Interview with Camino Developer Mike Pinkerton

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Interview with Camino Developer Mike Pinkerton

Posted by michael on Thursday September 23, 2004 @03:36AM from the anything-but-ie dept.

An anonymous reader writes "As someone who has used Camino for much of the time since the OS X-centric Gecko browser was released, I've been hoping to see it hit version 1.0 (it's at 0.8 now). ArsTechnica has an interview with Mike Pinkerton, the lead developer for Camino in which he talks about the history and future of Camino along with his thoughts on Safari and Firefox."

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Safari on Mac, Firefox on PC by danigiri · 2004-09-23 04:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

Mmmmm... the interview is interesting and I'll try Camino for a while to test the waters.

Any obvious advantages from day to day use? I see from their website it has some OSX-specific features that look cool enough, any highlights?

[Swimming in the calm waters of alternative browsers, Safari and Firefox when on Win]
1. Re:Safari on Mac, Firefox on PC by the+pickle · 2004-09-23 04:09 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I find Safari to be better on slow connections, but only because PithHelmet is so effective. Camino is typically faster (PB G4/800, 512 MB RAM) on anything better than a 56K dialup.
  
  Both browsers have their rendering quirks, though both are Good Enough(tm) for government work. I prefer the interface of Camino overall, because I find it less visually jarring than the brushed-metal look of Safari (which, before anyone comments, looks downright *weird* in its Aqua "theme," with the brushed-metal look removed).
  
  I still use Camino as my primary browser, though if there's something absolutely critical that I need to get to on a slow connection, I'll use Safari.
  
  Also, Camino tends to play more nicely with sites that (stupidly) exclude browsers based on the user-agent string. Yes, you can change it in Safari, but Camino Just Works(tm) more often than not, and it's one less thing you have to mess with.
  
  I can't really think of a good reason to recommend *against* either one, though. That says a lot for the current state of browsers on the Mac.
  
  p
  
  --
  In Korea, long hair is for old people!
Competition is good by HotButteredHampster · 2004-09-23 04:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

Camino is a good browser, which I started using at 0.4. It seduced me with its beautiful anti-aliased text rendering when the only alternative was IE 5. There were big issues in the day: I never bookmarked anything, because bookmarks were as permanent as writing in sand. Below the tide line. Even so, I used it over IE (mmm... beautiful fonts) and the laughable Mozilla 1.0.
But I was seduced by Safari. It loaded quicker. It was faster. It was simple and elegant, which were things that Camino was going for, but wasn't there yet. I've used Safari ever since. Even as I did so, I was saddened, because I thought Camino would die because it was too late to the party.
However, because Camino leverages Gecko, and Mozilla/Firefox are starting to kick some butt, Camino has had forward momentum even when it was standing still. I use Firefox every day at work (right now, in fact), and it is to Windows what Camino can be to Mac. I've installed Firefox on my web server (the current version of Safari doesn't support OSX 10.2.8). As the interview points out, Firefox is good, but it's not a Macintosh app. Camino is.
There are now two excellent open-source HTML rendering engines which are actively being developed on the Mac platform, which is a much better position than it was when I was playing with Chimera 0.4. With the exit of IE, Apple still has a healthy competitive environment, thanks to projects like Firefox and Camino.
HBH

--
"Smart is sexy." -- D. Scully ("War of the Coprophages")
1. Re:Competition is good by Finuvir · 2004-09-23 04:48 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  How so? Mozilla and Firefox are already available on Mac OS.
  
  --
  Why is anything anything?
2. Re:Competition is good by MinutiaeMan · 2004-09-23 06:21 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  You obviously didn't RTFA... the entire point of Camino is that it's a browser designed specifically for Mac OS X, and therefore includes features and compatibility that Firefox and Mozilla don't (and can't).
Veee-rry Smart answer .. by torpor · 2004-09-23 04:32 · Score: 3, Interesting

.. to the 'difference between open and closed source models' ..

open source == -0day!

I shall have to try Camino, but darnit, if it still takes forever to load and get itself started, its useless to me. web browsers need to open and close fast, on my system .. and Safari has the fastest startup time yet, so Safari it is .. but lets see if Camino is worth changing habits for..

--
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
1. Re:Veee-rry Smart answer .. by BandwidthHog · 2004-09-23 09:11 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  I keep one or more browser windows open on four of my eight desktops. Each of those browser windows has between one and ten tabs open. Unless something dreadful happens, my browser only launches after Software Update causes me to reboot.
  
