Slashdot Mirror


3D Realms Buys Physics For Duke Nukem Forever

sp00 writes "In a press release, Meqon announces 3DRealms has purchased the Meqon Game Dynamics SDK engine for the upcoming title Duke Nukem Forever. There are some neat demos of the engine here. Is DNF finally a reality?"

76 comments

  1. Other News: by sithkhan · · Score: 5, Funny

    Pigs Fly.
    Hell Freezes Over.
    I get a date.

    --

    is it that bad seein a hot chick again? if i see a hot chick walkin down the hall i dont say "repost"
    1. Re:Other News: by bobbozzo · · Score: 2, Funny

      There is no Duke.

      --
      Nothing to see here; Move along.
    2. Re:Other News: by dougmc · · Score: 1
      I get a date.
      Hmm, Duke Nukem Forever was announced in 1996 (and supposed to be out later that year.) Since then, I've gotten married, had two kids, bought a house ...

      Hopefully It'll come out some time before I start drawing social security (if it's even still around ...)

    3. Re:Other News: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps if you quit reading the games section of slashdot your chances of getting a date would increase.

    4. Re:Other News: by fullmetal55 · · Score: 3, Funny

      no no no, it was never meant to be out the next year. It was all a y2k like bug. they idiotically type in the date 07 for the release date the program dropped the leading 0 and seeing a one digit year added 199 to the front, completely changing the intent of the date "7" which was of course meant to be 2007. so see they're still on track for a 2007 release!!

    5. Re:Other News: by Pluvius · · Score: 1

      I dunno if this is revisionist history or not, but the DNF that was hyped up way back in 1996 supposedly isn't the same DNF that we're talking about right now. The original DNF was third-person like the first Duke Nukem games, but was never finished. It might have inspired Duke Nukem: Manhattan Project, which came out some time ago. The DNF we all know and love, on the other hand, was started right near the beginning of 1998.

      Of course, it's not like that two years makes much of a difference when the seven-year anniversary of DNF's development comes this December.

      Rob

    6. Re:Other News: by Rew190 · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, DNF was always a FPS. I remember seeing the first screenshots for it (Quake 2 engine, I believe).

    7. Re:Other News: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bzzzt Kettle? This is Pot, over bzzt

  2. Heh by cjpez · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While not really knowing much about typical game development processes, I imagine that getting the SDK to your basic game engines would be some of the first steps you'd take before development. Wouldn't that imply that development on DNF, er, has yet to start? Or is being restarted again to use yet another new engine? Too funny.

    1. Re:Heh by cgenman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This doesn't appear to be a basic game engine, but rather a bolt-on physics and character animation module, Ala Havok. Buying one generally means that they have a game engine to attach it to, and have tried it out and liked it in-game. The rigid-body and ragdoll collision code on the last game I worked on didn't go in until about three months before the end of the project, as it wasn't integral to the gameplay. Very few FPS games have taken their physics model seriously as a gameplay element, and as such I'd (Id?) be surprised if DNF's gameplay had to be reworked for such a thing. If any other game licensed this engine today, I'd put them roughly 6 months from ship. Now with DNF, on the other hand, all bets are off. This won't be the first physics solution they have tried, and it may not be the last.

    2. Re:Heh by tc · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you don't bolt on your physics engine late in development, because physics affects so much of the gameplay. It needs to be integrated with the rest of your engine. Game and level design needs to take it into account.

    3. Re:Heh by cgenman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, but you don't bolt on your physics engine late in development, because physics affects so much of the gameplay. It needs to be integrated with the rest of your engine. Game and level design needs to take it into account.

      If you're talking 3rd party rigid body and ragdoll physics solutions, you're not talking about how far the character can jump, or gets blasted by rockets, or most of the other things one would normally associate with physics. You're talking about kicking around chairs and tables. In Doom 3 there are roughly four places where you can get bonuses by kicking rigid objects near other objects. Other than that it just serves to increase immersion and make explosions more fantastic... not to mention get in the way of the player and be annoying. The same was true with Max Payne, the hallmark of the Havoc engine: beautiful physical movements with little gameplay relevance. Even Deus Ex 2's physical model was functionally gratuitous, as the game would have worked just as well if the crates didn't have a coefficient of friction

      Actual freeform physics with gameplay relevance is pretty rare. 1: They are unpredictable 2: They are computationally expensive 3: QA will find a million ways to break it until you have to completely neuter the process. I don't mean to disagree with you... stronger physics engines allow for a tremendous amount of freedom for the player, and as such should be integral to the design rather than bolted on afterwards. But quite frankly, right now they're not.

