Navy ELF to Be Scrapped

engywook writes "National Public Radio and The Daily Press of Ashland, Wisconsin (among others, I'm sure) are reporting that the US Navy plans to scrap the Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) system for communication with its fleet of nuclear submarines, both in Wisconsin and Michigan. The report states that the Navy no longer feels that ELF is necessary, and that they will now rely on 12 VLF systems. The system has been in operation since October 1989. The system has been protested nearly the whole time, both as a part of a Weapon of Mass Destruction and as a potential health hazard."

Comments

Superceded

[BWJones]

Well, lets see: The VLF was designed to get around Soviet technology and communicate with our subs so the Soviets could not listen in on our coded transmissions. If VLF works (who else has an equivalent submarine fleet?) and ELF harms mammalian sea life, then scrap ELF. Besides, tuned wavelength lasers from space and aircraft can communicate (at least in shallower depths) with subs and not have to worry about spreading sound waves around the planet for all to hear and try to decode. Also, lasers can carry much more information than you can with ELF or VLF and you don't have to worry about carrier waves and such either.

Also, having been on an earlier Australian sub (Oberon class), late model Australian submarine (Colins class), British submarine and several US subs, I might be tempted to say no other nation in the world can compete with the technology in the US subs. Everything else just buzzes through the water for all to hear while the latest Seawolf class is truly stunning with amazing amounts of technology layered upon layer that slips through the water with uncanny silence. Which brings up another issue: Why does the US need such a large submarine fleet? Perhaps to counter a possible naval conflict with China over Taiwan? I believe N. Korea has a few (ancient) subs...... More tactical boats perhaps would be prudent, but....

Re:Superceded

[TeraCo]

At last years naval exercises, Australia got a lot of flak from the US for beating them with our subs :) [Aussie aussie aussie!]

Re:Superceded

[Anonymous Coward]

The ELF system was designed so that it didn't have to rely on satellites or even the earth's atmosphere reflecting radio waves. ELF waves travel through the earth; the ELF system would be used in the even of a global nuclear war, so that if all other communications means go down, submarines can still be in contact naval command. A laser would be totally inappropriate for this; it needs line-of-sight to work.

Re:Superceded

[mikeophile]

The Earth's natural resonance is about 7.83 Hz, also known as the Schumann resonance.

There is evidence that this field is used by living cells as a timing frequency of sorts.

The powerful ELF and VLF transmissions are thought to "overdrive" cells, possibly leading to increased cancers.

I am also aware of anecdotal evidence of ELF waves "beaming messages" into the head of an individual.

However, since that person was wearing his underwear as a dew-rag, I am a bit sceptical on that one.

Re:Superceded

[DenDave]

Not to dis our buddies across the pond but this is normal in Nato. I remember a few years back when our tank crews in their ancient Leopards whooped yankee but and considering that their was a difference in the quality of equipement analog to the difference between a 747 and a stealth bomber... well you get the picture. It happened again with our M109 and M110 artillery units, which are understaffed undertrained and have a third of the gear of their counterparts. I personally think it has to do with mind set and experiences, our forces are underfunded and exhibit coping beaviour and just simply make-do whereas a US soldier is not even allowed to change the tire on his HMV without the proper certification.. As to ELF comms, I am curious whether VLF is without risks? As to laser well we read yesterday on slashdot about that Delta Pilot....

Re:Superceded

[rxmd]

Also, having been on an earlier Australian sub (Oberon class), late model Australian submarine (Colins class), British submarine and several US subs, I might be tempted to say no other nation in the world can compete with the technology in the US subs.

Apparently, you've never been on a German class 214 submarine, then. (Germany has a long tradition of building excellent submarines ever since World War 1.) They're built by HDW in Kiel with a diesel-electric drive and a fuel cell unit for long-term underwater operation. The fuel cell drive emits very little noise as well as no significant heat at all. For more information, see the section on the class 212 and 214 projects at naval-technology.com; as fas as non-nuclear subs are concerned, they're the most advanced boats on the planet as of now, and they're becoming an export hit, too.