  Launch time is bandwidth-bound, so whichever one launches less wins. Unfortunately, Safari was crashing every month or two. FlamingCougar hasn't gone out once since I switched a few months ago *knock on space age composite*.
  
  That was why I (somewhat reluctantly) switched, and extensions are why I'll never go back to Safari. Last time I used Camino (kept with it for about six months after Safari came out) it didn't support Mozilla or SmolderingChimp extensions. If that were to change some day, who knows?
  
  --
  
  Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Interesting quote on tabbed browsing by chia_monkey · 2004-09-23 04:58 · Score: 4, Interesting

Pinkerton was quoted as saying "For instance, we looked hard at the tabbed browsing style of OmniWeb even before they did it and decided that while it was very pretty and a great demo of Aqua, it wasn't all that usable on a day to day basis."

I have to admit that I'm a tabbed browsing junkie now. I go absolutely nuts if I have to use someone else's computer that doesn't have a tabbed browser. It seems like such an insignificant little feature, but it really does add a lot to my browsing experience. I'm really glad it's in there now, but I still found that quote to be quite interesting. It seems that if you want to be on the cutting edge, you'd want to put in the features and let the users decide on whether it's useful or not.

--

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
1. Re:Interesting quote on tabbed browsing by dn15 · 2004-09-23 05:05 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  In case you didn't know, I believe he was actually referring to OmniWeb's specific style of tabs (a sidebar of thumbnails) rather than tabs as a whole. Camino does have a regular tab bar like Safari, Firefox, etc.
Re:KHTML vs. Gecko by Brandybuck · 2004-09-23 06:15 · Score: 5, Interesting

I talked to a few Mac users the other day. It turned out that they all used BOTH Camino and Safari, because there were sites Safari would render correctly that Camino would not. This may sound like shocking heresy to some, but this information comes straight from the users' mouths.

Until web developers start coding to realworld "LCD" standards, there will always be the need for multiple rendering engines.

--
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Re:Firefox is the best by BadMrMojo · 2004-09-23 06:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is the first actual explanation I've seen for a reason to select Camino over FF and it has me convinced to give it another try.

I started using Camino (Chimera, at the time) when I got sick of OmniWeb (version 0.5, maybe?) and switched from Camino to Firefox in order to see what all the hype was about. I've downloaded updates as they came out but haven't really given them much of a chance. I simply didn't see any reason to do so.

Finally, I've gotten them. Thanks for the quote.
Camino's biggest fault. by Yaztromo · 2004-09-23 07:05 · Score: 4, Interesting

FireFox is my day-to-day browser on OS X, and while there are some integration items I wish it had (like the integration with the Adress Book, the various Services like Grab, Mail, Speech, Summerize, and most importantly the Keychain), Camino has one major functionality lack which keeps me from running it -- no image blocking.
I can't understand why they haven't implemented this. It's in every other Gecko-based browser out there. I don't visit websites to see big flashing ads at the top and bottom of every page. I have better uses for my bandwidth.
FireFox has ad blocking. Camino doesn't. For this (and pretty much only this) reason, I'm not using Camino.
The day they implement ad blocking, I'll probably switch on my PowerBook.
Yaz.
1. Re:Camino's biggest fault. by Yaztromo · 2004-09-23 07:46 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Because I want more control than that. And I don't want to have to edit CSS to get it.
  Personally, I like that I can right-click on ads in FireFox to block or un-block them. There are some sites I permit ad-sized graphics from. There are others I kill as soon as I first visit them.
  The CSS solutions are good if you don't have access to a better solution -- but with FireFox, I have access to a better solution :).
  Otherwise, I really want to like Camino. While I don't use it extensively, I'd like to be able to use the "Services" menu, but FireFox doesn't interoperate with them at all. And being able to have just one Keychain setup (instead of two) would also be advantageous.
  But that lack of integrated ad blocking just bugs me. It's the same reason why I don't run Safari.
  Yaz.
Re:I heart Camino by thirteenVA · 2004-09-23 07:11 · Score: 3, Interesting

1) You're correct, it does however support using space and shift+space to quickly scroll.

2)I don't think safari or firefox does this either.

3)As far as i know, none of the major browsers do this (IE, Mozilla or Safari) 'right out of the box'. In safari you enable the debug menu, and mozilla/firefox require an extension.
Re:Firefox is the best by Alcimedes · 2004-09-23 07:33 · Score: 4, Interesting

One thing I'll say for Camino is they know how to render default buttons.

Firefox's button defaults look like ass. It has a lot of other, better features, but the UI isn't really one of them.

