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After the X Prize

rscrawford writes "'Robert Bigelow, chief of Las Vegas-based Bigelow Aerospace, is apparently setting higher goals for private spaceflight endeavors with America's Space Prize, a $50 million race to build an orbital vehicle capable of carrying up to seven astronauts to an orbital outpost by the end of the decade,' according to Space.com. Anyone think it'll happen?"

28 of 275 comments (clear)

  1. Getting them up is the easy part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...it's getting them down in one piece that's difficult.

  2. Sure it will... by JoeLinux · · Score: 5, Funny

    A month after Duke Nukem: Forever goes Gold...

    1. Re:Sure it will... by Sheepdot · · Score: 5, Insightful
      "We're confident that DNF will be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, game of 1998. And this confidence is not misplaced." -Scott Miller, 1997

      "Duke Nukem Forever is a 1999 game and we think that timeframe matches very well with what we have planned for the game." - George Broussard, 1998

      "Trust us, Duke Nukem Forever will rock when it comes out next year." -Joe Siegler, 1999

      "When it's done in 2001." -2000 Christmas card

      "DNF will come out before Unreal 2." -George Broussard, 2001

      "If DNF is not out in 2001, something's very wrong." -George Broussard, 2001

      "DNF will come out before Doom 3." -George Broussard, 2002

      ...

      The Voyager 1 spacecraft has travelled approximately 2.5 billion miles since the announcement of Duke Nukem Forever.

      The rovers Spirit and Opportunity were proposed, authorized, announced, designed, launched and successfully landed upon Mars within the timeframe of Duke Nukem Forever's development.

      The majority of the children who were entering high school the school year following Duke Nukem Forever's announcement are now eligible to drink.

  3. Getting to LOE is hard by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Having something go up to the edge of space and back is relatively easy compared to going into orbit then coming back down again.

    For the technically minded, here's a short article with the specifics.

  4. More importantly: by MrDigital · · Score: 5, Funny

    Which members of nsync and backsteet boys are going to be on it?

    --
    In a digital world there can be only one..
    The one, the only, MrDigital.
  5. Seems very possible by cunniff · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Although the energetic requirements are an order of magnitude higher for orbital spaceflight, this $50 million prize is almost an order of magnitude higher than the $10 million X-prize. The economic payback seems higher as well, since there are lots more reasons (both reasearch and tourism) to go to orbit than there are in sub-orbital spaceflight.

  6. Thus fulfilling his lifelong dream to become by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Robert Bigelow, Astro-Gigalo.

  7. The problem is... by Silverlancer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That you're going to need a rocket big enough to get your spaceplane into orbit, but small enough to not have to be tossed off into the atmosphere every time. This is a *very* big problem.

  8. Seems possible to me by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Boeing Delta II rocket (one of the smallest we have) can launch about 4.9 metric tons into LEO, and goes for about 10 million per launch (IIRC). Its safety record over the past decade is such that it could probably be man rated. Now if you figure seven astronauts at 100 kilos each (these are BIG boys with their space suits! ;-)), then you've got about 700 kilos in cargo. If you can fit a useful craft in the remaining 4.2 metric tons, you'd have a very inexpensive launch solution.

    Perhaps something like this could be scaled down rather than a flyable craft? Although I am kind of partial to lifting bodies. Bring on the Dynasoar!

    1. Re:Seems possible to me by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Informative

      Looks like we need a new moderation category - "Understatment".

      (grin)

      Honestly, reentry isn't THAT bad. The shuttle has it particularly difficult because it's designed for a very shallow reentry angle. As I understand it, the military demanded a large cross-range ability so that the shuttle could go up, perform spy stuff over the USSR, and hit the ground again after one orbit.

      A steeper angle requires less shielding. The idea (as I understand it) is to accept a faster increase in heat buildup in exchange for a faster rate of deceleration. Once the craft is deep enough in the atmosphere and has shed enough speed, the atmosphere will actually begin to cool the surface.

      The Apollo missions used a simple and inexpensive shield that consisted of an ablative epoxy/silicon material. Such a shield could easily be made replaceable after every flight. The shuttle's tiles OTOH, are supposed to be non-ablative and reusable. However, the number of tiles that they ended up needing resulted in very expensive post-flight inspections.

