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"Levels" of Computers the Future?

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the do-they-get-xp-too dept.

RabidMoose writes "Gamespot has an article up talking about a recent interview with Microsofts's Dean Lester about the future of PC gaming (as well as Xbox 2 tidbits). Basically, they're in contact with the big hardare producers about transitioning to a system of tagging pre-made computers with "levels". He provided a hypothetical example that a PC with a "level 5" designation might have a medium processor speed, amount of RAM, and mid-range video card, while a "level 7" PC might have a faster processor, more RAM, and a higher-end video card."

41 of 635 comments (clear)

  1. Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by erick99 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    A level system would be bastardized very quickly. There are so many possible permutations of hardware combinations that it would be difficult to even come up with general levels. You would instantly run into, for example, "Level 5 with the video card of a level 8." or "Level 7 but double the ram," ect., etc. You might also end up with "flavors" of a level such as maybe Dell's idea of a Level 5 ends up better than Compaq's. Once again, as I have often had occasion to say with regards to these type of ideas, we have a solution in search of a problem.

    -erick

    --
    http://www.busyweather.com/
    1. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by DVDAshot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Here here. Here's a solution. Why don't we just continue to call it what it is. Why does Microsoft feel the need to try to dumb down everything that has to do the PC.

    2. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by RazzleFrog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This may be taken as a troll but it really is to compete with Apple. Apple long ago learned that some people just want a machine without having to know every spec.

    3. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by CrankyFool · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ooh, I think we may be missing the point.

      Think about how some cars are sold with option packages: I couldn't get the parking system I wanted ($300) without getting the GPS system I didn't want ($1200).

      So maybe the whole thing here is that you _cannot_ have a Level 3 computer with a Level 8 card -- that it's a bundle, and you have to go with an L8 computer if you want an L8 card even if all you want the L8 desig for is just the card, not the CPU.

      Add to that some sort of ability to limit in BIOS what you can use ("this is an L3 computer. It may only have video cards that are 33MHz or slower and 32Mb of less of RAM") and you essentially kill modding of the most moddable (is that a word?) platform around! Then, you don't necessarily need to build an 'XBox' to do one thing and a 'PC' to do another and be afraid people will take the XBox and turn it into a computer -- you just sell an L2 (of a certain form factor) that can't be upgraded.

      I hope these are just paranoid delusions ...

    4. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Video cards are really a great example. Did you get the FX or the MX. Is it LE, SE, Pro, or Ultra? 64, 128, or 256? AGP 4x, 8X, or PCI?

    5. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by BeerCat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most people just don't need the extra power

      That's probably true. Some tasks maybe only need level 3, but the marketing droids have convinced the public that they really need level 7 "at minimum"; better go for a level 9 to be safe, or a level 11 for "future proofing".

      It's very similar to the "Landmark" benchmark, where processors were given a notional equivalence to an old 80286. Thus, a 25MHz 386DX was IIRC given a Landmark speed of "57MHz" (ie, a '286 would have to run at that speed to be as fast. It got dropped not long after the 486 came out, as the Landmark speeds were heading into 4 figures, when actual speeds were barely into 3.

      This system (if it takes off) will go the same way, when people get fed up being told that they need a "level 250" just to browse the web.

      --
      "She's furniture with a pulse"
    6. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by emag · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even if you don't overlook a spec or two, wait a year, and you'll be disappointed. The difference between PCs and consoles/iMacs (at least in this case), is the difference between a diverse group of vendors constantly developing new technologies (revolutionary or evolutionary) vs single vendors who have a complete lock on the platform, keeping it static for years at a time.

      So what happens is, developers keep taking advantage of the latest and greatest video/sound/whatever in the PC world, where your equipment quickly becomes obsolete and the PC you got last Christmas has trouble running the games released this week, while developers for console systems and the like have a strictly-defined set of unchanging hardware (until the next replacement comes out), and so of COURSE everything for console Y or an iMac that you grab off the shelf is guaranteed to run....it's all for (arguably) obsolete hardware...

      --
      "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken
    7. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by joeljkp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, they're not idiots. They either don't care, have better things to do with their time, or feel overwhelmed by it all. You know, like me and quantum physics. Doesn't mean I'm an idiot, just means that I don't know quantum physics.

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
    8. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by fupeg · · Score: 4, Insightful
      That's probably true. Some tasks maybe only need level 3, but the marketing droids have convinced the public that they really need level 7 "at minimum"; better go for a level 9 to be safe, or a level 11 for "future proofing".
      Actually, no they haven't, and that's a big problem the industry is focussing on. Most people bought computers around 2000, but a lot haven't since. That's why you see all these heavy handed tactics (especially by Microsoft who makes much of their money off people buying new computers) trying to convince people to upgrade. MS won't patch your IE unless you're on XP. Now they want you to buy a new computer so you can play games. If everybody upgraded every couple of years, then they wouldn't bother with such tactics.
    9. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ever hear of MPC? It let "multimedia" designers establish a standard below which their software would not work. However this is horribly misguided (the levels, not MPC) because you'd have to have a new set of levels every year.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by kin_korn_karn · · Score: 4, Interesting


      Welcome to the automobile industry. The amount of time and money is a lot different but direct parallels can be drawn. Autos were toys for hobbyists at first and then everybody wanted one and they became 'dumbed down' and hobbyists resented it.

