unpaid overtime, automatic firing for even *thinking* of getting unionized, illegal immigrant janitors making well below minimum wage and locked in the stores at night, etc.) and how Walmart systematically ruins local economies, and who knows what else, would it surprise anyone at all if some Walmart executive would have the system set up to wipe out gift cards X% of the time? In Walmart's case assuming a system compromised by petty theft is just unwarranted--systematic and corporate-sanctioned theft may be more appropriate.

  10. Not to interrupt your OT Walmart rant... by Chordonblue · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But, what's wrong with China changing it's laws to better support their own people? If you are seriously suggesting that we stop using Chinese products then you'd better look around. In electronics, there's hardly any other choice. Why do you single out Walmart for this? Open your eyes and look in ANY other retail store.

    The US simply can't compete with cheap labor like this so... We use it if they want to supply it.

    Perhaps it would be better for these people to slave and die in the fields instead of becoming industrialized, but I'm not sure. Every nation that has gone through this process started this way - out of necessity.

    Don't weep too uncontrolably for China. At the rate they're going their economy will soon dwarf the US. Pray that their governmental system changes before them or perhaps YOU will be working for .50 cents an hour.

    --
    "...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
  11. Wal-Mart expires these cards when? by grolaw · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Where one of the cards was empty in three hours the problem is within the control of Wal Mart. If the matter is considered as a glitch in the system and the cards just expire too fast, well that is one thing...an error that Wal Mart should have caught.

    If there is an insider trading information (that could NEVER happen, right?) then security is way off and Wal Mart still loses.

    If the system is open to outsiders to hack and they have the ability to grab the latest cards purchased and burn data and make purchases within three hours then the system is way too open.

    People who pull off these scams aren't interested in most goods - they want cash. I suppose that the easiest method is to buy a case or 10 of cigarettes or to try to return a high-dollar item. The former can be sold almost anywhere and the latter will give the thief cash, but only after a second pass at the Wal Mart chain. The latter is a high-risk approach and it isn't consistent with an ongoing breach...

    If only a few stories are out about these cards, but the breach of the cash control system is so complete that the funds can be diverted within three hours, then the problem is far more common and serious than Wal Mart wants to disclose. The system must have been compromised so thoroughly that only a complete replacement would eliminate the problem. Wal Mart data mines (last I read, they had the largest database of consumer purchases on the planet) and these cards are clearly an integral part of their data capture system. The cost of "fixing" the system must be far greater than the losses thus far. Of course, that could be hundreds of millions of dollars....

    1. Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when? by reverse+flow+reactor · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you don't spend the full value of the card, the balance should still remain on the card.

      If you return an item to the store, they don't typically return cash. I returned a ~ large item, and they would only give it back in terms of store credit - i.e. value stored with the card. They refused to return it as cash or a credit to the credit card used to purchase the item.

      Just be careful that they do give it back to you. I had a cashier try and keep my card even though it had $45 value left on it. She tossed it in the garbage after the transaction. I made sure she fished it out and returned it to me.

      I've seen more 'fishy' cash-register things at Wal-Mart than any other store. Things like the cost of a good mysteriously increasing in price up to 50% between the shelf and the cash register. And, according to those who this has happened to, is a regular occurance.

      Maybe it is just the Wal-Mart near here, but I really can't trust them.

      --

      The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them. -Einstein

    2. Re:Wal-Mart expires these cards when? by stephanruby · · Score: 2, Interesting
      "Things like the cost of a good mysteriously increasing in price up to 50% between the shelf and the cash register. And, according to those who this has happened to, is a regular occurance. "

      This happens at many stores. Usually, it's because some item is being marked down for the week, but the store is taking its sweet time updating its database.

      In California, the law is very clear about this. The price at the shelf always trumps the price at the cash register. We even have inspectors who make sure this law is enforced.