    4. Re:Heh by mausmalone · · Score: 1
      Very few FPS games have taken their physics model seriously as a gameplay element, and as such I'd (Id?) be surprised if DNF's gameplay had to be reworked for such a thing.
      I'm sure it won't need that major of a re-tooling, but usually do-it-yourself physics and character animation engines have a way of being very pervasive in your code. It may take them a very long time to remove their own engine and then implement and test this one. IMHO, they'd be better off saving all their level data as it is, then building a totally new program at this point.
      --
      -=-=-=-=-=
      I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
    5. Re:Heh by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1
      Well it is not that rare, if you go out of the shooter field. Following titles instantly come to my mind.
      • The Ultima Underworlds
      • Both System Shocks
      • Deus Ex 1,2
      • Both Gothics
      • Arx Fatalis
      • The Thief Series as a classical example of
      • Also add to that most flight, car and whatever simulations
      gameplay relying on physics in gameplay is harder, because it opens the path to a freeform style of play. But the results for the player are much more rewarding in the sense, that the player does not feel locked in anymore. That is just from a players perspective not from a designers.
  3. No by PrvtBurrito · · Score: 5, Funny
    Is DNF finally a reality?

    No.

    --
    Laboratree - Scientific collaboration based on OpenSocial.
    1. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that physics engine from those pesky Swedes is a step towards the reality...

    2. Re:No by mog007 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I read an interview with some guy who's writing a book about the development of Half Life 2, and he said that after the physics engine was introduced to the Source engine everybody spent about a month making random machines to play with the physics. Valve is bad, but this is 3drealms, they'll get back to work in a year or so.

  4. Enginer by Silicon+Mike · · Score: 5, Funny

    The real question is how does the new engine interact with vapor?

    1. Re:Enginer by lscoughlin · · Score: 2, Funny

      The Vapor(tm) engine is infact the most advanced graphics engine you will never see. It is capable of interfacing cleanly with havok, and other physics engine, doing policy administration on a mainframe, slicing up julian fries, making toast and having sung hi lee brin you coffee in a cute little french maid outfit.

      Do not disturb the Vapor(tm), or it will smite you like the ragdoll you are!

      --
      Old truckers never die, they just get a new peterbilt
    2. Re:Enginer by Soul-Burn666 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Pretty damn well.
      Download the tech demo from the site in the story. And check Custom Elements -> Particles.

      --
      ^_^
    3. Re:Enginer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow, these demos are awesome. The cloth one is the most amazing to me. the boxes are always fun though, hah.

    4. Re:Enginer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was implying that Duke Nukem Forever is vaporware.

    5. Re:Enginer by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Somehow this post made me think someone should make a game titled "Vapor" exclusively for the Phantom...

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    6. Re:Enginer by Soul-Burn666 · · Score: 1

      Want even more fun?
      Go to data -> custom -> liquid.xml
      and play with the liquid attributes in the bottom.
      The default settings don't do the engine justice.

      --
      ^_^
  5. Upcoming by nick_davison · · Score: 5, Funny

    for the upcoming title Duke Nukem Forever

    Upcoming kind of implies that it's actually going to happen some day soon. As opposed to "the upcoming sun going supernova" - which is on about the same timescale as Duke Nukem Forever.

    1. Re:Upcoming by cephyn · · Score: 4, Funny

      4 hurricanes and now an upcoming unavoidable supernova?

      crap. Florida is going to be pissed...

      --
      Moo.
    2. Re:Upcoming by rev_sanchez · · Score: 1

      Wow, 3 Quakes and a DOOM 3 behind ID. Their progress is bad and they should feel bad.

      --
      If you didn't come to party don't bother knocking on my door. Prince '1999'
    3. Re:Upcoming by NSash · · Score: 2, Informative

      Upcoming kind of implies that it's actually going to happen some day soon. As opposed to "the upcoming sun going supernova" - which is on about the same timescale as Duke Nukem Forever.

      Our sun has insufficient mass to ever go supernova. In other words, you are absolutely correct. ;)

    4. Re:Upcoming by Soul-Burn666 · · Score: 1

      I don't know if the game is upcoming, but if it is, i'm pretty sure it'll go on suprnova (.org ;)

      --
      ^_^
    5. Re:Upcoming by rogabean · · Score: 1

      Ok I know this is a story from yesterday, but I can't resist... I live in Florida, you insensitive clod! (and I actually do)

      --
      "why don't you just slip into something more comfortable...like a coma!"
  6. DNF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    This is the abreviation used in a race to mean DID NOT FINISH

    1. Re:DNF by penfold5 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Announcer: Looks like that racer Duke Nukem Forever'ed! Thats gotta hurt!