      Honestly, the tech isn't that hard. The early space-modules were nothing more than some sheet metal, a space suit, a few maneuvering jets, and a heat shield. The early Mercury capsules even used a simple, non-ablative shock plate that pushed the atmospheric plasma around the edges of the capsule, preventing heating of the craft itself.

  9. Fact or opinion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Fact or opinion, John Carmack is a God.

    I call opinion. We won't have a definitive answer unless someone stabs him in the heart and he doesn't bleed.

    1. Re:Fact or opinion? by Minwee · · Score: 4, Funny

      If he did bleed, would the blood effects be rendered better on an ATI or nVidia card? Would there be realistic physics when he fell down? And would you need to switch from the knife to the flashlight before you could get the answers to these questions?

      Inquiring minds want to know.

  10. Is The Kitty Big Enough? by DanielMarkham · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think this is a great idea, but is the prize money enough? NASA should pony up another 50 mil -- they could use the help delivering supplies to the space station, and it's a no-lose proposition for them.

    Rutan has already talked about going orbital, and there is a lot of buzz about this subject from all sorts of people. It is a good time to be alive!

  11. More details by Gogo+Dodo · · Score: 4, Informative
  12. Re:NASA should enter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nothing as complex as the space shuttle is required to just get to an orbital complex and return with people. There are alot of people in the required spacecraft (7 vice 3), but both agencies have made simpler spacecraft that almost meet the requirements. Unfortunately for the X-Prize contestants, this prize would be many many times more difficult and would probably require a rocket and capsule idea (vice a very impressive airplane). The only reason I say this is because the difficulty in reentry (where a $50 million dollar prize isn't going to motivate people to spend $1 billion to be able to make an airplane reenter--like the space shuttle).

  13. Re:Hmmm by Aadomm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well I don't reckon it's beyond possibility certainly. If the X prize is won next week then the sponsorship boost from the publicity could be astronomical, especially if passengers start to be taken up.

    As for when people start dying, I reckon all the people likely to go up in the near future will be adults who are well aware of the risks they are taking and are more than happy to take their chances for the experience of flying into space. People die mountaineering, people die skiing. Lets try to keep some perspective.

    --
    Mention the Lord of the Rings one more time and I'll more than likely kill you.
  14. Re:Hmmm by cyber0ne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What happens when people start dying?

    They go to Heaven. Or possibly Hell.

    Seriously, what's the point of the question? People die in privately-funded adventures from time to time. But if they want to do it, that's their business. Perhaps they seek historical notariety, perhaps they look forward to possible commercial gains, or perhaps they just want that "extreme thrill" that nobody else has. Either way, it's their money/life, and it's not hurting anybody else, so it's their choice.

    --
    http://publicvoidlife.blogspot.com
  15. Re:Virgin by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I don't know about the privitization of this...I think it makes it too...hmm..what's the word - Republican.

    Should they not be allowed to do it? If scientific research were limited to government funded research facilities then it is likely that research would just become even more of a battleground for politics than it is now.

    At least consumers can decide whether or not this will continue, instead of voters. I would think that consumers would make a more educated decision, especially considering the cost of a ticket.

    --
    Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
  16. Rutan's on it... by mykepredko · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In the last interview I saw with Burt Rutan, he said that he's at the same stage on an orbital vehicle as he was for SS1 a few years ago. I seem to remember that he said that he was expecting to start construction in 2008/2009.

    What will be interesting to see if they can come up with a vehicle that could rendevous with the ISS; the orbit really was poorly chosen for jeverybody except for Russians.

    Reaching ISS could seriously be the next challenge.

    myke

    1. Re:Rutan's on it... by FatAlb3rt · · Score: 4, Informative

      actually, anyone at a latitude of 51.6 deg or less can easily reach ISS. latitudes greater than that have to waste propellant to decrease their inclination. since the russians are an integral part of the ISS assembly, the smallest inclination was chosen that would still allow them to reach orbit efficiently. otherwise, the station would most certainly be at a lower inclination to maximize the boost you get from the earth's rotational velocity.

  17. Re:Hmmm by VanillaCoke420 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People die in crashing cars, in sinking ships and crashing aeroplanes. It's unfortunate and tragic, but it does happen and it doesn't stop us from travelling by those means again. It does make us try to make it safer. Of course people will die in space. Do you honestly expect no accidents will happen? It must be as safe as possible, of course. But not so safe that we'll never fly (the safest way to do anything, is to not do it at all).