Re:Superceded

[Anonymous Coward]

When we do exercises with foreign nationals, we have to mask our true sound signature, so as not to give away valuable data on HOW quiet we are, exactly what noises we normally make, and how best to detect us. Also, a submarine exercise where nobody can see anyone else isn't very good training - it's just driving around in circles. So sometimes we have to give away our position on purpose to get the show on the road.

That means we have to run all kinds of noisy gear that we normally don't (or only do when we're sure nobody is around) when non-US subs are about.

In addition, we frequently have "prospective" commanding officers play captain-for-a-day during the exercises to get some experience before we let them loose by themselves on a sub where, essentially, they're an absolute ruler.

The interesting thing is, we don't lose EVERY time, or even MOST of the time.

Re:Superceded

[svyyn]

I can't remember if there are 17, or 30.

There are currently 29 GPS satellites in orbit, 24 functional and 5 spares to be used as backups. They are in 6 12-hour orbits to ensure that there are at least 4 satellites available from every position on earth at all times.

Basically, in order to locate you in three dimensions, the GPS receiver needs to be able to see four satellites. (It's actually locating you in four dimensions: X, Y, Z, and time).

The satellites, however, not being in different times, cannot triangulate on your time, but instead assume that you are in the same time that they are in (A reasonable assumption). In fact, only three satellites are needed to triangulate on your 3-D position, but due to various atmospheric conditions that vary the amount of time for transmission, and therefore vary the distance estimates, a fourth satellite is always used for error checking. With four satellites, you have four combinations of three satellites, with each combination giving you a 3-space estimate. You can then average these four estimates to get a more correct position. The more satellites, the more pieces of information you can apply to the problem, and the more correct your estimate -- which is why seven is often the prefered number for most civilian applications. Even with seven, though, there are errors, so all data collected with GPS units should then be corrected by referencing it to a nearby base station with a known exact location on the earth's surface.

As for the other post that suggests the reason 3 can be used is because the system knows you are on the Earth's surface -- this assumption would be true if, 1) the system made such as assumption, and 2) the Earth's surface were smooth. Since the system locates the position of mountain climbers, forest rangers, cars on roads, and airplanes in the sky, neither assumption can be made.

In the Navy...

[kgbspy]

"Gaylord and I worked since 1972 together to try and end financing first for Project Sanguine and then ELF. The Navy would always whip us."

I see that nothing's changed in the Navy, then...

Re:Superceded - reality check

[waimate]

no other nation in the world can compete with the technology in the US subs

A quick reality check here. In 2003, a "noisy" Australian deisel boat sunk two US nuclear attack subs and an aircraft carrier during joint war games. The Dutch have done the same sort of thing. On a previous occasion, an Australian sub sat underneath a US carrier, inside the CBG cordon, and followed it around for some days. At the end of the exercise it surfaced next to the carrier to the horror and amazement of all involved.

The biggest danger the US navy faces is hubris my boy. That's the real thing you have to watch out for.

A.out?

[RTMFD]

Does this mean that the Navy will go back to creating a.out binaries and libraries? I thought they only ran Window$ on their ships....

Conspiracy Theories

[Baby Duck]

A lot of classic conspiracy theories revolve around ELF and VLF.

The basic recurring premise ranges anywhere from a single person to an entire town (Eugene, OR) being bombarded with V/ELF and studying the effects. The results are hardly "mass-destructive", but rather annoying: nosebleeds, headaches, premature arthritis, sore throats, unexplainable bruised, etc. Supposedly, a US official working in the US Embassy in Moscow contracted a fatal rare blood disease, and hidden V/ELF transmitter was found hidden in the walls, aiming right for his desk.

The theories allege the military and intelligence agencies were interested to see if purposefully exposing subjects would be effective as a form on mind control. I don't mean mind control in the literal sense where someone says "Go kill your neighbor" and the subject says ok and snaps to it. More like putting someone's mental state into disarray, hoping in the confusion the person would be more susceptible to suggestions and persuasive tactics.