  7. Breaking news... by badfrog · · Score: 5, Funny

    The most awaited game of 1998.....Just picked ANOTHER 3D engine to start the development cycle all over again with!

    1. Re:Breaking news... by Luigi30 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's not a 3D engine, it's a physics engine.

      --
      503 Sig Unavailable

      The Signature could not be accessed. Please try again later or contact the administrator
    2. Re:Breaking news... by Loco3KGT · · Score: 1

      Uh, are you in touch with reality?

      They chose a new physics engine. They did not choose a new renderer.

      For the love of God. Here's the words from the man himself:

      http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?id=8641514

      --
      Blessed be he who reads this post, Cursed be he who tells my boss.
    3. Re:Breaking news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you're not in touch with humor. Calm down.

    4. Re:Breaking news... by funklord · · Score: 1

      The proper term is "Elvish".

    5. Re:Breaking news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a 3D engine, it's a physics engine

      And how many dimensions do you think it computes physics in? One? Two? Or prehaps.... three?

    6. Re:Breaking news... by Luigi30 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it has no capacity to display said dimensions, only figure out what's going on in each one.

      --
      503 Sig Unavailable

      The Signature could not be accessed. Please try again later or contact the administrator
  8. My God by togofspookware · · Score: 3, Funny

    The engine demos are more fun than Doom 3.

    (well, unless you've bound some keys to spawn projectiles and chaingun ammo :D)

    --
    Duct tape, XML, democracy: Not doing the job? Use more.
    1. Re:My God by servognome · · Score: 1

      Bandwidth Limit Exceeded
      Definately more fun than Doom 3.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
  9. The DNF Timeline by ryder · · Score: 5, Funny

    Check it out! My Favorite bit: The rovers Spirit and Opportunity were proposed, authorized, announced, designed, launched and successfully landed upon Mars within the timeframe of Duke Nukem Forever's development.

  10. You can't do that! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For as long as this game has been in development I figured they'd be breaking the laws of physics instead.

  11. DNF and Half-Life 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I hate to flog a dead horse, but if, as one poster theorized, DNF is 3-6 months from release, it might actually make it out BEFORE HL2.

    Vapor vs. Vapor! It sounds like a bad Japanese monster movie.. >.>

    1. Re:DNF and Half-Life 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or southern black lesbian porn featuring grandmothers....

      I got the vapors...
      I got the vapors...

    2. Re:DNF and Half-Life 2 by I(rispee_I(reme · · Score: 1

      Oh, if I could only add you to my friends list for that.

  12. Re:Spirit and Opportunity by Anti_Climax · · Score: 4, Funny

    They'll probably make it back before it releases too...

    What's that? They aren't supposed to come back?

    Oh well, my original comment stands...

    --
    Even people that believe in pre-destiny look both ways before crossing the street.
  13. Another Engine???? by darthtrevino · · Score: 4, Funny
    Goodness! DK4EVA has gone through more engines than my uncle on his '66 mustang. Honestly..how about just get some guys to make the damn game with a good engine and get it the hell out there!

    There has to be like 3 people working on this game just laughing their asses off about it. It's going to be their life's work, like the statue of David, or the Sistine chapel. I mean, it's been in production for about a decade!

    1. Re:Another Engine???? by kaellinn18 · · Score: 1

      Which brings to mind a question: who the hell is funding this?!?

      --

      --------
      This isn't the sig you're looking for. Move along.
    2. Re:Another Engine???? by Llevar · · Score: 1
      It's going to be their life's work, like the statue of David, or the Sistine chapel.

      Since both were made by Michelangelo neither can really be called a life's work.

    3. Re:Another Engine???? by darthtrevino · · Score: 1

      touche

    4. Re:Another Engine???? by darthtrevino · · Score: 1

      That must mean that the grandeur, awesomeness, and beauty of DN4EVA is going to far surpass Michaelangelo's works. Michaelangelo is going to be in a corner crying like his heart out because everything he did was trash compared to DN4EVA.

  14. Just Announced by NickFusion · · Score: 1

    3DRealms has announced that Duke Nukem: Forever is going to be a launch title...for the Phantom.