  18. Re:Hmmm by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That's exactly what happened with early Jet Liners. It didn't stop air travel then, and I doubt it would stop space travel now. It would pretty much have to be a possible setback that should be expected and planned for.

  19. Already Happened by reallocate · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's the Shuttle, of course.

    The trick isn't building such a spacecraft. That's been do-able since the 1960's. The trick is figuring out how to make a profit operating the damn thing.

    --
    -- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
  20. What the hell? by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why is everyone complaining about this prize? Oh no, earth orbit, it's too hard! Let's just take our X-prize, go home, and never launch again. Waah waah.

    WHAT THE HELL.

    If anyone on the planet would say "wonderful, now we've got an incentive to get to the next stage", I'd think it would be the people here on Slashdot - but all of a sudden it's too difficult to reach orbit, with a fifty million dollar budget, in half a decade?

    Did anyone really look at the X-prize and say "Oh, that's easy, no problem"? Then why are you looking at this and assuming it will be a problem? There's a lot of time to work on it and at least one group that's already a significant fraction of the way there.

    If you think it's hard, okay, sure, no argument, it's hard - but how many times have you learned something new by practicing easy stuff over and over again? It's an opportunity to invent some new low-cost fabrication and launching techniques. It's research. And possibly, it'll even lead to true commercial spaceflight.

    I think this is a fantastic turn of events. I can't wait to see who decides to tackle it.

    --
    Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
  21. Yes by ChiralSoftware · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The reason NASA has such a hard time doing this is because it's NASA. We know of a simple, cheap technology that can get big things into space: kerosene rockets. You just make a big one and it lifts stuff up. We know of a very complicated, expensive, dangerous technology that gets things into space (and back, in one piece) about 49 out of 50 times: the Space Shuttle. The Space Shuttle has hijacked America's manned space program since it got started in the early 80s and has been holding it back all that time.

    Really, the things holding us back from manned space exploration is lack of a reason to do it. If someone found out that you could manufacture CPUs that are twice as fast by doing it in zero-G, I'm sure Intel would have a space station within the decade. If you could make toothpaste that would get your teeth extra white while giving fresh breath that lasts for twelve hours by doing it in zero-G, P&G would have a space station within the decade. But none of these things are true. All the reasons for sending men into space mostly come down to "humans have an innate drive to explore", etc. It's true but that doesn't motivate investors to put together the many millions of dollars needed to do this. That's why governments do it: taxpayers have such low expectations of getting something in return for their tax dollars that governments can build space shuttles, the Big Dig, etc.

    Of course, pretty soon we will have to have more manned missions to Mars to figure out what's going on over at Union Aerospace's secret research facility.

  22. Getting people into orbit and back by multiplexo · · Score: 5, Insightful
    is difficult but not as difficult as NASA would like you to believe. Yes, a lot of work and complex technology is involved, on the other hand the Space Shuttle is about the worst way to solve this problem that could be developed. Imagine how much air travel would cost if every time you flew a 747 from New York to London you had to basically do a frame off rebuild of the aircraft, this is one of the reasons why the shuttle is so goddamned expensive. Of course this huge army of contractors costs a lot of money and the people who get these contracts like getting this money and don't have any incentive to develop something that would screw up this revenue stream.

    In the early 1990s research was done on quick turn around vehicles for low cost space access. Two very good articles by Dr. Jerry Pournelle are The SSX Concept and SSTO Revisited.

    You may or may not agree with Dr. Pournelle, I sure don't, on a lot of things, but he's spot on about what happened to the SSTO concept, NASA got control of it, let a contract out to Lockheed to develop the X-33, spent a whole bunch of money and didn't produce any real hardware unlike the SSX project which spent 60 million dollars and produced a prototype that was able to take off and land twice with a 26 hour turnaround with a support crew of 14 and which also managed to land safely after a hydrogen explosion tore off part of the aeroshell.

    --
    cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
  23. Seems extremely difficult with chemical rockets. by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Although the energetic requirements are an order of magnitude higher for orbital spaceflight, this $50 million prize is almost an order of magnitude higher than the $10 million X-prize. The economic payback seems higher as well, since there are lots more reasons (both reasearch and tourism) to go to orbit than there are in sub-orbital spaceflight.