      Can you rebuild your own transmission? That's the auto equivalent of rolling a kernel, or maybe fixing driver corruption in Windows without a complete reinstall (aka chucking a car and getting a new one) Do you want to get out and crank your engine manually to start it? No? Well, then thank the person that bitched about it in 1912 or whenever it was that they got rid of that. Just like some people don't want to spend their evenings running virus scanners and debugging the alpha source for the latest foozle on sf.net.

    11. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by naarok · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've said it before and I'll say it again. Apple does not "just work". If a person is used to Windows and Unix, moving to an Apple (even OS X) is a frustrating experience. Nothing just works. You have to re-learn everything about the GUI metaphor.

    12. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by theguru · · Score: 4, Informative

      Quit spreading FUD. MS has not said they won't patch IE for non XP users. Don't beleive everything you read on the frontpage of Slashdot. What they have said is, they will not be releasing the enhancements that XP SP2 added to IE for non XP OS's. Security patches and hotfixes for IE will continue to be produced for non XP systems.

      Now, I have to get back to work on my level -3 laptop...

    13. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by tukkayoot · · Score: 4, Interesting
      So what do we need the extra power for?

      GAMES. For what most people do with their PCS, "extra power" just isn't necessary. Five year old computers that were mid range when they were created are sufficient. They may be sluggish sometimes, but it's tolerable.

      But if you're a gamer, performance is very important to the whole experience of the game. It's not like waiting for a program to load or encoding an mp3, where patience is all you need to deal with poor performance. In games, bad performance translates into poor frame rates, which can translate into an unplayable game.

      Game developers will always find new ways to utilize improvements in PC performance. More detailed models and textures, more animations, better physics, better lighting and particle effects, better AI, ect.

      Game developers will continue to push the envelope and as a result, hardware developers will always have a reason to do the same, and there will always be a demand for an improved product. Until the technical limitations imposed by real physics make it infeasible to continue to make significant improvements in PC performance at a price point that is affordable to most gamers.

    14. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by Luigi30 · · Score: 5, Funny

      All of this will make you shit yourself, which requires Level 3 Toilets, and if you don't, Level 2 Toilet Paper to clean up.

      --
      503 Sig Unavailable

      The Signature could not be accessed. Please try again later or contact the administrator
    15. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by severoon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't get it. We have levels right now...we just don't call them "levels".

      What's the point of adding another "level" of indirection in this process? Also, it's possible that you'll get manufacturers that try to exploit the interference between components. I have a crap processor and motherboard, so it should be in a level 3, but I've doubled the RAM and hard disk size expected for a level 3 machine, so it's actually a level 5 now. But run it up against any other level 5 machine, and it sucks.

      Of course, we could solve this problem by creating a telephone book-sized standard that declares the minimum requirements necessary for each level. They'll have to settle on something that will flow along with time...the minimum requirements for a level 5 will change on a month-to-month basis. And then as people become dependent on this mindless system, and we get unethical manufacturers falsely advertising the levels of their hardware, we'll have to get Congress to start passing laws forbidding that kind of thing.

      Actually, I'm starting to change my mind on this levels thing. If we work it right, we could snarl up major corporations and the government to the tune of billions of dollars and years of effort. Maybe if we distract them with this, they won't have time to keep messing up the important stuff in life.

      --
      but have you considered the following argument: shut up.
    16. Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200 by Total_Wimp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've said it before and I'll say it again. Apple does not "just work". If a person is used to Windows and Unix, moving to an Apple (even OS X) is a frustrating experience. Nothing just works. You have to re-learn everything about the GUI metaphor.

      You are so right. I wish more people would acknowledge this fact. If you're unsure of what he means here folks then I have a little exercise for you.

      1. Go to a Mac and open a web browser.
      2. Go to a page with a text for like, say, the Slashdot Post Comment form.
      3. Enter a bunch of text.
      4. Highlight the text and hit ctrl-C, the widely-used Windows keyboard shortcut for copying text.

      What happens to your text? That's right, the copy command basically ends up deleting your text (actually replaced with an unintended symbol) with no copy being made. Your work is gone with no backup.

      This is not a flaw in the Mac, it's how they're designed to work, but it's an excellent example of how Macs DONT "just work" if you're used to working with Windows.