    (Man...wouldn't that be sweet)

    --
    What were you expecting?
  15. And so he broketh the 6th seal... by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 0, Troll

    [insert witty picture of a half-naked Jehova's witness wearing a sign that sais "ALL IS LOST" with the dnF logo]

    --
    A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
  16. “We evaluated several physics SDK's" by JebuZ · · Score: 1

    "We evaluated several physics SDK's"...
    So that's what has been taking so long!

  17. Um, shouldn't a physics engine... by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    be one of the first things you get done in the game? I know, beating a dead horse and all... I gave up on DNF when the big headed morons took the Jetpack out because they didn't want to risk me missing one second of their fantastic level design. Here's a hint idiots, if it's that good, I'll go back and play it with and without the jetpack, like I did for the first Duke Nukem 3D.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  18. This Engine Vs Havok? by aliens · · Score: 1

    IIRC Havok is underlying FarCry & HL2, both seem amazing does this new contender offer some competition?

    --
    -- taking over the world, we are.
  19. hmmm by Foo2rama · · Score: 0, Redundant

    In a side note DNF will be the release title for the Phantom

    --


    ---In a time of Chimpanzees I was a Monkey.
  20. Delicious irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I know, I know, DNF almost certainly isn't going to see the light of day any time this side of 2010. If it does, it will almost certainly be a flop of Daikatana-like proportions.

    However...

    Wouldn't it just be wonderfully ironic if 3d Realms did actually pull a great game out of the hat. I mean, Duke Nukem 3d *was* good... in many ways better than Quake. I just wonder how the gaming press would feel if DNF were to come out in the next 6 months and blow everybody away? Remember how until last year, everybody thought Valve were just sitting around doing nothing, until the HL2 trailer appeared? Suddenly, Valve were hot again. And now we have... oh...

    Wait a moment...

    Let's not press that comparison too far, eh?

  21. Gish? by llevity · · Score: 1
    Check out Gish if you haven't. It's a game whose gameplay is pretty much solely physics based.

    You're a blob and you roll around the level collecting things in kind of your tradiional platform format.

    The different is you're affected by physics, so there is no standard platforming double jumping. If you want to jump higher, you have to bounce up and down a few times. You can cling to ceilings by making yourself more sticky, but gravity and how fast you're moving or changing directions can peel you off.

    Anyhow, it's a pretty nifty game where physics actually is more integral into the gameplay than making shotgun blasts to the chest throw bodies around.

    1. Re:Gish? by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Not only gish, the whole incredible machine series was developed around physics, also some of the games on garage games are developed around that concept. Looking glass relied heavily on physics in most of their games, also did origin in some Ultimas. Physics allow often some kind of freeform adventure style of gameplay where the developer only sets the problem but leaves it up entirely to the player on how to solve it. Perfect examples for this are the Thief games.

    2. Re:Gish? by llevity · · Score: 1
      True, I didn't even think about the Incredible Machines, but those are great examples. Unlike a lot of games that use physics as icing for the cake, IM couldn't be done without physics.

      Not doubting you, but I am curious how Thief is an example, though. I'd put it into the Max Payne category of just using physics as icing on the cake, rather than an important facet of gameplay. Maybe I'm not thinking about something, though.

    3. Re:Gish? by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Thief is an example in the regards of environmental sounds, water fire interaction and basically sort of freeform play by being able to dump anything onto a guard so that it becomes unconcoius.

      For instance the arrow system, you extinquish fire with water arrows which is an integral part of gameplay. Same goes for rope arrows. Also if you count physics you can move things around hide behind them, or use carpets to dampen your noise. Or if you throw something you can distract the gua rds by the noise it makes. Thief does not use extended physics, but things like noise, moving and dumping stuff, fire water reactions and so on as integral part of the gameplay.

      Id say Thief is the pefect example of the style of freeform physics allow. The designer just basically sets the situation and leaves it up to the player on how to solve them within a certain ruleset, which the implemented physics reaction limit.

  22. Well, that explains some of it... by llevity · · Score: 1
    A month just playing with the physics engine? That reminds me of the penny-arcade comic where they are shown sitting in a plane.

    "I just saw Gabe Newell up there in first class."

    "Oh? What's he doing?"

    "Not making HL2."

  23. Pigs CAN fly by Programmer_In_Traini · · Score: 1

    "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine."

    RFC 1925 2.(3)

    http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1925.html

    --
    If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
  24. Developer's Comments by Omega037 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    This was written by George Broussard, one of the game developers who actually appears on the 3DRealmsforums from time to time. It was a reply to comments made by posters in a thread about the physics engine.

    >>There must be considerable advantages to Megon over Karma for you to make the switch. What are they?