Now Adblock.......
Try this, perhaps by BadMrMojo · 2004-09-23 07:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

http://kmgerich.com/archive/000069.html

Not perfect but getting warmer.
Re:I used to use Camino by OmniVector · 2004-09-23 08:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

just add this userContent.css file to ~/Library/Application Support/Camino/chrome and you have *exactly* the same thing as adblock in firefox. you can even add this style sheet in safari (use the last toolbar button) and it's the same as pithhelment.

--
- tristan
Re:OmniWeb by Daleks · 2004-09-23 13:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

Per-site preferences rocked my world. OmniWeb innovates while others stagnate. A new feature in Safari for 10.4 is RSS feeds. Woo... Why not improve my actual browsing experience? OmniGroup focuses on doing this rather than adding stupid add-ons. The use of WebKit has freed OmniGroup from having to build a rendering engine (re-inventing the wheel) and allows all the talent flow to improving the act of browsing. Job well done.
but... by chasingporsches · 2004-09-23 13:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

/. looks A LOT nicer on safari. camino, firefox, mozilla, etc. needs GOOD font smoothing on OS X.
Camino + Japanese = still sucking by bursch-X · 2004-09-23 17:23 · Score: 3, Interesting

It still makes a complete visual mess when trying to display Japanese. It displays some words using different fonts for each character and quirks like this. Makes the page really ugly. I have no idea why that is, because Firefox renders those pages perfectly (as does Safari).

It's a shame because I'd rather use Camino than Firefox. Firefox doesn't use native widgets and still doesn't really look & feel like a fully OS X "native" application (although they're really doing their best to get closer).

--
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
1. Re:Camino + Japanese = still sucking by Quobobo · 2004-09-23 20:14 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Interesting, what pages are you talking about in particular? I just fired it up and checked out a few sites (of course the all-important slashdot.jp), and I don't see any problems. Are you unable to fix this even by changing the text encoding? Only thing I noticed is that a few words in Japanese seem a bit blurry, but I don't know if that's a Japanese-specific bug or not.
Camino Localization project by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-23 18:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

The Camino Localization project, aims to translate and release Camino in non english languages. If you want Camino to be available in your language please join the project.
Actually They're All Good ... by Socket+Scientist · 2004-09-23 19:36 · Score: 5, Interesting

A few years ago when OS X was new and OmniWeb and IE were it, who would have believed we'd eventually have such an embarrassment of capable browsers on the Mac platform?
Re:KHTML vs. Gecko by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-24 03:29 · Score: 1, Interesting

I agree completely. As a Mac user I use Camino, Safari, and Firefox almost all equally. I even load IE when nothing else works. In this Windows only world, I find I often have to try multiple browsers just to load some information!

My blood boils when a page won't work and I see the .asp file extension... Wtf is the point of the web when it is written for just one browser and platform?
Re:OmniWeb by jcr · 2004-09-24 11:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

OmniWeb innovates while others stagnate.

Someday, I'd like to see a list of all of Omni's inventions that were copied by NetScape, and then copied in turn by MS.

-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Same here... by solios · 2004-09-24 13:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

I use Safari and Firefox, because hey- there's shit Safari just fucks up on. Period.

I think it's positively stupid that it's 2004 and there's no single Good Web Browser yet. :-| Hell, Safari has a ton of its own stupidities and neither Safari OR Firefox have a download manager that I like. :P
Slow development (no more?) by AvantLegion · 2004-09-24 19:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

I stopped using Camino and switched to Firefox on my Powerbook because, at the time, the most recent Camino release was over a year old (this was around May, with tnen-current 0.7 having been released in March 2003).
But now 0.8 and 0.8.1 have dropped, and I'm using Camino again - at least for the time being.
Hopefully development will remain steady.
Ad blocking == bad by oldosadmin · 2004-09-25 18:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

I understand there are some obnoxious ads... but if you want free content, deal with the ads. I mean, blocking flash ads... popup blocking... understandable. But I have a lot of people who block my google text ad and my sponsor banner on my site... which keeps me from having a lot of money come out of my pocket each month.

--
Jay | http://oldos.org
1. Re:Ad blocking == bad by PsychoSpunk · 2004-09-27 03:13 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I'm sorry, but I never gave you permission to use my bandwidth to send me ads.
  
  Yes, because you live in some magickal world where the browser fairy takes you to unwanted sites and fills your screen with advertisements.
  
  Er, rather, you requested content from a site that looked like:
  
  GET /page.html
  
  And it gave you page.html and all that it entails. So, at least from a httpd server point of view, you did request the advertisements.
  
  --
  ALL HAIL BRAK!!!