      This guy is not bashing Macs. He's making a very important observation. Mac lovers need to grow up and realize that just 'cause it's easy for them (they already know about the command key) doesn't mean it's going to be easy for others.

      TW

  2. so by TupperTrenine · · Score: 5, Funny

    How much experience do I need to level up to a Radeon x800?

  3. All I know.. by Artie_Effim · · Score: 5, Funny

    In the futuire MY PC will go to 11.

    1. Re:All I know.. by serutan · · Score: 4, Funny

      My PC is a Level 4, but with Special Abilities bonus it compiles as a Level 6 and gets a +3 saving throw vs Viruses.

  4. Remember MPC? by Fez · · Score: 5, Informative

    They already tried this before... There was the "Multimedia PC" (MPC) spec that had level 1, 2, 3, etc based on whether or not your PC had a CD-ROM, sound card, graphics capable of 800x600 and so on.

    This was back in the days of Windows 3.1, even.

    1. Re:Remember MPC? by jandrese · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah, I was going to mention this. It died pretty quickly. The problem was that applications often require certain components to be faster/better (your application may be MMC1, except you needed 8MB of RAM so you were stuck with the MMC3 designation). People who had computers that would run your software (and otherwise generate a sale) were scared away because they only had a 2xCD-ROM (leaving them at the MMC2 level). I think the hardware also changed too fast for the MMC guys to keep up (especially when 3D video cards/games started appearing on the market).

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  5. MPC, Take Two? by Serk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In other words, they're trying to bring the "MPC" standards from the early 90's back?

    http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/MPC.html

    --
    Never ask a geek why, just nod your head and slowly back away. -Rob Malda
  6. Level ONE! by BWJones · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, by God I want a Level ONE computer. Is not that what all geeks will aspire to? On a serious note, this proposal is going to run into some problems with the definition and quantification of just what is "A computer". For instance, we are not far off from having multiple core CPUs on one chip which gives many software vendors massive headaches. Additionally, the concept of clustering (I favor xGrid myself) shows the problem as well. Are you defining a level designation per task? per installation? per "box"? Honestly this smacks of marketing speak that is designed to sell discrete "game" packages and I am inclined to dismiss it as such unless somebody can more clearly define why this is necessary or why this has applicability beyond the gaming market. I suppose that if you could "quantify" the nature of the task in terms of how much "horsepower" or throughput a given computer system is capable of then one could apply it to something other than a game. But the problem is often not CPU limited unless you are dealing with large calculations which occupy big iron many hours to days to weeks and even when working with games you have the problem of perception. One could establish I suppose a lower limit of 30fps on any given resolution and then that will dictate what level of hardware was needed to maintain that frame-rate, but even then there are going to be other issues.....shading......polygon counts.....ray tracing.....etc....etc....etc.....

    At any rate, because people should not let games wash over them like the TV does, they should have to work a little bit at it. Giving them options to tweak is important as it does teach some degree of problem solving and process optimization that for many kids at least is important.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
  7. Two words: by Gothmolly · · Score: 4, Funny

    stu pid.
    So a level 5 PC will have a medium processor. What is this, D&D? And what happens next year when last year's "medium" is this year's "suck" chip? This whole thing strikes me as horribly condescending, although perhaps its the logical extension of the Intel/AMD/Cyrix "Performance Rating" stupidity. And if so, does Joe Sixpack DESERVE the condescension, for buying into the crap before? Either way, a static rating system for PC performance is instantly outdated the minute that its implemented. Geesh.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:Two words: by Dark+Lord+Seth · · Score: 5, Funny

      Your PC has gained 250 experience points!

      Level up! Your PC is now level 4!

      Your PC attacks Doom 3 ( level 9 ) with a bastard sword!

      Doom 3 attacks your PC ( level 4 ) with a Minigun with HE ammo!

      Your PC has died. (A)bort, (F)ail, (R)etry?

      --
      Hate me!
  8. True, and what's worse by Weaselmancer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I completely agree. And it would be even worse than that.

    Let's say that today, right now, the very best PC you can get is a level 10. Then, let's wait a year.

    See where I'm going? What'll next year's very best be? A level 11? The system will wind up looking like Spinal Tap's amplifiers.

    "No, mate. My PC goes to 11."

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  9. I already do this except my levels are in $ by ArsonSmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    a $500 computer will have a mid range processor and memory

    a $700 computer will be better

    a $1500 computer will be better still

    It even scales correctly as technologie comes out.