    The problem is that the increase in difficulty is far, far greater than the increase in either energy or delta-v required seems to warrant at first glance.

    There are two regimes in which a rocket can operate. In one, the delta-v required for the mission is much lower than the exhaust velocity. In this scenario, fuel is only a small fraction of the total craft weight, and scales linearly with delta-v. This is the easy scenario, and it includes the X prize's "get a rocket to a relative altitude of 100 km".

    The second regime, the hard scenario, is the one in which the delta-v required for the mission is much higher than the exhaust velocity. In this scenario, the craft weight is dominated by fuel, and the fuel-to-everything-else ratio goes up exponentially with delta-v. Truly exponentially, not the "this is a quadratic but I'm calling it exponential" variety that I see so often around here. Craft design goes from "really hard" to "damn near impossible" to "outright impossible" very quickly.

    Ground-to-orbit is balanced right on the knife-edge of "really hard" and "damn near impossible", and that's only when we use multi-stage rockets. Reusable single-stage-to-orbit chemical rockets are well into the "damned near impossible" regime, even with the advanced composites we have now. If the earth was even a little heavier, we wouldn't be getting off of it with chemical rockets at _all_. Orbital velocity is about 8 km/sec, escape is 13 km/sec, and the highest-Isp chemical rockets have an exhaust velocity between 3 and 4 km/sec (with SS1 having one in the range of 2 or so).

    There are ways that you can make the hard scenario marginally easier. One is to use multi-stage rockets, though that's generally pretty much _assumed_ past a per-stage mass fraction of 5:1 to 10:1. Another is to use high-Isp chemical fuels - but these make your craft far more expensive due to handling concerns, and in the limiting case this can even be counterproductive (H2 is a lousy fuel for anything that launches from deep in the atmosphere or under a lot of acceleration, due to low storage density and large tank size). Another is to use as small a craft as possible to take advantage of stress scaling laws, but a) that means an upper-atmosphere launch instead of a ground launch, and b) your minimum cargo weight places a lower bound on the craft weight.

    The only realistic options for a 7-human manned craft are a big, expensive multi-stage chemical rocket with disposable boosters (because refurbishing to man-rated spec costs an insane amount of money), or an exotic craft with a high-Isp drive, to push the problem back into the "easy" regime. The only high-Isp craft we can build right now with the required thrust is one with a NERVA-style nuclear drive. A remotely laser-powered craft can work too, and we have a good idea how to build these, but full-scale engineering of these haven't been done yet. Orion is _too_ large scale, and would be even less popular than NERVA.

    So, I don't expect any vehicle-based solution to be easy to build or cheap enough to run to make the prize offered a significant attraction.

    A single-passenger craft would be much easier, due to reduced craft mass (materials scaling, again).

  24. More info on Bigelow inflatable modules by FleaPlus · · Score: 4, Informative

    The submission was a little sparse on the info, and since I've been following Bigelow Aerospace for a while, I feel obligated to share some more info on it. First off, there's an article with better photographs available here, and a press release here. The founder Robert Bigelow was also the founder of Budget Suites of America, and is applying a lot of the cost-cutting tricks he learned from his previous contracting experience to the aerospace industry. He licensed the Transhab technology from NASA (which had previously had its funding cut), and is subcontracting for things like life support from other companies who already have systems running.

    The inflatables themselves (photograph here)are quite interesting, with a docking mechanism designed to attach with either a Russian Soyuz, a Chinese Shenzhou, and/or whatever vehicle comes out of the aforementioned America's Space Prize. A one-third size prototype of the inflatable module will be launched on the maiden flight of SpaceX's Falcon V rocket, which is itself a very interesting vehicle (~3000kg into LEO for $12 million, and the first orbital vehicle designed to be man-rated since the space shuttle). The first full-size inflatable habitat will be up by 2008, and it's planned to have a crew by 2010.

    What's exciting about this is that the inflatable modules appear to be designed, built, and have undergone some preliminary tests. The outsides of the modules have withstood projectile impact tests fairly well. Pretty much all that needs to happen now is for them to undergo further tests and be launched. Bigelow's use of multiple contractors for the same part will allow him to ramp up production if there's a demand for it, and sell the inflatable modules for ~$100 million each to whoever wants them.

    Regarding the prize itself, I'd actually be quite interested to see if somebody ends up just designing a descent capsule and sticks it on a Falcon V.