    IMO, Karma was first gen. Havok was second gen. Meqon is third gen. It's way way faster than Karma ever was, and it does more, and it's cleaner to use. I know Havok is working on next gen stuff now, but it's not available yet.

    >>A while ago, GB said all physics engines were basically the same. Did this change with the new generation of physics engines?

    At the time they were. That is no longer the case.

    >> Has the improvements in the physics engines "changed" DNF content?

    It will allow us to do more with physics and we will do what we can to make things cool.

    >> Rather than another switch, why not just build yer own damn physics engine?

    Physics engines are one of the hardest things to write, so it's best left to a middleware solution.

    >>I thought the DNF engine was done. Why are you guys messing with it now?

    The rendering has been done a long time. The physics we had have been in for 3 years. We had a ton of physics gameplay code on top of Karma. All we did was replace the low level stuff with Meqon and re-hook it up to our high level stuff.

    Why did we do it? Because Karma was too slow to do anything we were trying to do. I don't feel it was a shippable solution, and in fact very few game shipped with it, doing much more than ragdoll.

    This is a *very* good thing for the game.



    Given what I know about 3D Realms, they saw something they liked and got it. Nothing to do with game being released soon or starting over. More like a "we have money, it is pretty, let us add coolness to this game" type of decision. I wouldn't read too much into this, except that they will likely upgrade things if they feel there are better choices out there, even at the cost of added time.
    If I had to predict a release date, given that the basic engine is done and most of their work is on content(or so they claim, although recent hiring of new staff to work on content makes me think its true), I would say a mid to late 2006 release is within the realm of possibility. They totally started over from scratch about 3 years ago, so comparitively it hasn't really been in the works that long for a modern game. Besides, the work on the DNF project only began a year or two before work on HL2 did, and I don't HL2 out yet either :)

    PS: I know I'm a Apogee/3DRealms fanboy, you don't have to tell me!
    1. Re:Developer's Comments by Omega037 · · Score: 1

      Whoops, forgot the link: http://forums.3drealms.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php ?Cat=0&Number=686953&an=0&page=0#68695 3

    2. Re:Developer's Comments by blueZhift · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I can certainly buy the argument that physics engines are difficult to build. But the timing of this announcement makes me wonder if they were a little jealous of all the attention that other still not shipped game, HL2, has been getting. In any case, with the spectar of Daikatana still in everyone's memory, getting a good physics engine is a good thing.

    3. Re:Developer's Comments by WormholeFiend · · Score: 1

      as long as they keep the Duke Nukem elements we all loved in DN3D, I don't mind waiting Forever.

    4. Re:Developer's Comments by MarcoAtWork · · Score: 1

      IMO, Karma was first gen. Havok was second gen. Meqon is third gen. It's way way faster than Karma ever was, and it does more, and it's cleaner to use. I know Havok is working on next gen stuff now, but it's not available yet.

      emphasis mine: I guess this means that they're going to play with Meqon for the time being and when the new Havok engine comes out they'll switch once again :)

      The rendering has been done a long time.

      aka, when it finally comes out it's going to look like crap compared to games like Doom3 and HL2

      Why did we do it? Because Karma was too slow to do anything we were trying to do.

      so, they had a ton of physics gameplay code and at the same time he says the physics engine was too slow to do anything we were trying to do, hmmmmm, this does not compute...

      --
      -- the cake is a lie
  25. >> Is DNF finally a reality?

    >No.
    DNF is DNF. Or, can you be DNF if you are DNS?
    --
    Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
  26. They will change physics engines again... by JavaLord · · Score: 5, Funny

    The laws of Physics will change before this game comes out.

  27. Duke Nukem here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and I'm gettin' pissed off, all you nerds makin' fun of me and my game.

    Well it's time to kick a** or chew gum, and I'm all out...what, really, oh I didn't know...I've got plleenntty of gum!

    Later.

  28. To hell with Duke Nukem... by Further82 · · Score: 1

    I'm happy playing with this tech demo, never have I had my destructive impulses satisfied so completely without losing in Jenga or wrecking a sand castle. Now if they use this physics engine to create realistic jiggling boobies I'll be happy.

  29. Stop teasing people with DNF info by Monofilament · · Score: 1

    Its like the easter bunny and santa clause. They don't exist! 3dREALMS likes to perpetuate the myth just so they can hold onto a little bit of venture capital every so often. Also probably gives some sort of tax benefits by actually perpetuating that they are a company that does something.

    --


    Who makes you Sig?