    --
    Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
  10. Operating System Levels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    If operating systems had levels:

    - Windows ME would run under the maximum negative value limit
    - Windows XP would probably be 2
    - Windows 2000 would probably be 2.5
    - Windows Server 2003 would probably be 3
    - Linux would probably be a 5
    - Mac OS X would probably be a 5.000001 just to piss off Linux people
    - *BSD would be a 10

  11. Time by glpierce · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wouldn't the date be far more informative than anything else? If you have a 3-year old computer, I can probably give you general spec ranges to which it conforms. Whether you say it's a "Level 5" or not, my first response will always be "when was it made?" The only way to counter this would be to keep on going up (today's level 3 is next year's level 13). There are a hundred other reasons why this is a poor idea, but I'll leave them to other posts.

    --
    G
  12. Apple by Zorilla · · Score: 4, Funny

    I thought Apple did this with the original iMacs and it seemed ridiculous then.

    "My Macintosh is grape!"

    Great.

    --

    It would be cool if it didn't suck.
  13. Levels, Jerry, LEVELS! by artemis67 · · Score: 4, Funny

    JERRY: You're doing this yourself?
    KRAMER: It's a simple job. Why, you don't think I can?
    JERRY: Oh, no. It's not that I don't think you can. I know that you can't, and I'm positive that you won't.

  14. The reason for this is by smartin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So that they can price their O/S based on the speed of hardware running it. I used run into vendors trying to do this back in my network management days. I remember asking one of them. "You want me to pay more for your software because I paid more for the hardware I run it on?" and he said "Sure, you will get more use out of our software.". I was still laughing at him as I shoved him out the door.

    --
    The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
  15. Levels for Joe User by Zorilla · · Score: 4, Funny

    Level 5 computer: Athlon 2400+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce FX 5200

    Level 3 computer: Athlon 2400+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce FX 5200, WeatherBug, CoolWebSearch

    Level 2 computer: Athlon 2400+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce FX 5200, WeatherBug, CoolWebSearch, Bonzi Buddy, ShopAtHomeSelect

    Level -1 computer: Athlon 2400+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce FX 5200, WeatherBug, CoolWebSearch, Bonzi Buddy, ShopAtHomeSelect, Claria, Alexa, Sasser, DiallerPlatform, MSBlast

    (Sorry, just cleaned someone's Compaq a couple days ago which was of similar specs. Over 400 instances of spyware in Ad-Aware and another 50 or so in Spybot)

    --

    It would be cool if it didn't suck.
  16. How about seven levels of users? by DrDebug · · Score: 4, Funny

    That way, we could match the user level to the level of the computer.

    Level 1 users (dweebs) would only use level one computers (toys).

    Level 7 users (gurus) would use level seven computers (supercomputers). ..... Ah, just a thought.....

  17. Remember who you are selling to by TiggertheMad · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Everybody seems to either be telling D&D jokes or flaming the idea. Keep in mind that most people that use computers are dumb as dirt on the topic. I worked at ChimpUSA in college, and it really opened my eyes. A very common question would involve someone shoving a new game at me and saying, 'I have a dell. Will this run?'.

    While several people have pointed out that a L8 video card will not make a L3 system into a L8 system, at least you have a baseline language to work with.

    I suspect they want this so software vendors can slap a sticker on a box that says 'Level 8' system required. It's not a perfect system, but it beats having ignorant sales people try to explain video card ram and HD seek times to Ma and Pa Kettle.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
  18. Leveling up! by dethl · · Score: 4, Funny

    Lv. 6 Dell attacks Lv. 3 HP, dealing 500 damage.
    Lv. 3 HP is DEAD!
    Dell gains 400 experience.
    HP dropped 5 gold.

    Dell has gained a level!
    RAM: +128MB
    Processor: +500mhz
    Graphics: +Nvidia 5200FX

    Ok, I had to do that. Karma burn ahoy!

    --
    "Some fight for law. Some fight for justice. What will you fight for? One day, you will see."
  19. My gaming rig by nsayer · · Score: 4, Funny

    I have a level 5 Athlon with a +2 video card of OpenGL and a +1 bank of memory. Unfortunately, I went to eBay and got saddled with a -3 sound card of Aureal.

    Time to play Doom 3. Roll 1d20.

  20. I've seen this before by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Funny
    Didn't somebody already describe the levels of computers with Windows installed? I thought it was Dante:

    Level 9: XP on a P4 3.2GHz, internet, SP2, behind Checkpoint firewall
    . . .
    Level 5: Win2K on a P4 1.7GHz, internet, SP4, no firewall
    . . .
    Level 1: Win95 on a Pentium I, internet connection, no patches, no firewall

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  21. Real Interviews by superpulpsicle · · Score: 4, Funny

    Interview with M$
    Q: What do you think is the future gaming PC?
    A: Level 1000 PC with virtual harddisk and super 3D engine. With games controlled with my nose.

    Interview with ATI and Nvidia
    Q: What do you think is the future gaming PC?
    A: I hope our drivers work.

  22. My PC... by tsm_sf · · Score: 4, Funny

    Mine goes to 11.

    Sorry, am I too late?

    --
    Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.