  12. It won't bankrupt WalMart by erick99 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    About 45 billion dollars a year are spent on gift cards. Five to 10% are never cashed in. So, we are talking about 1/2 billion dollars of "additional profit." I've gotta believe that WalMart sells a sh*tload of gift cards and even at at redemption rate of 95% is coming out ahead millions a year. So, while it's no fun to pay out on the stolen cards twice, there is ample money in the bucket from the never-to-be-redeemed to cover the losses.

    Cheers,

    Erick

    --
    http://www.busyweather.com/
  13. Re:Gift Vouchers are stupid. by kalislashdot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would have to agree with Parent. I see absolutly no point in gift-cards. The retailers push them because they make money on them since they charge a monthly fee or the card goes unused. Then they say a gift card if different then a gift certificate so they can charge those fees. That is kinda like saying a mini-van is not a passenger car so it can pass bad crash tests.

    I for one laugh!!! HAHAHA Gift cards are lame, anyone who buys them deserves this.

  14. Didn't we see this story before? by dougmc · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I could have sworn that I read a similar story somewhere a month or two ago ...

    In that case, people were writing down the number of a card still on the shelf, or taking pictures of the bar code or something, and then noting what the sequence is (they are in order, after all) and then going home, and using the 1-800 number to see how much money was on the card to see when it was sold.

    Once they found a number with money on it, they'd modify a card that they had (printing bar codes and reprogramming magnetic strips is easy) to have that number, and go and spend somebody else's money. Easy.

    Seems easy enough to track, as 1-800 numbers include caller ID type info, so just see what number was called to check the balance of the card before it was depleted of funds, and if the same number shows up a few times, call the police ...

    To make matters worse, the fine print basically said that this sort of loss was the customer's problem, not the retailer's. So the retailer was refusing to pay people for the lost money ...

    In any event, giving a gift card sucks, even without this scam. It has *all* the tackiness of giving cash, but with the additional tackiness of telling you where you can spend this money. If you're going to buy me a present, buy me a present. If you want to give me cash, I certainly like cash. But don't spend cash on a gift card ... either use it to buy me something, or just give me the cash.

    And if this does happen to you, scream bloody murder. Do not accept anything less than all the lost money, even if the fine print says that it's not their responsiblity. Call the local media if you have to. Make a scene in the store. Call the corporate office if you have to ... you'll probably eventually get your money.

  15. No way ... not an inside job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is not an inside job - I've read about this before . Walk into a Walmart, get a stack of cards swipe them and record the numbers - the number to scratch is only needed if you want to call the 800 number to find out how much is left.

    Put the cards back on the rack - they are the next ones that will be picked up. Remember these are purchased as gifts, they are not used right away.

    Create new cards, go in the next day - "Hey freind gave this as a gift, can you tell me how much is on it ?".

    No inside job, no hacking, no security leak - just exploiting a weak system.

  16. Holy Holes-In-Your-Security, Batman! by Thedalek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's trivial to get into a UPC office to gain access to these things. Most stores don't check ID's, let alone work orders. Default passwords are commonplace ("ma5t3r", "9052/9052" and the like), and it's very easy to get an employee to Log in for you if needed. WalMart keeps printed logs of just about every transaction that is created, as well as in electronic form.

    Am I alone in noticing this as a nightmarishly insecure system? Consider this scenario: Hacker enters the UPC office, then alters the prices on a select number of high cost items to be something negligable, like $0.20 or some such. Hacker's partner buys the items on the list, winds up paying less than $5.00 for over $1,000 worth of merchandise, with everything looking fine from the POV of your non-tech-savvy register worker (or U-Scan system). Hacker gives his partner 4 minutes or so (since the prices only have to be right when they're getting scanned), then switches all the prices back and makes his escape.

    That's just scary.

    --
    Happiness is relative, Based upon the way we live.
  17. Re:They do have logs. by CaptBubba · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The cameras are not aimed at the customers, they are aimed at the cashiers. My mother had her mastercard stolen and they pulled the camera records when it was used, and while you could clearly see the cash register and drawer, the thief's face was far enough outside of the camera's focus that he was unidentifiable.

    Of course, if it was an inside job this could be useful.