These "experiments" flat out don't work. There's no science to back it up. But the point is someone with authority believed they could work and spent a lot of taxpayer money trying. And that's the real shame.

Please take this with a grain of salt. There's no need to go into a huge exposition trying to debunk these stories. You save it. I'm just repeating these unsubstantiated tidbits. Reports like these fueled many an X-Files episode. The producers/writers didn't come up with these things out of thin air. They're interesting to read. Not to "find out what happened", but to get an insight into the background stories X-Files sometimes use.

ELF/VLF

[Ramsey-07]

ELF, 30-3000 Hz VLF, 3-30 kHz Oh I'm sorry did all of you overlook the fact that the /entire/ country of USA, and most of the rest of the world is /dependant/ upon 50, 60 and *enter your countries standard here* hertz frequencies? They are emitted daily from antennas in your street or above your street, in and around your house completely covering your family like a big fudging faraday cage!! The earth terminals which save your life /and/ rid the household of static electricity sure as hell look like a mighty fine dipole to me! Especially when you multiply it by, oh, every house in the world with electricity. Lets take a look at a rather interesting report: http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw104732_20040 926.htm/ " CONTROVERSY: A federal judge in Wisconsin halted construction of the system in 1984, saying more environmental and health studies were needed. A federal appeals court in Chicago overturned that decision. The Navy said it spent more than $25 million to study the impact of ELF's electromagnetic fields, which were described as similar in nature and strength to those produced by power distribution lines. POLITICS: Within years after ELF was built, Wisconsin politicians, including U.S. Sens. Herb Kohl and Russ Feingold and the congressman who represented the Clam Lake area, Rep. Dave Obey, called for its closure."

Re:Superceded - reality check

[dotmax]

Nonsense. The us navy is painfully aware of the dangers posed by quiet -- be they ultra quieted SEAWOLF class nukes, DE's (diesel electrics) or the new generation of european AIP (Air Independant Propulsion) boats.

Oh, and there were 3 DE's, not one. Oh, and your "noisy" comment: a DE is only noisy while it's snorkeling. When she's on battery propulsion, she's as quieter than a nuke, generally speaking. Trust me, nobody in the US Navy thinks DEs are rattle buckets.

And the Navy knows, having been taught this lesson by its own submarine fleet, that a quiet boat is a fearsome, almost invincible enemy. The purpose of the excercise was to help the Navy figure out how to take out a DE operating in the littorals. It ain't easy.

The one and only reason the Collins's survived is because the engagement orders required the CVBG to enter into her backyard, where the DE's advantages were best put to use.

No one was surprised, only highly irritated.

The biggest danger to the navy is littoral DE and AIP submarine proliferation, mines, and high speed small boats packed with explosives, manned by the willing-to-die. The biggest danger to the navy isn't hubris, and frankly, i find the implication offensive.

from a former seawolf (SSN-575) sailor.

A good story about this

[DG]

I've got a good story 'bout this.

There's used to be an annual NATO tank competition called the "Canadian Army Trophy".

When the M1 first came out, it caused quite a stir, as it was far faster and quieter than had been expected. But the thermal sights also gave the Yanks a huge advantage on the pop-up target range.

It seems that the motors used to raise/lower the popups were hot enough to show up on the thermal sights, and the thermal load from raising a target made the motor glow hotter before the target was fully raised and visible. Accordingly, the M1 kicked ass on the popup range, and overall swept the competition.

The following year, the Canadians (who hosted the competition) placed a large number of thermal dummy motors out on the popup range - and the M1 placed miserably. They also adjusted their own tactics to deal with the M1's strengths, and soundly defeated the Yanks.

The lesson here is that while a technological advantage can indeed give you the upper hand, such an advantage is fleeting. Properly motivated and creative soldiers can devise ways to defeat your tech anvantage and can and will hand you your ass.

DG